Tough call. I really like grimgrin cause he's big, he's got a free sac for counters ability, and he can destroy things for counters so my gut instinct is to lean towards him. Also when it comes to targetted removal I place a high premium on unconditional removal since it always seems like those situations crop up where even though you can remove something, you can't hit the things you need to destroy. Still I guess it partially depends how much other removal you have and how many issues with nonblack creatures you have since grimgrin's removal aspect requires more setup.
Please keep keep the discussion respectful and on topic. If you disagree with other people's card options, be respectful when you voice your differing opinion. And if you do not like the tone of another user, report them rather than trolling them with a sarcastic response.
Shriekmaw is iffy. Unless youre running in a meta with a lot of creatures, I'd advise cutting etb creature removal down to Shadowborn Demon. In most cases, (especially my meta) there isn't too many single creatures that cause my issues. As of now, with tuck gone, I've been devoting more of the deck towards the turn sideways role and maintaining board. Draw and anything else needs to come along with it, as opposed to adding anything that focuses those ideas. I totally see Azami as being effective, but I think I'd bring back Dragonlord Silumgar over any other 5 cmc+ card on the bench. Stealing creatures seems to be more effective then killing them since so many decks run ways to grab back creatures, morbid triggers, and juice for delve. Stealing leaders is also a lot more effective now. The planeswalker effect is better than it first seems too. Pillowfort decks with a walker in them aren't usually prepared to lose their walker through their defenses and even less prepared to then face it. Two mind controls on sticks is certainly a meta choice, but I will certainly be looking into trying to use it more. I just remember getting him in under haste, grabbing karador and refusing to let him go because he couldn't find instant speed removal in time.
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
I'm not sure how I feel about Goblin Grenadiers, you'll have to tell us how he does. Personally I like venser. But if you want to cut him I'd question whether Goblin Grenadiers is an upgrade over Thalakos Deceiver. Yes, he hits a creature and a land but only if you can find a way to get him through unblocked, either via politics or an opponent without blockers at the wrong time. Deceiver on the other hand misses lands but can always get through unblocked and steals the creature permanently.
EDIT: Deceiver is also a non-human wizard, all the fun of wizardry without the drawback of no mikaeus protection.
Marchesa is a pure creature general.
So the goal for me personally is to get all the Spell effects on a stick.
The spells which remain are those effects which creatures do not have.( more tutors, mass bouncing f.e.)
Mostly you are only saccing in others peoples turns.
Grenadiers is simply fun and style. And if you get them in place, its always two for one.
-Skullclamp: no need to run blossom (that is good only on turn 2-3) to have it work because they are bad since the creatures they make don't come back. There are few exeptions though: Reef worm and chasm skulker that are beaters and have sinergies. Clamp wins games on her own simply because you draw into mana, into creatures/solutions and tutors.
Never thought it was bad, I've abused it way too much over my magic playing time to ever think that. My initial reaction was just unimpressed and I thought I could use the slot better with a mana rock to get into my threats faster. It's not far outside of my list though, maybe if some more playtesting shows someone not holding up their weight I'll replace them with it and give it another shot.
-Altars: they have to be in. In 99 cards I sometimes struggle with 10 (+4 exploit creatures -sidisi, faithful, aven, profaner- now that are good but not THAT good talking about sac effects): 2 altars, flash carver, viscera seer, grim-grin, goblin bombardment, diamond valley/miren, phyrexian tower, high market. And the thing someone said "they aren't creatures" it's a point of strenght to me. Creatures can come back BUT not if they are the enablers. Sac effects are the rarest type of cards in the deck and the real weak spot. I used to run before exploit with attrition and blasting station but they needed mana to activate and i was never happy to see them. One of the reasons sneak attack is so good here it's because cheating creaures in play for a Red is the best way to play like a green-based deck without the card disadvantage they usually create and have.
My problem here is two fold:
1) I really don't like sac'ing on my turn unless I have to or I'm going to get serious value out of it that makes it worthwhile. That's why I picked one mana altar and not two.
2) The first free sac effect you get is amazing, but the returns diminish rapidly for the second. You really only need one in play at a time, sometimes a second one adds more value but a lot of times it's unnecessary at that point. So I made some compromises just like the list at this post did, pick the best. I run Phyrexian Altar, High Market, Phyrexian Tower, Carrion Feeder, Falkenrath Aristocrat, and Grim-Grim, Corpse Born as my on demand free sac effects. In addition I have a number of triggered sac effects like the two exploit guys, Disciple of Bolas, Eldrazi Monument, etc. Those are great but can't be used for protection or regular ETB retriggering. If I had a Diamond Valley I would probably find a way to get it in. Miren, the Moaning Well I don't own either but I'm not a huge fan of it which is why I haven't. I get the life gain is great in a pinch but at 4 mana to sac its not really a regular use thing. I feel like personally I'd work in more card draw before sac effects, I feel comfortable with what I have there.
-Entomb: simply because you run living death doesn't mean it always get value since you struggle a lot to kill your opponent's creatures... just to see them come back? How about grave betrayal+ random sweeper? Aren't they more functional?
We're not running it for Living Death, we're running it for Anger. I'm just pointing out that it often proves pretty versatile.
-Thalakos deciever: it's good, very good. But Marchesa just doesn't care about politics since she attacks what she has to. This card draws A LOT of hate so, unless you wanna deal with 3 opponents on turn 4/5... just avoid that card.
Agree. And since it doesn't do anything on ETB and probably has to sit there for a turn, definitely not in love with it. I was just pointing out that if you are considering Goblin Grenadiers I feel like this card is an upgrade over that. But I don't feel a strong need to run either.
-Undercurrents: another way to get value from poor creatures simply with some drawing. CC5 is a lot but it's very useful in control tables where you have to slow your play, plus, having a opponent discarding some cards each turn is quite a thing and come handy especially if it's a control deck with removals, sweepers, countermagic...
I feel like you must play a lot more 1v1 then me. General countermagic isn't really something I encounter too often. Countermagic to protect/stop a combo win sure but regular use? Not really. And as for removal and sweepers, I have sac effects for StP like stuff and a general who naturally protects my guys for sweepers. Actually much more common in my games is graveyard shenanigans so its at least as likely that a given player will abuse the opportunity to discard a card of their choice then be upset about it. Idk its not bad but I don't think its better than a lot of other stuff I could be running. The number one to me is Consecrated Sphinx, I'm not running that either and I think I would run that way before undercurrents.
If you build this deck with a tutorable creature that does one thing (access to creatures in the grave for example with golgari thug) and a permanent that does the same (phyrexian reclamation), you'll have a very good list. Enchantments are the best kind of permanents in this format since 3 colors out of 5 can't deal with them (black, red, blue) and the other 2 have very few answers to them (krosan grip, aura shards, disenchant and stuff); artifacts, on the other hand, are heavily hated by red too (vandalblast, shatterstorm, shattering spree...) so less reliable. Enchantments are the way when possible and having dire undercurrents in the deck in addition to river kelpie/baleful strix/solemn simulacrum/skullclamp is the best thing possible.
That's a fair point on the enchantments. As for the tutorable creature effect, that's pretty much exactly what this list does. There was a lot of effort put in to find utility guys with specific effects that are tutorable on demand in a number of different ways. Honestly I think recursion on ETB is really the only major utility category that was missed. But honestly, my graveyard usually isn't that full and I kind of feel like the bit of recursion we have (plus the Volrath's Stronghold I added to mine) is enough.
No sides of the bed, just saying that your view of the deck can be expanded: if you're not up to it feel free to keep losing when you meet me in a mirror match on cockatrice simply because the cards you run are worse and maybe even your level of play.
Come on man, there's no need for this kind of aggressiveness. This is a friendly place, we're all here to discuss a deck we all enjoy playing and make it better. You have some good points but comments like this really undermine them. I'm willing to bet that of the people following this post a lot read just that and stopped because they assumed this was another hostile post. Just chill out, add your thoughts and let people discuss.
Kudos, CentralCommand, you have a great deal more patience than I do.
Back on topic: first, my meaning must've been misconstrued--I didn't mean to imply that I dislike Venser or think he's bad, by any stretch, I really only cut him to test something else in the slot. Second, I still think he's too slow to truly stop a tuned combo/control list (but that's okay, right? We're not trying to beat Hermit Druid, and a single Venser trigger isn't going to stop Azami, right?), so the argument that he can answer anything is relatively meaningless; he simply cannot stop a dedicated combo deck, because against tier 1 combo he's just one answer pitted against a deck full of answers or a combo setup too fast to disrupt. Third, I'm actually looking for a Thalakos Deceiver. My LGS doesn't have any so I'll have to make a trip elsewhere.
All that said, I will probably make room to put Venser back in. I played a game last night in which I could've cast Living Death with a stuffed graveyard to kill the whole table, but the blue player resolved a Rewind and it cost me the game. I had Sneak Attack in play and Sidisi, Undead Vizier in hand so I could've stopped the rewind easily if I was still running Venser.
So, as I said when I cut him, I'll slot him back in since I encountered a situation in which having him in the 99 would've meant winning a game instead of losing. At the end of the day, I think Venser's most important role is being able to protect our alpha strike, and secondarily he's a universal answer in a deck that largely lacks universal answers.
PS: Central's right, Spiritmonger. There is always a way to deliver your opinion respectfully. Please don't be so inconsiderate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Yeah, I have never seen him be an irrelevant card. When I think I don't need to hold him, I'll even cast him to start bouncing things to remain ahead on board and with something like Sage of Fables he almost becomes an offensive card. Tacking 3-4 damage onto a swing or adding to Marton's big attacks is very relevant.
Decided to try testing Flamerush Rider out just to see how he'd work. After mentioning how Marchesa doesn't have much an issue with creatures I realized how truly unthreatened I was by nearly every creature but Animar so I decided to slot out Shadowborn Demon. I feel like it's a dead end, but there have been a few powerful plays I've envisioned since his release. With Sidisi, Undead Vizier giving us a second tutor on legs, repeatedly cloning something has a lot of appeal, especially since Kiki can't copy Sidisi. Could be interesting to target her with a counter already on her and sac her instead of the token, and then sac the rider or another smaller creature to the token and then tutor again when sidisi returns. With how often I use Profaner of the Dead now cutting the demon seems wise and Flamerush Rider could give me access to a way to consistently clone it without losing creatures on board. Tokens seem to be my only real issue. I'm grinding my last week of the semester, so it'll be a bit before I can actually use him, but I figured I'd mention it since Dragons made him a lot more appealing.
Cloning Solemn Simulacrum or Burnished Hart seems like it could really put in some work. It just seems like a janky kiki jiki, which is by far one of the best cards in the deck. I'll wait and test before I make any calls though.
Cutting Shadowborn demon seems reasonable with profaner being a decent replacement.
Dire Undercurrentsis way worse than pretty much anything. Run Bident if you need more draw.
Entomb always has a target, if it's not anger its a creature set up for living death or necrotic ooze.
Had some great games this week with the deck. And for those who don't think sneak attack is worth it:
I had a dualcaster mage and kiki-jiki in hand with two red open. My board is otherwise empty. Pass the turn (it was turn 5 and a insanely slow hand.
The player next to me is playing Titania ramp. He cast a Genesis Wave for 10. I about die laughing.
I sneak in dualcaster and kiki copying dualcaster both targeting g wave. I slam 10 permanents for the first wave, resolve my triggers, then resolve next wave.
I hit a clone....
Resolve 3rd g wave, hit a clone..
4th......
5th I hit a Grey Merchant siphoning everyone for 24, which I can now sac and recur due to a Mikaeus I hit earlier.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I ran flamerush for a while but it was always something "more" and not a good card by itself. It heavily depends on what you already have but for sure it's better than the demon.
Exactly how I felt about flamerush. It sounds cool but I kind of feel like I'd be better off just adding another clone. Flamerush has too many conditions: 1) needs other creatures, 2) needs other creatures attacking, 3) can only clone your guys, 4) needs a sac effect for death triggers, 5) does not do attack triggers, etc. I think the question you have to ask yourself is will I really get more value out of this than just adding Phantasmal Image.
I don't particalurly love the demon either though. The big body is nice and its a strong ETB but I don't like forced sacrifice on my turn and it's probably not worth that.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I like Dragonlord Silumgar in the demon's spot. It's one more expensive but its not any more or less tutorable and I almost always prefer stealing over destroying, and with no upkeep cost. Plus it can also hit walkers which as others have pointed out is definitely a solid plus. I always find walkers really annoying since I can't get a dethrone trigger by attacking them so I'd appreciate another way of getting rid of them.
Do you think the "for as long as you control Dragonlord Silumgar" clause limits its effectiveness? It renders him kind of un-Sneak Attackable, does it not?
EDIT: speaking of Sneak Attack, I wouldn't even venture to say that I've ever underestimated it. In fact, it's the only card I've proxied for the deck. I don't own an Entomb either, but unlike Sneak Attack it isn't the sort of card I'm compelled to proxy for this deck. Luckily, it isn't legacy season so Sneak Attack is surprisingly affordable right now. I just got one online for $35 and I couldn't be more stoked. Happy day!
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
For creatures? No. It's sower on a bigger stick that's much harder for marath to shoot in response. (aside: man I hate that guy)
For walkers? yes. You're going to have to be careful when you choose to do that for sure because we don't have an easy way to sac permanents. Still its nice that its an option and there's definitely ways to get value out of it.
I think he's great. Mind Control honestly trumps all forms of removal, especially when you can offer that creature the protection Marchesa does. If Flamerush rider doesn't work out, I think he will find a permanent slot.
Hi guys. I've mentioned foiling my deck before and I've finally got around to taking some pics and sharing. This is how it's currently constructed. It's not a world beater, but wins its fair share in my meta and frequently takes the rest of the table ganging up to take it out.
Upgrades that I imagine doing some day:
-1 Terramorphic Expanse, +1 Mana Confluence
-1 Cabal Coffers, -1 Urborg, -1 basic swamp, +3 enemy fetches (no more X spells and I rarely find myself wanting Coffers mana)
-1 something-or-other, +1 Damnation (waiting for the Judge promo as I don't like the pack foil because the text box looks dirty to me)
You know, the more I think about it, the more I like Dragonlord Silumgar in the demon's spot. It's one more expensive but its not any more or less tutorable and I almost always prefer stealing over destroying, and with no upkeep cost. Plus it can also hit walkers which as others have pointed out is definitely a solid plus. I always find walkers really annoying since I can't get a dethrone trigger by attacking them so I'd appreciate another way of getting rid of them.
I have been running Dragonlord Silumgar and as much as I love him, he doesn't pull as much weight as when I first put him in. I'm tempted to try out his original form, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, because of the flying, hex proof, and the -1/-1 he gives the defending players. Pairing the original Silumgar and Scourge of the Throne while attacking two players also sounds like a fun thing to do. Either way, because of my play groups, I'll probably keep one of them in there. I'm trying to get a Drifting Death to test play.
Meant to reply to CentralCommand...I derped so it's edited to show the right quote.
Hi guys. I've mentioned foiling my deck before and I've finally got around to taking some pics and sharing. This is how it's currently constructed. It's not a world beater, but wins its fair share in my meta and frequently takes the rest of the table ganging up to take it out.
Upgrades that I imagine doing some day:
-1 Terramorphic Expanse, +1 Mana Confluence
-1 Cabal Coffers, -1 Urborg, -1 basic swamp, +3 enemy fetches (no more X spells and I rarely find myself wanting Coffers mana)
-1 something-or-other, +1 Damnation (waiting for the Judge promo as I don't like the pack foil because the text box looks dirty to me)
Looks nice man. Any chance you could post your decklist? Seems like you have a fair amount of differences.
Hi guys. I've mentioned foiling my deck before and I've finally got around to taking some pics and sharing. This is how it's currently constructed. It's not a world beater, but wins its fair share in my meta and frequently takes the rest of the table ganging up to take it out.
Upgrades that I imagine doing some day:
-1 Terramorphic Expanse, +1 Mana Confluence
-1 Cabal Coffers, -1 Urborg, -1 basic swamp, +3 enemy fetches (no more X spells and I rarely find myself wanting Coffers mana)
-1 something-or-other, +1 Damnation (waiting for the Judge promo as I don't like the pack foil because the text box looks dirty to me)
Looks nice man. Any chance you could post your decklist? Seems like you have a fair amount of differences.
Here's the list. TBH, I don't really think of it as all that different. We don't allow infinite combos in my meta, so I have none and don't have to protect against any. It's also all about turning guys sideways, so I have a little extra in the way of board control w/ Grave Pact/Dictate/Butcher.
How does Moriok Replica work for you? It was the most interesting card on your list I haven't tested. I ran Avalanche Riders for a while but it bought me too much hate cause there were never really any good utility lands to hit so he'd always just get a basic. Now I face a lot more troublesome lands like Shrine of Nyxos in mono green. Think its a worthy replacement for Fuliminator Mage til i get it? I remember getting him to really stick was rough.
Crystal Ball is really interesting too..I like my Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and used to run it for him. Maybe ill test it out again because honestly its more functional than top in this deck.
I always have a hard time letting go of Rift in my blue decks, even in this deck despite the fact that it's not a creature. Lim-Dûl's Vault, on the other hand, is a pretty solid scry engine that helps keep us off the throne. Any thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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1 Venser, Shaper Savant (just testing without him)
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Shriekmaw
1 Goblin Grenadiers
1 Necropotence
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
EDIT: Deceiver is also a non-human wizard, all the fun of wizardry without the drawback of no mikaeus protection.
So the goal for me personally is to get all the Spell effects on a stick.
The spells which remain are those effects which creatures do not have.( more tutors, mass bouncing f.e.)
Mostly you are only saccing in others peoples turns.
Grenadiers is simply fun and style. And if you get them in place, its always two for one.
Never thought it was bad, I've abused it way too much over my magic playing time to ever think that. My initial reaction was just unimpressed and I thought I could use the slot better with a mana rock to get into my threats faster. It's not far outside of my list though, maybe if some more playtesting shows someone not holding up their weight I'll replace them with it and give it another shot.
My problem here is two fold:
1) I really don't like sac'ing on my turn unless I have to or I'm going to get serious value out of it that makes it worthwhile. That's why I picked one mana altar and not two.
2) The first free sac effect you get is amazing, but the returns diminish rapidly for the second. You really only need one in play at a time, sometimes a second one adds more value but a lot of times it's unnecessary at that point. So I made some compromises just like the list at this post did, pick the best. I run Phyrexian Altar, High Market, Phyrexian Tower, Carrion Feeder, Falkenrath Aristocrat, and Grim-Grim, Corpse Born as my on demand free sac effects. In addition I have a number of triggered sac effects like the two exploit guys, Disciple of Bolas, Eldrazi Monument, etc. Those are great but can't be used for protection or regular ETB retriggering. If I had a Diamond Valley I would probably find a way to get it in. Miren, the Moaning Well I don't own either but I'm not a huge fan of it which is why I haven't. I get the life gain is great in a pinch but at 4 mana to sac its not really a regular use thing. I feel like personally I'd work in more card draw before sac effects, I feel comfortable with what I have there.
We're not running it for Living Death, we're running it for Anger. I'm just pointing out that it often proves pretty versatile.
Agree. And since it doesn't do anything on ETB and probably has to sit there for a turn, definitely not in love with it. I was just pointing out that if you are considering Goblin Grenadiers I feel like this card is an upgrade over that. But I don't feel a strong need to run either.
I feel like you must play a lot more 1v1 then me. General countermagic isn't really something I encounter too often. Countermagic to protect/stop a combo win sure but regular use? Not really. And as for removal and sweepers, I have sac effects for StP like stuff and a general who naturally protects my guys for sweepers. Actually much more common in my games is graveyard shenanigans so its at least as likely that a given player will abuse the opportunity to discard a card of their choice then be upset about it. Idk its not bad but I don't think its better than a lot of other stuff I could be running. The number one to me is Consecrated Sphinx, I'm not running that either and I think I would run that way before undercurrents.
That's a fair point on the enchantments. As for the tutorable creature effect, that's pretty much exactly what this list does. There was a lot of effort put in to find utility guys with specific effects that are tutorable on demand in a number of different ways. Honestly I think recursion on ETB is really the only major utility category that was missed. But honestly, my graveyard usually isn't that full and I kind of feel like the bit of recursion we have (plus the Volrath's Stronghold I added to mine) is enough.
Come on man, there's no need for this kind of aggressiveness. This is a friendly place, we're all here to discuss a deck we all enjoy playing and make it better. You have some good points but comments like this really undermine them. I'm willing to bet that of the people following this post a lot read just that and stopped because they assumed this was another hostile post. Just chill out, add your thoughts and let people discuss.
Back on topic: first, my meaning must've been misconstrued--I didn't mean to imply that I dislike Venser or think he's bad, by any stretch, I really only cut him to test something else in the slot. Second, I still think he's too slow to truly stop a tuned combo/control list (but that's okay, right? We're not trying to beat Hermit Druid, and a single Venser trigger isn't going to stop Azami, right?), so the argument that he can answer anything is relatively meaningless; he simply cannot stop a dedicated combo deck, because against tier 1 combo he's just one answer pitted against a deck full of answers or a combo setup too fast to disrupt. Third, I'm actually looking for a Thalakos Deceiver. My LGS doesn't have any so I'll have to make a trip elsewhere.
All that said, I will probably make room to put Venser back in. I played a game last night in which I could've cast Living Death with a stuffed graveyard to kill the whole table, but the blue player resolved a Rewind and it cost me the game. I had Sneak Attack in play and Sidisi, Undead Vizier in hand so I could've stopped the rewind easily if I was still running Venser.
So, as I said when I cut him, I'll slot him back in since I encountered a situation in which having him in the 99 would've meant winning a game instead of losing. At the end of the day, I think Venser's most important role is being able to protect our alpha strike, and secondarily he's a universal answer in a deck that largely lacks universal answers.
PS: Central's right, Spiritmonger. There is always a way to deliver your opinion respectfully. Please don't be so inconsiderate.
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Decided to try testing Flamerush Rider out just to see how he'd work. After mentioning how Marchesa doesn't have much an issue with creatures I realized how truly unthreatened I was by nearly every creature but Animar so I decided to slot out Shadowborn Demon. I feel like it's a dead end, but there have been a few powerful plays I've envisioned since his release. With Sidisi, Undead Vizier giving us a second tutor on legs, repeatedly cloning something has a lot of appeal, especially since Kiki can't copy Sidisi. Could be interesting to target her with a counter already on her and sac her instead of the token, and then sac the rider or another smaller creature to the token and then tutor again when sidisi returns. With how often I use Profaner of the Dead now cutting the demon seems wise and Flamerush Rider could give me access to a way to consistently clone it without losing creatures on board. Tokens seem to be my only real issue. I'm grinding my last week of the semester, so it'll be a bit before I can actually use him, but I figured I'd mention it since Dragons made him a lot more appealing.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Dire Undercurrentsis way worse than pretty much anything. Run Bident if you need more draw.
Entomb always has a target, if it's not anger its a creature set up for living death or necrotic ooze.
Had some great games this week with the deck. And for those who don't think sneak attack is worth it:
I had a dualcaster mage and kiki-jiki in hand with two red open. My board is otherwise empty. Pass the turn (it was turn 5 and a insanely slow hand.
The player next to me is playing Titania ramp. He cast a Genesis Wave for 10. I about die laughing.
I sneak in dualcaster and kiki copying dualcaster both targeting g wave. I slam 10 permanents for the first wave, resolve my triggers, then resolve next wave.
I hit a clone....
Resolve 3rd g wave, hit a clone..
4th......
5th I hit a Grey Merchant siphoning everyone for 24, which I can now sac and recur due to a Mikaeus I hit earlier.
That got out of hand fast
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Exactly how I felt about flamerush. It sounds cool but I kind of feel like I'd be better off just adding another clone. Flamerush has too many conditions: 1) needs other creatures, 2) needs other creatures attacking, 3) can only clone your guys, 4) needs a sac effect for death triggers, 5) does not do attack triggers, etc. I think the question you have to ask yourself is will I really get more value out of this than just adding Phantasmal Image.
I don't particalurly love the demon either though. The big body is nice and its a strong ETB but I don't like forced sacrifice on my turn and it's probably not worth that.
EDIT: speaking of Sneak Attack, I wouldn't even venture to say that I've ever underestimated it. In fact, it's the only card I've proxied for the deck. I don't own an Entomb either, but unlike Sneak Attack it isn't the sort of card I'm compelled to proxy for this deck. Luckily, it isn't legacy season so Sneak Attack is surprisingly affordable right now. I just got one online for $35 and I couldn't be more stoked. Happy day!
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
For walkers? yes. You're going to have to be careful when you choose to do that for sure because we don't have an easy way to sac permanents. Still its nice that its an option and there's definitely ways to get value out of it.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/204338-post-your-pimp-decks-here?comment=1288
Upgrades that I imagine doing some day:
-1 Terramorphic Expanse, +1 Mana Confluence
-1 Cabal Coffers, -1 Urborg, -1 basic swamp, +3 enemy fetches (no more X spells and I rarely find myself wanting Coffers mana)
-1 something-or-other, +1 Damnation (waiting for the Judge promo as I don't like the pack foil because the text box looks dirty to me)
I have been running Dragonlord Silumgar and as much as I love him, he doesn't pull as much weight as when I first put him in. I'm tempted to try out his original form, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, because of the flying, hex proof, and the -1/-1 he gives the defending players. Pairing the original Silumgar and Scourge of the Throne while attacking two players also sounds like a fun thing to do. Either way, because of my play groups, I'll probably keep one of them in there. I'm trying to get a Drifting Death to test play.
Meant to reply to CentralCommand...I derped so it's edited to show the right quote.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Looks nice man. Any chance you could post your decklist? Seems like you have a fair amount of differences.
Looks nice man. Any chance you could post your decklist? Seems like you have a fair amount of differences.
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Anger
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Baleful Strix
1 Burnished Hart
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Dack's Duplicate
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Filth
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Fleshwrither
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
1 Havengul Lich
1 Hex Parasite
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Marchesa, the Black Rose
1 Moriok Replica
1 Mulldrifter
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Nekrataal
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Profaner of the Dead
1 Sage of Fables
1 Scourge of the Throne
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Torch Fiend
1 Trinket Mage
1 Viscera Seer
1 Withered Wretch
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cabal Coffers
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Flamekin Village
1 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
4 Island
4 Mountain
1 Opal Palace
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Steam Vents
5 Swamp
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Volcanic Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Watery Grave
1 Wooded Foothills
Enchantments
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Grave Pact
1 Necropotence
1 Sneak Attack
1 Unspeakable Symbol
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crystal Ball
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Mana Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Sol Ring
Instants
1 Chaos Warp
1 Clutch of the Undercity
1 Mnemonic Nexus
Planeswalkers
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Living Death
1 Toxic Deluge
Crystal Ball is really interesting too..I like my Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and used to run it for him. Maybe ill test it out again because honestly its more functional than top in this deck.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
- Cyclonic Rift
- Lim-Dûl's Vault
I always have a hard time letting go of Rift in my blue decks, even in this deck despite the fact that it's not a creature. Lim-Dûl's Vault, on the other hand, is a pretty solid scry engine that helps keep us off the throne. Any thoughts?B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)