Haha funny story, I always search for cards as a deck is being built as opposed to order to keep that nostalgic feel from being a kid. Unspeakable Symbol had always been the card I was like THIS IS AWFUL when it was standard and would use it to make proxies so you can imagine how upsetting it was to see how effective it turned out to be. (I learned my lesson that any card can be good eventually) But anyways, i agreed to go to a comic store with a friend to look at some Star Wars boardgames for a weekend of drinking. They had a few boxes of junk cards hardly worth looking through. Then the clerk grabbed a pile of foils from behind the register. Amongst them were Unspeakable Symbol[/card, Tuk-Tuk Scrapper and a Tainted Peak, and a few foils I use in super casual modern decks. It just shows any collection can offer a commander player something worth a lot more than the price tag on the card.
Edit: I don't think I ever came across a Fleshwrither either. I don't think I've seen anyone who actually had a full boosters worth of cards from that set. I don't even think I've seen a boosters worth of cards in person.
I always search for cards as a deck is being built as opposed to order to keep that nostalgic feel from being a kid.
I like that idea. I need to find the patience to do that again. As is I usually just throw money at the problem.
I googled "Unspeakable Symbol foil" and clicked through every mom and pop shop for one that actually had it until I finally found one. Some joint in Florida and they hadn't raised their price yet. They actually had a half dozen if I remember correctly and I seriously thought about buying them all, but then I figured that surely some other Marchesa player would want one to pimp their deck with, so I just bought what I needed. Looks like they're sold out of them now though.
Reminds me, I should take some pictures of the deck this weekend for the pimp thread. My deck isn't 100% foil, but it is finally 100% of the available foils
Hey everyone, new here, I just discovered the wonders of marchesa and am trying to put together a deck. Since I didn't see it mentioned I was curious how you guys felt about Vulturous Aven from DTK. It's just a common but it seems to pack a punch and my experience at the prerelease basically confirmed that. It fits the tutor criteria (4 mana, 2 power) and it has a couple advantages over Disciple of Bolas: It's a much better creature (flyer and 3 toughness) and it can sac itself so it doesn't rely on anything else being out there. The disadvantages are: not a wizard, life loss instead of life gain (which is actually a bit of a toss-up given dethrone), and a cap on the number of card drawn.
Hey everyone, new here, I just discovered the wonders of marchesa and am trying to put together a deck. Since I didn't see it mentioned I was curious how you guys felt about Vulturous Aven from DTK. It's just a common but it seems to pack a punch and my experience at the prerelease basically confirmed that. It fits the tutor criteria (4 mana, 2 power) and it has a couple advantages over Disciple of Bolas: It's a much better creature (flyer and 3 toughness) and it can sac itself so it doesn't rely on anything else being out there. The disadvantages are: not a wizard, life loss instead of life gain (which is actually a bit of a toss-up given dethrone), and a cap on the number of card drawn.
Welcome! yea i completely overlooked that card, but I think when it comes down to it I'd probably rather run Youthful Scholar over it. I know it doesn't have evasion and is not a sac outlet, but the wizard thing is great, and the way i play the deck, i usually have no issues losing life. The aven looks like a very strong inclusion in a budget build, that's for sure.
Main things I'm eyeballing from dragons: Silumgar Sorcerer - Wizard, tutorable, flash, flying, counter creature, sac outlet. I'm amazed it isn't a rare honestly. Sidisi, Undead Vizier - Sac outlet and a recurrable tutor? Sign me up.
*Profaner of the Dead - Wizard, sac outlet, tutorable, one sided boardwipe?! This should be in every list, I'm not even joking. Cram it in there.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Main things I'm eyeballing from dragons: Silumgar Sorcerer - Wizard, tutorable, flash, flying, counter creature, sac outlet. I'm amazed it isn't a rare honestly. Sidisi, Undead Vizier - Sac outlet and a recurrable tutor? Sign me up.
*Profaner of the Dead - Wizard, sac outlet, tutorable, one sided boardwipe?! This should be in every list, I'm not even joking. Cram it in there.
I got my Sidisi and a promo foil Profaner and tucked them into the deck already! I can't wait to try them out.
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
Profaner was my prerelease special rare. Finally showed up yesterday and it's a house. Was cloning her with Kiki saccing itself to stay political and keep krenko under lock and later sacked a big grenzo to wipe the whole board and start to swing. Easily the best addition we'll see for a long time
So I have to ask, how are you getting counters on things? You obviously have plenty of sacrifice effects and very strong ETB effects so I can see how cycling nearly any creature in the deck would quickly become a serious problem for any opponent. But it seems like there's really only a couple ways to get counters on creatures outside of Marchesa herself and the few all-stars who can take care of their own counters: Unspeakable Symbol, Sage of Fables and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. If you include haste effects (since they allow you to dethrone right away) then you can add a few more: Sneak Attack, Anger, Flamekin Village, Urabrask, the Hidden and Puppeteer's Clique (sort of).
That's 7 total + 1 with a more specific use case. In 99 cards with surprisingly little tutor considering you are running black is that enough to reliably count on bringing your guys back whenever they die? In my playgroup the board is wrathed regularly, pretty much whenever things get a little out of hand for any one person. And that's on top of targetted removal. If I put down a dangerous creature on my table the idea of counting on him being there next turn to attack and de-throne someone is almost laughable.
Idk maybe I just need to make it and start playtestting. It seems like at the very least Cytoplast Manipulator warrants an include due to the completely broken interaction between Marchesa and graft, she meets every tutor criteria, she's a wizard and the added utility of occasionally stealing marchesa-protected things. I know she's been discussed to death but it still seems surprising to me.
Also couple other notes going through: Clutch of the Undercity - I get it and it's nifty how well you are using the 4 mana slot. But unless you actually play this card a lot and not just transmute it Demonic Tutor is just better. You seem to be avoiding staples a bit though so you could also go with Diabolic Intent instead to mix it up.
Your 3 least favorite duals - City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Cavern of Souls. Especially the last one with your wizard subtheme. Speaking of, do you use the creature aspect of Creeping Tar Pit and Lavaclaw Reaches enough to warrant the tapland inclusion? I mean I guess each creature counts in a Marton Stromgald rush but it seems a high price to be stuck with a tapland all the other times. Sage of Hours - Is he really better than a tutor? Or a Sensei's Divining Top? It's a neat trick with the Necrotic Ooze but idk, lot of setup. Phyrexian Obliterator - HOW IS THIS GUY FAIR! "Oh black got a 5/5 for 4, that's cool what's the drawbacks? Well he has trample, hm that block of text must really hurt then. Wait, he's also black's Academy Rector. Ummmmm..." No replacement, just admiring the ridiculousness of this guy.
I've never had an issue getting tokens on creatures. Entomb for haste or find Sneak Attack quick enough and its starts rolling. It is also unwise to drop a threat that cant come into haste anyways. If you want a variant with more haste, it could help. If you get board early enough (which this build does) they will need to wipe just to clear tokens off. So unless you get wiped twice its pretty hard to get rid of Marchesa's early board. The later game always finds haste. Exile is the only real threat, but odds are you can sac in response or have out a card like Spellskite or Goblin Flectomancer for spot removal.
Clutch of the Undercity You're gonna demonic tutor for something for four cmc 9 out of ten times. The actual spell can be useful to get rid of something pesky. Run scared and the new Sidisi are far better tutors too for they'll usually net you 2-3 cards. I can understand just running Demonic Tutor.
Sage of Hours I've tutored it with Unspeakable Symbol out for an extra turn to finish a table. Marchesa is a deck that can win with an additional turn as opposed to going infinite. Plus if you do deal with wraths a lot, it's not unreasonable to assemble a combo hes used in.
Clutch of the Undercity is a house in the deck. It can save any of our permanents and lower our life, get rid of a problematic permanent, and can transmute for like 30 percent of the deck or so. It has a ton of value in the deck honestly.
Creeping Tarpit regularly gets out of hand, sometimes getting up to a 7/6 or higher with marchesa out. It also dodges wraths like a champ. Lavaclaw Reaches is a good card as well, when you want a mana sink it can hit like a truck, even if it dies, as long as it had a counter, it'll come back.
Sage of Hours is a pet card of mine, and you'd be amazed how well he can work. Just the threat of taking extra turns make people deal with him, which limits removal on my other stuff. I've done funny things like a turn two sage that will get pathed, and ill drop a swamp into play on my next turn and follow up with Phyrexian Obliterator. The combo potential is real as well. Unspeakable symbol and sage means you can take most likely 2 turns in a row, which can pretty much hand you a game.
The great thing about the deck as a whole, is you can build it however you want, just adjust to your meta, my choices suit my play group best so far, while maintaining the "Fun but Strong" kind of mentality.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
So, now that tuck is no longer a consideration, any deck changes forthcoming? I think I'll probably be cutting Clutch of the Undercity since I rarely cast it, using it mostly for Transmute. Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither I will probably keep though, as a sac outlet and recurrable value engine respectively.
Clutch and chaos warp are still great cards, I usually use them for things other than commanders anyway. I'll probably keep them in until they print an artifact version of Aura Thief or print something better.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Main things I'm eyeballing from dragons: Silumgar Sorcerer - Wizard, tutorable, flash, flying, counter creature, sac outlet. I'm amazed it isn't a rare honestly. Sidisi, Undead Vizier - Sac outlet and a recurrable tutor? Sign me up.
*Profaner of the Dead - Wizard, sac outlet, tutorable, one sided boardwipe?! This should be in every list, I'm not even joking. Cram it in there.
Personally I'm going to replace Rune-Scarred Demon with Sidisi to lower my curve. Not sure yet what I'm doing for the other two, except they're definitely making their way into the deck.
I personally try to run no counters in my variation just because I've been a blue control player since I've been playing EDH and my friends needed a break so I don't think I'll test Silumgar Sorcerer but I've added it to a pile with stuff like Voidmage Prodigy if I ever wanna see if she can work control since some of the other exploits were neat.
As for cuts, I'm gonna try slotting out Puppeteer Clique simply because I always need to tutor Agent of Erebos over it and and sometimes I draw it and there isn't anything worthwhile. I figure Marchesa really doesn't want to have to sit on a 5 drop. The other was one not in this list, but that's only because I have a heart for goblins and have been running a few extra to make Goblin Matron feel like Imperial Recruiter. Hoping to find the money for one this summer.
On the chopping block for me are as follows: Graveborn Muse
Muse has been ok, but I think Sidisi for 1 more mana is just way more worth it.
Chaos Warp
After a bunch of deliberation, I figured running the Profaner in this slot would be a bit better, as we can get a massive tempo shift as opposed to getting rid of just 1 thing. With tucking generals no longer an issue, and voltron generals on the rise, I figured a tutorable boardwipe seemed like the most logical solution to me.
Thassa, God of the Sea
Thassa has been good, and I'm not completely sold on sorcerer yet, but he does have potential. I find it hard to actually make Thassa active in the deck, and very little have I used the unblockable aspect of her, so I might cut her from the deck. (It's a hard cut because I have a Thassa EDH deck completely foiled out. It's an obsession.)
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
^I agree with letting go of Chaos Warp and Thassa. I'd like to keep the Muse around.
Today I had my first experience of playing Marchesa :)) played against Prime Speaker Zegana (UG combos), Yisan the Wandering Bard (Elfball combo), Xenagos (SMASH!), Wort (BR Goblin Tribal), and Yasova (unoptimized, never was a problem)
Some of my games I was able to keep Prime Speaker from combo-ing with Venser; and Flayer of the Hatebound + Marchesa + sac outlet is nuts, allowing you to deal 9 damage at least per turn o.0 My games usually are closed out with a Jokulhaups, Obliterate or a big Death Cloud. :)) My only true competition is the ever so consistent Yisan deck; I only won against it when I drew and/or play an early Venser, Flayer or Profaner to keep his dorks in check. :)) Overall the deck is sweet; I'll try to post a decklist soon.
I had a stupid game where I went T1 land drop Carrion Feeder, T2 land drop Rakdos Signet, T3 Treasonous Ogre, pay 24 life, Spellskite and Flayer of the Hatebound... I pretty much control the board at that point. :))
Ya warp had been shifty for me. The only card I can really see it be used for is rest in peace and none of my metas run it. Also agree with trying to slot in sorcerer for it. I remember running an instant speed sac card so I guess it has its other uses
Thank you (theonecalledrune) for all your work on the thread and for everyone for all the great discussion in this thread.
That said I am wondering about the mana base and curve of your list. From my count your list has 35 4cmc or higher drops (excluding Clutch and Anger) as well as a 4 cmc general. With only Clutch of the Undercity to find Sneak Attack, I would imagine that in many games the deck would feel somewhat clunky as your deck doesn't start running really until you have 4 mana. Especially with your emphasis on 4 drops, wouldn't including more ramp cards such as Mana Crypt , Coldsteel Heart , perhaps even the Mirage diamonds be very beneficial in accelerating you to the crucial 4 mana bar. Cantrips (especially more cantripping creatures such as Alchemist's Apprentice ) could generate both some early game presence and a greater late-game. With regards to your mana base you have cards costing UU, RR, and BBBB by turn 4, which seems very ambitious in a 3 color deck. Have you encountered mana issues with respect to getting your colors?
I'm also wondering if there isn't something to be said for decreasing the versatility of the deck (by decreasing reliance on the 4 drop slot especially) to increase the amount of creatures that come down before Marchesa so that you can play Marchesa turn 4 and get some counters on your other creatures right away. Some cards I have used in my list to some good effect: Kira, Great Glass Spinner - if you have Marchesa and Kira out together your board becomes almost impossible to deal with, even if it does limit some interactions you can do this seems worth it. Hellraiser Goblin - in Marchesa you're attacking most games anyway and he gives haste to Marchesa. Goblin Rabblemaster - just seems like a great bomb with dethrone and is great on his own. Looter il-Kor - has shadow and loots, good early game play. Sage of Epityr - wizard and fixes your top 4, especially good as a recurring SDT in the late-game. Pestermite - combos with Kiki-Jiki and is also an evasive flyer. Shadowmage Infiltrator - drawing additional cards seems quite good Lightning Mauler - again haste on a creature is awesome here. Phantasmal Image is great for copying early value creatures and bombs late-game. Fire Covenant has been insane removal for me so far by both lowering your lifetotal and selectively wrathing someone's board. Spiketail Drakeling is also pretty good as an early-game counterspell to protect Marchesa. Vigean Graftmage also functions as protection. Boneshredder and Manic Vandal as extra removal. Pyreheart Wolf to push damage through and for undying synergy.
I know you've considered Bitterblossom before but it still seems like an amazing include here. Some of the unearth creatures can also have a place I feel because late-game they can set you up to be drawing every turn with Grim Haruspex and a sac outlet without needing an alternative way to get counters on them like Sage of Fables . For this purpose alone I think Rakdos Cackler can be a viable card, or something similar like Vigean Graftmage .
With more early game creatures cards like Coastal Piracy and Thassa's Bident also become much better and very powerful.
I can certainly see running more rocks if you are in a faster meta, or it is filled with lightning fast ramp. I actually seldom have problems getting color fixed, and usually curve out fine for the most part. It comes down to partialling well. Everything over 4 cmc I partial away for starts, then I look to make sure I have no dead cards in a particular match up. I don't suggest running bad creatures like Alchemist's Apprentice because "early game presence" means absolutely nothing in this deck. Hitting someone for 1 or 2 by turn 3 is just going to turn Marchesa off for them, which you do not want to do. It's different if you hit them with a Pain Seer because you can get some cards from his trigger.
I had kira in the list before, she was decent, but I found just playing around removal was just as good, and with tuck now not an issue, marchesa is even stronger. Hellraiser Goblin is quite suicidal, sometimes I'll reserve creatures on the defense with a counter so I don't die to a monstrous Rafiq of the Many and the like. Goblin Rabblemaster is a great card, and I definitely could see playing it if I had one.
Looter and sage are low impact, but decent, I could see budget builds utilizing these quite well. Pestermite I don't run any instant Kiki combos as a gentleman's agreement. Combos need to be 3+ pieces.
Infiltrator I can see running, just haven't ordered one. Probably very effective in the deck. Lightning Mauler I feel like I always have a haste enabler already, so I feel this is unneeded. Phantasmal Image I think that I have enough clone variants in the list honestly, and with all the triggers in a game it would explode instantly. Fire Covenant that's a pretty sweet piece of tech! I like that you can burn down big dudes, a board of weenies, or just to set your life. I could definitely see running it.
Spiketail, Graftmage, Shredder, Wolf are all fairly low impact to devote slots to. Just personal opinion.
I took Bitterblossom out a while back, you can look through my changelog for reasoning for that one, I don't quite remember.
Cackler is next to no impact, and all the loot on hit effects like piracy and bident are solid includes if thats the direction you want to go.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
How about Cabal Coffers? Yes it is very clearly disgusting with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. But without that card in play can you even count it as a land drop? Lets stretch a bit here and say fetches are swamps since they can get them, including those there are 10 swamps in the entire deck. You need at least 3 in play to even count the coffers as a land. There is only one card in the entire deck that can tutor them, Tolaria West. Maybe I'm wrong but it just seems like out of the times you draw coffers that odds that you'll also have urborg or you'll have enough swamps to matter AND no one will have a Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge or any of the other shoe-in lands people put in for exactly this reason is really small. Not to mention the fact that you really want red mana and you probably are not using all your fetches on swamps.
I feel like a piece of artifact ramp, an Ancient Tomb, a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or a normal land would all be better uses of that spot. Also if you want to abuse Urborg, Crypt Ghast seems like a much better way to do so. It's a 4 mana 2/2 creature (very tutorable), it's just as degenerate with urborg out, you can keep making your colored mana and get extra black too, and it still works well in low swamp count situations since doesn't require a minimum amount of swamps to work. It also can provide some handy emergency lifegain with extort which can definitely be clutch sometimes. I can't recommend cutting coffers for ghast though since you only have 35 lands as it is so you'd have to find something else.
I just feel like given the deck numbers counting coffers as a land is wishful thinking and you'd be better off with a more reliable source of colored mana or ramp.
About Cabal Coffers and something Rune brought up before I agree with now. Sneak Attack is the pinnacle of the deck and it's honestly best to invest in red sources over black, even if there's no foreseeable way to get it out with your opening hand. Getting two black by turn three for Phyrexian Arena is obviously important, but landing the two B while getting red mana is pretty easy and is usually sufficient enough for most games. Even when focusing black mana, Cabal Coffers can still be a dead land if drawn early on and is always thrown away in opening hand, which is not something you want to have to do. The deck has a really nice curve that reliably generates a threatening board by turn 6-7. You really want that to be the go-to plan for each game.
About Cabal Coffers and something Rune brought up before I agree with now. Sneak Attack is the pinnacle of the deck and it's honestly best to invest in red sources over black, even if there's no foreseeable way to get it out with your opening hand. Getting two black by turn three for Phyrexian Arena is obviously important, but landing the two B while getting red mana is pretty easy and is usually sufficient enough for most games. Even when focusing black mana, Cabal Coffers can still be a dead land if drawn early on and is always thrown away in opening hand, which is not something you want to have to do. The deck has a really nice curve that reliably generates a threatening board by turn 6-7. You really want that to be the go-to plan for each game.
^This
I've even thought about running Magus of the Moon For the alpha strike with sneak attack. Red mana is important, and black devotion is important. Quite a conundrum eh? Land destruction isn't too prevalent in my meta, and urborgs are not uncommon. Coffers pulls it's weight in gold more often then not, so I don't foresee cutting it.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Ya, unfortunately my meta doesn't run much black. however, a friend of mine I've helped construct an edh deck with confirmed he has four copies, so maybe I'll give it a run again.
On another note, has anyone else seen how impactful profaner of the dead or the new sidisi has been? Both have already proven to pull more than weight I expected, which was already a lot. Also testing the red akroma and she's been pretty neat. Kind of like a cooler tuk tuk. If anyone else has a white blue issue in their meta, she's very helpful, especially if you do the focusing red source method
I haven't gotten my hands on the new Sidisi, but the profaner has indeed pulled his weight. I'm hoping to get a Sidisi this Thursday at our shop's EDH night and try her out. not sure exactly what to cut yet, but I'll find something.
Also, it may just be my meta, but the new Silumgar has proven his worth too. A big ole flyer who when played right has stolen some very important cards. One of the best was stealing someone's Jace the Mind Sculptor. I can say I owned a Mind Sculptor by proxy now...and for that I'm happy. But, Silumgar may just be decent in my meta, just like how Desecration Demon is good in my meta for a tutor-able flying blocker (or a sac-able critter if they have me tap it.)
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Edit: I don't think I ever came across a Fleshwrither either. I don't think I've seen anyone who actually had a full boosters worth of cards from that set. I don't even think I've seen a boosters worth of cards in person.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
I like that idea. I need to find the patience to do that again. As is I usually just throw money at the problem.
I googled "Unspeakable Symbol foil" and clicked through every mom and pop shop for one that actually had it until I finally found one. Some joint in Florida and they hadn't raised their price yet. They actually had a half dozen if I remember correctly and I seriously thought about buying them all, but then I figured that surely some other Marchesa player would want one to pimp their deck with, so I just bought what I needed. Looks like they're sold out of them now though.
Reminds me, I should take some pictures of the deck this weekend for the pimp thread. My deck isn't 100% foil, but it is finally 100% of the available foils
Welcome! yea i completely overlooked that card, but I think when it comes down to it I'd probably rather run Youthful Scholar over it. I know it doesn't have evasion and is not a sac outlet, but the wizard thing is great, and the way i play the deck, i usually have no issues losing life. The aven looks like a very strong inclusion in a budget build, that's for sure.
Main things I'm eyeballing from dragons:
Silumgar Sorcerer - Wizard, tutorable, flash, flying, counter creature, sac outlet. I'm amazed it isn't a rare honestly.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - Sac outlet and a recurrable tutor? Sign me up.
*Profaner of the Dead - Wizard, sac outlet, tutorable, one sided boardwipe?! This should be in every list, I'm not even joking. Cram it in there.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I got my Sidisi and a promo foil Profaner and tucked them into the deck already! I can't wait to try them out.
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
So I have to ask, how are you getting counters on things? You obviously have plenty of sacrifice effects and very strong ETB effects so I can see how cycling nearly any creature in the deck would quickly become a serious problem for any opponent. But it seems like there's really only a couple ways to get counters on creatures outside of Marchesa herself and the few all-stars who can take care of their own counters: Unspeakable Symbol, Sage of Fables and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. If you include haste effects (since they allow you to dethrone right away) then you can add a few more: Sneak Attack, Anger, Flamekin Village, Urabrask, the Hidden and Puppeteer's Clique (sort of).
That's 7 total + 1 with a more specific use case. In 99 cards with surprisingly little tutor considering you are running black is that enough to reliably count on bringing your guys back whenever they die? In my playgroup the board is wrathed regularly, pretty much whenever things get a little out of hand for any one person. And that's on top of targetted removal. If I put down a dangerous creature on my table the idea of counting on him being there next turn to attack and de-throne someone is almost laughable.
Idk maybe I just need to make it and start playtestting. It seems like at the very least Cytoplast Manipulator warrants an include due to the completely broken interaction between Marchesa and graft, she meets every tutor criteria, she's a wizard and the added utility of occasionally stealing marchesa-protected things. I know she's been discussed to death but it still seems surprising to me.
Also couple other notes going through:
Clutch of the Undercity - I get it and it's nifty how well you are using the 4 mana slot. But unless you actually play this card a lot and not just transmute it Demonic Tutor is just better. You seem to be avoiding staples a bit though so you could also go with Diabolic Intent instead to mix it up.
Your 3 least favorite duals - City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Cavern of Souls. Especially the last one with your wizard subtheme. Speaking of, do you use the creature aspect of Creeping Tar Pit and Lavaclaw Reaches enough to warrant the tapland inclusion? I mean I guess each creature counts in a Marton Stromgald rush but it seems a high price to be stuck with a tapland all the other times.
Sage of Hours - Is he really better than a tutor? Or a Sensei's Divining Top? It's a neat trick with the Necrotic Ooze but idk, lot of setup.
Phyrexian Obliterator - HOW IS THIS GUY FAIR! "Oh black got a 5/5 for 4, that's cool what's the drawbacks? Well he has trample, hm that block of text must really hurt then. Wait, he's also black's Academy Rector. Ummmmm..." No replacement, just admiring the ridiculousness of this guy.
Clutch of the Undercity You're gonna demonic tutor for something for four cmc 9 out of ten times. The actual spell can be useful to get rid of something pesky. Run scared and the new Sidisi are far better tutors too for they'll usually net you 2-3 cards. I can understand just running Demonic Tutor.
Sage of Hours I've tutored it with Unspeakable Symbol out for an extra turn to finish a table. Marchesa is a deck that can win with an additional turn as opposed to going infinite. Plus if you do deal with wraths a lot, it's not unreasonable to assemble a combo hes used in.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Cytoplast Manipulator is an ok card for the deck, but I found Sower of Temptation to be better almost all the time.
Clutch of the Undercity is a house in the deck. It can save any of our permanents and lower our life, get rid of a problematic permanent, and can transmute for like 30 percent of the deck or so. It has a ton of value in the deck honestly.
Creeping Tarpit regularly gets out of hand, sometimes getting up to a 7/6 or higher with marchesa out. It also dodges wraths like a champ. Lavaclaw Reaches is a good card as well, when you want a mana sink it can hit like a truck, even if it dies, as long as it had a counter, it'll come back.
Sage of Hours is a pet card of mine, and you'd be amazed how well he can work. Just the threat of taking extra turns make people deal with him, which limits removal on my other stuff. I've done funny things like a turn two sage that will get pathed, and ill drop a swamp into play on my next turn and follow up with Phyrexian Obliterator. The combo potential is real as well. Unspeakable symbol and sage means you can take most likely 2 turns in a row, which can pretty much hand you a game.
The great thing about the deck as a whole, is you can build it however you want, just adjust to your meta, my choices suit my play group best so far, while maintaining the "Fun but Strong" kind of mentality.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
So what's on the chopping block?
Level 1 Judge
As for cuts, I'm gonna try slotting out Puppeteer Clique simply because I always need to tutor Agent of Erebos over it and and sometimes I draw it and there isn't anything worthwhile. I figure Marchesa really doesn't want to have to sit on a 5 drop. The other was one not in this list, but that's only because I have a heart for goblins and have been running a few extra to make Goblin Matron feel like Imperial Recruiter. Hoping to find the money for one this summer.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Graveborn Muse
Muse has been ok, but I think Sidisi for 1 more mana is just way more worth it.
Chaos Warp
After a bunch of deliberation, I figured running the Profaner in this slot would be a bit better, as we can get a massive tempo shift as opposed to getting rid of just 1 thing. With tucking generals no longer an issue, and voltron generals on the rise, I figured a tutorable boardwipe seemed like the most logical solution to me.
Thassa, God of the Sea
Thassa has been good, and I'm not completely sold on sorcerer yet, but he does have potential. I find it hard to actually make Thassa active in the deck, and very little have I used the unblockable aspect of her, so I might cut her from the deck. (It's a hard cut because I have a Thassa EDH deck completely foiled out. It's an obsession.)
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Today I had my first experience of playing Marchesa :)) played against Prime Speaker Zegana (UG combos), Yisan the Wandering Bard (Elfball combo), Xenagos (SMASH!), Wort (BR Goblin Tribal), and Yasova (unoptimized, never was a problem)
Some of my games I was able to keep Prime Speaker from combo-ing with Venser; and Flayer of the Hatebound + Marchesa + sac outlet is nuts, allowing you to deal 9 damage at least per turn o.0 My games usually are closed out with a Jokulhaups, Obliterate or a big Death Cloud. :)) My only true competition is the ever so consistent Yisan deck; I only won against it when I drew and/or play an early Venser, Flayer or Profaner to keep his dorks in check. :)) Overall the deck is sweet; I'll try to post a decklist soon.
I had a stupid game where I went T1 land drop Carrion Feeder, T2 land drop Rakdos Signet, T3 Treasonous Ogre, pay 24 life, Spellskite and Flayer of the Hatebound... I pretty much control the board at that point. :))
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
That said I am wondering about the mana base and curve of your list. From my count your list has 35 4cmc or higher drops (excluding Clutch and Anger) as well as a 4 cmc general. With only Clutch of the Undercity to find Sneak Attack, I would imagine that in many games the deck would feel somewhat clunky as your deck doesn't start running really until you have 4 mana. Especially with your emphasis on 4 drops, wouldn't including more ramp cards such as Mana Crypt , Coldsteel Heart , perhaps even the Mirage diamonds be very beneficial in accelerating you to the crucial 4 mana bar. Cantrips (especially more cantripping creatures such as Alchemist's Apprentice ) could generate both some early game presence and a greater late-game. With regards to your mana base you have cards costing UU, RR, and BBBB by turn 4, which seems very ambitious in a 3 color deck. Have you encountered mana issues with respect to getting your colors?
I'm also wondering if there isn't something to be said for decreasing the versatility of the deck (by decreasing reliance on the 4 drop slot especially) to increase the amount of creatures that come down before Marchesa so that you can play Marchesa turn 4 and get some counters on your other creatures right away. Some cards I have used in my list to some good effect:
Kira, Great Glass Spinner - if you have Marchesa and Kira out together your board becomes almost impossible to deal with, even if it does limit some interactions you can do this seems worth it.
Hellraiser Goblin - in Marchesa you're attacking most games anyway and he gives haste to Marchesa.
Goblin Rabblemaster - just seems like a great bomb with dethrone and is great on his own.
Looter il-Kor - has shadow and loots, good early game play.
Sage of Epityr - wizard and fixes your top 4, especially good as a recurring SDT in the late-game.
Pestermite - combos with Kiki-Jiki and is also an evasive flyer.
Shadowmage Infiltrator - drawing additional cards seems quite good
Lightning Mauler - again haste on a creature is awesome here.
Phantasmal Image is great for copying early value creatures and bombs late-game.
Fire Covenant has been insane removal for me so far by both lowering your lifetotal and selectively wrathing someone's board.
Spiketail Drakeling is also pretty good as an early-game counterspell to protect Marchesa.
Vigean Graftmage also functions as protection.
Boneshredder and Manic Vandal as extra removal.
Pyreheart Wolf to push damage through and for undying synergy.
I know you've considered Bitterblossom before but it still seems like an amazing include here. Some of the unearth creatures can also have a place I feel because late-game they can set you up to be drawing every turn with Grim Haruspex and a sac outlet without needing an alternative way to get counters on them like Sage of Fables . For this purpose alone I think Rakdos Cackler can be a viable card, or something similar like Vigean Graftmage .
With more early game creatures cards like Coastal Piracy and Thassa's Bident also become much better and very powerful.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
I had kira in the list before, she was decent, but I found just playing around removal was just as good, and with tuck now not an issue, marchesa is even stronger.
Hellraiser Goblin is quite suicidal, sometimes I'll reserve creatures on the defense with a counter so I don't die to a monstrous Rafiq of the Many and the like.
Goblin Rabblemaster is a great card, and I definitely could see playing it if I had one.
Looter and sage are low impact, but decent, I could see budget builds utilizing these quite well.
Pestermite I don't run any instant Kiki combos as a gentleman's agreement. Combos need to be 3+ pieces.
Infiltrator I can see running, just haven't ordered one. Probably very effective in the deck.
Lightning Mauler I feel like I always have a haste enabler already, so I feel this is unneeded.
Phantasmal Image I think that I have enough clone variants in the list honestly, and with all the triggers in a game it would explode instantly.
Fire Covenant that's a pretty sweet piece of tech! I like that you can burn down big dudes, a board of weenies, or just to set your life. I could definitely see running it.
Spiketail, Graftmage, Shredder, Wolf are all fairly low impact to devote slots to. Just personal opinion.
I took Bitterblossom out a while back, you can look through my changelog for reasoning for that one, I don't quite remember.
Cackler is next to no impact, and all the loot on hit effects like piracy and bident are solid includes if thats the direction you want to go.
Hope this helps you
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I feel like a piece of artifact ramp, an Ancient Tomb, a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or a normal land would all be better uses of that spot. Also if you want to abuse Urborg, Crypt Ghast seems like a much better way to do so. It's a 4 mana 2/2 creature (very tutorable), it's just as degenerate with urborg out, you can keep making your colored mana and get extra black too, and it still works well in low swamp count situations since doesn't require a minimum amount of swamps to work. It also can provide some handy emergency lifegain with extort which can definitely be clutch sometimes. I can't recommend cutting coffers for ghast though since you only have 35 lands as it is so you'd have to find something else.
I just feel like given the deck numbers counting coffers as a land is wishful thinking and you'd be better off with a more reliable source of colored mana or ramp.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
^This
I've even thought about running Magus of the Moon For the alpha strike with sneak attack. Red mana is important, and black devotion is important. Quite a conundrum eh? Land destruction isn't too prevalent in my meta, and urborgs are not uncommon. Coffers pulls it's weight in gold more often then not, so I don't foresee cutting it.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
On another note, has anyone else seen how impactful profaner of the dead or the new sidisi has been? Both have already proven to pull more than weight I expected, which was already a lot. Also testing the red akroma and she's been pretty neat. Kind of like a cooler tuk tuk. If anyone else has a white blue issue in their meta, she's very helpful, especially if you do the focusing red source method
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Also, it may just be my meta, but the new Silumgar has proven his worth too. A big ole flyer who when played right has stolen some very important cards. One of the best was stealing someone's Jace the Mind Sculptor. I can say I owned a Mind Sculptor by proxy now...and for that I'm happy. But, Silumgar may just be decent in my meta, just like how Desecration Demon is good in my meta for a tutor-able flying blocker (or a sac-able critter if they have me tap it.)