Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
I think Mairsil is a less desirable version of Necrotic Ooze. Portal Mage only has a useful ETB one time, unless you're able to flicker it or make token copies of it all the time during the declare attacker's step. It's a Human, so Mikaeus doesn't touch it. I don't think either has a slot.
So as of me writing this post only one new card remains to be spoiled and there aren't many Wizards that would be interesting for Marchesa. Most of the Wizards are about Instants, Sorceries and getting card advantage somehow. I guessed this would happen, wizards just aren't a super aggressiv tribe like vampires.
Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
I think Mairsil is a less desirable version of Necrotic Ooze. Portal Mage only has a useful ETB one time, unless you're able to flicker it or make token copies of it all the time during the declare attacker's step. It's a Human, so Mikaeus doesn't touch it. I don't think either has a slot.
I guess he's Gate Mage now, sorry about that, what I get for going off unconfirmed spoilers. And what you said was also the same arguments I myself used for a while with Dualcaster Mage. Then one day I decided to give him a shot and realized I was completely wrong. Cheap wizards with built in flash and strong disruptive ETBs are excellent. Not everything needs to be marchesa-able. Besides we have clones, we have sneak attack, we have feldon, just because marchesa can't loop his ETB doesn't mean we won't use it again. And if we do it will probably be completely out of left field and game-changing, that's how its been every time I cloned dualcaster at instant speed to the surprise of all my opponents.
I'm not saying this guy is a shoe-in. But I think he's definitely worth considering. It's simply is that ETB disruptive enough. Definitely think there's a lot of opportunities where I would be glad to have it.
I don't think you'll very frequently want to/need to attack someone and then use it to get around Ghostly Prison/Propaganda in order to attack someone else or re-direct one attacker away from you (in which case it's basically just Maze of Ith). It doesn't seem very useful.
Venser becomes capsize + a bear for 5 with inalla, and sneak attack can make it 2 mana. I think she is incredibly strong in our deck. That is just 1 example of obsurd things we can do.
Is that a good enough argument though? Lots of things are absurd with sneak attack and venser. What I don't like is that this 5 mana creature is a vanilla 4/5. And only when combined with other cards in our deck does she start to bring value to the table. She'll have a target on her head too as soon as she's there, everyone knows were a deck of valuetown ETBs. If someone plows her then we wasted a whole turn.
Plus, she has to copy two things to be better then just putting another clone in our deck. So realistically, how often will she be better then a clone?
There's no harm in trying her out I suppose I'm just skeptical.
I don't think you'll very frequently want to/need to attack someone and then use it to get around Ghostly Prison/Propaganda in order to attack someone else or re-direct one attacker away from you (in which case it's basically just Maze of Ith). It doesn't seem very useful.
If ghostly prison and propaganda are actually a problem for us then this guy doesn't help at all. The attack trigger has passed, we already attacked the wrong person. And redirecting one attacker away from you when they aren't expecting it could be totally game-changing if it buys you another turn. That's a very valid use case although not enough of one to justify including him.
The main use case I was thinking of was removal. Take an attacking creature and redirect him to the guy that can kill it. That seems like the primary way he would be used. But there's lots of situational ones. The ones you presented are some, others off the top of my head:
Redirecting our guy to a planeswalker or player near death after getting our dethrone trigger
Redirecting someone we need alive (ours or an opponents) after some surprise has occurred (flash creature, instant, etc.)
Redirecting a creature to us to save someone when absolutely necessary or just get our life lower for dethrone
Redirecting a creature to someone with No Mercy out
Maybe its not good enough since it doesn't combo with anything in our deck like Dualcaster Mage does. But I bet it wouldn't be a dead draw.
All of that seems extremely narrow. It's functionally going to be two things: 1) avoid paying the Ghostly Prison tax to punch the pillowfort player in the face once 2) Maze of Ith something. I don't really distinguish between Maze of Ith removing it from combat and just swapping it to someone else. You could accomplish the "hey! how you you deal with this thing!" without upsetting that player and without playing a strange card solely by talking politics with them.
Even if you could abuse it through Sneak Attack and clones, I'm not convinced it's even an effect that's worth abusing. Dualcaster Mage is an effect that's worth abusing.
Vindictive Lich is good and I definitely recommend cutting Treasure Keeper if your lists feel that this new card is better.
Also, I have some questions on a card that some of you may run. That card is Chasm Skulker.
How good is it in your lists? I'm thinking of trying out a very similar card in Hangarback Walker but with a few key differences. The reason I was thinking about it is because Genesis Chamber is actually quite strong in the affinity build.
A) You don't get a "free" add-on +1/+1 counter in your draw steps to go with the counter from dethrone. You also don't get counters for drawing cards
B) However, the tokens are flying thopter artifacts and you do get modular synergy. It also on average costs 1cmc less.
C) Unlike Chasm Skulker, when this thing dies it doesn't come back.
It is very likely that I'm cutting one of my six drops for this card if it is worthy of inclusion.
Vindictive Lich is good and I definitely recommend cutting Treasure Keeper if your lists feel that this new card is better.
Also, I have some questions on a card that some of you may run. That card is Chasm Skulker.
How good is it in your lists? I'm thinking of trying out a very similar card in Hangarback Walker but with a few key differences. The reason I was thinking about it is because Genesis Chamber is actually quite strong in the affinity build.
A) You don't get a "free" add-on +1/+1 counter in your draw steps to go with the counter from dethrone. You also don't get counters for drawing cards
B) However, the tokens are flying thopter artifacts and you do get modular synergy. It also on average costs 1cmc less.
C) Unlike Chasm Skulker, when this thing dies it doesn't come back.
It is very likely that I'm cutting one of my six drops for this card if it is worthy of inclusion.
I think you answered your own question about Chasm Skulker.. Namely with the easier and cheaper +1/+1 counters and that you can recur it. Though, someone else can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.
I believe treasure keeper is the cut for the new lich as well.
Chasm skulker >>>>>>>>>>>>>hangarback
Inalla is better then a clone in my opinion. The worst is you have a 4/5, the best is you living death for double your graveyard. The limit is sky high and she has to be answered.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Thanks for the opinions. I think my next add will be Phyrexian Revoker in any case. It solves problems that my removal suite wouldn't otherwise be able to handle.
So what do you all think about Shifting Shadow? Seems like a nice card for this deck as it gives haste and card advantage and a "sac outlet" to reuse etb triggers. It has the usual problems that auras have, can be an easy 2-for-1, but it's cheap and has so much potential!
Vindictive Lich is good and I definitely recommend cutting Treasure Keeper if your lists feel that this new card is better.
Also, I have some questions on a card that some of you may run. That card is Chasm Skulker.
How good is it in your lists? I'm thinking of trying out a very similar card in Hangarback Walker but with a few key differences. The reason I was thinking about it is because Genesis Chamber is actually quite strong in the affinity build.
A) You don't get a "free" add-on +1/+1 counter in your draw steps to go with the counter from dethrone. You also don't get counters for drawing cards
B) However, the tokens are flying thopter artifacts and you do get modular synergy. It also on average costs 1cmc less.
C) Unlike Chasm Skulker, when this thing dies it doesn't come back.
It is very likely that I'm cutting one of my six drops for this card if it is worthy of inclusion.
I like Chasm Skulker, he does for my aggro version; not sure how he'd do for your combo version. I want to go wide as soon as possible, as that when I swing with a Dethrone trigger, my force's power multiplies very quickly. After all, if he dies as a 5/5, I get 4 1/1s with Islandwalk that quickly double in power. That being said, I cut him because I was making room to test another 3 drop and I haven't noticed his absence. I'm sure there are cards that you've cut or if you haven't drawn in a while that you ask yourself 'Man, why haven't they shown up?' Chasm Skulker, on the face, looks like something we want but in practice isn't worth including.
So what do you all think about Shifting Shadow? Seems like a nice card for this deck as it gives haste and card advantage and a "sac outlet" to reuse etb triggers. It has the usual problems that auras have, can be an easy 2-for-1, but it's cheap and has so much potential!
I thought your find here is very clever, so I went through my list looking for a cut when I saw that I already run Deathrender. Deathrender, is expensive, I consider it to be one of my 6 drops but it does a similar job than Shifting Shadow. Even with double the cost and a more vulnerable type (Artifact vs Enchantment), I like Deathrender more. While its great that Shifting Shadow digs for another threat while Deathrender requires you to have one in hand, I think there's too much Creature removal and you've incentivized someone to 2-for-1 you.
I think it's funny, definitely playable but with the antagonistic approach Marchesa has at the table, you can't run cute cards because the table is out to disrupt you.
Herald of Seven Servants seems like a no-brainer must include. 3 mana creature that makes our whole team unblockable? Um. Yes. Ruin Raider - Basically a 3 mana dark confidant that gives me a card the turn I play him. Seems strong. Not a wizard sadly and depends on his power but eye is caught. Hostage Taker - Costs 4 but wow that's fun. Exile something until he's gone and a way to make it permanent by casting it yourself? Excellent
Arcane Adaptation - Man I really want to play this thing naming wizards. Its cheap but its not a creature and does nothing by itself. Unsure, worth considering though. Ogre Fleet Ravager - It costs 5 so questionable but it definitely hits the table with a boom. 1/3 life gone from all players. Seems like something an aggro deck could enjoy. Menace and deathtouch make it pretty hard to justify blocking. And its a wizard. Aegriah's Marauders - 5 mana has to be a wincon right? Gratuitous Violence on a stick seems like it should probably qualify.
Maybe I'm getting a little overeager since these are unconfirmed. But if true, wow that was an exciting leak.
I'm personally only interested in Herald of Seven Servants and Ruin Raider. I just have no clue what to cut, my Marchesa feels 'complete' aside from buying ABUR Duals or something. There are a few other cards I'd like to test but they're $20+ for me and I'm not willing to shell out for that as a test card.
Aegriah's Marauders seems like it could replace Flayer of the Hatebound but damn do I like Flayer's reach when I got a sac outlet and can proceed to grind people out of the game.
Hostage Taker seems horribly broken. If you have some way to abuse etbs, it instantly wins the game. This guy + Purphoros, God of the Forge is a really easy win. Typically, with this type of card, it says "another target permanent" like Oblivion Ring, but this one does not, allowing you to have Hostage Taker target itself, an infinite amount of times in a single turn.
Even without being able to do this, it seems like a solid card to play in this deck.
Hostage Taker seems horribly broken. If you have some way to abuse etbs, it instantly wins the game. This guy + Purphoros, God of the Forge is a really easy win. Typically, with this type of card, it says "another target permanent" like Oblivion Ring, but this one does not, allowing you to have Hostage Taker target itself, an infinite amount of times in a single turn.
Even without being able to do this, it seems like a solid card to play in this deck.
It's a repeat of the Saheeli-Cat mistake. Someone (or many someones) in R&D aren't paying attention to the words they put on cards.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
I think Mairsil is a less desirable version of Necrotic Ooze. Portal Mage only has a useful ETB one time, unless you're able to flicker it or make token copies of it all the time during the declare attacker's step. It's a Human, so Mikaeus doesn't touch it. I don't think either has a slot.
I guess he's Gate Mage now, sorry about that, what I get for going off unconfirmed spoilers. And what you said was also the same arguments I myself used for a while with Dualcaster Mage. Then one day I decided to give him a shot and realized I was completely wrong. Cheap wizards with built in flash and strong disruptive ETBs are excellent. Not everything needs to be marchesa-able. Besides we have clones, we have sneak attack, we have feldon, just because marchesa can't loop his ETB doesn't mean we won't use it again. And if we do it will probably be completely out of left field and game-changing, that's how its been every time I cloned dualcaster at instant speed to the surprise of all my opponents.
I'm not saying this guy is a shoe-in. But I think he's definitely worth considering. It's simply is that ETB disruptive enough. Definitely think there's a lot of opportunities where I would be glad to have it.
Is that a good enough argument though? Lots of things are absurd with sneak attack and venser. What I don't like is that this 5 mana creature is a vanilla 4/5. And only when combined with other cards in our deck does she start to bring value to the table. She'll have a target on her head too as soon as she's there, everyone knows were a deck of valuetown ETBs. If someone plows her then we wasted a whole turn.
Plus, she has to copy two things to be better then just putting another clone in our deck. So realistically, how often will she be better then a clone?
There's no harm in trying her out I suppose I'm just skeptical.
If ghostly prison and propaganda are actually a problem for us then this guy doesn't help at all. The attack trigger has passed, we already attacked the wrong person. And redirecting one attacker away from you when they aren't expecting it could be totally game-changing if it buys you another turn. That's a very valid use case although not enough of one to justify including him.
The main use case I was thinking of was removal. Take an attacking creature and redirect him to the guy that can kill it. That seems like the primary way he would be used. But there's lots of situational ones. The ones you presented are some, others off the top of my head:
Maybe its not good enough since it doesn't combo with anything in our deck like Dualcaster Mage does. But I bet it wouldn't be a dead draw.
Even if you could abuse it through Sneak Attack and clones, I'm not convinced it's even an effect that's worth abusing. Dualcaster Mage is an effect that's worth abusing.
Also, I have some questions on a card that some of you may run. That card is Chasm Skulker.
How good is it in your lists? I'm thinking of trying out a very similar card in Hangarback Walker but with a few key differences. The reason I was thinking about it is because Genesis Chamber is actually quite strong in the affinity build.
A) You don't get a "free" add-on +1/+1 counter in your draw steps to go with the counter from dethrone. You also don't get counters for drawing cards
B) However, the tokens are flying thopter artifacts and you do get modular synergy. It also on average costs 1cmc less.
C) Unlike Chasm Skulker, when this thing dies it doesn't come back.
It is very likely that I'm cutting one of my six drops for this card if it is worthy of inclusion.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Goblin Green Acres
Chasm skulker >>>>>>>>>>>>>hangarback
Inalla is better then a clone in my opinion. The worst is you have a 4/5, the best is you living death for double your graveyard. The limit is sky high and she has to be answered.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I thought your find here is very clever, so I went through my list looking for a cut when I saw that I already run Deathrender. Deathrender, is expensive, I consider it to be one of my 6 drops but it does a similar job than Shifting Shadow. Even with double the cost and a more vulnerable type (Artifact vs Enchantment), I like Deathrender more. While its great that Shifting Shadow digs for another threat while Deathrender requires you to have one in hand, I think there's too much Creature removal and you've incentivized someone to 2-for-1 you.
I think it's funny, definitely playable but with the antagonistic approach Marchesa has at the table, you can't run cute cards because the table is out to disrupt you.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Herald of Seven Servants seems like a no-brainer must include. 3 mana creature that makes our whole team unblockable? Um. Yes.
Ruin Raider - Basically a 3 mana dark confidant that gives me a card the turn I play him. Seems strong. Not a wizard sadly and depends on his power but eye is caught.
Hostage Taker - Costs 4 but wow that's fun. Exile something until he's gone and a way to make it permanent by casting it yourself? Excellent
Arcane Adaptation - Man I really want to play this thing naming wizards. Its cheap but its not a creature and does nothing by itself. Unsure, worth considering though.
Ogre Fleet Ravager - It costs 5 so questionable but it definitely hits the table with a boom. 1/3 life gone from all players. Seems like something an aggro deck could enjoy. Menace and deathtouch make it pretty hard to justify blocking. And its a wizard.
Aegriah's Marauders - 5 mana has to be a wincon right? Gratuitous Violence on a stick seems like it should probably qualify.
Maybe I'm getting a little overeager since these are unconfirmed. But if true, wow that was an exciting leak.
Aegriah's Marauders seems like it could replace Flayer of the Hatebound but damn do I like Flayer's reach when I got a sac outlet and can proceed to grind people out of the game.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Eh seems pretty limited. Only relevant with another attacking creature until EOT and doesn't get counters, etbs or attack triggers from them.
Also really liking hostage taker more and more. Just stealing all the sol rings and cheap rocks is huge
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Even without being able to do this, it seems like a solid card to play in this deck.
It's a repeat of the Saheeli-Cat mistake. Someone (or many someones) in R&D aren't paying attention to the words they put on cards.
I think we might be due for some more day-0 errata!
Other than that, Vindictive Lich seems very solid, as already mentioned.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.