So if you have a +1/+1 counter on a creature with embalm and it goes to the graveyard then you trigger embalm when the creature hit the graveyard do you get past the exile with marchesa or does triggering embalm take priority on the stack?
Just wondering is it possible to get past the embalm rules with Marchesa.
So if you have a +1/+1 counter on a creature with embalm and it goes to the graveyard then you trigger embalm when the creature hit the graveyard do you get past the exile with marchesa or does triggering embalm take priority on the stack?
Just wondering is it possible to get past the embalm rules with Marchesa.
So if you have a +1/+1 counter on a creature with embalm and it goes to the graveyard then you trigger embalm when the creature hit the graveyard do you get past the exile with marchesa or does triggering embalm take priority on the stack?
Just wondering is it possible to get past the embalm rules with Marchesa.
I don't know what you're saying.
Embalm is an Activated Ability that Exiles the Creature from the Graveyard to make a token. There is no 'trigger'. It is the same with Eternalize.
If the Embalm/Eternalize Creature hits the yard with a +1/+1 Counter, it is a Creature that has Marchesa's trigger on it. If you Eternalized or Embalmed the Creature, it's a token and tokens cease to exist if they leave the Battlefield.
So if you have a +1/+1 counter on a creature with embalm and it goes to the graveyard then you trigger embalm when the creature hit the graveyard do you get past the exile with marchesa or does triggering embalm take priority on the stack?
Just wondering is it possible to get past the embalm rules with Marchesa.
I don't know what you're saying.
Embalm is an Activated Ability that Exiles the Creature from the Graveyard to make a token. There is no 'trigger'. It is the same with Eternalize.
If the Embalm/Eternalize Creature hits the yard with a +1/+1 Counter, it is a Creature that has Marchesa's trigger on it. If you Eternalized or Embalmed the Creature, it's a token and tokens cease to exist if they leave the Battlefield.
So what are you really asking?
So what I an saying is... If you have marchesa out and a creature with embalm out, and there is a +1/+1 counter on the embalm creature then it dies some how, there is a period of time it is in the graveyard can you (activate) embalm and get the card and the token both. And not have to exile the card?
Bloodline Necromancer was spoiled. I know many of you won't play it cuz its 5 cmc, but its a value creature that helps you come back from behind and can occasionally gain you some much needed life in cases that you would want it. Also, it lets you throw Marchesa into the graveyard instead of paying 8+ mana to cast from the command zone later in the game.
Bloodline Necromancer was spoiled. I know many of you won't play it cuz its 5 cmc, but its a value creature that helps you come back from behind and can occasionally gain you some much needed life in cases that you would want it. Also, it lets you throw Marchesa into the graveyard instead of paying 8+ mana to cast from the command zone later in the game.
I mean isn't that just a worse Phyrexian Delver for us? A card we're already not playing because the value to cost ratio is too far off?
The 5-drop I'm really looking at right now is Kindred Discovery. 5 mana non-creature is definitely not ideal but man that card is a powerhouse for us.
Kindred Discovery is a good payoff. I think it's good enough that even I'm considering it just to name something like constructs (and I normally wouldn't).
Being able to trigger on both etb AND attack is what you get over something like River Kelpie.
I don't run enough of one Creature type to justify Kindred Discovery. While the ETB and Attack triggers are nice, my Enchantment draw is Dark Prophecy, as it does exactly what an Aggro Marchesa wants: lowers my life and draws me cards. This in addition to Phyrexian Arena, Rhystic Study and Necropotence. All 3 drops, perfect to start the game off with and then use Marchesa. A 5 drop, on the other hand, has to be extraodrinary.
I did a count for Path of Ancestry and while I like that it gives mana we need due to our horrendous situation for fixing, it still ETBTs and doesn't deal damage to ourselves or protects Marchesa.
I don't like kindred or the vampire, i am sure we will get something nice though. The new tribal land might be pretty decent, it's slow but can filter every now and again.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I just realized that it is strictly better than Crumbling Necropolis, which I do run. At the very minimum, it Scrys off of casting Marchesa. Perhaps I should get it as well, or maybe cut Necropolis for a Basic. I've had some hairy games where I've lacked a Swamp that turns on a lot of my Lands. But hey, that's the problem with 3 color 'classic' Aggro.
What do we think of Patron of the Vein? He costs a lot at 6 mana, but he kills something and makes a counter for himself when he does, making him easy to repeat with Marchesa.
We're a low-to-the-ground aggro deck, if it costs 6 it should be winning if left unanswered. If you want a Vampire that hates on Creatures, gets +1/+1 Counters then Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet's price should drop this September.
What do we think of Patron of the Vein? He costs a lot at 6 mana, but he kills something and makes a counter for himself when he does, making him easy to repeat with Marchesa.
Not a fan of that one, costs way too much. Even if that second ability was worded as a replacement effect I think its overcosted. But as it is they still get their dies triggers and a chance to respond to your trigger. I mean its cute but I don't think its good enough for its cost.
There's a few factors, the primary one is price of the card. It's currently $12USD and that's after a massive drop.
The second is that we don't have time to use Kalitas' Activated Ability to get +1/+1 Counters. I barely feel like Attrition is a good deal for me, because most of the time when I sacrifice something I want it to be free. If I'm hesitant to spend 1 mana on an outright kill, it is harder to justify spending 3 mana to just make Kalitas get bigger by two. Hell, I don't use Flesh Carver who is another decent sac engine that brings benefits post-Wrath because I don't have time to spend 2 mana on a Sac Engine.
When you see that, you also want to maybe put in more Vampires and/or Zombies even if Kalitas in theory brings her own entourage. Though I'm certain some people can overcome that urge, not everyone can. The good news is that a lot of Marchesa's cards are incidentally Vampires or Zombies, so there shouldn't be too much of a tribal angle. The need to put in more Zombies and Vampires could turn people away otherwise she "isn't good enough".
The last factor is that despite how good Kalitas is, I don't have room for her. My four drops are either part of a combo, an oppressive engine, massive pump or card advantage engines. These are cards that are going to outright win me the game if left unanswered. Meanwhile, Kalitas is just a 3/4 with Lifelink (which is solid, there's lots of times when I died because I dipped too low). I have one meta-call and that's Aura Thief because Pillowfort Enchantments like Propaganda pump the brakes too much, plus other just general broken goodies that tend to exist. Off of the top of my head, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Bloodchief Ascension, Grave Betrayal and so much more. I am unable to fight past some of these because they kill the table too quickly or slam down a lock too well.
With all of these factors, if you only have a single meta call and you find that the entire meta is rampant with Graveyard Recursion. You frequently sit down across from an entire Meren Pod, then sure. It makes sense to choose Kalitas' GY hate over Aura Thief's Enchantments but the thing is I'm Grixis. I can kill Creatures, it's handling Enchantments that's the problem for me.
So new spoiler, Inalla, she's a grixis wizard that clones wizards on etb for 1, definitely worth considering even though she costs 5. She can also let 5 wizards tap for a 7 targetted life loss.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I personally think that wizard is strong not because of that ability (It's basically Flameshadow Conjuring on a 4/5 for 5 with a small extra ability), but because that ability is active when in the command zone.
This essentially means that decks with this wizard at the helm gets a free, unkillable Flameshadow Conjuring for wizards. You rarely have a reason to cast it from the command zone unless you don't have much else to do.
I'm personally testing Time Sieve for artifacts. 5 is a lot, but I can throw away modulars and myr tokens from Genesis Chamber. Plus, paying 2 once for repeatable extra turns as long as you have the fodder can be really quite strong. It feels weird talking about a more combo-like Marchesa than the aggro-midrange builds that people have here.
I actually at this point have so many ways to get ravager that I'm trying the deck out WITHOUT bad Mike.
And for the record, I think Patron of the Vein is actually quite strong, but ONLY if you can dependably get an instant speed free sac outlet. If you have an infinite sac outlet, it kills things every turn. Exiling them as they die is actually a pretty big benefit. It may not win the game, but it will lock down the table until it is dealt with and has synergies with any vampires in your deck. I think having a number of ways of getting rid of problematic cards is important and I still run black gearhulk and feel okay about it.
That being said, if you are playing low to the ground then you may not want it.
And yes, I do think the lack of removal in many Marchesa lists can be a problem, because one way other decks can beat you is by ignoring what you do or simply not answering what you do and go over the top. Also answering gravehate is kind of important.
I personally think that wizard is strong not because of that ability (It's basically Flameshadow Conjuring on a 4/5 for 5 with a small extra ability), but because that ability is active when in the command zone.
This essentially means that decks with this wizard at the helm gets a free, unkillable Flameshadow Conjuring for wizards. You rarely have a reason to cast it from the command zone unless you don't have much else to do.
I'm personally testing Time Sieve for artifacts. 5 is a lot, but I can throw away modulars and myr tokens from Genesis Chamber. Plus, paying 2 once for repeatable extra turns as long as you have the fodder can be really quite strong. It feels weird talking about a more combo-like Marchesa than the aggro-midrange builds that people have here.
I actually at this point have so many ways to get ravager that I'm trying the deck out WITHOUT bad Mike.
And for the record, I think Patron of the Vein is actually quite strong, but ONLY if you can dependably get an instant speed free sac outlet. If you have an infinite sac outlet, it kills things every turn. Exiling them as they die is actually a pretty big benefit. It may not win the game, but it will lock down the table until it is dealt with and has synergies with any vampires in your deck. I think having a number of ways of getting rid of problematic cards is important and I still run black gearhulk and feel okay about it.
That being said, if you are playing low to the ground then you may not want it.
And yes, I do think the lack of removal in many Marchesa lists can be a problem, because one way other decks can beat you is by ignoring what you do or simply not answering what you do and go over the top. Also answering gravehate is kind of important.
I agree with your assessment of Inalla. I thought the same when I saw her. In the commandzone, especially with a deck built almost entirely around ETB triggers and wizards with ETBs she's a powerhouse. I'm not a huge fan of her in our deck. We have a lot of wizards but they're all much cheaper then her, so who knows what we have left in our hand when we play her. And then unless we got her in via sneak attack we have to wait a whole turn for her to do anything special. And then maybe we can get something for an extra one mana? I mean I'm looking through the list, we may have a decent amount of wizards but its not overwhelming and only like half have an ETB. I'm just not a fan of her in the 99.
You have made me reconsider Patron though. For some reason it didn't click until you said it: its an asymmetric wrath if you have a sac effect. It keeps bouncing in and out of the board once a turn until someone stops her or you win. That is really powerful and I think I do want to try and find Patron a spot. Whenever I manage to get an every turn ETB like that I almost always win. Usually its Metallic Mimic/Sage of Fables + Venser, Shaper Savant/Solemn Simulacrum/<pretty much any other ETB> + a sac effect. So anyone that is this effect in a box really has to be considered I think, even if they cost 6. Just be careful when you shoot other commanders since those won't make it to the graveyard
Venser becomes capsize + a bear for 5 with inalla, and sneak attack can make it 2 mana. I think she is incredibly strong in our deck. That is just 1 example of obsurd things we can do.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
A little disappointing that she won't be foil, but it's acceptable considering how many other goodies are being provided. If Vindictive Lich and even Portal Mage are anything to go by it seems clear that Marchesa, TBR decks are about to get a few impressive cards - maybe even enough to push certain builds in the direction of Wizard tribal if there are enough ETB Wizards like the Lich. Whatever new Wizards get released also in turn make Mimic and Sage of Fables that much more synergistic for us, too.
I'm intrigued to see if there are enough powerful ETB Wizards to go full on Urza's Incubator/Mana Echoes/Cover of Darkness Wizard tribal with Marchesa.
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Just wondering is it possible to get past the embalm rules with Marchesa.
Karona, False God | Sliver King | Horde of Notions | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Rhys the Redeemed | Selvala, Explorer Returned | Angus Mackenale
Vela the Night-Clad | Kaalia of the Vast | Merieke Ri Berit | Jhoira of the Ghitu | Ashling the Pilgrim | Arcum Dagsson
Ertai, Wizard Adept | Glissa, the Traitor | Oona, Queen of the Fae
Nope... Doesn't work. sorry
Goblin Green Acres
Embalm is an Activated Ability that Exiles the Creature from the Graveyard to make a token. There is no 'trigger'. It is the same with Eternalize.
If the Embalm/Eternalize Creature hits the yard with a +1/+1 Counter, it is a Creature that has Marchesa's trigger on it. If you Eternalized or Embalmed the Creature, it's a token and tokens cease to exist if they leave the Battlefield.
So what are you really asking?
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
So what I an saying is... If you have marchesa out and a creature with embalm out, and there is a +1/+1 counter on the embalm creature then it dies some how, there is a period of time it is in the graveyard can you (activate) embalm and get the card and the token both. And not have to exile the card?
Karona, False God | Sliver King | Horde of Notions | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Rhys the Redeemed | Selvala, Explorer Returned | Angus Mackenale
Vela the Night-Clad | Kaalia of the Vast | Merieke Ri Berit | Jhoira of the Ghitu | Ashling the Pilgrim | Arcum Dagsson
Ertai, Wizard Adept | Glissa, the Traitor | Oona, Queen of the Fae
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Thanks for the straight answer. I was just hoping there was a way to play with the stack and keep the embalm card.
Karona, False God | Sliver King | Horde of Notions | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Rhys the Redeemed | Selvala, Explorer Returned | Angus Mackenale
Vela the Night-Clad | Kaalia of the Vast | Merieke Ri Berit | Jhoira of the Ghitu | Ashling the Pilgrim | Arcum Dagsson
Ertai, Wizard Adept | Glissa, the Traitor | Oona, Queen of the Fae
I mean isn't that just a worse Phyrexian Delver for us? A card we're already not playing because the value to cost ratio is too far off?
The 5-drop I'm really looking at right now is Kindred Discovery. 5 mana non-creature is definitely not ideal but man that card is a powerhouse for us.
Being able to trigger on both etb AND attack is what you get over something like River Kelpie.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I did a count for Path of Ancestry and while I like that it gives mana we need due to our horrendous situation for fixing, it still ETBTs and doesn't deal damage to ourselves or protects Marchesa.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
We're a low-to-the-ground aggro deck, if it costs 6 it should be winning if left unanswered. If you want a Vampire that hates on Creatures, gets +1/+1 Counters then Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet's price should drop this September.
For comparison, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Flayer of the Hatebound are my 6 drops and those definitely win me the game if no one deals with them.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Not a fan of that one, costs way too much. Even if that second ability was worded as a replacement effect I think its overcosted. But as it is they still get their dies triggers and a chance to respond to your trigger. I mean its cute but I don't think its good enough for its cost.
Huh. I forgot about him. Why aren't we playing him? That's a pretty potent 4 drop.
The second is that we don't have time to use Kalitas' Activated Ability to get +1/+1 Counters. I barely feel like Attrition is a good deal for me, because most of the time when I sacrifice something I want it to be free. If I'm hesitant to spend 1 mana on an outright kill, it is harder to justify spending 3 mana to just make Kalitas get bigger by two. Hell, I don't use Flesh Carver who is another decent sac engine that brings benefits post-Wrath because I don't have time to spend 2 mana on a Sac Engine.
When you see that, you also want to maybe put in more Vampires and/or Zombies even if Kalitas in theory brings her own entourage. Though I'm certain some people can overcome that urge, not everyone can. The good news is that a lot of Marchesa's cards are incidentally Vampires or Zombies, so there shouldn't be too much of a tribal angle. The need to put in more Zombies and Vampires could turn people away otherwise she "isn't good enough".
The last factor is that despite how good Kalitas is, I don't have room for her. My four drops are either part of a combo, an oppressive engine, massive pump or card advantage engines. These are cards that are going to outright win me the game if left unanswered. Meanwhile, Kalitas is just a 3/4 with Lifelink (which is solid, there's lots of times when I died because I dipped too low). I have one meta-call and that's Aura Thief because Pillowfort Enchantments like Propaganda pump the brakes too much, plus other just general broken goodies that tend to exist. Off of the top of my head, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Bloodchief Ascension, Grave Betrayal and so much more. I am unable to fight past some of these because they kill the table too quickly or slam down a lock too well.
With all of these factors, if you only have a single meta call and you find that the entire meta is rampant with Graveyard Recursion. You frequently sit down across from an entire Meren Pod, then sure. It makes sense to choose Kalitas' GY hate over Aura Thief's Enchantments but the thing is I'm Grixis. I can kill Creatures, it's handling Enchantments that's the problem for me.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
This essentially means that decks with this wizard at the helm gets a free, unkillable Flameshadow Conjuring for wizards. You rarely have a reason to cast it from the command zone unless you don't have much else to do.
I'm personally testing Time Sieve for artifacts. 5 is a lot, but I can throw away modulars and myr tokens from Genesis Chamber. Plus, paying 2 once for repeatable extra turns as long as you have the fodder can be really quite strong. It feels weird talking about a more combo-like Marchesa than the aggro-midrange builds that people have here.
I actually at this point have so many ways to get ravager that I'm trying the deck out WITHOUT bad Mike.
And for the record, I think Patron of the Vein is actually quite strong, but ONLY if you can dependably get an instant speed free sac outlet. If you have an infinite sac outlet, it kills things every turn. Exiling them as they die is actually a pretty big benefit. It may not win the game, but it will lock down the table until it is dealt with and has synergies with any vampires in your deck. I think having a number of ways of getting rid of problematic cards is important and I still run black gearhulk and feel okay about it.
That being said, if you are playing low to the ground then you may not want it.
And yes, I do think the lack of removal in many Marchesa lists can be a problem, because one way other decks can beat you is by ignoring what you do or simply not answering what you do and go over the top. Also answering gravehate is kind of important.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I agree with your assessment of Inalla. I thought the same when I saw her. In the commandzone, especially with a deck built almost entirely around ETB triggers and wizards with ETBs she's a powerhouse. I'm not a huge fan of her in our deck. We have a lot of wizards but they're all much cheaper then her, so who knows what we have left in our hand when we play her. And then unless we got her in via sneak attack we have to wait a whole turn for her to do anything special. And then maybe we can get something for an extra one mana? I mean I'm looking through the list, we may have a decent amount of wizards but its not overwhelming and only like half have an ETB. I'm just not a fan of her in the 99.
You have made me reconsider Patron though. For some reason it didn't click until you said it: its an asymmetric wrath if you have a sac effect. It keeps bouncing in and out of the board once a turn until someone stops her or you win. That is really powerful and I think I do want to try and find Patron a spot. Whenever I manage to get an every turn ETB like that I almost always win. Usually its Metallic Mimic/Sage of Fables + Venser, Shaper Savant/Solemn Simulacrum/<pretty much any other ETB> + a sac effect. So anyone that is this effect in a box really has to be considered I think, even if they cost 6. Just be careful when you shoot other commanders since those won't make it to the graveyard
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
I'm intrigued to see if there are enough powerful ETB Wizards to go full on Urza's Incubator/Mana Echoes/Cover of Darkness Wizard tribal with Marchesa.