One card I haven't seen in many Marchesa decklists on this thread is Nim Deathmantle. Has anyone tried it? It seems like a sweet alternative way to cycle etb/ltb/sac abilities.
4 mana for the ability is way too high in a tempo deck where we want to lay threats down all game long, rarely do i ever have 4 mana to spare unless im holding a venser in hand.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
4 mana for the ability is way too high in a tempo deck where we want to lay threats down all game long, rarely do i ever have 4 mana to spare unless im holding a venser in hand.
Ya I guess that makes sense. I love it in Teysa to retrigger etb abilities like Marsh Flitter and Senger Autocrat but I often have more mana then I know what to do with in that deck, especially when I have Ashnod's Altar or Carnival of Souls out. I thought it would benefit Marchesa similarly but your right, she plays a lot more agressively then Teysa does.
I've actually been considering this change for some time. I've always been torn whether I like the filters or the checks better regardless and more and more I've been think humility our strong color needs would be better served by the filters.
Also this recent discussion over the <> kind of sealed the deal for me. The fact that these already excellent duals also have a tap for colorless mode may suddenly become very relevant. I was really hoping for a reprint in MM2015, now I'm wondering if I should acquire them before the price gets worse
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
So even harder to acquire...I have been using the filter lands for a while. They are always relevant and the ability to turn a black or blue into two red is underrated. If you can pick them up they are worth it next to shocks and hack lands as the best budget option. Unless you play online we all cant have duals now can we.
After talking on another thread about the <> symbol I'm finally convinced its going to replace the 1 mana symbol. I still think its possable for it to be something else but Its likely Elcon is right.
With the spoiler of the Expedition Mystic Gate, it looks like <> will indeed be the new symbol for colorless mana. As such, should we take the earlier suggestion and find a spot for the filter lands in order to prepare for any future colorless costs?
With the spoiler of the Expedition Mystic Gate, it looks like <> will indeed be the new symbol for colorless mana. As such, should we take the earlier suggestion and find a spot for the filter lands in order to prepare for any future colorless costs?
I use em already :p, that being said I wouldn't adjust your mana base (if you're happy with it) until you see a few cards that require <> mana. Its possable there won't be any cards we will want to use. Even then <> costed cards are going to be fairly hard to cast in a tri-coloured deck. Unless they are really powerful it may be worth it.
With the spoiler of the Expedition Mystic Gate, it looks like <> will indeed be the new symbol for colorless mana. As such, should we take the earlier suggestion and find a spot for the filter lands in order to prepare for any future colorless costs?
If that Mystic Gate is real, then every colorless mana ability will produce <> (ie. Sol Ring will make <><>, Ancient Tomb will make <><> and shock you for it, Phyrexian Tower will make <>, Reflecting Pool makes it if you control a land that makes <>, Pain Lands make <>). It's not that the filter lands are the only ones that will do this.
The remaining question is whether colorless is a color or not, ie. whether Command Tower taps for WUBRGD or just WUBRG. Reflecting Pool would work regardless because it makes mana of "any type", not "any color".
With the spoiler of the Expedition Mystic Gate, it looks like <> will indeed be the new symbol for colorless mana. As such, should we take the earlier suggestion and find a spot for the filter lands in order to prepare for any future colorless costs?
If that Mystic Gate is real, then every colorless mana ability will produce <> (ie. Sol Ring will make <><>, Ancient Tomb will make <><> and shock you for it, Phyrexian Tower will make <>, Reflecting Pool makes it if you control a land that makes <>, Pain Lands make <>). It's not that the filter lands are the only ones that will do this.
The remaining question is whether colorless is a color or not, ie. whether Command Tower taps for WUBRGD or just WUBRG. Reflecting Pool would work regardless because it makes mana of "any type", not "any color".
Yea we're probably OK with <> but that was just the icing on the cake for the filter lands.
My argument for the filters is whenever I run into mana trouble in this deck it's usually due to colors not quantity. You really don't need much quantity to get going but we do have really heavy color requirements in our cards. I think because of that the filter lands are better than the checklands for us since they make double colored costs so much easier.
The fact that they also tap for <> is really a bonus that may suddenly become relevant if something good comes out in Oath.
I wouldn't sweat it unless something we want with a <> cost is spoiled. For the most part what I imagine will be happening is that things which tap for colorless will be updated to produce <> but costs won't be changing since that would represent a breaking change (e.g. Sol Ring will remain with a CC of 1, but will produce <><>). I think Oath is likely to be the only place (for the foreseeable future) where <> is used as a cost since the "colorlessness" theme is tied to Eldrazi. Maybe we see it again as a cost in supplementary products down the line (Commander, Conspiracy, etc) but that's a ways off.
The whole thing is really just making explicit something that has always been the case. I'd wager they've wanted to for a while and were just waiting for the right block to do it.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Personally I would go down to just one of each basic land and put the filters in.
Can't go that low on basics unless you want to cut Burnished Hart. You'd probably have to cut Solemn Simulacrum too if you have only 3. I never liked the hart that much but cutting sad robot in this deck would make me sad. With marchesa he's downright dangerous.
I run 3 islands, 5 swamp and 7 mountain in my mana base. I dont have abur duals anymore so running fetches, painlands, shocks, filters and utility. With 3x signets and 2x talismans i cant remember being color hosed ever.
6-7 total basics is about my minimum. I'm at 7 right now, 3 islands, 3 mountains and 1 swamp. And yea @SlaveToPhage, I run the BFZ/Onslaught fetches, manlands, checklands, abur duals, painlands and 6 all colors lands in addition to the signets and the talismans. A vast majority of the time my mana is fine but sometimes you get hosed and I have been hosed before. All I'm saying is when it happens it's almost always because I'm missing a color, or drew a bunch of dual costed guys in a color I cannot seem to get multiple in. It's rarely because I actually don't have enough mana to get my game started.
Btw, for anyone curious, Wastes is just a card name. It does not work like other basics, there's no implied "tap for C". The full art ones are basically textless promos, the regular ones will always have "Tap for C" as their rules text. So there's no big change to how basics work coming.
Btw, for anyone curious, Wastes is just a card name. It does not work like other basics, there's no implied "tap for C". The full art ones are basically textless promos, the regular ones will always have "Tap for C" as their rules text. So there's no big change to how basics work coming.
EDIT: lol looks like mtgsalvation has a symbol to update.
The only real difference is that Wastes doesn't have a type and therefore doesn't affect Domain. It's not a color so it doesn't affect Converge, either. This means that Command Tower (and everything else that says "any color") doesn't make {C}. It's a pseudo-color, only in the sense that it shows up in mana costs.
I don't think anything here precludes Wastes from having oracle text of "(tap for C)" like other basics do (ie. reminder text styled inside parentheses)".
The only real difference is that Wastes doesn't have a type and therefore doesn't affect Domain. It's not a color so it doesn't affect Converge, either. This means that Command Tower (and everything else that says "any color") doesn't make {C}. It's a pseudo-color, only in the sense that it shows up in mana costs.
I don't think anything here precludes Wastes from having oracle text of "(tap for C)" like other basics do (ie. reminder text styled inside parentheses)".
No see that would actually be a big deal. Wrapping the text in parentheses like that is not a style, it means it's being put on the card as a reminder only but the text is already implied by something else.
For instance, the rules stipulate that if a permanent is a land and it has type forest then it's rules text includes "tap: add G", regardless of whether its printed on the card or not. This is why Murmuring Bosk looks the way it does. If they printed that first part without parentheses then its rules text would actually be different, it would be: (tap: add G) (coming from the forest type)
tap: add G (written on the card)
....
So if they printed Wastes with "tap: add C" in parentheses then that could only mean some other aspect of the card is implying that ability. That would mean the comprehensive rules either had to have a specific entry that says "cards with the name "Wastes" always have "tap: add C" in their rules text". Or something even crazier like "all basic lands have "tap: add C" in their rules text or "basic lands without a type have "tap: add C"". That's why it was an important question, either of those latter two rules changes would be a pretty significant deal. Based on matt's response though we'll just have no parentheses "tap: add C" on the non-full arts, keeping it simple.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Drowned Catacomb -> Sunken Ruins
Dragonskull Summit -> Graven Cairns
Sulfur Falls -> Cascade Bluffs
I've actually been considering this change for some time. I've always been torn whether I like the filters or the checks better regardless and more and more I've been think humility our strong color needs would be better served by the filters.
Also this recent discussion over the <> kind of sealed the deal for me. The fact that these already excellent duals also have a tap for colorless mode may suddenly become very relevant. I was really hoping for a reprint in MM2015, now I'm wondering if I should acquire them before the price gets worse
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
After talking on another thread about the <> symbol I'm finally convinced its going to replace the 1 mana symbol. I still think its possable for it to be something else but Its likely Elcon is right.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
If that Mystic Gate is real, then every colorless mana ability will produce <> (ie. Sol Ring will make <><>, Ancient Tomb will make <><> and shock you for it, Phyrexian Tower will make <>, Reflecting Pool makes it if you control a land that makes <>, Pain Lands make <>). It's not that the filter lands are the only ones that will do this.
The remaining question is whether colorless is a color or not, ie. whether Command Tower taps for WUBRGD or just WUBRG. Reflecting Pool would work regardless because it makes mana of "any type", not "any color".
Yea we're probably OK with <> but that was just the icing on the cake for the filter lands.
My argument for the filters is whenever I run into mana trouble in this deck it's usually due to colors not quantity. You really don't need much quantity to get going but we do have really heavy color requirements in our cards. I think because of that the filter lands are better than the checklands for us since they make double colored costs so much easier.
The fact that they also tap for <> is really a bonus that may suddenly become relevant if something good comes out in Oath.
The whole thing is really just making explicit something that has always been the case. I'd wager they've wanted to for a while and were just waiting for the right block to do it.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Can't go that low on basics unless you want to cut Burnished Hart. You'd probably have to cut Solemn Simulacrum too if you have only 3. I never liked the hart that much but cutting sad robot in this deck would make me sad. With marchesa he's downright dangerous.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
https://twitter.com/TrickMTG/status/675303346681593856
6-7 total basics is about my minimum. I'm at 7 right now, 3 islands, 3 mountains and 1 swamp. And yea @SlaveToPhage, I run the BFZ/Onslaught fetches, manlands, checklands, abur duals, painlands and 6 all colors lands in addition to the signets and the talismans. A vast majority of the time my mana is fine but sometimes you get hosed and I have been hosed before. All I'm saying is when it happens it's almost always because I'm missing a color, or drew a bunch of dual costed guys in a color I cannot seem to get multiple in. It's rarely because I actually don't have enough mana to get my game started.
EDIT: Khans fetches, not BFZ. Brainfart.
Btw, for anyone curious, Wastes is just a card name. It does not work like other basics, there's no implied "tap for C". The full art ones are basically textless promos, the regular ones will always have "Tap for C" as their rules text. So there's no big change to how basics work coming.
See https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/675347127048867840
EDIT: lol looks like mtgsalvation has a symbol to update.
The only real difference is that Wastes doesn't have a type and therefore doesn't affect Domain. It's not a color so it doesn't affect Converge, either. This means that Command Tower (and everything else that says "any color") doesn't make {C}. It's a pseudo-color, only in the sense that it shows up in mana costs.
I don't think anything here precludes Wastes from having oracle text of "(tap for C)" like other basics do (ie. reminder text styled inside parentheses)".
No see that would actually be a big deal. Wrapping the text in parentheses like that is not a style, it means it's being put on the card as a reminder only but the text is already implied by something else.
For instance, the rules stipulate that if a permanent is a land and it has type forest then it's rules text includes "tap: add G", regardless of whether its printed on the card or not. This is why Murmuring Bosk looks the way it does. If they printed that first part without parentheses then its rules text would actually be different, it would be:
(tap: add G) (coming from the forest type)
tap: add G (written on the card)
....
So if they printed Wastes with "tap: add C" in parentheses then that could only mean some other aspect of the card is implying that ability. That would mean the comprehensive rules either had to have a specific entry that says "cards with the name "Wastes" always have "tap: add C" in their rules text". Or something even crazier like "all basic lands have "tap: add C" in their rules text or "basic lands without a type have "tap: add C"". That's why it was an important question, either of those latter two rules changes would be a pretty significant deal. Based on matt's response though we'll just have no parentheses "tap: add C" on the non-full arts, keeping it simple.
EDIT: Yea, see, Trick answered
Stop hijacking this thread
Please keep your future set discussion to the proper forum, they have no relevance to Marchesa decks.