So...Grenzo is probably my new favorite card. I have no idea how I would want to build him, and thus I am looking to brainstorm with you folks. Here are my thoughts thus far:
1: good with Goblin Tribal.
2: good with Rogue Tribal.
3: Good with Scry.
4: Good with Reito Lantern and other cards like it.
5: good with Teferi's Puzzle Box and other cards like it.
6: good with Reanimator.
Any auto includes that you guys see? I think I would like to avoid BR goodstuff, but I am sure there are unique cards that work with him. I will be coming up with a more cemented decklist over the next few days.
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Well unfortunately, red and black and among the worse scry colors, but I think Fated Return would be a nice fit - seems on-theme and gives you scry as well. I'd also recommend Viscera Seer, that seems useful since I'm sure you'll be doing lots of graveyard shenanigans. Most of red's scry is tied to burn, which is boring and not useful, but if you do end up going with several scrying cards, Knowledge and Power might end up doing some work for you. I also second the post from Adam_Frankenstein mentioning Junktroller and Darksteel Pendant, both great cards here.
Considering the Cascade mechanic. Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom in a random order.)
1 Bituminous Blast - really the only option in Rakdos
Main problem I see with Cascade for 4 CMC is you are likely to cast whatever creature you hit. Any creature with CMC 5 or greater is likely to be unplayable with Grenzo's ability. Ah well.
and the Clash mechanic. Clash (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost.) Hoarder's Greed - win once and you net 4 cards and potentially a target for Grenzo activation. Revive the Fallen - reusable Raise Dead to hand plus a potential Grenzo activation. Titan's Revenge? - removal plus potential Grenzo activation. pretty much unplayable.
Main problem I see with the Clash mechanic is you probably want lost CMC creatures, which means you are less likely to win. However, with enough focus on top deck control via Scry and Sensei's Divining Top, you might find yourself in a favorable situation more often than not.
Another consideration might be Heartstone. Making Grenzo's activation a mere 1 mana makes it even easier to go infinite or just have absurdly broken turns.
I'm thinking about trying out a Grenzo deck sometime soon, and one card I've been eyeing up as having potential is Thran Turbine. Unlike Braid of Fire, which has been lambasted by another already, it comes into play first turn, this means that it won't interrupt your second turn Commander drop, and as well provides consistent mana during each of your upkeeps to activate Grenzo's ability. Another card that is at least interesting with Grenzo is Crucible of Worlds. It can help out by smoothing out your mana base if you cast happen to start milling any. Finally, I wouldn't solely rely on one time effects or Grenzo's ability for reanimation, but I would probably include some general things like Phyrexian Reclamation and Volrath's Stronghold.
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The first thing I thought of was Rakdos, Lord of Riots. You punch face, deal X damage and that pays for Grenzo's cost. Then you start pooping out creatures that should really be hard cast but you avoid that because of Rakdos.
Seeing this creation makes me think that Rakdos should remain the general and Grenzo a sidekick. The way you're doing, infinite goblin chains, seems to be the best option. I'm disappointed though. I was hoping for some awesome Rakdos shenanigans.
I was playing a friend's early Grenzo build, and the deck definitely wants to be a legacy goblins deck. All my hands that reminded me of my legacy deck were insanely powerful.
I'm talking T1 Lackey, T2 put Goblin Matron into play, T3 play Kikki-Jiki, start tutoring goblins every turn. T1 lackey is pretty nuts in commander; you just start doing things before anyone else.
EDIT: I'm obvi not playing Kiki in Legacy, but that amount of tempo makes me think of legacy.
the wording on grenzo is not just goblin, but creatures. I will suggest royal assassin, bone shredder, nekrataal and such. there are also good demon and titan that can be played. whip of erobos and hammer of purphorus. anger is also a good choice. I am thinking if we can pump the power of grenzo high enough, we can cast virtually and big creature for just 2 mana. using just goblin might limit its potential.
Just quickly because I want to respond more fully. I agree with the previous poster. Don't go tribal, go medieval on them!. There are some pretty aggro creatures to play with so you can save Grenzo until he can be cast with at least 4 counters so he's more useful (plan on winning without him but having a blast if you can get him out and hexproof him). My approach in brief was a fair amount of life gain and some mean Demons and Phyrexian cards (more details later...want to include proper links). Also, card draw is essential along with your must include tutor(s). Since Black usually drains life to do this I added the life gain. Cards that have been mentioned that move cards through your hand/bottom of library are all great. The lantern was a key player in my first game (got lucky). Okay, more later with links. I'll get it up on tappedout.net. Would love feedback. It's a work in progress. Great tips all!
You use Rakdos to reduce Grenzo. If you do 4 damage, suddenly Grenzo's a 6/6 for 2 mana. Furthermore, if you go with 'big men' strategy, Rakdos would reduce the costs.
I've been toying with the idea of using Grenzo in Rakdos as its another way to cheat creatures into play.
Instead of using Rakdos to reduce cost, we can also mana accelerate with artefacts, I don't see a big need to use Rakdos as the commander. Grenzo,with a few mana accelerator, can churn out 5/5, 6/6, 8/8 with just 2 mana. also, with mana accelerator, hardcasting is not that difficult compared to play rakdosand using the ability to reduce cost, furthermore, just only colourless mana and provided he stick around. crucible of the world and flashback spells are crucial for grenzo deck. you can reuse your spells in graveyard if grenzo gives a dud. I propose a mana accelerate strategy that allow you to churn out valuable fattie bomb bomb fast. some fatties that I felt is very good
bringer of red dawn
bringer of black dawn
kokusho the evening star
ryusei the falling star
rorix bladewing
visera the vengeful
avatar of woe
helldozer
infero titan
grave titan
eater of hopes
filth
anger
kiku the night flower
akira the earth asunder(forget the name)
royal assassin
bone shredder
nekrataal
these are just a few that I think are very good. certainly more room to expound on the list.
Non-creatures that can return themselves from your graveyard to your hand/to play are potentially of interest too. For example something like Hammer of Bogardan and/or Thunderblade Charge might work well here (granted they aren't incredibly efficient cards but having more "hits" off of Grenzo seems good). As far as flashback cards go, Increasing Devotion might be good enough as a double tutor from the bin.
I'm not sure whether I like running a tribal build or just one that abuses cards like Nekrataal, Shriekmaw, etc with strong etbs. I think a tribal deck might be better suited to having Wort as the general but that could be wrong.
I´ve made my grenzo edh with arcbounds and anything 0/0 that enters with counters on it (pentavus, triskellion, etc) + artifacts with trample or flying.
plus tel-jilad, reito, junk troller, sodevi digger, darksteel pendant, jar of eyeballs, crystal ball.
then just filled the open slots with utility cards like stingmoggie, goblin setller, notorious assassin, and some discar/sac outlets.
So I have a radically different idea. What about Shadowborn Apostle? I saw an apostle deck recently that looked really interesting to me helmed by Lyzolda, the Blood Witch. It seemed like fun but I couldn't stop thinking "Grenzo could do this better". He was running like 40 of those suckers which means just popping off Grenzo at any moment with a totally random library bottom would yield you an extra you an extra guy toward the 6 40% of the time even if you played him for 2 (not even including guys like Master of Cruelties he was running that would pop out as well). Combine that with Reito Lantern, Teferi's Puzzle Box, Crystal Balland all the other synergistic cards you found and you could literally just be throwing out apostles from both ends of the deck and turning them into demons.
You could do this with Relentless Rats as well although that seems like it would be less fun.
Makes me sad noone else gives flayer of the hatebound any love. Toss him in your pile... youll understand why very very quickly. Oh and trading post does just about everything you want to help fuel the fire.
1: good with Goblin Tribal.
2: good with Rogue Tribal.
3: Good with Scry.
4: Good with Reito Lantern and other cards like it.
5: good with Teferi's Puzzle Box and other cards like it.
6: good with Reanimator.
Any auto includes that you guys see? I think I would like to avoid BR goodstuff, but I am sure there are unique cards that work with him. I will be coming up with a more cemented decklist over the next few days.
1x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Creatures:
1x Goblin Welder
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Frogtosser Banneret
1x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin King
1x Goblin Matron
1x Goblin Warchief
1x Mad Auntie
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Warren Weirding
1x Patriarch's Bidding
Artifacts:
1x Tel-Jilad Stylus
1x Cloak and Dagger
1x Reito Lantern
1x Crystal Ball
Enchantments:
1x Blood Moon
Maybes:
Oona's Blackguard
Earwig Squad
Stinkdrinker Bandit
Sensation Gorger
You may also want to consider Soldevi Digger and Junktroller and Darksteel Pendant.
EDIT: I also made a thread, its more of a tribal build, however many of the creatures are 2 power or less, some 3s, 1-2 4s, and one 5 power creature.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Maybe Goblin Charbelcher for some cheap damage while setting up the bottom of your library?
With a heavy Goblin theme, I think Mana Echoes could be abused here.
Mana Echoes + Reito Lantern + Ashnod's Altar could provide an infinite combo with Grenzo, and the individual pieces are useful on their own.
Other cards of note:
- Goblin Machinist
- Heroes' Podium (even if you don't have any other legends, looking at cards and being able to put them on the bottom is useful)
- Jar of Eyeballs
- Putrid Cyclops
- Vessel of Endless Rest (mana rock with nice upside for this deck)
If you don't mind things getting a little crazy, Mindmoil and Possibility Storm could actually work in your favor too.
EDIT: Another subtheme could be +1/+1 counters for Grenzo. Not a ton of that in R/B either, but consider the following (in addition to Oona's Blackguard, which I see you've already noted):
- Necropolis Regent
- Blade of the Bloodchief
- Unspeakable Symbol
- Dragon Blood
- Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
- Knucklebone Witch
Current EDH decks:
WBG Doran, the Siege Tower (I Like Big Butts)
URG Surrak Dragonclaw (Guttural Response)
UG Ezuri, Claw of Progress (Phyrexia's Claw)
BR Kaervek the Merciless (Keep Kaervek Alive)
BG Ishkanah, Grafwidow (Descend into Delirium)
W Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (Mark 8.5)
U Thassa, God of the Sea (Here There Be Monsters)
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom in a random order.)
1 Bituminous Blast - really the only option in Rakdos
Main problem I see with Cascade for 4 CMC is you are likely to cast whatever creature you hit. Any creature with CMC 5 or greater is likely to be unplayable with Grenzo's ability. Ah well.
and the Clash mechanic.
Clash (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost.)
Hoarder's Greed - win once and you net 4 cards and potentially a target for Grenzo activation.
Revive the Fallen - reusable Raise Dead to hand plus a potential Grenzo activation.
Titan's Revenge? - removal plus potential Grenzo activation. pretty much unplayable.
Main problem I see with the Clash mechanic is you probably want lost CMC creatures, which means you are less likely to win. However, with enough focus on top deck control via Scry and Sensei's Divining Top, you might find yourself in a favorable situation more often than not.
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
Surprised no one has mentioned Teferi's Puzzlebox
Reito Lantern + Ashnod's Altar + Grenzo makes infinite colorless mana (and thus infinite Grenzo activations) with any creature that creates a total of 2 or more other creatures. So Mogg War Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander, Beetleback Chief, Goblin Marshal, Emrakul's Hatcher, Sengir Autocrat, Marsh Flitter, etc. Conveniently, almost all of these cards are fully abusable with a default Grenzo (no +1/+1 counters). Of course, Mana Echoes makes it almost effortless to go infinite or quasi-infinite just by itself with a couple random Goblins, but it certainly isn't required to do so.
Another consideration might be Heartstone. Making Grenzo's activation a mere 1 mana makes it even easier to go infinite or just have absurdly broken turns.
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
Seeing this creation makes me think that Rakdos should remain the general and Grenzo a sidekick. The way you're doing, infinite goblin chains, seems to be the best option. I'm disappointed though. I was hoping for some awesome Rakdos shenanigans.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
I'm talking T1 Lackey, T2 put Goblin Matron into play, T3 play Kikki-Jiki, start tutoring goblins every turn. T1 lackey is pretty nuts in commander; you just start doing things before anyone else.
EDIT: I'm obvi not playing Kiki in Legacy, but that amount of tempo makes me think of legacy.
I've been toying with the idea of using Grenzo in Rakdos as its another way to cheat creatures into play.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
bringer of red dawn
bringer of black dawn
kokusho the evening star
ryusei the falling star
rorix bladewing
visera the vengeful
avatar of woe
helldozer
infero titan
grave titan
eater of hopes
filth
anger
kiku the night flower
akira the earth asunder(forget the name)
royal assassin
bone shredder
nekrataal
these are just a few that I think are very good. certainly more room to expound on the list.
I think making Grenzo a huge creature can be interesting, but having him be a threat when you cast him lategame for just 3 or 4 mana seems good.
Haven't drawn Heartstone yet, looking forward to it.
I'm not sure whether I like running a tribal build or just one that abuses cards like Nekrataal, Shriekmaw, etc with strong etbs. I think a tribal deck might be better suited to having Wort as the general but that could be wrong.
I´ve made my grenzo edh with arcbounds and anything 0/0 that enters with counters on it (pentavus, triskellion, etc) + artifacts with trample or flying.
plus tel-jilad, reito, junk troller, sodevi digger, darksteel pendant, jar of eyeballs, crystal ball.
then just filled the open slots with utility cards like stingmoggie, goblin setller, notorious assassin, and some discar/sac outlets.
You could do this with Relentless Rats as well although that seems like it would be less fun.
Standard: Mono Red #GetSwol
Elsewhere: Random Brews All Day, Erreday
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