Ok, I understand and think you are on the right track pulling the Meekfoundary pieces. We did have a lot of moving parts with the changes. You proposed these four changes for the Meek/Foundary pieces:
Negate or Dispel
Anguished Unmaking
Grim Tutor (I think Im gonna man up and go buy this)
Thoughtseize/Duress
We also discussed:
Mirrorpool > Refelcting Pool
Tolaria West > Island
There was mention of including Expedition Map (advocated by Ajacobik) but not which card it would replace. Timetwister and Imperial Seal would be auto includes in an optimized list. Serum Visions was listed as the weakest of the draw spells. Could we go:
1. Timetwister > Meekfoundary #1
2. Imperial Seal > " #2
3. Grim Tutor > " #3
4. Anguished Unmaking > " #4
5. Expedition Map (instead of Stifle) > Serum Visions
6. Negate > Tainted Pact (inclusion of Tolaria West plus tutors)
7. Mirror Pool > Reflecting Pool
8. Tolaria West > Island
These are in addition to your other changes:
- Oblation
- Serum Visions
- Orzhov Signet
+ Vindicate
+ Stifle (or Expedition Map pending your approval)
+ Fellwar Stone
Testing the Map over Stifle could work. I don't know if th ET caluse of Mirrorpool is worth it, but I'm going to test it, maybe replacing a nonland. So my replacements for the 4 pieces might be
Expedition Map (if it works)
Imperial Seal
Anguished Unmaking
Thoughtseize
From here you have advocated:
Grim Tutor > Fabricate
We have one card left over from the orginal three card change:
Timetwister > Serum Visions
That leaves us with:
Vindicate > Oblation
Fellwar Stone > Orzhov Signet
Tolaria West > Island
Do you think we the addition tutors of Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Expedition
Map and Tolaria West (land, Pact of Negation, Mana Crypt) Tainted Pact is a possible cut? If so that opens up:
Mirror Pool, Negate/Dispel, or Stifle > Tainted Pact
I prefer to keep Tainted Pact in, it's pretty great. Tolaria West won't be making it into my list. 3 mana for such a small tutor window seems bad, especially since I can't roll with it opening hand, which is super important. I supposed Seal could replace pact when the day comes in instead of removing a control spell coming in.
Looking over the tier .5 decks like Grixis Storm and Zur Doomsday I've drawn some conclusions of where the deck will be going in the future.
As of right now, they are playing 4 less lands than I am. So, an additional 4 (or even 3) slots to devote to control or reinforcing combo (Blasting Station might be a good idea to reinforce that end of the combo and be able to lean on an artifact since right now we have creature/sorcery) sounds too good to be true. In addition, it may be time to cut the expensive draw spells outside of AN. I actually don't recall the last time I really used Memory Jar or Necrologia. Cutting both will probably come before land cuts.
I'm also super interested in at least testing High Tide for ramp. The deck is literally blue/black that needs to produce a white mana once. I think its at least worth testing. I've had great success in using it as a mid game ramp spell in a deck devoted to winning with it, so I'd imagine netting 2 mana off it would make it another Dark Ritual, and unless it's to cast an early Dark Confidant, the black mana never really mattered since my produce any color lands make up for w/e color I need.
Either way, this deck is getting an overhaul it hasn't in like, 2 years. I am pretty excited.
the meekfoundry pieces will still come out (for now) for the cards listed prior, but for now I'm Testing cards from Zur DD that could work here, and probably always should have been in here. I only have one Baby Jace and it's been so hard to cut him from one to another. I'm kicking myself for looking to Sharuum lists for ideas and not other combo decks. I think the next big card to grab will be Timetwister
edit: Orzhov Signet will def be taking one of the land slots. Seems smarter to go with it and Fellwar Stone than one rock and a land.
I never cut Orzhov Signet. I have the Skuloth Zur deck built and have some working knowledge of Moxnix's Jeleva Grixis Storm deck. Both play as many mana rocks as they can. Both play Timetwister as well.
I have not been as active on the Sharuum threads. I do check here to see if you have updated your deck list.
Ya, I'm hung up on the lack of a wheel...probably should've invested in that over Candelabra, but who knows. If I can pull off High Tide, that'll fit right in.
I'm going to update within the week. I want to see how a lower land count works first. I've cut two lands (down to 31) and Thopter Assembly as well as Necrologia and Oblation I can do a more serious sit down when I have my cards around me. A few cards I need are back home with my brother and our collection.
So the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to cut Memory Jar. Casting Sharuum should only be for the win, meaning recurring this isn't an option. If I want to keep the same idea I think Time Spiral is leagues better. Otherwise I need to cut costs here. The cmc cuts for AN are soooooo noticeable. I was treating it sort of like mana costs I guess, where the big jumps were only at 4,5, and 6. But cutting those 3 cmc for ones (like oblation -> Chain of Vapor make sooooo much a difference.
If you had to replace workshop for something what would it be? =)
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Probably City of Brass, cards like that are coming out only because Im testing how fluid it could be to change the deck over to High Tide. As of now, save maybe Vampiric tutor, I only need blue mana from Lands. With all the mana rocks it's easy to pick up a missing color, black rituals, the fact we only need 1-3 white mana per game (usually one tbh)...all of this makes it the High Tide Ramp package viable. I've been looking at Skuloth's Zur Doomsday list on tapped out and got the inspiration there. It was also the reason I decided to cut costs and invest in a bigger Ad Nauseam. It actually does work wonders, I kept track of mana difference in cards switched out and I was saving 10-12 life on exchanges like Oblation leaving for Chain of Vapor etc, which doesnt include the life I saved cutting the dramatically expensive cards like Necrologia.
Also, rather large update to the list I apparently didn't fix here. Sadly I don't have my deck with me as I've been on vacation, but to summarize:
The meek foundry combo is out, as well as anything that was 5 cmc + aside from AN. In their place are the cheapest forms of counter and control, like Spell Pierce and Silence I had to wait (FOR A YEAR) before I was allowed to break this out and a meta in equal power was formed and I've had to speed it up even more.
Reasons for the changes: Meek Foundry was an investment in late game in case of things like a small Bitter Ordeal or if things went wrong, but on paper I realized in enough cases it wasn't enough regardless. They were always clunky and their biggest use was the colored pieces feeding that 0 cmc mana rock...
Cutting the 5 cmc draw/tutors (Necrologia, Tezz, Memory Jar) wasn't just to let me get greedier with AN. All of them kind of have the mantra of "setting myself up to win next turn" which at this stage is awful. Tapping out 5 mana at sorcery speed and not winning just isnt worth it. The only reason I'm running Sharuum over Skuloth's Zur (aside rose tinted glasses) is the fact we can win the game by resolving a 6 cmc spell, we really don't want to have to tap out the turn before.
Now that I've said all that though, these were that parts (at least the Foundry, Tez, and Memory Jar) are the core of what sets her build so much far west of the usually AN build. However, the amazing power of Artificer's Intuition with the bonus of setting up Lotus Bloom + Bitter Ordeal or discarding a clone is what makes it still feel very Sharuum.
Long overdue update. Deck is performing much more Optionally. A few tweaks are probably needed, but this is a comfortable build that deserves extensive testing. For those still following, this list was a massive improvement over the other.
Random question - is the list on the front page your current build? Thanks!
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No....But I'll update this now...it's made a lot of changes, I've learned a lot from Moxnix's Grixis Storm and Skuloc's Zur AN DD lists. I'm a little disappointed with myself in how obvious some of the choices were. It wasn't til a few months ago I had a meta I could finally play competitive with and I had to drop my curve to stay ahead. It's still a bit in motion being short a few pieces. I'll be adding LED and Timetwister within a few months, and hopefully imperial seal.....before summer. After that I think it'll be done, but then have some interchangeable pieces.
Edit: changes were
Reflecting pool replaced with Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth: Not gonna lie I have no idea how this stayed in so long. Really bad opening land, especially now that we run High Tide.
Pact of Negation replaced with Unsubstantiate: Took the switch from Mox's list. I questioned this at first, but honestly now that I cant Tainted Pact I don't mind testing it. Creature/spell bounce is an awesome pair up
Transmute Artifact replaced with Pull from Eternity: This change was actually swords to plow but I rarely have to target a single creature...I'm more comfortable with that. Transmute is awesome but has always been an Entomb, which I was gonna cut anyways. I like pull because I can actually just go for a combo to get players to crack Tormod's Crypt and then comboing again without tutoring/casting/getting the other piece in the yard. I'm lucky enough to be the only one running Bitter Ordeal so I've been squeezing out combo redundancy for faster cards/control.
Disciple of the Vault, though still here, may come out some day. The only games it's relevant it's him is if I can tutor that part of the combo and steal a quick win because it's 1 cmc to cast him. It's risky, he doesn't work with Lotus Bloom.
Artificier's Intution is a card that got cut a while ago but was still here....I had an extra card or wrong card in the list I've forgotten now. It's first seat on the bench, I need to work out how viable it is spending mana to set up Lotus Bloom.
going to try testing this. It's super interesting and the pieces required are things I wanted to test like eggs and KCI. I'm going to test a few games and then try a hybrid and see which direction I want to lean in. Cutting the three amigos Dark ConfidantSnapcaster Mage and Baby Jace sounds super painful, specially since I just got that special black Jace....but it's all for the good of Sharuum.
Long overdue update. High Tide only went off as a win-more, or took out some of my tutoring. As of now I don't think its needed, but that could soon change. Interested in testing City of Traitors and Sunken Ruins. Given it's pretty insane to take a hand with 1 land, I think it'd be a bit easier to deal with either in opener
I am actually finally getting to that with all my decks this weekend. I'm doign my last essay of the college career- so I can finally devote the time to magic :]
Hey, A card by card breakdown, and it only took me 5 years! More coming soon, like benched cards, what's coming in and probably going out, and a proper connection with the Four Horseman list involving Torrential Gearhulk (gotta track down and credit the guy first) It's sad to say Jack's Sharuum list has become a ghost town, but it was hard to get anyone to really to debate about the combo focused list. Hopefully can use this to breathe life back into his list, as well as sending love anywhere I can for Sharuum. We still have an artifact heavy spoiler season ahead of us, so hopefully she sees some more creative lists.
Negate or Dispel
Anguished Unmaking
Grim Tutor (I think Im gonna man up and go buy this)
Thoughtseize/Duress
We also discussed:
Mirrorpool > Refelcting Pool
Tolaria West > Island
There was mention of including Expedition Map (advocated by Ajacobik) but not which card it would replace. Timetwister and Imperial Seal would be auto includes in an optimized list. Serum Visions was listed as the weakest of the draw spells. Could we go:
1. Timetwister > Meekfoundary #1
2. Imperial Seal > " #2
3. Grim Tutor > " #3
4. Anguished Unmaking > " #4
5. Expedition Map (instead of Stifle) > Serum Visions
6. Negate > Tainted Pact (inclusion of Tolaria West plus tutors)
7. Mirror Pool > Reflecting Pool
8. Tolaria West > Island
These are in addition to your other changes:
- Oblation
- Serum Visions
- Orzhov Signet
+ Vindicate
+ Stifle (or Expedition Map pending your approval)
+ Fellwar Stone
or
I think ideally we want to be playing
Expedition Map (if it works)
Imperial Seal
Anguished Unmaking
Thoughtseize
Grim Tutor will prob come in too, plan has been to try it over Fabricate because it's becoming less and less dependent on needing a specific artifact.
Edit: oh wait, Timetwister....
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Expedition Map (if it works)
Imperial Seal
Anguished Unmaking
Thoughtseize
From here you have advocated:
Grim Tutor > Fabricate
We have one card left over from the orginal three card change:
Timetwister > Serum Visions
That leaves us with:
Vindicate > Oblation
Fellwar Stone > Orzhov Signet
Tolaria West > Island
Do you think we the addition tutors of Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Expedition
Map and Tolaria West (land, Pact of Negation, Mana Crypt) Tainted Pact is a possible cut? If so that opens up:
Mirror Pool, Negate/Dispel, or Stifle > Tainted Pact
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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As of right now, they are playing 4 less lands than I am. So, an additional 4 (or even 3) slots to devote to control or reinforcing combo (Blasting Station might be a good idea to reinforce that end of the combo and be able to lean on an artifact since right now we have creature/sorcery) sounds too good to be true. In addition, it may be time to cut the expensive draw spells outside of AN. I actually don't recall the last time I really used Memory Jar or Necrologia. Cutting both will probably come before land cuts.
I'm also super interested in at least testing High Tide for ramp. The deck is literally blue/black that needs to produce a white mana once. I think its at least worth testing. I've had great success in using it as a mid game ramp spell in a deck devoted to winning with it, so I'd imagine netting 2 mana off it would make it another Dark Ritual, and unless it's to cast an early Dark Confidant, the black mana never really mattered since my produce any color lands make up for w/e color I need.
Either way, this deck is getting an overhaul it hasn't in like, 2 years. I am pretty excited.
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- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- City of Brass
+ Baby Jace
+ Chain of Vapor
the meekfoundry pieces will still come out (for now) for the cards listed prior, but for now I'm Testing cards from Zur DD that could work here, and probably always should have been in here. I only have one Baby Jace and it's been so hard to cut him from one to another. I'm kicking myself for looking to Sharuum lists for ideas and not other combo decks. I think the next big card to grab will be Timetwister
edit: Orzhov Signet will def be taking one of the land slots. Seems smarter to go with it and Fellwar Stone than one rock and a land.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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I have not been as active on the Sharuum threads. I do check here to see if you have updated your deck list.
I'm going to update within the week. I want to see how a lower land count works first. I've cut two lands (down to 31) and Thopter Assembly as well as Necrologia and Oblation I can do a more serious sit down when I have my cards around me. A few cards I need are back home with my brother and our collection.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
The meek foundry combo is out, as well as anything that was 5 cmc + aside from AN. In their place are the cheapest forms of counter and control, like Spell Pierce and Silence I had to wait (FOR A YEAR) before I was allowed to break this out and a meta in equal power was formed and I've had to speed it up even more.
Reasons for the changes: Meek Foundry was an investment in late game in case of things like a small Bitter Ordeal or if things went wrong, but on paper I realized in enough cases it wasn't enough regardless. They were always clunky and their biggest use was the colored pieces feeding that 0 cmc mana rock...
Cutting the 5 cmc draw/tutors (Necrologia, Tezz, Memory Jar) wasn't just to let me get greedier with AN. All of them kind of have the mantra of "setting myself up to win next turn" which at this stage is awful. Tapping out 5 mana at sorcery speed and not winning just isnt worth it. The only reason I'm running Sharuum over Skuloth's Zur (aside rose tinted glasses) is the fact we can win the game by resolving a 6 cmc spell, we really don't want to have to tap out the turn before.
Now that I've said all that though, these were that parts (at least the Foundry, Tez, and Memory Jar) are the core of what sets her build so much far west of the usually AN build. However, the amazing power of Artificer's Intuition with the bonus of setting up Lotus Bloom + Bitter Ordeal or discarding a clone is what makes it still feel very Sharuum.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Edit: changes were
Reflecting pool replaced with Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth: Not gonna lie I have no idea how this stayed in so long. Really bad opening land, especially now that we run High Tide.
Pact of Negation replaced with Unsubstantiate: Took the switch from Mox's list. I questioned this at first, but honestly now that I cant Tainted Pact I don't mind testing it. Creature/spell bounce is an awesome pair up
Transmute Artifact replaced with Pull from Eternity: This change was actually swords to plow but I rarely have to target a single creature...I'm more comfortable with that. Transmute is awesome but has always been an Entomb, which I was gonna cut anyways. I like pull because I can actually just go for a combo to get players to crack Tormod's Crypt and then comboing again without tutoring/casting/getting the other piece in the yard. I'm lucky enough to be the only one running Bitter Ordeal so I've been squeezing out combo redundancy for faster cards/control.
Disciple of the Vault, though still here, may come out some day. The only games it's relevant it's him is if I can tutor that part of the combo and steal a quick win because it's 1 cmc to cast him. It's risky, he doesn't work with Lotus Bloom.
Artificier's Intution is a card that got cut a while ago but was still here....I had an extra card or wrong card in the list I've forgotten now. It's first seat on the bench, I need to work out how viable it is spending mana to set up Lotus Bloom.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
going to try testing this. It's super interesting and the pieces required are things I wanted to test like eggs and KCI. I'm going to test a few games and then try a hybrid and see which direction I want to lean in. Cutting the three amigos Dark Confidant Snapcaster Mage and Baby Jace sounds super painful, specially since I just got that special black Jace....but it's all for the good of Sharuum.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Out
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU