This is a spin-off of my first Karametra deck, Karametra, God of Armageddon. This deck runs with the same Armageddon-based premise, but with an Elfball focus.
Mana dorks were always the best cards in Karametra. The ability to always be able to immediately jump back into a game after Armageddon and get Karametra in play as soon as possible are both vital to this sort of deck.
The old version is a lot of fun, but is a bit too control-y. Not having the best tutors yet focusing on such a small core of non creature cards resulted in games that are too inconsistent for my liking. With a heavier focus on creature combo the tutoring becomes much easier and winning is possible even without seeing one Armageddon the whole game. Well that's the idea, at least.
Yes, this deck has a Wish board. I'm still tuning it to my exact needs, but basically I can put hard to tutor/situational cards here so the main deck can remain more focused.
I feel like I need more Regrowth effects, but I need some cuts first. I'm hoping the new creature focus will lessen the need for constant Armageddons.
I'm not sure Living Plane is as good in this version as the other. More Wraths make it better, but my heavier creature focus makes Wraths worse.
Heritage Druid is not in because I feel like she doesn't do a whole lot considering most of my elves already make mana.
I'm looking for any opinions, criticism, and thoughts as I try to tune this to be as competitive as I can. I don't believe Armageddon.dec is the most powerful use of Karametra, but I do think it crushes the other versions of her.
I have 2 free slots. I'm thinking they should be Wirewood Channeler and Seedcradle Witch, but I'm not sure.
Finally have this version of the deck sleeved. Made a bunch of changes and cuts. I have 2 free spaces, presently. I'd love some criticism and opinions.
Craterhoof Behemoth has already proven vital, I'm just not sure what to cut. Green Sun's Zenith and Genesis Wave have filled the two empty slots.
I absolutely disagree about Abundance. It is one of green's greatest tools for smoothing draws and providing consistency. This is a deck that can draw a lot of cards in a turn with things like Whitemane Lion and Glimpse of Nature. Always drawing what I need and never what I don't is much better than three cards at the upkeep which I'll immediately shuffle away.
Aluren is something I've gone back and forth on a bunch. On the one hand, I can draw my whole deck and/or get all my basics out of the deck. On the other, it helps everybody and I don't have a non-combat way to truly take advantage of my infinite storm count.
I've found Global Ruin to be mostly good. It definitely feels like one of the worst among my options, but my options are so limited that I feel I need to take what I can get as often as possible. The deck no longer requires constant Armageddons, but it still functions more adequately if it can continuously use them to gain board advantage.
PS: Fleetfoot Panther is in the Wishboard. Stonecloaker and Whitemane are sufficient in the main since Glittering Wish and Living Wish both can grab Panther whenever I need him.
Every tutor takes away from a part of the deck that makes it work otherwise. There are very few cards that I could reasonably cut.
If I added anything it would be Natural Order (and Dryad Arbor). Birthing Pod is too awkward due to my curve. I spent three hours going through every elf to see if I could reasonably make a Pod chain work. Decided it's not worth the effort versus something like NO or Wave. Defense of the Heart is too slow and dependent on my opponents. Summoner's Pact was originally cut because I didn't have any decent green bombs. It's better now, but still not better than NO and I still need a cut if I want to include it. Fauna Shaman is just too slow when I can run Survival and win the turn after I cast it. Tooth and Nail is pretty good, but it's very expensive. This version of the deck has a better chance of playing it than the previous one, but it doesn't actually seem better than NO in this list. Entwine T&N, go get Craterhoof and Elesh Norn, I guess?
Gift and Mystic are FAR too narrow. Crossroads is miles better than Greaves in this deck. Being able to suit up Karametra is nice, and I have found myself wishing I had Greaves, but Crossroads is definitely not the card that comes out.
The real problem in testing has been running out of gas in the late game. That's why Genesis Wave has been added. It's no less a dead draw early game than T&N and is potentially MUCH more explosive late game (when I need it). Even getting a Craterhoof and Norn is not that great if it's my only board presence. The deck doesn't have too many other things that get well set up with T&N. Wave even for 4 is phenomenal in this deck.
EDIT: I feel like my Wishboard could use a little tightening.
Every tutor gives you access to key cards and effectively shrinks the size of your deck. If the card is strong enough, you won't mind having a tutor that only fetches that one thing. This is a combo deck, it needs tutors. You'll pretty much be outraced by any deck with more tutors than you because they have consistency. Stoneforge and Steelshapers gift aren't too narrow because they allow you to get those vital equipments into hand more games. They make your deck more consistent. If something isn't vital enough to warrant tutors in your mind, consider cutting it.
Defense of the Heart is definitely more defensive in the fact that it often acts a soft lock, preventing your opponent's from playing more creatures. But its power level is right up there with Tooth and Nail because it fetches two things and puts them directly into play. If you build around it, this should be game winning. It's worth noting that you can force it to pop with Forbidden Orchard.
Because you have access to green creature tutors I would run Oracle of Mul Daya over Exploration most definitely. You could also try something like Sakura-tribe Scout. Running creatures over non-creatures where possible will increase synergy. Sakura-Tribe Scout can be Skullclamped or buffed by Craterhoof and will trigger your commander's ability. Exploration will not.
Tooth and Nail is in whole different league than Genesis Wave. TN has the potentially to consistently and single handedly win you the game by fetching two combo pieces. Wave does not. I think you are aiming your sights too low here. Guiness tastes good to those who have never tried a real microbrewed stout.
Another solid creature tutor that will probably work well with your build is Fierce Empath.
If you are running out of gas lategame, that means you don't have enough card draw. Tutors would also help. For card draw in GW I can only recommend focusing on Skullclamp as your primary draw engine and including the means to tutor for it. But to use it efficiently you really need to minimize the number of vanilla creatures that can't be clamped and increase the number of token producers even more. The best ones I can think of for your deck that you aren't already running are Emeria Angel, Precinct Captain, Rhys the Redeemed, Hero of Bladehold, and Aura Mutation but there are others. Taking the deck toward a more token based strategy will make Craterhoof that much more viable as a win con. The self-producing token makers like Hero of Bladehold are also awesome with land destruction since they can quickly become a problem for your opponents if not answered.
Also, I'm going to quirk an eyebrow at your wishboard thing. It's really unneeded, and unless your playgroup commonly plays with wishes I would just omit it. Having a sideboard is nice, but it shows me your deck just isn't as focused as it could be. You are trying to squeeze too many cards into the deck. The core of a competitive deck is actually very few cards. Everything else is redundancy, enablers, and protection - that is ramp, tutors, card draw, and removal/control. Something that can be a good exercise is to artificially limit yourself to 60 cards or even 40. That helps you really define what the core of the deck actually is. When you go back to the 99, everything extra is redundancy and enablers. Another thing I do is split the deck in half and have it play against itself. ULTIMATE GOLDFISHING! This just shows you if you've got enough redundancy and if your curve is good.
You should take a look at my pedigree before you posit to understand a competitive meta game more astutely. If you bothered to read a single thought I wrote you'd be aware that I acknowledged this is not the most competitive way to play the deck, I'm trying to make this version of the deck as competitive as I can. Elfball, land destruction. Exa fly as I spelled out.
Suggesting cutting Exploration shows a patent lack of understanding of how the deck works. Getting Karametra into play as early as possible is essential to any version of this deck.
You also are suggesting removing the core of the deck and making it an extremely mundane ramp deck.
T&N is a better card than GW, that was not my contention. Getting to 7 mana is not always viable, let alone 9. The curve of this deck is absolutely vital to its performance. Cutting lower cost spells for higher cost raises my curve. Raising my curve slows my board development.
This is an aggro deck with a combo finish. Not the other way around. Admittedly the name is a touch confusing, but its the easiest way to express it in one word.
I understand what you are doing with the deck. I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that I was missing the point. I'm going to make one last attempt to connect with you here.
Karametra, God of Harvests is a resource engine that needs creatures entering the battlefield to feed it. What better creatures to trigger the ability than creatures who themselves tap for mana. Elves. And so the Elf ball came into being. Which is such a terribly strong web of synergies and infinite combos that you almost don't need anything else. With this much resource advantage it only makes sense to deny your opponent's resources with your Armageddons and further tip the battlefield in your favor.
I get it. It's strong. That's why I'm here. I won't even comment on most decks posted here because they don't pique my interest. They don't tug at my competitive heartstrings. Yours did, so I posted, hoping to fulfill your request of making the deck more competitive.
The reason I discuss my deck building philosophy as part of my critique is that all of my recommendations stem from that. I want people to know the reasons for what I'm suggesting. It's easy to miss the value of certain cards without that core understanding. I also believe that posting a lot of individual swaps amounts to hand holding and that's way too much effort on my part. I'd rather get down to the wheels and cogs of the deck and let the card swaps come naturally from that.
If you bothered to read a single thought I wrote you'd be aware that I acknowledged this is not the most competitive way to play the deck, I'm trying to make this version of the deck as competitive as I can.
Soooo, the elf ball version is weaker than the non-elf ball version that you originally linked to? That's not the impression I got in your original post, and I can say that elf ball is extremely strong. Looking over your first list, the new elf ball list is definitely an improvement. It has more synergy. So again, I'm confused.
You also are suggesting removing the core of the deck and making it an extremely mundane ramp deck.
This statement boggles my mind completely. What exactly do you consider to be the core of your deck? Nothing I've suggested would take away from your core strategy as I've outlined above. You've got your elf ball and your Armageddons. That's all you really need to win. As for turning it into a mundane ramp deck??? The only ramp related suggestion I made was cutting non-creature based ramp for creature based ramp. Specifically Oracle of Mul Daya and Sakura-Tribe Scout. Both of these are a far cry from a Rampant Growth. Oracle makes a lot sense because you are running an above average number of lands already. Since you don't have access to blue or black effects, you need to gain card advantage any way you can. Oracle is an excellent way to do that in green.
Suggesting cutting Exploration shows a patent lack of understanding of how the deck works. Getting Karametra into play as early as possible is essential to any version of this deck.
Exploration is good, but I'm saying that something like Sakura-Tribe Scout might be even better for the reasons I stated. It's not an elf, but neither is Exploration. At least the scout is a creature which triggers your commander and gives you the other bonus uses that I already stated.
T&N is a better card than GW, that was not my contention. Getting to 7 mana is not always viable, let alone 9. The curve of this deck is absolutely vital to its performance. Cutting lower cost spells for higher cost raises my curve. Raising my curve slows my board development.
G-wave usually takes as much mana as T and N to be effective, so it sits at the top of your curve either way. I see G-wave as casting a fishing line into a lake and crossing your fingers that something good will bite. Sometimes it's good sometimes it's not. TN is a laser guided nuclear missile. Yes, it costs a lot of mana but it should win you the game 99% of the time. If it doesn't, then don't use it. I certainly understand why are cautious of running it. You plan to Armageddon the field multiple times a game, so indeed it might not be the best option. Worldly Tutor or Sylvan Tutor are good, despite the card disadvantage. Natural Order is of course probably much much better even than TN if you don't have any 2 card infinite combos, but it's also a high-blingage card. Considering that G-wave was thrown in as one of the last 2 free spots tells me it's not that necessary to your plan anyway. Keep it if you want, I'm done discussing it.
Something that I would highly recommend doing is organizing your list by function instead of type. It's a lot more useful to see what's going on in the deck. Where you are lacking in redundancy. I usually order the cards in ascending order of cmc after that.
I'm going to leave it at that for now, but put yourself in my shoes for a second. Here I am, coming to your thread hoping to give you some fresh ideas and ways to trim the fat, writing posts that sometimes take me 30-45 minutes to put together and what do you give me in return? Not an intelligent discussion, but a smack in the face without much reason at all. You don't even seem to be really reading what I'm saying. It's like you latch on to one thing I say and spin it into a little fantasy that has nothing to do with what I'm really talking about. It's downright insulting.
I challenge YOU to take the time to actually quote some things that I suggested and directly reply to them. Give me a worthy discussion. You don't have to agree, but I'd like to see your logic. Otherwise, do me a favor and tell me to stop wasting my time here. If you don't want me here, I certainly don't want to be here. Just say the word.
I come in here hoping to learn new things too. I'm certainly not always right - no one is. I haven't actually played the deck like you have, but I have played this game A LOT - enough to know a few things that can be applied universally.
Gma, I understand that you don't really want to thin your deck from excessive lands (hence no fetches in your decklist), but you should run at least Windswept Heath - it's in both of your colors, it fixes your mana, it provides you a shuffle effect for Mirri's Guile/Sensei's Divining Top/Sylvan Library/Oracle of Mul Daya and provides you landfall triggers for Avenger of Zendikar/Emeria Angel/Primeval Bounty.
Soooo, the elf ball version is weaker than the non-elf ball version that you originally linked to? That's not the impression I got in your original post, and I can say that elf ball is extremely strong. Looking over your first list, the new elf ball list is definitely an improvement. It has more synergy. So again, I'm confused.
No, the Elfball version is not as strong as the straight combo/ramp decks that everyone and their mom built when K-meat was spoiled. This version, IMO, is leagues better than my original one. What this list offers in exchange for the raw power of more popular lists is (at the time of construction) an entirely unique premise with a skill intensive set of goals and synergies. It also destroys those other versions, which I find particularly amusing.
This statement boggles my mind completely. What exactly do you consider to be the core of your deck? Nothing I've suggested would take away from your core strategy as I've outlined above. You've got your elf ball and your Armageddons. That's all you really need to win. As for turning it into a mundane ramp deck??? The only ramp related suggestion I made was cutting non-creature based ramp for creature based ramp. Specifically Oracle of Mul Daya and Sakura-Tribe Scout. Both of these are a far cry from a Rampant Growth. Oracle makes a lot sense because you are running an above average number of lands already. Since you don't have access to blue or black effects, you need to gain card advantage any way you can. Oracle is an excellent way to do that in green.
The problem is those suggestions slow down my clock. For this deck to function in playing a fair(ish) game of EDH, it needs to be blisteringly fast. Oracle of Mul Daya could make it's way back into the deck with all the changes I've made, but she is not at all effective for powering out Karametra. Sakura Tribescout is better late-game because it will get me one extra land, but it's worse early game. I can't go Turn 1 Sakura Tribe Scout, Krosan Verge to set up for a huge turn three. Nor can I play a Scout and a Llanowar Elf or a Scout and an Amulet of Vigor. The first three turns of this deck are usually the most important. Once Karametra is on the battlefield, then the deck can start winning the game. This deck needs turn 1-3 explosion, it does not need another non-elf to fetch one extra land.
I believed your comment about cutting vanilla creatures was referring to things like Lys Alana Huntmaster and Elvish Champion. Going through your newer comments it seems like you are more referencing things like 'Lark combo.
Exploration is good, but I'm saying that something like Sakura-Tribe Scout might be even better for the reasons I stated. It's not an elf, but neither is Exploration. At least the scout is a creature which triggers your commander and gives you the other bonus uses that I already stated.
See paragraph above. TL;DR: This deck needs the extra land on the battlefield early game that Exploration provides, not an extra turn late game when Scout is drawn. Exploration also helps with Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine.
G-wave usually takes as much mana as T and N to be effective, so it sits at the top of your curve either way. I see G-wave as casting a fishing line into a lake and crossing your fingers that something good will bite. Sometimes it's good sometimes it's not. TN is a laser guided nuclear missile. Yes, it costs a lot of mana but it should win you the game 99% of the time. If it doesn't, then don't use it. I certainly understand why are cautious of running it. You plan to Armageddon the field multiple times a game, so indeed it might not be the best option. Worldly Tutor or Sylvan Tutor are good, despite the card disadvantage. Natural Order is of course probably much much better even than TN if you don't have any 2 card infinite combos, but it's also a high-blingage card. Considering that G-wave was thrown in as one of the last 2 free spots tells me it's not that necessary to your plan anyway. Keep it if you want, I'm done discussing it.
I believe Tooth and Nail to be one of the greatest green cards in this format. I really don't think it's a contest. I test with T&N in mind 100% of the time I build a green deck. It was one of only 3 non-creatures over 3 CMC I played in my Gaddock Teeg deck because it's so hilariously busted. I simply don't think it's a feasible play in this deck. It's much better now than in the previous version and G-Waves slot will always be contested.
Something that I would highly recommend doing is organizing your list by function instead of type. It's a lot more useful to see what's going on in the deck. Where you are lacking in redundancy. I usually order the cards in ascending order of cmc after that. [/card]
This is actually how I build every deck. I open a blank notepad, identify key elements, then flesh out each facet. The problem is my first step after the skeleton is done is to import it into TappedOut to get a visual representation of my mana, curve, card types, etc. Since it's so easy to edit on TO I usually abandon the text file after I start making cuts.
As far as the wishboard is concerned, it's actually pretty hyper focused. Overrun is a card that will win games in this deck, but it's impossible to tutor. Collective Blessing is like an Overrun that I can tutor. Whitemane Lion and Stonecloaker are both better than Fleetfoot Panther, so two go in the main board and Panther goes in the 'board since both wishes can get it. Behemoth Sledge is probably good enough in this version to main deck if I add Stoneforge and Steelshaper's Gift. The rest of the board are control cards. Cards that will dig me out of a hole if my plan A goes awry. This allows me to waste 2 slots on a "plan b" instead of 10. Admittedly, Dueling Grounds and Sigarda are nowhere near as useful in this version as my other. I definitely feel the wishboard needs tightening, but I believe it is a huge boon to my options over the course of a multiplayer game.
[quote=GMA]
Genesis Wave - in a deck like this it's totally not worth it. I almost never have a meaningful enough amount of mana when I'm closing a game to make this card worth its reliable casting cost (which I think is x>=8).
Originally I had every card that cost more than 5 in my wishboard. Since then I've moved a few higher CMC bombs into the main, thus decreasing the value of small Waves. In this deck, Wave is played as a value spell. It's a draw spell, for all intents and purposes.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking - it's a wasted spot, IMHO. One can easily pull off a 2-3 turn Karametra with just ramp dorks and artifact acceleration. I did have her in my list at the beginnig but one thing occured to me: how many times do I have 2 lands in hand mid game anyway? Close to never.
Azusa is another MUST in this style of deck. First of all, an Azusa on turn 2 is almost a guaranteed turn 3 Karametra (and potentially some other stuff). Secondly, Crucible of Worlds is a thing. Crucible of Worlds is one of the most important cards in this deck, Azusa makes it entirely broken.
Acidic Slime - this dude is so last year ;-) I'm running Reclamation Sage (which is an elf, btw) to deal with artifacts and enchantments. I've got other means to deal with lands (duh!) and the cost and ease of casting it the Sage is unbeatable. Especially when you're back at 1-2 mana and need to kill something.
Acidic Slime is necessary for Reveillark combo. Reclamation Sage is better if I just want to deal with an artifact or enchantment. More often than not, Slime is used to blow up everyone's non-creature permanents. I don't want to play Yosei, the Morning Star in this deck, so Acidic Slime is the next go-to.
Knight of the Reliquary - you won't kill anybody with it and as a tutor he's quite slow. If you absolutely positively need to have that Gaea's Cradle on the board, I'd switch the knight for Crop Rotation, which can easily allow you to play your "K-Meat" much faster early game.
Crop Rotation is great, but it's not a creature. Also, this is a deck that actually focuses on winning through combat a lot of the time. A 20/20 KotR is pretty scary when it's surrounded by a dozen 6/6s. KotR is preferable to Rotation because it's relevant at all points in the game and has many more options.
I definitely feel this deck needs at least a few fetchlands. I was originally playing none, but testing has shown mana distribution to be a little inconsistent. Unfortunately, Rofellos is not really playable since I'm focusing on Armageddon. That's why I'm not playing Elvish Guidance or Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest (though Earthcraft might be good enough on its own). Kamahl is neat with Elesh Norn, but he's too mana intensive for this version of the deck. I'd be better off with Living Plane like my original version.
Cool, thanks for the thoughtful reply Beware. I agree with a lot of what you said, it makes sense. Especially about Exploration. Looking back, I can see that some of my comments were a bit forceful and also happened to be wrong, so my apologies. I've never played this deck, and WG is like the antithesis of what I'm used to playing, so my conviction was a bit unwarranted.
Most of my suggestions are just brainstorming really. For example do I really think Hero of Bladehold is going to make it into the list? Probably not. But it does work well with land destruction and Skullclamp so it was worth mentioning. I do really like Rhys the Redeemed though in this list for clamping purposes and to contribute to your elf ball. The abilities are still a bit mana intensive though for your plan, so it's probably still not good enough.
Another reason I like to list by function is that it makes it easier to critique. 99 cards is just hard to look at. If you had ordered by function I wouldn't have missed some of the more nitty gritty interactions. I always do it, and I like it.
I think I'm going to goldfish your deck as is and then get back to you with some additional thoughts and maybe a deck list of my own. I might end up personally building this deck because it interests me. If not in paper, at least online.
I hope that we can all continue to work together to improve the list. I have a few new ideas I want to test out.
As far as Asuza is concerned, she gets much better with the fetchlands (which I already stated I intend to include). Azusa allows me to go:
Turn 1: Land, Mana dork
Turn 2: Land, Azusa, Land, Land
Turn 3: Karametra
Her sole purpose in the first few turns is to power out Karametra a turn earlier. In the late game she has added value which compounds itself with other synergies. This deck also goes through enough cards in the course of a game that I see Strip Mine a pretty significant percentage of the time. I do agree I could use more ways to get Crucible onto the battlefield, but that's tricky in these colors.
I love Rhys the Redeemed and tried to make him fit a few times. I'm pretty sure he's too mana intensive, but with the addition of Lys Alana Huntmaster and a few more mana elves; he may be playable now.
As for Genesis Wave, this deck isn't necessarily looking to windmill slam big business. As I said, it's a value spell. It allows a board state on the cusp of snowballing to take that last step. I frequently find myself in exactly that scenario. I'm not convinced GWave is the best option, but I think it merits testing and my initial opinion is that it will function more effectively than has been suggested.
Getting KotR huge isn't difficult in an Armageddon heavy game. My real problem is having the mana base be as consistent as I want it to be while still keeping my Forest/Plains count high.
I fished the deck a few times on cockatrice. Wow, fun list you have here. It's really surprising how fast it can bounce back from the land wraths.
Definitely, your lategame is weak. Sometimes I even resorted to topdecking mid-game, but had a really awesome board. A wrath or even a couple of spot removals would have screwed things up. This was pretty frustrating because I NEED CARD DRAW IN MEH LIFE! (says the Izzet player) :|
Tutor and card draw is pretty much the only way to remedy this. Your best draw engine by far is Skullclamp. Especially when you've got something like Lys Alana Huntmaster in play. Mentor of the Meek is a close second. Getting some of these cards into play reliably I think is going to be crucial.
For that I recommend:
Stoneforge Mystic, Steelshaper's Gift - Both Clamp and Umbral Mantle are pretty essential, so I think narrow tutors are worth it. Mystic is a creature so that fits into our plan and should go in first.
Getting certain key creatures into play is still something I think the deck lacks the ability to do. It would be nice if we could get Survival of the Fittest into play every game, but that just isn't going to happen, so I think the redundancy is nice.
Skyshroud Poacher is a little gem I just found on gatherer. I think this might be exactly what we're looking for. It's an elf that tutors other elves directly into play!
There are some other card advantage engines that would be worth a try. Recycle is pretty tempting here. I playtested it and I think we can make it work really well. With Aluren of course, it gets nuts. Overall I really like it for a mid-late game powerhouse. With enough mana we can really plow through the deck. And it can be cheated into play with Academy Rector.
Oracle of Mul Daya may not help you get Karametra into play the first time, but I think it can smooth out our mid to late game. It could go a long way in helping us bounce back quickly from a land wrath.
Another problem I noticed was that I got color screwed in two games. You've got a lot of lands that only produce colorless. Like 9 I think. Probably it was bad luck. I think that adding all seven usable fetchlands would be definitely be smart, so I'm glad you intend on doing that - prices are going to come down, but that's still a lot of dough. With Crucible they are just fantastic.
Cards I don't like in the list: (honestly there aren't many. I can see that everything has a function and it already works pretty well so cuts are going to be difficult)
Selesnya Sanctuary - I've got a beef with these lands, especially in a land destruction deck. Potential for massive massive tempo loss. They just aren't needed IMO.
Restock - 5 mana really tends to be a lot. I think this one can stand to be cut. You've already got a lot of great recursion cards in the list.
Glimpse of Nature - while cheap, this depends on you having creatures in hand which doesn't help with your lategame card draw problems. It's a really bad lategame topdeck. Swapping this out for something like Collective Unconscious, while taking away some burst potential, will help keep you in the game after your hand runs dry.
Stonecloaker, Whitemane Lion, Cloudstone Curio - I know why these are included - they work extremely nicely with etb triggers and your commander, however, my hunch is that they won't be that missed if they get cut. Out of the three, Curio is probably the best since it's a may and can be used multiple times a turn - there's probably an infinite combo I'm spacing out on. I'm kinda on the fence with these guys though. I think I personally would be happier with more tutors or more elves, especially the ones that can go infinite.
Garruk Wildspeaker - on the fence with this one too. I like how he untaps the lands the Karametra provides, but otherwise he's got very little synergy. Amulet of Vigor is just better for that effect. Seedborn Muse?
You've got 37 lands. I think you'd probably be safe with 35 with as much ramping and recursion as you've got. Maybe cut 2 basics for 1 drop mana elves?
Cards I'd like to try (that I haven't mentioned yet, in order of appeal):
Academy Rector - You've got some very key enchantments, so being able to fetch any one of them into play is quite nice. And the nice thing about Rector is that it can be fetched by creature tutors. Mirari's Wake especially wants to be cheated into play, and Aura Shards wants to see play every game as well. As far as sac outlets go, I think you've just got High Market which could be tutored for, but otherwise, Rector will give you some value from a board wipe (and they will happen). Then there's Idyllic Tutor and Sterling Grove
Boreal Druid, Avacyn's Pilgrim - pulled these from gma's list. I think adding more 1 drops elves would be really nice.
Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile - I'm really missing the feeling of security I get from having these in hand. They are efficient responsive answers to A LOT of problems.
Beast Within, Oblation, Retribution of the Meek - these are the next strongest efficient removal spells in these colors that I could think of. I know you are focusing on speed, but in my experience, sometimes you just need an answer to a single threat.
Dryad Arbor, Green Sun's Zenith - I thought you said you already added green sun, but I don't see it in your list. That's definitely the first tutor I would add. Green Sun can grab Dryad Arbor on turn 1 for just G. It's a strong play.
Skyshroud Poacher - This is actually the second creature tutor that I'd add over worldly tutor and the others. Glad I found this.
Hermit Druid - Using your graveyard as a zone of play is such a powerful strategy in commander. Hermit Druid makes all of your recursion cards that much better. Sun Titan, Crucible of Worlds, Reveillark. Hermit Druid can help you bounce back strong after a land wrath. Having Hermit Druid and Sun Titan both out after a wrath would just be really sweet I think.
Wirewood Symbiote - there's a lot of combo potential with this card even though it's a use once. I think it's worth a test run.
Fierce Empath - Gets your commander after a tuck, but also Elesh and Craterhoof if you decide to try it out. I'd only add this if you add craterhoof.
Craterhoof Behemoth - This really is an amazing card, but after playing the deck, my hunch is that you're not going to have enough creatures in play kill the whole table a lot of the time. Still worth giving a go though. I kinda think it would be wiser to focus on going infinite with your elf ball as a win con and slotting in the necessary tutors to make that happen more reliably. Ezuri, Renegade Leader is just a solid mana sink for infinite mana
That pretty much exhausts what I have to say about the deck. I might post my own list here soon. I kinda think that Rhys would be funner for me to play personally, but he's overdone.
I'm going to preface this with saying the TappedOut is the most up to date version of the deck. I'm going to make a few changes (particularly to the mana base) after this post is written. I don't always have the presence of mind to copy it here.
The problem I have with your additions are they are hell on the curve. I agree it needs more late game closing power, but its ability to spring right back from land destruction is dependent on a lower curve.
The bounce creatures are excellent in this deck. Any unused mana immediately propagates itself. They turn Mentor of the Meek into a late game shotgun. With Karametra and Amulet of Vigor it's obscene. Glimpse of Nature is also relevant here.
Amulet of Vigor is also an essential part of Selesnya Sanctuary. It enters the battlefield untapped, netting me two mana, then returns itself to my hand. It's a land that won't be hit by my own land destruction ever. I don't play it out, I keep it in my hand.
Recurring Armageddon effects is difficult in these colors. Restock allows me to consistently fuel my board resets. Recollect could be played, but I think the two extra mana is worthwhile. Especially late game. It could be cut because I might not need as many regrowth effects in this version, but testing has shown it to be pretty handy.
Seedborn Muse is a card I played consistently in previous versions, but it actually doesn't do anything. No really, it does nothing. This deck functions almost exclusively during my turn. Seedborn Muse would only allow me to play Whitemane Lion more often, which wouldn't even be a good idea because I'd risk over extending my mana base. Garruk is a repeatable ramp spell that provides Overruns. That sounds like everything this deck wants.
I want to play Aluren. I'm just not sure if I want to play it badly enough to give that insane effects to my opponents.
Gyre Sage doesn't actually do much because all my elves are the same size/smaller than it. Bloomtender would likely work better. Wirewood Channelers is too much mana. Late game ramp spells are not particularly useful. The deck ramps extremely hard extremely quickly and then tops out its curve and blows up all the lands. A card that accelerates me past 6 mana is not particularly handy. I made a conscious effort to cut expensive ramp spells and focus on strictly the most efficient means of accomplishing my goals. Upping the curve and adding more ramp spells does not seem like the best strategy, to me. It is entirely against the spirit of the deck, beyond my not believing it's more effective.
Recycle is definitely too much mana. I'll try the equipment tutors. They certainly have increased value since adding Lys Alana Huntmaster (a relatively recent addition).
I've played many Hermit Druid decks in my day. Some for degenerate combo, some for graveyard fuel, and some for strict value. I'm not convinced that's where this deck wants to be. My old Gaddock Teeg deck loved Hermit Druid and Bazaar of Baghdad to feed its graveyard, set up 'Lark combo, and ensure consistent land drops. This is not a 'Lark combo deck. The 'Lark combo is honestly there as a last ditch effort. Everything else has failed, nuke everyone. Graveyard hate is also at an all-time high. The quality of graveyard hate spells is only going to go up in the future. I already make use of my graveyard as a resource, as soon as I become dependent on it this deck is exposed to a whole new world of hate that it actually can't fight against.
I originally had every one drop mana dork I could cram into it. The number I've settled on was the result of testing. Adding more of these guys is absolutely counter to our goal of increasing late game power. They may be Skullclamp fodder, but there are better ways to generate that.
Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger are both very good. I would like to get them involved. Symbiote much more than Ranger, in spite of its non-elf typing.
Spot removal is great to have. I'm not convinced there are enough things this deck fears to warrant the space. What sorts of creatures does this deck truly fear? These cards are reactive when this deck needs to focus on being proactive as much as possible. Taking out 1 creature is not ever really useful (except for Elesh Norn). Retribution of the Meek has been added and cut more times than any other card in this deck, I think. I'd like to make room for it.
I would play Sterling Grove over Idyllic Tutor or Academy Rector. Needing to pack more sac outlets into this deck is awkward and the mana cost is not ideal. Sterling Grove has the additional bonus of protecting my enchantments when I draw it late game and don't need it. I'm thinking Sterling Grove would do pretty well in my Wish board. Definitely better than Dueling Grounds.
Mana dorks were always the best cards in Karametra. The ability to always be able to immediately jump back into a game after Armageddon and get Karametra in play as soon as possible are both vital to this sort of deck.
The old version is a lot of fun, but is a bit too control-y. Not having the best tutors yet focusing on such a small core of non creature cards resulted in games that are too inconsistent for my liking. With a heavier focus on creature combo the tutoring becomes much easier and winning is possible even without seeing one Armageddon the whole game. Well that's the idea, at least.
1x Karametra, God of Harvests
Creature (28)
1x Acidic Slime
1x Arbor Elf
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Elvish Archdruid
1x Elvish Harbinger
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Gaea's Herald
1x Imperious Perfect
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Karmic Guide
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Lys Alana Huntmaster
1x Mentor of the Meek
1x Mirror Entity
1x Priest of Titania
1x Reveillark
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Stonecloaker
1x Sun Titan
1x Whitemane Lion
Artifact (9)
1x Amulet of Vigor
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
1x Umbral Mantle
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dust Bowl
1x Flagstones of Trokair
11x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x High Market
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
1x Krosan Verge
1x Mistveil Plains
8x Plains
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Savannah
1x Secluded Steppe
1x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Strip Mine
1x Temple Garden
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Wasteland
1x Wirewood Lodge
Sorcery (12)
1x Armageddon
1x Austere Command
1x Cataclysm
1x Catastrophe
1x Glimpse of Nature
1x Glittering Wish
1x Global Ruin
1x Life from the Loam
1x Living Wish
1x Ravages of War
1x Regrowth
1x Restock
Instant (3)
1x Chord of Calling
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
Enchantment (7)
1x Abundance
1x Aura Shards
1x Concordant Crossroads
1x Exploration
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
Wishboard (10)
1x Behemoth Sledge
1x Collective Blessing
1x Dueling Grounds
1x Fleetfoot Panther
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Glare of Subdual
1x Grand Abolisher
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Privileged Position
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Maybeboard (11)
1x Copperhorn Scout
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Living Plane
1x Masked Admirers
1x Obelisk of Urd
1x Primordial Sage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1x Seedcradle Witch
1x Sylvan Messenger
1x Wirewood Channeler
Yes, this deck has a Wish board. I'm still tuning it to my exact needs, but basically I can put hard to tutor/situational cards here so the main deck can remain more focused.
I feel like I need more Regrowth effects, but I need some cuts first. I'm hoping the new creature focus will lessen the need for constant Armageddons.
I'm not sure Living Plane is as good in this version as the other. More Wraths make it better, but my heavier creature focus makes Wraths worse.
Heritage Druid is not in because I feel like she doesn't do a whole lot considering most of my elves already make mana.
I'm looking for any opinions, criticism, and thoughts as I try to tune this to be as competitive as I can. I don't believe Armageddon.dec is the most powerful use of Karametra, but I do think it crushes the other versions of her.
I have 2 free slots. I'm thinking they should be Wirewood Channeler and Seedcradle Witch, but I'm not sure.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/karametra-burning-yavimaya/
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I absolutely disagree about Abundance. It is one of green's greatest tools for smoothing draws and providing consistency. This is a deck that can draw a lot of cards in a turn with things like Whitemane Lion and Glimpse of Nature. Always drawing what I need and never what I don't is much better than three cards at the upkeep which I'll immediately shuffle away.
Aluren is something I've gone back and forth on a bunch. On the one hand, I can draw my whole deck and/or get all my basics out of the deck. On the other, it helps everybody and I don't have a non-combat way to truly take advantage of my infinite storm count.
I've found Global Ruin to be mostly good. It definitely feels like one of the worst among my options, but my options are so limited that I feel I need to take what I can get as often as possible. The deck no longer requires constant Armageddons, but it still functions more adequately if it can continuously use them to gain board advantage.
PS: Fleetfoot Panther is in the Wishboard. Stonecloaker and Whitemane are sufficient in the main since Glittering Wish and Living Wish both can grab Panther whenever I need him.
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Generally speaking, decreasing the number of non-essential creatures and increasing your tutor count will make your list more competitive.
Steelshaper's Gift and Stoneforge Mystic could both be run to get Umbral Mantle or Skullclamp. Lightning Greaves is another card I would definitely add to this list, maybe even over Concordant Crossroads. Granting haste to your elves that have to tap to make mana is really useful, and since your deck is creature dependent, it's also not a bad idea to protect your investments.
Tutors are awesome
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My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
If I added anything it would be Natural Order (and Dryad Arbor). Birthing Pod is too awkward due to my curve. I spent three hours going through every elf to see if I could reasonably make a Pod chain work. Decided it's not worth the effort versus something like NO or Wave. Defense of the Heart is too slow and dependent on my opponents. Summoner's Pact was originally cut because I didn't have any decent green bombs. It's better now, but still not better than NO and I still need a cut if I want to include it. Fauna Shaman is just too slow when I can run Survival and win the turn after I cast it. Tooth and Nail is pretty good, but it's very expensive. This version of the deck has a better chance of playing it than the previous one, but it doesn't actually seem better than NO in this list. Entwine T&N, go get Craterhoof and Elesh Norn, I guess?
Gift and Mystic are FAR too narrow. Crossroads is miles better than Greaves in this deck. Being able to suit up Karametra is nice, and I have found myself wishing I had Greaves, but Crossroads is definitely not the card that comes out.
The real problem in testing has been running out of gas in the late game. That's why Genesis Wave has been added. It's no less a dead draw early game than T&N and is potentially MUCH more explosive late game (when I need it). Even getting a Craterhoof and Norn is not that great if it's my only board presence. The deck doesn't have too many other things that get well set up with T&N. Wave even for 4 is phenomenal in this deck.
EDIT: I feel like my Wishboard could use a little tightening.
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Defense of the Heart is definitely more defensive in the fact that it often acts a soft lock, preventing your opponent's from playing more creatures. But its power level is right up there with Tooth and Nail because it fetches two things and puts them directly into play. If you build around it, this should be game winning. It's worth noting that you can force it to pop with Forbidden Orchard.
Because you have access to green creature tutors I would run Oracle of Mul Daya over Exploration most definitely. You could also try something like Sakura-tribe Scout. Running creatures over non-creatures where possible will increase synergy. Sakura-Tribe Scout can be Skullclamped or buffed by Craterhoof and will trigger your commander's ability. Exploration will not.
Tooth and Nail is in whole different league than Genesis Wave. TN has the potentially to consistently and single handedly win you the game by fetching two combo pieces. Wave does not. I think you are aiming your sights too low here. Guiness tastes good to those who have never tried a real microbrewed stout.
Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth with Concordant Crossroads in play should give you a win with TN.
Another solid creature tutor that will probably work well with your build is Fierce Empath.
If you are running out of gas lategame, that means you don't have enough card draw. Tutors would also help. For card draw in GW I can only recommend focusing on Skullclamp as your primary draw engine and including the means to tutor for it. But to use it efficiently you really need to minimize the number of vanilla creatures that can't be clamped and increase the number of token producers even more. The best ones I can think of for your deck that you aren't already running are Emeria Angel, Precinct Captain, Rhys the Redeemed, Hero of Bladehold, and Aura Mutation but there are others. Taking the deck toward a more token based strategy will make Craterhoof that much more viable as a win con. The self-producing token makers like Hero of Bladehold are also awesome with land destruction since they can quickly become a problem for your opponents if not answered.
Something that could be really nice with your build is the white creature reanimation cards, that is Angelic Renewal, Breath of Life, False Defeat, Loyal Retainers, Proclamation of Rebirth, and Resurrection. There's also Death or Glory. These work very nicely with Survival of the Fittest, Silverglade Pathfinder, and of course Hermit Druid.
Also, I'm going to quirk an eyebrow at your wishboard thing. It's really unneeded, and unless your playgroup commonly plays with wishes I would just omit it. Having a sideboard is nice, but it shows me your deck just isn't as focused as it could be. You are trying to squeeze too many cards into the deck. The core of a competitive deck is actually very few cards. Everything else is redundancy, enablers, and protection - that is ramp, tutors, card draw, and removal/control. Something that can be a good exercise is to artificially limit yourself to 60 cards or even 40. That helps you really define what the core of the deck actually is. When you go back to the 99, everything extra is redundancy and enablers. Another thing I do is split the deck in half and have it play against itself. ULTIMATE GOLDFISHING! This just shows you if you've got enough redundancy and if your curve is good.
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My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Suggesting cutting Exploration shows a patent lack of understanding of how the deck works. Getting Karametra into play as early as possible is essential to any version of this deck.
You also are suggesting removing the core of the deck and making it an extremely mundane ramp deck.
T&N is a better card than GW, that was not my contention. Getting to 7 mana is not always viable, let alone 9. The curve of this deck is absolutely vital to its performance. Cutting lower cost spells for higher cost raises my curve. Raising my curve slows my board development.
This is an aggro deck with a combo finish. Not the other way around. Admittedly the name is a touch confusing, but its the easiest way to express it in one word.
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MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I'm more interested in discussing the list.
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Karametra, God of Harvests is a resource engine that needs creatures entering the battlefield to feed it. What better creatures to trigger the ability than creatures who themselves tap for mana. Elves. And so the Elf ball came into being. Which is such a terribly strong web of synergies and infinite combos that you almost don't need anything else. With this much resource advantage it only makes sense to deny your opponent's resources with your Armageddons and further tip the battlefield in your favor.
I get it. It's strong. That's why I'm here. I won't even comment on most decks posted here because they don't pique my interest. They don't tug at my competitive heartstrings. Yours did, so I posted, hoping to fulfill your request of making the deck more competitive.
The reason I discuss my deck building philosophy as part of my critique is that all of my recommendations stem from that. I want people to know the reasons for what I'm suggesting. It's easy to miss the value of certain cards without that core understanding. I also believe that posting a lot of individual swaps amounts to hand holding and that's way too much effort on my part. I'd rather get down to the wheels and cogs of the deck and let the card swaps come naturally from that.
Soooo, the elf ball version is weaker than the non-elf ball version that you originally linked to? That's not the impression I got in your original post, and I can say that elf ball is extremely strong. Looking over your first list, the new elf ball list is definitely an improvement. It has more synergy. So again, I'm confused.
This statement boggles my mind completely. What exactly do you consider to be the core of your deck? Nothing I've suggested would take away from your core strategy as I've outlined above. You've got your elf ball and your Armageddons. That's all you really need to win. As for turning it into a mundane ramp deck??? The only ramp related suggestion I made was cutting non-creature based ramp for creature based ramp. Specifically Oracle of Mul Daya and Sakura-Tribe Scout. Both of these are a far cry from a Rampant Growth. Oracle makes a lot sense because you are running an above average number of lands already. Since you don't have access to blue or black effects, you need to gain card advantage any way you can. Oracle is an excellent way to do that in green.
Exploration is good, but I'm saying that something like Sakura-Tribe Scout might be even better for the reasons I stated. It's not an elf, but neither is Exploration. At least the scout is a creature which triggers your commander and gives you the other bonus uses that I already stated.
G-wave usually takes as much mana as T and N to be effective, so it sits at the top of your curve either way. I see G-wave as casting a fishing line into a lake and crossing your fingers that something good will bite. Sometimes it's good sometimes it's not. TN is a laser guided nuclear missile. Yes, it costs a lot of mana but it should win you the game 99% of the time. If it doesn't, then don't use it. I certainly understand why are cautious of running it. You plan to Armageddon the field multiple times a game, so indeed it might not be the best option. Worldly Tutor or Sylvan Tutor are good, despite the card disadvantage. Natural Order is of course probably much much better even than TN if you don't have any 2 card infinite combos, but it's also a high-blingage card. Considering that G-wave was thrown in as one of the last 2 free spots tells me it's not that necessary to your plan anyway. Keep it if you want, I'm done discussing it.
Something that I would highly recommend doing is organizing your list by function instead of type. It's a lot more useful to see what's going on in the deck. Where you are lacking in redundancy. I usually order the cards in ascending order of cmc after that.
I'm going to leave it at that for now, but put yourself in my shoes for a second. Here I am, coming to your thread hoping to give you some fresh ideas and ways to trim the fat, writing posts that sometimes take me 30-45 minutes to put together and what do you give me in return? Not an intelligent discussion, but a smack in the face without much reason at all. You don't even seem to be really reading what I'm saying. It's like you latch on to one thing I say and spin it into a little fantasy that has nothing to do with what I'm really talking about. It's downright insulting.
I challenge YOU to take the time to actually quote some things that I suggested and directly reply to them. Give me a worthy discussion. You don't have to agree, but I'd like to see your logic. Otherwise, do me a favor and tell me to stop wasting my time here. If you don't want me here, I certainly don't want to be here. Just say the word.
I come in here hoping to learn new things too. I'm certainly not always right - no one is. I haven't actually played the deck like you have, but I have played this game A LOT - enough to know a few things that can be applied universally.
Cheers
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My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
No, the Elfball version is not as strong as the straight combo/ramp decks that everyone and their mom built when K-meat was spoiled. This version, IMO, is leagues better than my original one. What this list offers in exchange for the raw power of more popular lists is (at the time of construction) an entirely unique premise with a skill intensive set of goals and synergies. It also destroys those other versions, which I find particularly amusing.
The problem is those suggestions slow down my clock. For this deck to function in playing a fair(ish) game of EDH, it needs to be blisteringly fast. Oracle of Mul Daya could make it's way back into the deck with all the changes I've made, but she is not at all effective for powering out Karametra. Sakura Tribescout is better late-game because it will get me one extra land, but it's worse early game. I can't go Turn 1 Sakura Tribe Scout, Krosan Verge to set up for a huge turn three. Nor can I play a Scout and a Llanowar Elf or a Scout and an Amulet of Vigor. The first three turns of this deck are usually the most important. Once Karametra is on the battlefield, then the deck can start winning the game. This deck needs turn 1-3 explosion, it does not need another non-elf to fetch one extra land.
I believed your comment about cutting vanilla creatures was referring to things like Lys Alana Huntmaster and Elvish Champion. Going through your newer comments it seems like you are more referencing things like 'Lark combo.
See paragraph above. TL;DR: This deck needs the extra land on the battlefield early game that Exploration provides, not an extra turn late game when Scout is drawn. Exploration also helps with Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine.
I believe Tooth and Nail to be one of the greatest green cards in this format. I really don't think it's a contest. I test with T&N in mind 100% of the time I build a green deck. It was one of only 3 non-creatures over 3 CMC I played in my Gaddock Teeg deck because it's so hilariously busted. I simply don't think it's a feasible play in this deck. It's much better now than in the previous version and G-Waves slot will always be contested.
Originally I had every card that cost more than 5 in my wishboard. Since then I've moved a few higher CMC bombs into the main, thus decreasing the value of small Waves. In this deck, Wave is played as a value spell. It's a draw spell, for all intents and purposes.
Azusa is another MUST in this style of deck. First of all, an Azusa on turn 2 is almost a guaranteed turn 3 Karametra (and potentially some other stuff). Secondly, Crucible of Worlds is a thing. Crucible of Worlds is one of the most important cards in this deck, Azusa makes it entirely broken.
Acidic Slime is necessary for Reveillark combo. Reclamation Sage is better if I just want to deal with an artifact or enchantment. More often than not, Slime is used to blow up everyone's non-creature permanents. I don't want to play Yosei, the Morning Star in this deck, so Acidic Slime is the next go-to.
Crop Rotation is great, but it's not a creature. Also, this is a deck that actually focuses on winning through combat a lot of the time. A 20/20 KotR is pretty scary when it's surrounded by a dozen 6/6s. KotR is preferable to Rotation because it's relevant at all points in the game and has many more options.
I definitely feel this deck needs at least a few fetchlands. I was originally playing none, but testing has shown mana distribution to be a little inconsistent. Unfortunately, Rofellos is not really playable since I'm focusing on Armageddon. That's why I'm not playing Elvish Guidance or Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest (though Earthcraft might be good enough on its own). Kamahl is neat with Elesh Norn, but he's too mana intensive for this version of the deck. I'd be better off with Living Plane like my original version.
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Most of my suggestions are just brainstorming really. For example do I really think Hero of Bladehold is going to make it into the list? Probably not. But it does work well with land destruction and Skullclamp so it was worth mentioning. I do really like Rhys the Redeemed though in this list for clamping purposes and to contribute to your elf ball. The abilities are still a bit mana intensive though for your plan, so it's probably still not good enough.
Another reason I like to list by function is that it makes it easier to critique. 99 cards is just hard to look at. If you had ordered by function I wouldn't have missed some of the more nitty gritty interactions. I always do it, and I like it.
I think I'm going to goldfish your deck as is and then get back to you with some additional thoughts and maybe a deck list of my own. I might end up personally building this deck because it interests me. If not in paper, at least online.
I hope that we can all continue to work together to improve the list. I have a few new ideas I want to test out.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Turn 1: Land, Mana dork
Turn 2: Land, Azusa, Land, Land
Turn 3: Karametra
Her sole purpose in the first few turns is to power out Karametra a turn earlier. In the late game she has added value which compounds itself with other synergies. This deck also goes through enough cards in the course of a game that I see Strip Mine a pretty significant percentage of the time. I do agree I could use more ways to get Crucible onto the battlefield, but that's tricky in these colors.
I love Rhys the Redeemed and tried to make him fit a few times. I'm pretty sure he's too mana intensive, but with the addition of Lys Alana Huntmaster and a few more mana elves; he may be playable now.
As for Genesis Wave, this deck isn't necessarily looking to windmill slam big business. As I said, it's a value spell. It allows a board state on the cusp of snowballing to take that last step. I frequently find myself in exactly that scenario. I'm not convinced GWave is the best option, but I think it merits testing and my initial opinion is that it will function more effectively than has been suggested.
Getting KotR huge isn't difficult in an Armageddon heavy game. My real problem is having the mana base be as consistent as I want it to be while still keeping my Forest/Plains count high.
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Definitely, your lategame is weak. Sometimes I even resorted to topdecking mid-game, but had a really awesome board. A wrath or even a couple of spot removals would have screwed things up. This was pretty frustrating because I NEED CARD DRAW IN MEH LIFE! (says the Izzet player) :|
Tutor and card draw is pretty much the only way to remedy this. Your best draw engine by far is Skullclamp. Especially when you've got something like Lys Alana Huntmaster in play. Mentor of the Meek is a close second. Getting some of these cards into play reliably I think is going to be crucial.
For that I recommend:
Stoneforge Mystic, Steelshaper's Gift - Both Clamp and Umbral Mantle are pretty essential, so I think narrow tutors are worth it. Mystic is a creature so that fits into our plan and should go in first.
Getting certain key creatures into play is still something I think the deck lacks the ability to do. It would be nice if we could get Survival of the Fittest into play every game, but that just isn't going to happen, so I think the redundancy is nice.
Skyshroud Poacher is a little gem I just found on gatherer. I think this might be exactly what we're looking for. It's an elf that tutors other elves directly into play!
Others are Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor (certainly worse than Worldy but a nice budget option), Time of Need (can tutor your commander if it's tucked but also gets Elesh and Azusa), Natural Order, Fauna Shaman (is an elf), Pattern of Rebirth and Defense of the Heart are going to be our best options for efficient creature tutors that you aren't already running.
There are some other card advantage engines that would be worth a try. Recycle is pretty tempting here. I playtested it and I think we can make it work really well. With Aluren of course, it gets nuts. Overall I really like it for a mid-late game powerhouse. With enough mana we can really plow through the deck. And it can be cheated into play with Academy Rector.
Oracle of Mul Daya may not help you get Karametra into play the first time, but I think it can smooth out our mid to late game. It could go a long way in helping us bounce back quickly from a land wrath.
Collective Unconscious should be worth the mana and preferable to Regal Force IMO
Skullmulcher might be option too.
Another problem I noticed was that I got color screwed in two games. You've got a lot of lands that only produce colorless. Like 9 I think. Probably it was bad luck. I think that adding all seven usable fetchlands would be definitely be smart, so I'm glad you intend on doing that - prices are going to come down, but that's still a lot of dough. With Crucible they are just fantastic.
Cards I don't like in the list: (honestly there aren't many. I can see that everything has a function and it already works pretty well so cuts are going to be difficult)
Selesnya Sanctuary - I've got a beef with these lands, especially in a land destruction deck. Potential for massive massive tempo loss. They just aren't needed IMO.
Restock - 5 mana really tends to be a lot. I think this one can stand to be cut. You've already got a lot of great recursion cards in the list.
Glimpse of Nature - while cheap, this depends on you having creatures in hand which doesn't help with your lategame card draw problems. It's a really bad lategame topdeck. Swapping this out for something like Collective Unconscious, while taking away some burst potential, will help keep you in the game after your hand runs dry.
Stonecloaker, Whitemane Lion, Cloudstone Curio - I know why these are included - they work extremely nicely with etb triggers and your commander, however, my hunch is that they won't be that missed if they get cut. Out of the three, Curio is probably the best since it's a may and can be used multiple times a turn - there's probably an infinite combo I'm spacing out on. I'm kinda on the fence with these guys though. I think I personally would be happier with more tutors or more elves, especially the ones that can go infinite.
Garruk Wildspeaker - on the fence with this one too. I like how he untaps the lands the Karametra provides, but otherwise he's got very little synergy. Amulet of Vigor is just better for that effect. Seedborn Muse?
You've got 37 lands. I think you'd probably be safe with 35 with as much ramping and recursion as you've got. Maybe cut 2 basics for 1 drop mana elves?
Cards I'd like to try (that I haven't mentioned yet, in order of appeal):
Academy Rector - You've got some very key enchantments, so being able to fetch any one of them into play is quite nice. And the nice thing about Rector is that it can be fetched by creature tutors. Mirari's Wake especially wants to be cheated into play, and Aura Shards wants to see play every game as well. As far as sac outlets go, I think you've just got High Market which could be tutored for, but otherwise, Rector will give you some value from a board wipe (and they will happen). Then there's Idyllic Tutor and Sterling Grove
Boreal Druid, Avacyn's Pilgrim - pulled these from gma's list. I think adding more 1 drops elves would be really nice.
Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile - I'm really missing the feeling of security I get from having these in hand. They are efficient responsive answers to A LOT of problems.
Beast Within, Oblation, Retribution of the Meek - these are the next strongest efficient removal spells in these colors that I could think of. I know you are focusing on speed, but in my experience, sometimes you just need an answer to a single threat.
Dryad Arbor, Green Sun's Zenith - I thought you said you already added green sun, but I don't see it in your list. That's definitely the first tutor I would add. Green Sun can grab Dryad Arbor on turn 1 for just G. It's a strong play.
Skyshroud Poacher - This is actually the second creature tutor that I'd add over worldly tutor and the others. Glad I found this.
Devoted Druid, Quirion Ranger, Gyre Sage, Seeker of Skybreak, Greenweaver Druid, Fyndhorn Elder, Viridian Joiner, Argothian Elder, Wirewood Channeler - these are all pretty solid elves that I've seen included in other elf ball lists. Worth consideration.
Hermit Druid - Using your graveyard as a zone of play is such a powerful strategy in commander. Hermit Druid makes all of your recursion cards that much better. Sun Titan, Crucible of Worlds, Reveillark. Hermit Druid can help you bounce back strong after a land wrath. Having Hermit Druid and Sun Titan both out after a wrath would just be really sweet I think.
Wirewood Symbiote - there's a lot of combo potential with this card even though it's a use once. I think it's worth a test run.
Rhys the Redeemed - a one drop elf that gives you mana sink.
Fierce Empath - Gets your commander after a tuck, but also Elesh and Craterhoof if you decide to try it out. I'd only add this if you add craterhoof.
Craterhoof Behemoth - This really is an amazing card, but after playing the deck, my hunch is that you're not going to have enough creatures in play kill the whole table a lot of the time. Still worth giving a go though. I kinda think it would be wiser to focus on going infinite with your elf ball as a win con and slotting in the necessary tutors to make that happen more reliably. Ezuri, Renegade Leader is just a solid mana sink for infinite mana
That pretty much exhausts what I have to say about the deck. I might post my own list here soon. I kinda think that Rhys would be funner for me to play personally, but he's overdone.
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The problem I have with your additions are they are hell on the curve. I agree it needs more late game closing power, but its ability to spring right back from land destruction is dependent on a lower curve.
The bounce creatures are excellent in this deck. Any unused mana immediately propagates itself. They turn Mentor of the Meek into a late game shotgun. With Karametra and Amulet of Vigor it's obscene. Glimpse of Nature is also relevant here.
Amulet of Vigor is also an essential part of Selesnya Sanctuary. It enters the battlefield untapped, netting me two mana, then returns itself to my hand. It's a land that won't be hit by my own land destruction ever. I don't play it out, I keep it in my hand.
Recurring Armageddon effects is difficult in these colors. Restock allows me to consistently fuel my board resets. Recollect could be played, but I think the two extra mana is worthwhile. Especially late game. It could be cut because I might not need as many regrowth effects in this version, but testing has shown it to be pretty handy.
Seedborn Muse is a card I played consistently in previous versions, but it actually doesn't do anything. No really, it does nothing. This deck functions almost exclusively during my turn. Seedborn Muse would only allow me to play Whitemane Lion more often, which wouldn't even be a good idea because I'd risk over extending my mana base. Garruk is a repeatable ramp spell that provides Overruns. That sounds like everything this deck wants.
I want to play Aluren. I'm just not sure if I want to play it badly enough to give that insane effects to my opponents.
Fauna Shaman, Pattern of Rebirth, and Defense of the Heart are too slow and vulnerable, IMO. Skyshroud Poacher also sort of falls into this list, though is most definitely better than Fauna Shaman here.
Gyre Sage doesn't actually do much because all my elves are the same size/smaller than it. Bloomtender would likely work better. Wirewood Channelers is too much mana. Late game ramp spells are not particularly useful. The deck ramps extremely hard extremely quickly and then tops out its curve and blows up all the lands. A card that accelerates me past 6 mana is not particularly handy. I made a conscious effort to cut expensive ramp spells and focus on strictly the most efficient means of accomplishing my goals. Upping the curve and adding more ramp spells does not seem like the best strategy, to me. It is entirely against the spirit of the deck, beyond my not believing it's more effective.
Recycle is definitely too much mana. I'll try the equipment tutors. They certainly have increased value since adding Lys Alana Huntmaster (a relatively recent addition).
I've played many Hermit Druid decks in my day. Some for degenerate combo, some for graveyard fuel, and some for strict value. I'm not convinced that's where this deck wants to be. My old Gaddock Teeg deck loved Hermit Druid and Bazaar of Baghdad to feed its graveyard, set up 'Lark combo, and ensure consistent land drops. This is not a 'Lark combo deck. The 'Lark combo is honestly there as a last ditch effort. Everything else has failed, nuke everyone. Graveyard hate is also at an all-time high. The quality of graveyard hate spells is only going to go up in the future. I already make use of my graveyard as a resource, as soon as I become dependent on it this deck is exposed to a whole new world of hate that it actually can't fight against.
I originally had every one drop mana dork I could cram into it. The number I've settled on was the result of testing. Adding more of these guys is absolutely counter to our goal of increasing late game power. They may be Skullclamp fodder, but there are better ways to generate that.
Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger are both very good. I would like to get them involved. Symbiote much more than Ranger, in spite of its non-elf typing.
Spot removal is great to have. I'm not convinced there are enough things this deck fears to warrant the space. What sorts of creatures does this deck truly fear? These cards are reactive when this deck needs to focus on being proactive as much as possible. Taking out 1 creature is not ever really useful (except for Elesh Norn). Retribution of the Meek has been added and cut more times than any other card in this deck, I think. I'd like to make room for it.
I would play Sterling Grove over Idyllic Tutor or Academy Rector. Needing to pack more sac outlets into this deck is awkward and the mana cost is not ideal. Sterling Grove has the additional bonus of protecting my enchantments when I draw it late game and don't need it. I'm thinking Sterling Grove would do pretty well in my Wish board. Definitely better than Dueling Grounds.
I believe Regal Force to be significantly better than Collective Unconscious. Yes, there is a one mana difference, but Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, Chord of Calling, AND Green Sun's Zenith can all tutor Regal Force.
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