Since Scoeri updated how the decklists are organized I thought I may as well add a few of my other decks. As the title states this is my esper deck, something I've been playing around with since the 2013 precons came out. At first it was 'sitting in chairs' tribal, then became something of an azorius law style.... anyways here it is now. I can answer a variety of threats, have a lot of resiliency with stuff like academy ruins, volrath's stronghold etc.
I like Necropotence but I'm always reluctant about the discard. It is a good idea though, considering there are lots of other ways to draw in the deck.
You could probably drop at least 2 and maybe three lands with all the rocks you run. That should help you find slots for your adds.
I'm playing a deck which is aiming to be much faster and I've found Reaver and Well to be underwhelming despite their synergy with Oloro.
I think you could play Hart or Solemn instead of both. If you really want land grab in both those slots replace one with Tithe or Land Tax.
Necropotence is amazing. Just make sure you have your Reliquary Tower or run a Venser's Journal.
If you want more win conditions:
Vizkopa Guildmage + Beacon of Immortality : both synergize really well with other cards in the deck even if you don't want to combo. (If you have the most life Beacon with Vizkopa active kills the board or Debt with Vizkopa active...)
Vizkopa + Exquisite Blood : Essentially the same thing as Sanguine Bond + Blood. Maybe a little combotastic for your tastes.
Hi. Thanks for coming in and responding. I'm guessing you did not notice the Land Tax that has always been in this deck? Scroll Rack N Tax all the way!
So I'm a little confused by your advice. You suggest cutting lands, then mention your deck is much faster. I've looked at your list, and its Ad Nauseam combo, so obviously your list is faster.
I don't run any of the cheese lifegain combos in this deck because they don't work against good players. Not saying your are a bad player, far from it you have lots of neat stuff in your list. My issue with trying to combo off Vizkopa Guildmage and stuff like Sanguine Bond is people see it a mile away. People in my meta run tons of answers so attrition through value is what I've been trying to win with lately.
That said, my win in this deck is usually one of the high CMC creatures beating with a sword once everybody has run out of options or killed each other off for me.
To answer some of your specific points instead of sounding so negative:
Yeah Necropotence is awesome, and I already run a Reliquary Tower. The positives really outweigh the negatives, and I had better start looking at ways to incorporate it.
I don't even try to get my Drogskol Reaver out until far later in the game, when people don't have much left due to all the counters, removal and board sweeps. Staying on board for more than one turn is almost always a win.
Well of Lost Dreams is very similar for me to Phyrexian Arena or Rhystic Study, except it doesn't draw much hate. I don't care which one ends up out, I never tutor for them, but having three permanents that fill the same function ensures I see them. Also, the more attrition style you build this general and less combo you go, this card gets better. When you only play five or six turns before hitting an Ad Naus I'm guessing this doesn't do much for you.
I run my one and only Tithe in a Zedruu Sunforger deck (also listed for viewing) so that won't be making it. Great card, though.
I already have a deck with cheese insta win, its a Maelstrom Wanderer build that quickly goes infinite. Thanks I'll pass.
And finally Serra Avatar. The best use of this creature I Think is in Trostani builds. I don't believe in vanilla beaters, especially when you have access to Esper creatures. My value town equivalent is Avacyn, Angel of Hope.
Hey thanks again for the advice and for posting. I will be doing an update here in the next few.
Even when I was playing pillow fort with Oloro I found Reaver and Well to be underwhelming. Part of that is I hate the mana commitment that Well requires. I don't want to spend mana on my upkeep unless it is going to immediately win my the game. But I'm a true blue player in that I hate tapping during my own turn n general. The other part is that creatures don't survive long in my meta.
I can understand not running the combo wins. It's definitely a personal opinion thing. I was just throwing them out there as an option in case you find your attack phase based strategy to be ineffective (it almost certainly would be in my meta). However, your points about their effectiveness are somewhat legitimate. The Vizkopa combos and Blood/Bond only work in heavy control shell (like mine). You run a pretty large control package but it's still half the size of mine.
Other then a few choices on creatures (and a couple other things) your list is eerily similar to one of my builds that I ran between the initial pillow fort and the current combo version I run now. As long as your meta isn't heavy blue you should be very successful with it. Even if your meta is pretty blue you should do well. It is definitely a fun version to play.
One more thing I would suggest, as you test cards and decide that some things don't live up to expectations consider replacing them with 1 CMC cantrips (Ponder, Preordain, Serum Visions, Peek, Opt, Brainstorm...) and/or cards with transmute. Tolaria West can help you tutor for Urborg/Coffers/Reliquary (or Pact). Muddle the Mixture is good on its own or can grab you Demonic Tutor to grab something else. Shred Memory is great if you face reanimator decks and can also grab DTutor.
Yeah I definitely agree with you about the mana spent on Well. A few days ago I ended up with Well and an extort ability. While it was nice to slowly bleed people of life while making all my instants cantrip, the mana commitment is very heavy.
Just updated it to reflect my current build. I haven't decided on a land to cut for the Volrath's Stronghold yet but it will make its way in. Here are the cuts:
A friend of mine has been advocating the use of stuff like Ponder and Preordain to me for a long time. I loved that stuff as a casual 60 player, and would rock Brainstorm in every deck I could. I call that sort of stuff 'deck lube' and they have a well deserved reputation... I would consider dropping some of the mana rocks for them.
Speaking of mana rocks I switched Mana Vault for Grim Monolith. I like Monolith more for being able to untap during opponents turn, but the vault is tutorable with Trinket Mage. Since I run Unwinding Clock the value is a little skewed on them, but for now I thought I'd try something new. If you have opinions do tell.
Vault vs Grim is kind of 6 of 1, half a dozen of another. Especially with Clock. I run Vault because it gives me an instant +2 and my game plan is such that I should only ever tap it once. Your game plan is much more of a long game philosophy so Grim would probably be better suited. Being able to untap during an end step (and not taking pain) can be super important if you expect to need multiple uses.
On the subject of cantrips...I'm not a fan of cutting mana or mana accel for them in a lot of decks but you could probably do that effectively. You do run a lot of rocks for someone planning for a long game. I'd probably just play the deck for awhile and see if there are any cards that you never want to cast when you draw them. Or that underperform when you do cast them. Those are the cards I would cut for cantrips (or whatever else you find).
If probably cut High Market or a basic for Volrath. What would you sac to Market other then Solemn? I mean, it can combo with the Guide and Delver to get repeated ETBs out of some of your utility creatures but that feels super clunky to me.
What about Ashen Rider? I think that card complements what you're trying to do. You can run it out early to remove a problem, and later in the game it can be a win condition with upside if your opponents happen to get rid of it.
I ran Ashen Rider in my Karador build. It was great in a pod chain/reanimator deck but for this I'm not really considering it.
Also, how do you run an 8 drop creature out early in non green? And, I guess I don't get what you mean when you say late game, its a 'win condition with upside if your opponents happen to get rid of it.' If my opponent kills Ashen Rider, how is it still a win condition?
Thanks for suggesting, I'm just not really trying to run her right now.
You can power Rider out pretty quickly if you get lucky with your rocks. Looking at the list I think turn 3 is possible. But it's tough. Turn 5 would be were it starts getting more realistic. Even then you would likely have to tap out. In my meta I'm hesitant to cast anything I care about past turn 4 unless I have counter protection.
I'm not a huge fan of Rider. I played it for awhile in my older, less combo centric Oloro builds and it always felt like a dead card in my hand. Casting it used up to many resources (resources better used for other cards) and it was tough to resolve. If I did resolve it someone tucked it or exiled it so I only got one trigger.
I could see running it in a deck heavily focused on Deadeye shenanigans but most of the time it's a "bomb" that ends up being a dud.
I ran Ashen Rider in my Karador build. It was great in a pod chain/reanimator deck but for this I'm not really considering it.
Also, how do you run an 8 drop creature out early in non green? And, I guess I don't get what you mean when you say late game, its a 'win condition with upside if your opponents happen to get rid of it.' If my opponent kills Ashen Rider, how is it still a win condition?
Thanks for suggesting, I'm just not really trying to run her right now.
Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear. As Bigbearlyke said, artifact ramp can get Ashen Rider out fairly quickly. That and having consistent land drops via things like Tithe and Land Tax, if you're into those sorts of things.
Previously you were referring to how you have your win condition be a few of your high CMC creatures, so I was thinking Ashen Rider can be yet another one of those. It has evasion and while not the most powerful card in terms of P/T, your opponents will be reluctant to get rid of him.
And as for people tucking/exiling it, that's only if your opponent has those cards. You have counters available yourself.
I just think it's an awesome card and have had a lot of great results with it personally.
I've never really liked Well of Lost dreams due to how mana intensive it is. Perhaps it could be replaced with either an engine like Greed or a win-con like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Auger?
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Avatar by Disappointing Signet Inc
EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
I really don't see the difference between Well and Greed. Greed needs life to burn and black mana, doesn't need me to gain life. Well requires a life gain, gives you one card for one colorless mana. I guess Greed can be activated anytime by itself. That's cool. I don't run Jin, Magister Sphinx or anything else like that because the game becomes a contest of who can clone, steal or reanimate the tier 0 creature.
@magmoormaster
I previously used Debt, its a cool card for a nice late win if your meta lets that sorta thing fly. Too much blue around for me. Since you're referencing earlier posts I assume you saw my stance on Sanguine Bond and its ilk. Finally, Serra Avatar is a vanilla beater that cannot be reanimated, and I don't do anything with +1/+1 counters to warrant a vanilla bear that gets bigger slowly over time. The Angelic Accord is something I have not seen before, thanks for introducing it to me. It is not near good enough but I like it.
if either of you have deck lists you want some feedback on, I'd be happy to return the favor. Thank you both.
I like the newest version. I still think you run to many lands but I can't be sure without playing the deck myself.
Ponder is a sorcery BTW. You have it in the instant section.
One last suggestion, since you run Future Top you may want to consider an Etherium Sculptor. He is good on his own but with Top and Future Sight he means you can draw your entire deck for free.
All of these are fairly strong. The average curve is a bit high, but it gives options.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Avatar by Disappointing Signet Inc
EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
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6 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
LANDS 37
3 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Scrubland
1 tundra
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Underground River
1 Fetid Heath
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 City of Brass
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
1 High Market
1 Strip Mine
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Kor Haven
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
1 Sol Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Expedition Map
2 Scroll Rack
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Talisman of Progress
2 Dimir Signet
2 Azorius Signet
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Oblivion Stone
CREATURES 18
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
2 Gilded Drake
3 Trinket Mage
3 Drift of Phantasms
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Crypt ghast
4 Archaeomancer
4 Clever impersonator
5 Karmic Guide
5 Phyrexian Delver
6 yosei, the morning star
6 Wurmcoil Engine
7 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
0 Pact of Negation
1 brainstorm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 cyclonic rift
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Hinder
3 Spell Crumple
3 Render Silent
4 Utter End
4 Cryptic Command
SORCERIES 8
1 ponder
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Vindicate
3 Council's Judgment
4 Supreme Verdict
6 Merciless Eviction
0 Diabolic Revelation
ENCHANTMENTS 6
1 Land Tax
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 bitterblossom
2 Blind Obedience
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Necropotence
PlANESWALKERS 3
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
5 Venser, the Sojourner
6 sorin markov
Yay Utter End is super cool. It came at the expense of Return to Dust, and I still want to add a Bitterblossom, but I like where the deck is headed.
I like Necropotence but I'm always reluctant about the discard. It is a good idea though, considering there are lots of other ways to draw in the deck.
I'm playing a deck which is aiming to be much faster and I've found Reaver and Well to be underwhelming despite their synergy with Oloro.
I think you could play Hart or Solemn instead of both. If you really want land grab in both those slots replace one with Tithe or Land Tax.
Necropotence is amazing. Just make sure you have your Reliquary Tower or run a Venser's Journal.
If you want more win conditions:
Vizkopa Guildmage + Beacon of Immortality : both synergize really well with other cards in the deck even if you don't want to combo. (If you have the most life Beacon with Vizkopa active kills the board or Debt with Vizkopa active...)
Vizkopa + Exquisite Blood : Essentially the same thing as Sanguine Bond + Blood. Maybe a little combotastic for your tastes.
Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance
Serra Avatar : a Great beater win con. Can also combo with Vizkopa through Swords to Plowshares
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
So I'm a little confused by your advice. You suggest cutting lands, then mention your deck is much faster. I've looked at your list, and its Ad Nauseam combo, so obviously your list is faster.
I don't run any of the cheese lifegain combos in this deck because they don't work against good players. Not saying your are a bad player, far from it you have lots of neat stuff in your list. My issue with trying to combo off Vizkopa Guildmage and stuff like Sanguine Bond is people see it a mile away. People in my meta run tons of answers so attrition through value is what I've been trying to win with lately.
That said, my win in this deck is usually one of the high CMC creatures beating with a sword once everybody has run out of options or killed each other off for me.
To answer some of your specific points instead of sounding so negative:
Yeah Necropotence is awesome, and I already run a Reliquary Tower. The positives really outweigh the negatives, and I had better start looking at ways to incorporate it.
I don't even try to get my Drogskol Reaver out until far later in the game, when people don't have much left due to all the counters, removal and board sweeps. Staying on board for more than one turn is almost always a win.
Well of Lost Dreams is very similar for me to Phyrexian Arena or Rhystic Study, except it doesn't draw much hate. I don't care which one ends up out, I never tutor for them, but having three permanents that fill the same function ensures I see them. Also, the more attrition style you build this general and less combo you go, this card gets better. When you only play five or six turns before hitting an Ad Naus I'm guessing this doesn't do much for you.
I run my one and only Tithe in a Zedruu Sunforger deck (also listed for viewing) so that won't be making it. Great card, though.
As for
I already have a deck with cheese insta win, its a Maelstrom Wanderer build that quickly goes infinite. Thanks I'll pass.
And finally Serra Avatar. The best use of this creature I Think is in Trostani builds. I don't believe in vanilla beaters, especially when you have access to Esper creatures. My value town equivalent is Avacyn, Angel of Hope.
Hey thanks again for the advice and for posting. I will be doing an update here in the next few.
I can understand not running the combo wins. It's definitely a personal opinion thing. I was just throwing them out there as an option in case you find your attack phase based strategy to be ineffective (it almost certainly would be in my meta). However, your points about their effectiveness are somewhat legitimate. The Vizkopa combos and Blood/Bond only work in heavy control shell (like mine). You run a pretty large control package but it's still half the size of mine.
Other then a few choices on creatures (and a couple other things) your list is eerily similar to one of my builds that I ran between the initial pillow fort and the current combo version I run now. As long as your meta isn't heavy blue you should be very successful with it. Even if your meta is pretty blue you should do well. It is definitely a fun version to play.
One more thing I would suggest, as you test cards and decide that some things don't live up to expectations consider replacing them with 1 CMC cantrips (Ponder, Preordain, Serum Visions, Peek, Opt, Brainstorm...) and/or cards with transmute. Tolaria West can help you tutor for Urborg/Coffers/Reliquary (or Pact). Muddle the Mixture is good on its own or can grab you Demonic Tutor to grab something else. Shred Memory is great if you face reanimator decks and can also grab DTutor.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Just updated it to reflect my current build. I haven't decided on a land to cut for the Volrath's Stronghold yet but it will make its way in. Here are the cuts:
A friend of mine has been advocating the use of stuff like Ponder and Preordain to me for a long time. I loved that stuff as a casual 60 player, and would rock Brainstorm in every deck I could. I call that sort of stuff 'deck lube' and they have a well deserved reputation... I would consider dropping some of the mana rocks for them.
Speaking of mana rocks I switched Mana Vault for Grim Monolith. I like Monolith more for being able to untap during opponents turn, but the vault is tutorable with Trinket Mage. Since I run Unwinding Clock the value is a little skewed on them, but for now I thought I'd try something new. If you have opinions do tell.
On the subject of cantrips...I'm not a fan of cutting mana or mana accel for them in a lot of decks but you could probably do that effectively. You do run a lot of rocks for someone planning for a long game. I'd probably just play the deck for awhile and see if there are any cards that you never want to cast when you draw them. Or that underperform when you do cast them. Those are the cards I would cut for cantrips (or whatever else you find).
If probably cut High Market or a basic for Volrath. What would you sac to Market other then Solemn? I mean, it can combo with the Guide and Delver to get repeated ETBs out of some of your utility creatures but that feels super clunky to me.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Also, how do you run an 8 drop creature out early in non green? And, I guess I don't get what you mean when you say late game, its a 'win condition with upside if your opponents happen to get rid of it.' If my opponent kills Ashen Rider, how is it still a win condition?
Thanks for suggesting, I'm just not really trying to run her right now.
I'm not a huge fan of Rider. I played it for awhile in my older, less combo centric Oloro builds and it always felt like a dead card in my hand. Casting it used up to many resources (resources better used for other cards) and it was tough to resolve. If I did resolve it someone tucked it or exiled it so I only got one trigger.
I could see running it in a deck heavily focused on Deadeye shenanigans but most of the time it's a "bomb" that ends up being a dud.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear. As Bigbearlyke said, artifact ramp can get Ashen Rider out fairly quickly. That and having consistent land drops via things like Tithe and Land Tax, if you're into those sorts of things.
Previously you were referring to how you have your win condition be a few of your high CMC creatures, so I was thinking Ashen Rider can be yet another one of those. It has evasion and while not the most powerful card in terms of P/T, your opponents will be reluctant to get rid of him.
And as for people tucking/exiling it, that's only if your opponent has those cards. You have counters available yourself.
I just think it's an awesome card and have had a lot of great results with it personally.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
I really don't see the difference between Well and Greed. Greed needs life to burn and black mana, doesn't need me to gain life. Well requires a life gain, gives you one card for one colorless mana. I guess Greed can be activated anytime by itself. That's cool. I don't run Jin, Magister Sphinx or anything else like that because the game becomes a contest of who can clone, steal or reanimate the tier 0 creature.
@magmoormaster
I previously used Debt, its a cool card for a nice late win if your meta lets that sorta thing fly. Too much blue around for me. Since you're referencing earlier posts I assume you saw my stance on Sanguine Bond and its ilk. Finally, Serra Avatar is a vanilla beater that cannot be reanimated, and I don't do anything with +1/+1 counters to warrant a vanilla bear that gets bigger slowly over time. The Angelic Accord is something I have not seen before, thanks for introducing it to me. It is not near good enough but I like it.
if either of you have deck lists you want some feedback on, I'd be happy to return the favor. Thank you both.
Angelic Accord does nothing by itself and you must run a bunch of other cards to trigger it (for example Rhox Faithmender and other 'gain double life' cards Boon Reflection)
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Ponder is a sorcery BTW. You have it in the instant section.
One last suggestion, since you run Future Top you may want to consider an Etherium Sculptor. He is good on his own but with Top and Future Sight he means you can draw your entire deck for free.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Thanks for the props. I dig your secondary build (obviously).
Not really sure which direction to go. I also need to add Homeward Path since lately my opponents have been fond of Bribery.
Myojin of Night's Reach
Rune-Scarred Demon
Ashen Rider
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Rhox Faithmender
Divinity of Pride
Bloodgift Demon
Sheoldred, Whispering One
All of these are fairly strong. The average curve is a bit high, but it gives options.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender