MTG Salvation

First thing's first: This is an excellent primer on Krenko. Read it first. I'll wait. Really, go read it. It's a great list, but it presents a very inconsistent threat level. That makes it hard to assess and makes for unfun games: getting pounced when you're no threat and people failing to recognize when you're winning next turn. I make some incremental improvements that makes the value of a card in hand easier to guess.

Okay, now let's talk about my list. The cardinal rule of competitive play is "Win first or stop your opponents from winning until you can win." So we make some cuts. These cards really just feed bettercombo decks:
-Reforge the Soul
-Wheel of Fortune

Next, we're not going to rely on card-disadvantage draw engines. Krenko himself is plenty solid as long as you can keep him from getting tucked.
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Scroll Rack

Last, this deck isn't going to make more than 5 mana until it's already won or lost.
-Akroma's Memorial
-Godo, Bandit Warlord

And one quick substitution in place to stop Derevi from getting haste:
-Mass Hysteria
+Ashling's Prerogative

And another because we tend to be more limited in our red mana than our colorless and we really hate having our haste-giver destroyed:
-Hammer of Purphoros
+Fervor

And four cards that just don't do enough:
-Krenko's Command
-Illusionist's Bracers
-Eldrazi Monument
-Splinter Twin, amazingly win-more

So let's use our freed up slots:
+Sculpting Steel Generic utility.
+Sword of the Paruns I seem to attack for lethal more often than Dorino.
+In the Web of War We love haste and we love pump. This gives us both.
+Aftershock, Flexible removal. We need to run good answers where they're available. We're just not the fastest out there.
+Magus of the Moon, see above.
+Mana Vault,We're far more likely to win if Krenko can come down turn 2. Among other things, he's way less likely to get tucked.
+Marton Stromgald, plenty of ways to give him haste, and he can make even 6 gobs into a lethal swarm. There's usually a soft target somewhere even though he is a 1/1.
+3 Snow-Covered Mountain, effectively.

List (I'll format as I find time):

Hey, I'm actually looking into building a Krenko deck. I checked the primer and came away with a few questionable inclusions not addressed here:

1. Is Zealous Conscripts worth it without a good way to tutor it up? I see the Kiki interaction, but it seems weak outside of the combo, and seemingly has no means outside of Gamble to tutor it up.

2. Ashnod's Altar doesn't seem great with no good means to spend colorless mana. I get that it's a repeatable sac outlet, but do we already have enough of those?

3. Isn't Moggcatcher too high of a curve for a card that we can't tutor for?

4. What is Basalt Monolith really doing for us? Do we need all that colorless? Am I missing some key interactions? (I actually just realized that with Staff of Domination Ashnod's Altar is really good, but it still seems narrow)

5-whatever. Given the density of cards that promote us using mountains, is it worthwhile to play non-basics such as Tower of the Magistrate, Buried Ruin, Valakut, Thespian's Stage, Great Furnace, and Forgotten Cave?

As fora potential includion off of the top of my head, although it is not tutorable (I am not forking ovr the $150 for Imperial Recruiter), doesn't Magus of the Moon seem like an almost auto-include?

1. Yes. Stealing a Propaganda/Ghostly Prison/etc is way better than trying to pay to attack through it.

2. Most of the combo pieces are colorless mana outlets: Sword of the Paruns/Umbral Mantle/Staff of Domination. Also, just replaying Krenko so long as something can give him haste isn't awful for a repeating cost of RR. So, much better than it looks at first glance.

3. It's actually a great deal: you find Kiki, copy Moggcatcher, get Lightning Crafter. At that point, you've won if you have any sac outlet/Boggart Shenanigans/Goblin Sharpshooter in play. Otherwise, you can win the next turn by finding Skirk Prospector or Boggart Shenanigans.

4. Basalt isn't in my list. I'll update the top post.

5. Tower, probably. I'm not sure Vesuva or Thespian's Stage is worthwhile. The cycling lands do pull their weight: you want 4 lands by turn 4 and then you never want to see another land.

I'm just proxying the Recruiter. And yes, I have Magus of the Moon.

...man, if I had $1 for every one of these cards that I bulk-traded at SCG Columus...

Haha, list looks fun. I should have it put together within the next couple of weeks. Bonus points for playing Scrying Sheets. I may have to include a copy of Skred, as it is my pet card (I know it is not actually good in this format). I've been wanting a goblins list ever since my buddy started refining his Wort, Boggart Auntie deck. I love a red deck that interacts with the stack, is for some reason resilient, and plays so many unfair cards.

Mogg War Marshall -> Shattering Spree
Vesuva/Stage -> 2x Mountain

Hey great list, I've got a Krenko deck that's pretty similar to yours. Just curious how this deck has been playing for you, do you have any results you can post? Also are there any other cards that you're thinking about adding into the deck?

It's been doing extremely well online and in cardboard, but generates a lot of complaints from my opponents. There are no single card changes I'm aware of that I should be considering, but I'm always interested in suggestions.

I wish there was more to say about the deck, but the archetype is pretty thoroughly explored. You could run Illusionist's Bracers/Magewright's Stone/Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast and those choices would be perfectly defensible.

I disagree with your statement about wheel of fortune and reforge the soul. These cards make your opponents discard their hands which if they're about to combo off they probably have the cards they want in their hand especially if they tutor alot and alot of combo decks don't run ways to get pieces back from the yard blue specifically. Wheel and Reforge are all stars in any mono red deck as you will spit your hand out easily and then refill whilst getting rid of everyone's combo pieces. Also cut alot of your non-basic lands and throw in a blood moon and a magus of the moon these two cards will shut most of your opponents out of the game. Also then you can run cards like ruination which also basically wins you the game most times.

The mono-red deck will almost never empty its hand fastest. You're spending your mana to refill everyone else's hand. The whole point of playing Krenko is that you do well in top-deck mode and you're relatively hard to disrupt.

Ruination is almost strictly worse than Boil in a competitive meta.

Quote from ambivalentduck

The mono-red deck will almost never empty its hand fastest. You're spending your mana to refill everyone else's hand. The whole point of playing Krenko is that you do well in top-deck mode and you're relatively hard to disrupt.

Ruination is almost strictly worse than Boil in a competitive meta.

There is no way that boilis better than ruination I would suggest possibly running both but not every competitive deck is mono U and decks that run U that aren't mono blue usually don't run that many islands zur sharuum etc. As the red player everything in your hand shouldn't be above 5 CMC and and with mana rocks you should be down to at least 1 or two cards by turn 4 and wheel of fortune sets you up for a huge game winning turn 5-6. Also your original point was that it is bad against combo which is very very untrue. Most people in edh besides the red and green player hold lots of cards in their hand that's why pretty much everyone runs a relinquary tower so you are denying them the cards they need whilst gaining card advantage on your end. Back to boil play in a competitive meta and I see far more non basics than I do mountains albeit my mono blue deck would get wrecked by boil but I'm like one of three out of 15 people who even run an island in the deck!

Boil can destroy ABUR and Ravnica dual lands that have the Island land type.

and ruination blows up every single other dual land tower, ancient tomb, high market, nykthos, shrine to nyx, gaea's cradle etc... like I said both can be and maybe should be run together in a control/comp list nothing wrong with running both as for what could get cut for one of them I'm thinking sword of the paruns because it is just so horrible in comparison with umbra mantle and I don't think you need both. Also as far as my knowledge goes ruination blows up every single shock land because they are non-basic lands so boil is still inferior by far.

@ambivalentduck, Thanks for the reply, happy to hear this deck has been playing well for you, I agree with you when you said "the archetype is pretty thoroughly explored", but i still love seeing the small differences people will have in decks that are more or less the same.

For me I enjoy running quite a bit of land hate, Ruination, from the ashes, price of progress, Boiling seas, and Blood moon. Nothing makes me happier than dropping price of progress followed up by either ruination or from the ashes.

For haste, I like Urabrask, the Hidden.
very bad ass card.

chancellor of the forge makes goblin tokens

vicious shadows is very good against board wipes.

Its all I can do to not convert my Norin into Krenko, I must be strong!

..

Norin can only play one kind of game. Krenko can play 3-4 distinct strategies: combo, token aggro, general voltron, control.

Quote from ambivalentduck

Norin can only play one kind of game. Krenko can play 3-4 distinct strategies: combo, token aggro, general voltron, control.

I used to play Kiki a long time ago, but could never get any of those combos to work, high counter/removal meta, having a similar problem with Derevi now.

..

In that meta, Maelstrom Wanderer is probably ideal. Just keep lobbing bombs until something sticks.

Krenko isn't dissimilar, though. So long as you have ways to stick him (ie. Cavern of Souls) and some static haste enabler, you're pretty hard to keep down. I'd be sure to Expedition Map to address your reliance on Cavern of Souls.

Quote from ambivalentduck

Norin can only play one kind of game. Krenko can play 3-4 distinct strategies: combo, token aggro, general voltron, control.

i disagree with most of that. any red commander can do all of the above, combo (kiki), token aggro (krenko), general voltron (godo?), control (jaya). Norin can also make do with generic disruption (and is generically best against blue decks or combo decks because of that), and obviusly can't do voltron, but that's it.
i use norin as my multiplayer edh commander, i've won with combo (why shouldn't you, when you can have kiki in your deck?), token aggro (ogre battledriver into siege-gang commander), general voltron (my opponent's, courtesy of confusion in the ranks).

that said, aside the useless discussion of who is better than the other (especially because the lists differ in, what, 12 cards?), krenko represents a clear threat to each player, and it's difficult (i suppose) to not become the archenemy early just because you have it in your command zone. and when you are not, it's because there is a mass removal in someone's hand, which incidentally foils almost all of the main plans of the deck.

I find it interesting that an argument would state that the decklists are largely the same, so the best idea is to specifically not use the best commander. I think I will instead use the best one, personally.

The real issue to that argument is choosing what is appropriate for one's individual meta, not who is best in a vacuum. If your opponents are not playing particularly strong decks and need to team up on a Krenko deck, then by all means, don't play Krenko. But that is a poor reason to dissuade someone in a different meta from running the better card.

I kind of see the issue. When I started my quest for a mono red deck, I started with Purphorous, well that led to my meta trying any way they could to tuck him, since he is next to impossible to get rid of, so I got tired of playing that game so I switched to Norin, though it is entertaining watching him bounce around and do silly thing, I have never won with Norin, he just bounces around, bounce, bounce, bounce, I cast a goblin here and there, they get removed, and I eventually get locked out, or overrun.

I run Krenko in my Norin deck and anytime I try to play him there is an immediate panic by everyone to get rid of him, seriously there can be 10 other flying 7/7's on the table and Krenko must be removed.

I am seriously thinking of making either turbofog with no wincon, or all removal with no wincon, just because it seems like whatever I play it immediately becomes the threat, and is blown up.

..

Well, the reaction to Krenko is because he is very good. So, rather than make the deck worse in order to draw less attention, maybe adjust the strategy and card choices enough to leverage opportunities to actually use Krenko. Don't just randomly run him out, make it meaningful. Make some plays to exhaust some of their resources first. Get an Anger in the bin. Whatever it takes. But to me the key statement is that Norin never wins.

I find that a lot of times subtlety to strategy allows us to win with the same cards we have been losing with. Just a slightly different play order, or masking our true intentions can easily end up making the difference in creating the small window it takes for a good deck to win.

That said, I have never played a Krenko deck in my life. If you want more resiliency to hate, you can splash black for Wort, Boggart Auntie, who runs a very similar strategy, but one with access to black tutors, and more importantly Living Death/Patriarch's Bidding. The minimal amount of needed black mana allows you to still run NBL hate, and Wort herself provides a solid means to recover and win in battles of attrition. Also can be surprisingly relevant for voltron commander damage given her fear.

it might be me, but norin gave me a fair share of wins. it all comes down to how players work with/against each other, i suppose. either way, as in every game of this kind, it's not the best commander who wins (unless they can take 3 or more players from the start of the game) but the player who can manipulate all others into thinking he's not a threat. then, when all other players have worn each other out, Norin slams down the confusion in the ranks/pandemonium/purphoros and that's the move that wins the game.

to be honest, if i had to choose between red commanders for a cutthroat environment, it would be purphoros. norin folds vs aggro, and krenko folds vs pillowfort and stax.

I certainly agree that success of decks is often fairly metagame dependant.

As for the idea that Krenko folds vs pillowfort or stax, I certainly disagree. Krenko shifts to combo mode against pillowfort, assuming an inability to remove fort pieces, and actually thrives against stax if the commander sticks...

I'd suggest Altar of Dementia as an additional free sac outlet and alt win condition if you're locked out of attacking by Ghostly Prison/Norn's Annex.