I don't see Opposition mentioned in OP. There is a healthy number of creatures that would benefit from hasted tap ability not connected to Phenax and it could provide some pillowfort capabilities (for you and for other players in case you need an argument in table politics). What do you think about it?
I'm building Phenax mill in more combo finish / group hug oriented way (if you can call Forced Fruition and Font on Mythos group hug cards), so I should benefit quite a lot from extending the game as much as possible but I need mass bounce effects like [Ætherspouts] so any suggestions of those are welcome (Evacuation and Cyclonic Rift are already in).
There's also Ætherize. There are other effects one can use, though. The aforementioned Turnabout can be used, as well as Domineering Will. Both of these can be used to manipulate combat on a turn or help you mill somebody out. I tend to refrain from using Evacuation in this kind of deck, though.
I always viewed Opposition as more of a card for decks that go wide as hell and/or abuse untaps. Not sure it'd manage to live life to the fullest here, but admittedly I'm not a Phenax player myself.
I'm putting together this deck as my first non-precon EDH deck, and I was wondering about a few cards: Lupine Prototype : This card looks like a good 5-butt for 2 generic mana. Doesn't help devotion, but I think that this is a minor point since that makes Phenax less vulnerable to creature exile spells. 1 Cheaper than Kefnet for same butt. Isleback Spawn: What's the consensus on this one? 4/8 for 7 isn't great, but when somebody dropped below 20 cards it gets +4/+8 and thus mills for 16 per tap. Is this a "Win more" card? Trophy Mage : Is this worth a card slot to call-up 3 drop mana-rocks?
Lupine Prototype is so fun and flavorful. But in most cases, we're better off with a wall. Even if it runs run more mana, we'll get some devotion, a bigger butt, and an immediate blocker. I am curious what you mean about exile protection though.
What I meant was that it could sometimes save Phenax from spells that target creatures since lupine can help keep devotion below threshold. As an example, last week Phenax doesn't die to fumigate since my lack of devotion saved his bacon. (This is somewhat of a magical christmas land scenario, but it being below threshold can help from time to time.
Trophy Mage could be useful if you really find yourself hurting for certain artifacts and Vampiric Tutor is out of your price range. Personally though I don't feel the need.
What I meant was that it could sometimes save Phenax from spells that target creatures since lupine can help keep devotion below threshold. As an example, last week Phenax doesn't die to fumigate since my lack of devotion saved his bacon. (This is somewhat of a magical christmas land scenario, but it being below threshold can help from time to time.
Not being a creature is often nice, for sure. But there's a lot of perks to him being a creature. And so I'm not totally opposed to it.
The Scarab God: This card seems fantastic. I'm planning on testing it pretty much immediately. The removal protection makes it solid for pillowfort. We can just throw it at attacking creatures. And then its abilities can turn milled creatures into more gas. It can even serve as a secondary wincon. Razaketh, the Foulblooded: It's a powerful card for sure and a tutor on a stick. But it really doesn't do enough for its cost in this deck. Bontu's Last Reckoning: It's a super cheap boardwipe, which is great. But I'm not sure the downside is worth the low cost. Hour of Eternity: I love what this card does, and how it comboes with mill. But it feels WAY too overcosted. It costs five mana just to get a single token. And unlike The Scarab God, it's single use. So it'll end up taking a ton of mana at once to not do much. Fraying Sanity: I'm really iffy on this one, and think I'll probably pass. Sure, it can end up milling a bunch of cards. But it's only effective against a single target. And I'm not totally sure if it'll end up being win-more or not. Mirage Mirror: This seems like it could be really strong in most EDH decks. I just need to see if I can find a spot for it somewhere.
There's an unconfirmed card from Ixalan that intrigues me: Fleet Swallower (I assume the name is tentative). When it attacks, it's basically a Traumatize. Combined with Fraying Sanity it's basically GG for that cursed opponent. Any thoughts on it? I run Traumatize in my build and being able to "cast Traumatize" everytime you attack with a creature is pretty sweet.
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The lands are interesting for sure. May be worth considering.
I'm really not sure the deck has enough instants for Isochron Scepter to be worth it. As for Paradox Engine and Dramatic Reversal, I'm not saying they're not great. But I'm not sure they outperform anything in the deck. Nor is there a pressing need to pull something of a different role.
Is the deck in the primer an updated version of the deck?? Doesn't seem like there is much chatter about this deck anymore.
Loved reading the primer wallabe.. Very detailed.
I have a edh Mill deck but it runs way more mill and some newer cards forsure.. But I love this control package you have surrounding the deck and alternate wincons using graveyard creatures..
You def right in the primer as saying even if you just mill plp for 1-3 cards they instantly see you as a thread even though there decks are 99 cards..
So I def see the value in removing some of my mill cards and add better support.
Just curious if you or anyone still plays this deck.. Or any upgrades that you have made since 2017.
I appreciate the interest. It's probably time to blow the dust off this deck.
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."
I appreciate the interest. It's probably time to blow the dust off this deck.
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."
Yeah, Animate Library is just crazy in EDH. That card would be crazy as a creature regardless since it's basically a */* creature for 4UU that has: "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your library." which is just insanity regardless the format.
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I appreciate the interest. It's probably time to blow the dust off this deck.
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."
Yeah, Animate Library is just crazy in EDH. That card would be crazy as a creature regardless since it's basically a */* creature for 4UU that has: "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your library." which is just insanity regardless the format.
The best part is the the library has already been “under your control” when it hits the field, so you can mill someone out immediately
So thanks for the suggestion but our group doesn't allow unhinged cards. So no animate library for me
So I'm alittle bit on a budget(try not to buy cards $8 or more in bunches)so the below cards are just a little bit out of my price range or haven't saved up to pick them up.. Do you have any suggestions for some budget plays for these cards.
These cards I didn't have either but I had some cards in my previous mill deck that I thought were pretty close to the same idea or filled the spot atlest .. Your cards def do the job better but I thought these might be decent substitutes. Thoughts on this?
I remember reading in the primer somewhere that you didn't want to include silent arbiter because it didn't add to Phenax devotion.. Why do you want it to be a creature?? Just for blocking purposes.. I find in my meta I want to keep it a enchantment as much as I can as it is way harder to remove than a creature is.
So I don't like any infinite combos in my deck..(only reason I mention this is I will always remove cards from a build if they are infinite combos or automatic wincons as I don't enjoy those cards and our group doesn't allow them)
I know eater of the dead and Phenax is close to infinite if there are enough creature cards but I don't see that as a true infinite combo and am ok with things like that in my deck….
I do like this nifty little combo I have in my deck at the moment. spell crumple / junk troller / vessel of endless rest. Use 1 of those 3 to put a card on bottom of owners library.. Then I play tunnel vision... And mill them out for next turn.. I've only hit it twice the 10 times I played my deck but it's super fun.. But I should prob remove it as it's not consistent and only takes care of one opponent and I am usually playing against 2 or 3 other plp
Here are some cards im curious why you don't run.. I think some have been discussed as good but hard to find something in the deck to remove for them.
guiltfeeder also prob doesn't last till next turn but it makes them use removal on him instead of something else and if not its instant kill with him most of the time. So he seems like a nice wincon to include
slagwurm armor seems like a nice pump to help some creature mill for more
fleet swallower prob is another creature who doesn't see a next turn.. But would be game changing if he does.. But prob only good for one time as someone prob blocks and kills him.. So prob less effective then guiltfeeder
fraying sanity is awesome.. But only targeting one person stinks.. But might not be awful to hold on hand till only 1 opponent is left and then play it?
mind grind not worth it in most your testing? I liked that it targets everyone at the table and usually mills a decent amount even just paying 6 mana(4 colorless) for it. But maybe it's just not strong enough
mnemonic betrayal any good in this deck you think? Or prob not enough value for us?
bonehoard I thought was a decent card as it makes a 0/0 creature if we don't have any on the battlefield and gives a nice fat butt for us to mill with its +x/+x
infinite reflections could be a fun card if you could copy sewer nemesis or something fatty.. But might be too situational for this deck.
Forced Fruition is this a card you have ever considered.. It's expensive alittle bit but man it could really get some players to draw a ton
So overall I love most of your deck.. It isn't as mill forward as I was trying to build but that's prob why it's better as it can do more than just mill.. It disrupts/controls other plp as well as use all those cards going in the graveyard to my advantage. So A few cards are out of budget for me at the moment.. But I'm trying to make do with what I have. So any advice on the above cards would be great.. Or if you have other cards I could fit into the spots I'm missing let me know.. But for now I will try and run about 95% your build and see how a game or two goes…
Thanks for any reply you can give.. Don't feel you need to take the time and address every card or anything but any help would be appreciated.
I used to run a Phenax deck and have followed the thread for a while, so I'll attempt to answer some of your questions, mate, at least from my perspective.
So I'm alittle bit on a budget(try not to buy cards $8 or more in bunches)so the below cards are just a little bit out of my price range or haven't saved up to pick them up.. Do you have any suggestions for some budget plays for these cards.
These are somewhat unique, but try to think in terms of what they do when looking for replacements: instant-speed counterspell on a body that can be tapped to mill, clone, recursion and light stax, card draw, board wipe, theft.
Clone is pretty easy. Clever Impersonator is a bit less expensive than Metamorph and still allow you to copy other types of permanents. Then there are other clone variants that are cheaper, like Stunt Double.
I can't think of a replacement for Sheoldred, honestly. Not a direct one, as she's three things: light stax to keep your opponents off creatures unless they have good token generation, recursion for your creatures, and a big body to attack with (I'm surprised Urborg isn't in the OP list) or tap to mill. There are ways to do these, but would cover multiple separate cards.
Nor can I think of a direct replacement for Bribery as it accomplishes a couple things: removes a threat or tool from your opponent and places it in your hands. Only things that could come close, IIRC, are Dimir Doppelganger if you're able to destroy an existing threat in another way, Nemesis Trap if they ever attack with it already on the field, or various ways of gaining control of once it's cast or after it's on the battlefield. None of them allow you to search like Bribery, though.
The advantage of Toxic Deluge as a wipe is that it gets around indestructible and with higher toughness on your creatures can be asymmetrical in some circumstances. But you could replace it with other wipes, such as Life's Finale which could replace part of Bribery if you're able to steal from their graveyard in some way.
These cards I didn't have either but I had some cards in my previous mill deck that I thought were pretty close to the same idea or filled the spot atlest .. Your cards def do the job better but I thought these might be decent substitutes. Thoughts on this?
Pemmin's Aura, Freed from the Real, etc. work will with King Macar's tokens, but it's the same risk as with any aura, though I did use them to good effect when I ran such things. Sepulchral Primordial works best with recursion, but could be useful. Animate Dead is an okay substitute - you only lose the option of instant speed. Nothing quite like No Mercy, either, as it puts stuff in the graveyard for some of Phenax's troops to get bigger. Dissipation Field may be an option, but Arbiter might work, too. I've found that attack deterrents have a psychological component that may have varying effectiveness in different playgroups (e.g. Crawlspace might work in a meta where Arbiter gets shot down immediately or accidentally helps an Exalt deck). I don't think Visions of Beyond is a good substitute for Rhystic Study as you should probably prefer permanent-based card draw that's repeatable instead of one-shots. The other substitutes are okay. Mutilate might be a wipe to consider, too - also Aether Snap. Wipes can be meta-dependent calls, too.
I remember reading in the primer somewhere that you didn't want to include silent arbiter because it didn't add to Phenax devotion.. Why do you want it to be a creature?? Just for blocking purposes.. I find in my meta I want to keep it a enchantment as much as I can as it is way harder to remove than a creature is.
Not just for blocking. Phenax can tap and mill for 7 with his own ability. The indestructibility still helps. If there's a lot of targeted exile removal in your meta than you may indeed want to control your devotion.
So I don't like any infinite combos in my deck..(only reason I mention this is I will always remove cards from a build if they are infinite combos or automatic wincons as I don't enjoy those cards and our group doesn't allow them)
I know eater of the dead and Phenax is close to infinite if there are enough creature cards but I don't see that as a true infinite combo and am ok with things like that in my deck….
I do like this nifty little combo I have in my deck at the moment. spell crumple / junk troller / vessel of endless rest. Use 1 of those 3 to put a card on bottom of owners library.. Then I play tunnel vision... And mill them out for next turn.. I've only hit it twice the 10 times I played my deck but it's super fun.. But I should prob remove it as it's not consistent and only takes care of one opponent and I am usually playing against 2 or 3 other plp
That's fine to remove if you want to since there are other things to shore up. I've removed gimmicks or even win conditions before after they were successful a couple times to make room for something new to try. I will warn you that Intruder Alarm tends to be an enabler for combos and will go off with Undead Alchemist. I have milled multiple folks out with Eater + Phenax in at least one game because one deck was creature heavy and I milled them a lot first to have fuel for milling the others.
Here are some cards im curious why you don't run.. I think some have been discussed as good but hard to find something in the deck to remove for them.
On this I can definitely only comment from my perspective, and will have to change format a bit to use your list rather than quote it. Mostly, though, it may all come down to filling in some of the important stuff like card draw, removal, and protection, then see what slots are left for testing.
Guiltfeeder — I never ended up running this guy because if they have a black or artifact creature they can just chump block. I prefer effects like Mindcrank or Bloodchief Ascension that can affect other things I do instead of being one-time tricks. However those two cards are a combo, plus a well known one where if you see one players might expect the other and focus you.
Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real — The auras can be dependent on support cards sometimes, but Reversal is good. It can also work as single-turn pseudo vigilance or as "ritual" for extra mana. Also see Turnabout.
Hover Barrier/Wall of Frost — I didn't use walls much. Their main usefulness is if Phenax is on the battlefield and otherwise they're pretty weak, though a non-white Wall of Denial would be okay if there were such a thing. Meishin, the Mind Cage is interesting, though.
Fleet Swallower — Devastating if you can protect it. Eats removal. Could be worth testing.
Fraying Sanity — You don't really want to have cards that are dead in hand until a certain time late-game. There are other enchantments like Psychic Corrosion that are more useful throughout the game.
Mind Grind — Run it and see if it works for you. It can mill quite a bit to make it worth the one casting, especially if that's all you needed to get things moving for your other graveyard-dependent stuff like some creatures' power/toughness or methods of stealing from those graveyards. See if you can get Undead Alchemist out first, though.
Mnemonic Betrayal — That's like a reverse Yawgmoth's Will except for theft. Need to have mana for casting, of course, but it does also pose a risk to Mortivore-type stuff.
Bonehoard — I lump this in with Mortivore-type stuff since it's just as useful at the same times.
Fabricate — Restricted tutors are risky. It depends how important those artifacts are, when you could run Diabolic Tutor instead.
Infinite Reflection — This will not work the way you imagined with Sewer Nemesis. Any creature under your control already on the battlefield that became a copy of the original Sewer Nemesis would not copy its chosen player. With no chosen player their P/T would be 0/0 and they'd die. Any new creatures entering as a copy of Sewer Nemesis, however, would get their own choice of player as they enter. You'd also have to make sure that your devotion (including that supplied by Infinite Reflection would not tip Phenax into being a creature, too. Bit too risky for the deck unless you built around it a lot.
Forced Fruition — It is very powerful, but could also paint a huge target on you. This kind of thing seems to me more prevalent in a mono-blue mill deck that does the job mostly by draw and discard. Some cards from those kind of decks like Jace's Archivist might be useful, though.
So overall I love most of your deck.. It isn't as mill forward as I was trying to build but that's prob why it's better as it can do more than just mill.. It disrupts/controls other plp as well as use all those cards going in the graveyard to my advantage.
It does help to have a plan B, and the control elements to slow other players down (or at least slow down their efforts to kill you).
I used to run a Phenax deck and have followed the thread for a while, so I'll attempt to answer some of your questions, mate, at least from my perspective.
These are somewhat unique, but try to think in terms of what they do when looking for replacements: instant-speed counterspell on a body that can be tapped to mill, clone, recursion and light stax, card draw, board wipe, theft.
It does help to have a plan B, and the control elements to slow other players down (or at least slow down their efforts to kill you).
Thanks so much for taking the time to put together a detailed reply..a lot of what you said made a lot of sense.. I appreciate the other card suggestions as well... I will prob just save up and pick up some of the key cards im missing and fill in the other gaps..
Again I appreciate the time you took to respond and help out
So I've played a couple games over the weekend.. And I gotta say wow… the primer and some of the suggestions by other users were awesome.. My old mill deck where I just chucked every mill creature or spell into the deck was never able to gain the ground it needed to win.. But This deck is playable from lots of different angles and I won 1v3 and 1v1 all but once in the 5 times I played.
So above is my deck.. I'm pretty set on most cards but there is a section of unsure cards that I def need some help on.
Cards that did well
Here are some highlight of playing my build at the moment.
So altar of dementia is def the star of this deck.. It is so good. Def worth its price.
Glen Elendra Archmage OMG.. I am so glad I bought this card.. It was such a great play and I'm pretty sure I was lucky to draw it every game but once.. Def a star player.
Sphinx’s disciple was put in the deck for some draw and helped the one game I drew it. Even though its casting cost is a little high.
animate dead also did well.. I lost the game I used it in.. But he helped me stay relevant
Underwhelming card
springleaf drum was VERY underwhelming for me the time I got it.. Could've just been the game but didn't seem to need it.. Or if I could of used it I would of rather used the creature to tap and mill.. But it's such a low casting cost it's hard to remove.. Only card I thought about replacing it with was mind stone any suggestions or insight to this card?
Weakness of my build
My glaring weakness for this deck is def DRAW and the next weakness is RECURSION.. I def almost ran out of steam after a board wipe with not having any draw in the game.. And honestly if I had played in a 4 person match instead of a 3 person match I prob would of lost.. But luckily I was ahead enough to eeeekkk out the win.
Also when my nighthowler or sewer nemesis got sent to the graveyard it would of been nice to just get it right back. And with having no draw I was sore out of luck with my big guys gone.
So I def need to address those 2 parts of my deck… rhystic study is def on my need to get list.. As this is prob the best card to help me. Next up would be phyrexian arena. My only worry about phyrexian is it isn't a choice.. Has anyone ever died to this.. Or is that highly unlikely.?
Cards I'm considering
So again I'm on a budget so I can't just go grab the best card for the job at the moment.
Draw:
-what would be your go to if you had to have some budget draw bloodgift demon mind stone monastery siege kumena’s awakening loyal drake taigam, sidis's hand(this card really intrigues me.. It's both a scry(which helps with drawing the right stuff) and essentially a killl spell to indestructible or other pesky creatures. I feel like this is a really nice card.. Am I missing anything here?
These cards im not sold on and could drop them for anything new.
mind grind and pemmin’s aura are actually the only 2 out of this list I ever drew during my 5 games so can't really give the others a fair shake.
But mind grind got countered both times.. I feel this might happen a lot and if so I wasted all my mana that turn. pemmin’s aura I had in hand when I had no creatures on the board and no in hand so that card turned bad really fast.. I see why morphling is far superior.
So any advice to help me tune my budget build some more would be amazing..
I honestly wasn't expecting such an in-depth post. I'll gladly tackle all of it, of course. I'm going to aim for tomorrow; I'm just way too exhausted right now to give your posts the proper reply they deserve
Sphinx’s disciple was put in the deck for some draw and helped the one game I drew it. Even though its casting cost is a little high.
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springleaf drum was VERY underwhelming for me the time I got it.. Could've just been the game but didn't seem to need it.. Or if I could of used it I would of rather used the creature to tap and mill.. But it's such a low casting cost it's hard to remove.. Only card I thought about replacing it with was mind stone any suggestions or insight to this card?
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So I def need to address those 2 parts of my deck… rhystic study is def on my need to get list.. As this is prob the best card to help me. Next up would be phyrexian arena. My only worry about phyrexian is it isn't a choice.. Has anyone ever died to this.. Or is that highly unlikely.?
Yeah, not the best option, that Disciple. The thing about Springleaf Drum is that it's not just a mana rock — it's an enabler for your creatures that need to tap (Inspired ones, Surgespanner, Knacksaw Clique) when Phenax isn't online. One of my main decks is suicide mono-black control and Phyrexian Arena has never been a threat to taking myself out of the game by life loss on top of all the other life I pay. Rhystic Study might annoy people, it might not, but it's a good card, too. Just need to know your playgroup, because you don't want to be Archenemy. Also don't forget that you can copy somebody else's draw with a clone or steal one with Praetor's Grasp.
Also when my nighthowler or sewer nemesis got sent to the graveyard it would of been nice to just get it right back. And with having no draw I was sore out of luck with my big guys gone.
This is hard to comment on because I don't know if your timing when using them was good or if you over-committed your board state.
Monastery Siege is along the right lines as permanents that will continually allow you to see more cards (draw+discard is "looting" rather than "draw", though). Kumena's Awakening is similar, but I'm not sure how soon you can get the city's blessing so that you're not giving opponents cards. Loyal Drake is cute by requires your commander to be out.
Mind Stone is not a draw option like the above. Unless you've got some sort of artifact recursion engine going where you can keep using it to draw (and there isn't here), you probably shouldn't consider one-time draw unless it's a small handful of spells that give you 2-3 cards (Divination, Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, etc.) and even then those are usually used early on in the game or as a supplement to permanent-based draw later.
Taigam, Sidisi's Hand is not what you want, especially since it makes you skip your draw step and put 2/3 of your cards in your graveyard (you were just mentioning recursion).
Don't go all-out adding draw options. Start with two permanent-based ones like Phyrexian Arena and Rhystic Study.
Comments on Your Recursion Options
Cauldron of Souls might draw too much attention. You probably want to have the ability to recover, not look like you're setting up shenanigans/combo.
These cards im not sold on and could drop them for anything new.
mind grind and pemmin’s aura are actually the only 2 out of this list I ever drew during my 5 games so can't really give the others a fair shake.
But mind grind got countered both times.. I feel this might happen a lot and if so I wasted all my mana that turn. pemmin’s aura I had in hand when I had no creatures on the board and no in hand so that card turned bad really fast.. I see why morphling is far superior.
Fleet Swallower is a Must-Answer card — your opponents can't let it stay around to attack them and it will get destroyed/exiled if they can. You're okay to cut that one.
Harvester of Souls isn't going to draw you much in the way of cards since you're not making other nontoken creatures die. Good in a different sort of deck.
Intellectual Offering seems like Dramatic Reversal or Turnabout. Those mass-untappers can be used as finishers to get another round of taps out of your creatures, but they tend to be win-more because if you're already in that position you're doing well and only need an extra turn. Better if those slots were control elements to make sure you get to that next turn. Intellectual Offering is a big liability because you're giving an opponent 3 cards and untapping an opponent's stuff. Turnabout is my preferred of that sort of card because you can use it as a ritual to untap your lands, at least, or use it like a pseudo-Sleep in a pinch if you think somebody is going to alpha-strike. But you'll also notice it's not in Wallabe's list, probably because Intruder Alarm turns any of your creature spells into a Turnabout (if you were to target yourself and choose to untap creatures), and anything like Oona or Ghastly Conscription will trigger it multiple times.
Pemmin's Aura is another tap/untap enabler for the Inspired creatures and the like. Give it a chance.
Mind Grind is amazing when you get it through (hence a Counterspell and Muddle the Mixture in the list). If another player might have counters, you might hold on to this until: A. they're tapped out and hope they don't have Pact of Negation or other counter they can cast without mana, or B. You also have a counter and leave open the mana for it to protect your spell.
I noticed Decree of Pain. As wipes go that one is pretty expensive mana-wise. Life's Finale is a decent alternative that can chuck three creatures in the bin (assuming doing so doesn't end up helping a reanimator deck). Let us know what other board wipes you have available to you in UB and we can make suggestions there, too.
P.S. Also you might want to not use Word or whatever when drafting your posts, or at least find and disable the option that automatically changes a normal apostrophe (') to this (’). It was messing with a bunch of the card tags, because Pemmin's Aura works, but Pemmin’s Aura does not due to that character.
@wallabe no worries.. Dont feel like you need to address it all but any insight to my budget build would be great
@lyonhaert
The springleaf drum now makes alot of sense with the "inspired" cards.. I wish it was repeatable in the same turn but thats prob asking to much haha.. Ill def leave it in and see how it works out.. As I said above I only drew it once so I knew I wasn't giving it a fair shake.
Also good to hear about Phyrexian Arena.. This is a card I have to buy next time I have the money.. It's def not uber expensive but anything over $5 I only can buy every so often. Rhystic study is def on my list as well but cost is the same reason why I haven't picked it up yet. Also in my play group plp who have it out seem to get it removed or def draws attention to them.. So that is a downside to it but still think my deck needs the draw it can offer.
Your spot on with the over-commited comment about nighthowler and sewer nemesis I almost mentioned that when I posted but it slipped my mind.. But looking back at thst game.. I was already ahead but having open mana just sitting there for a turn or two made me be greedy and commit too much to the board.. I should of just held one back.. That is a missplay on my part.
Also thanks for breaking down each part of my post and going over each card.. Yeah mind stone was a bad suggestion.. I need repeatable not just 1 time.
mind grind is a card I'm still fine with but yeah I knew I was casting it into a player with open mana both times but I was just hoping they weren't holding a counterspell but I was wrong both times.. So my timing just needs to be better if I'm to use that card.
decree of pain is casting cost uber expensive and honestly I just cycle it a lot of the time as in my groups I play against alot of tokens so sometimes the -2-2 is perfect as well as a card draw.. But yeah Life's Finale is prob better here. Just thought decree of pain kinda covered 2 basis. Removal and card draw.. But if I think back to the games I don't think it ever gave me much value and its an AWFUL card to start with or draw early.
I use Google drive(google sheets) to type my responses into.. I'll def look into changing how that program adds (') to my tagged creatures.. I would of never know it wasn't working if you didn't point that out.. Thanks again for all your knowledge so far. (BTW I went back and fixed them all in my deck list I think at)
I hope this budget deck isn't out of place in this forum either and I appreciate you pointing out things I didn't see before that might have been obvious to most.. I'm still learning mtg everyday and there is a lot I miss sometimes.
Cheers
Also good to hear about Phyrexian Arena.. This is a card I have to buy next time I have the money.. It's def not uber expensive but anything over $5 I only can buy every so often. Rhystic study is def on my list as well but cost is the same reason why I haven't picked it up yet. Also in my play group plp who have it out seem to get it removed or def draws attention to them.. So that is a downside to it but still think my deck needs the draw it can offer.
Definitely get Phyrexian Arena first, then. You can live without Rhystic Study and we can examine other options.
decree of pain is casting cost uber expensive and honestly I just cycle it a lot of the time as in my groups I play against alot of tokens so sometimes the -2-2 is perfect as well as a card draw.. But yeah Life's Finale is prob better here. Just thought decree of pain kinda covered 2 basis. Removal and card draw.. But if I think back to the games I don't think it ever gave me much value and its an AWFUL card to start with or draw early.
So there's another term to introduce - "cantrip". A cantrip is a card that replaces itself once used, and cycling Decree of Pain does that (normal cast has the potential to be draw). Even Phyrexian Arena could be thought of as a cantrip on the first card it gets you, and then thought of as draw if it gets you more cards after that.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you may have to tweak your control elements to suit your playgroup. It's possible you find you need Decree and Finale.
I hope this budget deck isn't out of place in this forum either and I appreciate you pointing out things I didn't see before that might have been obvious to most.. I'm still learning mtg everyday and there is a lot I miss sometimes.
Cheers
Not out of place at all. Some primers even have alternate lists for competitive builds and budget builds.
NB: And don't forget - everybody who now understands concepts of building, timing, card advantage, etc. at one point did not understand them.
I'm just going to throw out some inexpensive options for draw that can be considered, though some of them are going to be more of a casual level. A thing to keep in mind is that Phenax lists tend not to have but a small handful of draw sources and a small handful of tutors. You might consider adding an additional tutor like Diabolic Tutor or Beseech the Queen.
So thanks for the suggestion but our group doesn't allow unhinged cards. So no animate library for me
So I'm alittle bit on a budget(try not to buy cards $8 or more in bunches)so the below cards are just a little bit out of my price range or haven't saved up to pick them up.. Do you have any suggestions for some budget plays for these cards.
Sheoldred, Whispering One doesn't have a strong alternative, though you could maybe run Sepulchural Primordial in its place. That being said, it's not super on-flavor. It's more of a goodstuffs card. I'm actually going to be testing The Scarab God in its place.
For Toxic Deluge I would be inclined to run Black Sun's Zenith. Sure, it can cost a lot of mana. But it's re-useable and let's you be selective. Like Deluge, this can let you save you high-toughness creatures.
Bribery is also one without a good analog. It's powerful for sure, and I'd definitely try running it if you have one. But it's not super on-flavor. It's partly a remnant of when this was a Lazav deck.
These cards I didn't have either but I had some cards in my previous mill deck that I thought were pretty close to the same idea or filled the spot atlest .. Your cards def do the job better but I thought these might be decent substitutes. Thoughts on this?
I remember reading in the primer somewhere that you didn't want to include silent arbiter because it didn't add to Phenax devotion.. Why do you want it to be a creature?? Just for blocking purposes.. I find in my meta I want to keep it a enchantment as much as I can as it is way harder to remove than a creature is.
silent arbiter Can certainly get the job done. As you note, part of the reason I skipped it is devotion. It's nice not only have an indestructible blocker in Phenax, but also the extra little bit of mill is nice. The other reason though is I want to avoid drawing any hate. That's why I personally have stayed away from cards that affect everyone, rather than just putting up a pillow in front of me.
No Mercy is tough to replace, as there's not much like it out there. Ideally, I would go for another pillowfort enchantment, so it's just as hard to remove. Collective Restraint is an option. In this deck, it's a strictly worse Propaganda, but it'd do the trick. Or if it's working for you, you can stick with the Arbiter.
Rhystic Study and other draw cards have been talked about plenty in the responses already, so not much to add here.
I like dimir doppelganger a lot, and I like it as a budget option in this deck, too. If you're looking to use it specifically to steal an opponent's creature, that's great. If you want to recur your own, I'd probably just go for a cheap spell that doesn't exile
I do like this nifty little combo I have in my deck at the moment. spell crumple / junk troller / vessel of endless rest. Use 1 of those 3 to put a card on bottom of owners library.. Then I play tunnel vision... And mill them out for next turn.. I've only hit it twice the 10 times I played my deck but it's super fun.. But I should prob remove it as it's not consistent and only takes care of one opponent and I am usually playing against 2 or 3 other plp
This combo has been done in popular EDH decks, like the now retired Wrexial primer. I'm just not a huge fan of it. It's a little too setup dependency in my opinion. But if it's worked for you, I wont' knock it.
guiltfeeder also prob doesn't last till next turn but it makes them use removal on him instead of something else and if not its instant kill with him most of the time. So he seems like a nice wincon to include
slagwurm armor seems like a nice pump to help some creature mill for more
fleet swallower prob is another creature who doesn't see a next turn.. But would be game changing if he does.. But prob only good for one time as someone prob blocks and kills him.. So prob less effective then guiltfeeder
fraying sanity is awesome.. But only targeting one person stinks.. But might not be awful to hold on hand till only 1 opponent is left and then play it?
mind grind not worth it in most your testing? I liked that it targets everyone at the table and usually mills a decent amount even just paying 6 mana(4 colorless) for it. But maybe it's just not strong enough
mnemonic betrayal any good in this deck you think? Or prob not enough value for us?
bonehoard I thought was a decent card as it makes a 0/0 creature if we don't have any on the battlefield and gives a nice fat butt for us to mill with its +x/+x
infinite reflections could be a fun card if you could copy sewer nemesis or something fatty.. But might be too situational for this deck.
Forced Fruition is this a card you have ever considered.. It's expensive alittle bit but man it could really get some players to draw a ton
Mortivore, Wight of Precinct Six, and Bonehoard are all great in the deck. But for only growing off of creatures, there's just too many cards competing for their spot.
Guiltfeeder was in the deck for a long time. Ultimately, I kind of moved away from attack-based cards. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. And if you like them, more power to you. But I felt like there wasn't enough support in this deck for most attackers.
slagwurm armor is just outpaced by too many things. As an equipment, it's a little on the slower side, and doesn't do anything by itself. And while the +0/+6 does buff mill and is super on-theme, it just doesn't do enough I feel.
I would love to run Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real. Honestly, I just have no idea where to put them. They're strong with this deck and super on flavor. But they need to outperform another card in the deck to get a slot. You could maybe go with a control slot if you're less worried about that.
This deck used to run Hover Barrier before I discovered Drift of Phantasms. With all the strong cards available to us, there's only so much room for walls in here. And I like the utility (and gimmick) of Transmute more than I dislike the one lost toughness. And then Wall of Frost feels like a better deterrent. Sure, it lacks flying. But it can survive slightly bigger hits, and enemies want to run into it a hell of a lot less.
I do think Fleet Swallower is worth testing for sure. I'm just worried about it being combat-oriented. The deck doesn't really have any way to give it evasion or support it. I'd love to hear about it if you try it. Otherwise, I'd have to figure out what slot it could even work in.
Fraying Sanity is another one that's interesting, but needs to be tested. I'm torn on it just looking at it. It can only hit one player, and doesn't do anything by itself. But a mill double is nothing to laugh at.
The issue with Mind Grind is that it doesn't hit any single player hard enough. You're milling roughly 2.5 cards per X per player on average. At a big table, spending like 6 mana for x=4 will mill you for 10 cards a player on average, which could be a ton in total. But the way it's spread out means there's no real amount of mana to spend on it that feels satisfying.
Mnemonic Betrayal is honestly just too new for me to have tested yet. I want to love it so bad. It's not an auto-include though, as I'm just not sure if we'll be able to get enough value out of it if we've already spent three mana this turn just to cast it. With more mana generation, it would definitely be a blowout. As it is, we'll see.
With the number of artifacts in this deck, I feel like the scope of Fabricate is just too limited. If you're on a budget, it has a few worthwhile targets for sure. But there are much more powerful and/or more fun and gimmicky (looking at you transmute) out there. If you're looking for another niche tutor, I'd be more tempted by Shred Memory for this deck.
Infinite Reflections is probably more win-more than anything in this deck. I wouldn't want to use it on a utility card like King Macar, the Gold-Cursed so it would go on a win-con. So that already makes it pretty conditional. And then it's only providing value on a win-con that can't get me home by itself.
I largely agree with Lyonheart on Forced Fruition. It may not draw you crazy amounts of hate, because everyone loves draw. But I'd be more inclined to run something like Jace's Archivist instead.
So overall I love most of your deck.. It isn't as mill forward as I was trying to build but that's prob why it's better as it can do more than just mill.. It disrupts/controls other plp as well as use all those cards going in the graveyard to my advantage. So A few cards are out of budget for me at the moment.. But I'm trying to make do with what I have. So any advice on the above cards would be great.. Or if you have other cards I could fit into the spots I'm missing let me know.. But for now I will try and run about 95% your build and see how a game or two goes…
Thanks for any reply you can give.. Don't feel you need to take the time and address every card or anything but any help would be appreciated.
Thanks man! It definitely does sacrifice some potential mill in areas like control. But I'm pretty happy with the balance. Where you play it might be different though, so I can't say running more mill is necessarily a bad thing.
@wallabe thanks so much for taking the time and going over each card.
The Scarab God seems like a nice addition.. Might have to give that card a try
You def reccomended some great cards and explained why some just don't work the way we need them to.
I'll tinker with my build slightly and re test it over the next few weeks and check back in and let you know how it's going.. Also going to give a look over "war of spark" when it's completely spoiled and see if there are any cards that could be put in this deck.
Thanks for taking the time to put the primer together as well as checking back in on it.
I do keep forgetting about Underworld Connections. I originally omitted Erebos based on price, thinking that since Arena is similar in price it would be the priority. But Erebos gets a nice big size 7 butt if he gets BBB more devotion aside from himself and Phenax.
There's also Ætherize. There are other effects one can use, though. The aforementioned Turnabout can be used, as well as Domineering Will. Both of these can be used to manipulate combat on a turn or help you mill somebody out. I tend to refrain from using Evacuation in this kind of deck, though.
Since you're going for combo and extra card draw, have you considered these cards? (This is assuming you'll already have things like Eater of the Dead and Intruder Alarm)
Bloodline Keeper
Jace's Archivist
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old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
What I meant was that it could sometimes save Phenax from spells that target creatures since lupine can help keep devotion below threshold. As an example, last week Phenax doesn't die to fumigate since my lack of devotion saved his bacon. (This is somewhat of a magical christmas land scenario, but it being below threshold can help from time to time.
I used it to call-up Thousand-Year Elixir and combo-out a game when I dropped Eater of the Dead the next turn.
Not being a creature is often nice, for sure. But there's a lot of perks to him being a creature. And so I'm not totally opposed to it.
It definitely has some powerful potential. But I feel like we have better tutor potential available if you really want it.
The Scarab God: This card seems fantastic. I'm planning on testing it pretty much immediately. The removal protection makes it solid for pillowfort. We can just throw it at attacking creatures. And then its abilities can turn milled creatures into more gas. It can even serve as a secondary wincon.
Razaketh, the Foulblooded: It's a powerful card for sure and a tutor on a stick. But it really doesn't do enough for its cost in this deck.
Bontu's Last Reckoning: It's a super cheap boardwipe, which is great. But I'm not sure the downside is worth the low cost.
Hour of Eternity: I love what this card does, and how it comboes with mill. But it feels WAY too overcosted. It costs five mana just to get a single token. And unlike The Scarab God, it's single use. So it'll end up taking a ton of mana at once to not do much.
Fraying Sanity: I'm really iffy on this one, and think I'll probably pass. Sure, it can end up milling a bunch of cards. But it's only effective against a single target. And I'm not totally sure if it'll end up being win-more or not.
Mirage Mirror: This seems like it could be really strong in most EDH decks. I just need to see if I can find a spot for it somewhere.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I'll go over the rest of the set once the full spoiler is up.
I'm really not sure the deck has enough instants for Isochron Scepter to be worth it. As for Paradox Engine and Dramatic Reversal, I'm not saying they're not great. But I'm not sure they outperform anything in the deck. Nor is there a pressing need to pull something of a different role.
Loved reading the primer wallabe.. Very detailed.
I have a edh Mill deck but it runs way more mill and some newer cards forsure.. But I love this control package you have surrounding the deck and alternate wincons using graveyard creatures..
You def right in the primer as saying even if you just mill plp for 1-3 cards they instantly see you as a thread even though there decks are 99 cards..
So I def see the value in removing some of my mill cards and add better support.
Just curious if you or anyone still plays this deck.. Or any upgrades that you have made since 2017.
As always, I'm open to suggestions for the deck. And every time a new sets comes out, you can bet I'm keeping an eye open for cards for the deck. Over the past couple years, only two cards have really caught my eyes as contenders for the deck. The first Animate Library, which is damn near an auto-include if your playgroup is open to it. The second is The Scarab God. The reanimation can be great for saving another creature, plus it goes great with mill. It has synergies with other cards in the deck, is hard to remove, and could even be an alternate wincon. This is currently something I'm "testing."
Yeah, Animate Library is just crazy in EDH. That card would be crazy as a creature regardless since it's basically a */* creature for 4UU that has: "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your library." which is just insanity regardless the format.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The best part is the the library has already been “under your control” when it hits the field, so you can mill someone out immediately
So I'm alittle bit on a budget(try not to buy cards $8 or more in bunches)so the below cards are just a little bit out of my price range or haven't saved up to pick them up.. Do you have any suggestions for some budget plays for these cards.
Glen Elendra Archmage
Phyrexian metamorph
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Phyrexian Arena
Toxic deluge
Bribery
These cards I didn't have either but I had some cards in my previous mill deck that I thought were pretty close to the same idea or filled the spot atlest .. Your cards def do the job better but I thought these might be decent substitutes. Thoughts on this?
Morphling -- Pemmin's Aura
Geth, lord of the Vault ----Sepulchral Primordial
Necromancy--- animate dead
No mercy--- silent arbiter (prob the worst one of the bunch)
Rustic study ---visions of Beyond
Reanimate --dimir doppelganger
Damnation--- decree of pain
I remember reading in the primer somewhere that you didn't want to include silent arbiter because it didn't add to Phenax devotion.. Why do you want it to be a creature?? Just for blocking purposes.. I find in my meta I want to keep it a enchantment as much as I can as it is way harder to remove than a creature is.
So I don't like any infinite combos in my deck..(only reason I mention this is I will always remove cards from a build if they are infinite combos or automatic wincons as I don't enjoy those cards and our group doesn't allow them)
I know eater of the dead and Phenax is close to infinite if there are enough creature cards but I don't see that as a true infinite combo and am ok with things like that in my deck….
I do like this nifty little combo I have in my deck at the moment. spell crumple / junk troller / vessel of endless rest. Use 1 of those 3 to put a card on bottom of owners library.. Then I play tunnel vision... And mill them out for next turn.. I've only hit it twice the 10 times I played my deck but it's super fun.. But I should prob remove it as it's not consistent and only takes care of one opponent and I am usually playing against 2 or 3 other plp
Here are some cards im curious why you don't run.. I think some have been discussed as good but hard to find something in the deck to remove for them.
mortivore and Wright of precinct six seem to fit right at home here
guiltfeeder also prob doesn't last till next turn but it makes them use removal on him instead of something else and if not its instant kill with him most of the time. So he seems like a nice wincon to include
slagwurm armor seems like a nice pump to help some creature mill for more
dramatic reversal and freed from the real seem great in this deck with all the inspired and obviously with Phenax ability to tap and mill…
hover barrier see any play.. Or is wall of frost much better?
fleet swallower prob is another creature who doesn't see a next turn.. But would be game changing if he does.. But prob only good for one time as someone prob blocks and kills him.. So prob less effective then guiltfeeder
fraying sanity is awesome.. But only targeting one person stinks.. But might not be awful to hold on hand till only 1 opponent is left and then play it?
mind grind not worth it in most your testing? I liked that it targets everyone at the table and usually mills a decent amount even just paying 6 mana(4 colorless) for it. But maybe it's just not strong enough
mnemonic betrayal any good in this deck you think? Or prob not enough value for us?
bonehoard I thought was a decent card as it makes a 0/0 creature if we don't have any on the battlefield and gives a nice fat butt for us to mill with its +x/+x
fabricate could find a spot to get us altar of dementia or thousand-year elixir. V could also get us some mana ramp if we needed it in a pinch. any reason to fit it in?
infinite reflections could be a fun card if you could copy sewer nemesis or something fatty.. But might be too situational for this deck.
Forced Fruition is this a card you have ever considered.. It's expensive alittle bit but man it could really get some players to draw a ton
So overall I love most of your deck.. It isn't as mill forward as I was trying to build but that's prob why it's better as it can do more than just mill.. It disrupts/controls other plp as well as use all those cards going in the graveyard to my advantage. So A few cards are out of budget for me at the moment.. But I'm trying to make do with what I have. So any advice on the above cards would be great.. Or if you have other cards I could fit into the spots I'm missing let me know.. But for now I will try and run about 95% your build and see how a game or two goes…
Thanks for any reply you can give.. Don't feel you need to take the time and address every card or anything but any help would be appreciated.
These are somewhat unique, but try to think in terms of what they do when looking for replacements: instant-speed counterspell on a body that can be tapped to mill, clone, recursion and light stax, card draw, board wipe, theft.
The first could possibly be just a counter. If you want to keep it on a body there are some alternatives you could consider, though some may not be as effective: Kheru Spellsnatcher, Siren Stormtamer (much narrower), Spiketail Drakeling, Spiketail Hatchling, Voidmage Apprentice, Voidmage Prodigy, Wizard Replica.
Clone is pretty easy. Clever Impersonator is a bit less expensive than Metamorph and still allow you to copy other types of permanents. Then there are other clone variants that are cheaper, like Stunt Double.
I can't think of a replacement for Sheoldred, honestly. Not a direct one, as she's three things: light stax to keep your opponents off creatures unless they have good token generation, recursion for your creatures, and a big body to attack with (I'm surprised Urborg isn't in the OP list) or tap to mill. There are ways to do these, but would cover multiple separate cards.
Nor can I think of a direct replacement for Bribery as it accomplishes a couple things: removes a threat or tool from your opponent and places it in your hands. Only things that could come close, IIRC, are Dimir Doppelganger if you're able to destroy an existing threat in another way, Nemesis Trap if they ever attack with it already on the field, or various ways of gaining control of once it's cast or after it's on the battlefield. None of them allow you to search like Bribery, though.
The advantage of Toxic Deluge as a wipe is that it gets around indestructible and with higher toughness on your creatures can be asymmetrical in some circumstances. But you could replace it with other wipes, such as Life's Finale which could replace part of Bribery if you're able to steal from their graveyard in some way.
The lack of Phyrexian Arena and Rhystic Study will hurt. There are some other options like Bloodgift Demon, Graveborn Muse, Twilight Prophet that can help with consistent, gradual card draw. I do recommend picking up a Phyrexian Arena when you can. Very good staple in black decks.
Pemmin's Aura, Freed from the Real, etc. work will with King Macar's tokens, but it's the same risk as with any aura, though I did use them to good effect when I ran such things. Sepulchral Primordial works best with recursion, but could be useful. Animate Dead is an okay substitute - you only lose the option of instant speed. Nothing quite like No Mercy, either, as it puts stuff in the graveyard for some of Phenax's troops to get bigger. Dissipation Field may be an option, but Arbiter might work, too. I've found that attack deterrents have a psychological component that may have varying effectiveness in different playgroups (e.g. Crawlspace might work in a meta where Arbiter gets shot down immediately or accidentally helps an Exalt deck). I don't think Visions of Beyond is a good substitute for Rhystic Study as you should probably prefer permanent-based card draw that's repeatable instead of one-shots. The other substitutes are okay. Mutilate might be a wipe to consider, too - also Aether Snap. Wipes can be meta-dependent calls, too.
Not just for blocking. Phenax can tap and mill for 7 with his own ability. The indestructibility still helps. If there's a lot of targeted exile removal in your meta than you may indeed want to control your devotion.
That's fine to remove if you want to since there are other things to shore up. I've removed gimmicks or even win conditions before after they were successful a couple times to make room for something new to try. I will warn you that Intruder Alarm tends to be an enabler for combos and will go off with Undead Alchemist. I have milled multiple folks out with Eater + Phenax in at least one game because one deck was creature heavy and I milled them a lot first to have fuel for milling the others.
On this I can definitely only comment from my perspective, and will have to change format a bit to use your list rather than quote it. Mostly, though, it may all come down to filling in some of the important stuff like card draw, removal, and protection, then see what slots are left for testing.
Mortivore/Wight of Precinct Six — I've used Mortivore and Nighthowler before. Might not want too much redundancy in this type of creature, though.
Guiltfeeder — I never ended up running this guy because if they have a black or artifact creature they can just chump block. I prefer effects like Mindcrank or Bloodchief Ascension that can affect other things I do instead of being one-time tricks. However those two cards are a combo, plus a well known one where if you see one players might expect the other and focus you.
Slagwurm Armor — Yeah, nothing wrong with that IMO. Had that and Freed from the Real on King Macar once and decimated a table.
Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real — The auras can be dependent on support cards sometimes, but Reversal is good. It can also work as single-turn pseudo vigilance or as "ritual" for extra mana. Also see Turnabout.
Hover Barrier/Wall of Frost — I didn't use walls much. Their main usefulness is if Phenax is on the battlefield and otherwise they're pretty weak, though a non-white Wall of Denial would be okay if there were such a thing. Meishin, the Mind Cage is interesting, though.
Fleet Swallower — Devastating if you can protect it. Eats removal. Could be worth testing.
Fraying Sanity — You don't really want to have cards that are dead in hand until a certain time late-game. There are other enchantments like Psychic Corrosion that are more useful throughout the game.
Mind Grind — Run it and see if it works for you. It can mill quite a bit to make it worth the one casting, especially if that's all you needed to get things moving for your other graveyard-dependent stuff like some creatures' power/toughness or methods of stealing from those graveyards. See if you can get Undead Alchemist out first, though.
Mnemonic Betrayal — That's like a reverse Yawgmoth's Will except for theft. Need to have mana for casting, of course, but it does also pose a risk to Mortivore-type stuff.
Bonehoard — I lump this in with Mortivore-type stuff since it's just as useful at the same times.
Fabricate — Restricted tutors are risky. It depends how important those artifacts are, when you could run Diabolic Tutor instead.
Infinite Reflection — This will not work the way you imagined with Sewer Nemesis. Any creature under your control already on the battlefield that became a copy of the original Sewer Nemesis would not copy its chosen player. With no chosen player their P/T would be 0/0 and they'd die. Any new creatures entering as a copy of Sewer Nemesis, however, would get their own choice of player as they enter. You'd also have to make sure that your devotion (including that supplied by Infinite Reflection would not tip Phenax into being a creature, too. Bit too risky for the deck unless you built around it a lot.
Forced Fruition — It is very powerful, but could also paint a huge target on you. This kind of thing seems to me more prevalent in a mono-blue mill deck that does the job mostly by draw and discard. Some cards from those kind of decks like Jace's Archivist might be useful, though.
It does help to have a plan B, and the control elements to slow other players down (or at least slow down their efforts to kill you).
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Thanks so much for taking the time to put together a detailed reply..a lot of what you said made a lot of sense.. I appreciate the other card suggestions as well... I will prob just save up and pick up some of the key cards im missing and fill in the other gaps..
Again I appreciate the time you took to respond and help out
9 swamps
10 Island
1 command tower
1 reflecting pool
1 meteor crater
1 evolving wilds
1 terramorphic expanse
1 bad river
1 polluted delta
1 watery grave
1 sunken ruins
1 drowned catacomb
1 temple of deceit
1 sunken hollow
1 tainted isle
1 choked estuary
1 dimir aqueduct
1 darkwater catacombs
1 halimar depths
1 mortuary mire
1 thespian’s stage
Mana Rocks(4)
1 Sol Ring
1 Springleaf Drum
2 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 commander's Sphere
2 Disciple of Deceit
2 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Fog Bank
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Geist of the Archives
3 Nighthowler
3 Siren of the Silent Song
3 Wall of Frost
4 Evil Twin
4 Fallowsage
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 King Macar, the Gold-Cursed
4 Knacksaw Clique
4 Tree of Perdition
4 Sewer Nemesis
4 Surgespanner
4 Undead Alchemist
4 silent arbiter
4 clone
5 Consuming Aberration
5 Eater of the Dead
5 archfiend of depravity
5 Sphinx disciple
6 Endbringer
6 Oona, Queen of the Fae
Planeswalkers(1)
5 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Rapid Hybridization
2 Counterspell
2 Curse of the Swine
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Go for the Throat
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Praetor's Grasp
4 Foul Renewal
5 aether snap
8 decree of pain
Mill help(3)
3 Thousand-Year Elixir
3 Intruder Alarm
5 Traumatize
Life gain(2)
1 Profane Momento
3 Crypt Incursion
Graveyard useage(3)
2 animate dead
4 Memory Plunder
7 Ghastly Conscription
Other (2)
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Propaganda
Unsure (6)
1 mind grind
1 fleet swallower
1 harvester of souls
1 pemmin's Aura
1 intellectual offering
1 dramatic reveal
So I've played a couple games over the weekend.. And I gotta say wow… the primer and some of the suggestions by other users were awesome.. My old mill deck where I just chucked every mill creature or spell into the deck was never able to gain the ground it needed to win.. But This deck is playable from lots of different angles and I won 1v3 and 1v1 all but once in the 5 times I played.
So above is my deck.. I'm pretty set on most cards but there is a section of unsure cards that I def need some help on.
Cards that did well
Here are some highlight of playing my build at the moment.
So altar of dementia is def the star of this deck.. It is so good. Def worth its price.
Glen Elendra Archmage OMG.. I am so glad I bought this card.. It was such a great play and I'm pretty sure I was lucky to draw it every game but once.. Def a star player.
Also silent arbiter and archfiend of depravity def helped me win some games as well for budget options.
Sphinx’s disciple was put in the deck for some draw and helped the one game I drew it. Even though its casting cost is a little high.
animate dead also did well.. I lost the game I used it in.. But he helped me stay relevant
Underwhelming card
springleaf drum was VERY underwhelming for me the time I got it.. Could've just been the game but didn't seem to need it.. Or if I could of used it I would of rather used the creature to tap and mill.. But it's such a low casting cost it's hard to remove.. Only card I thought about replacing it with was mind stone any suggestions or insight to this card?
Weakness of my build
My glaring weakness for this deck is def DRAW and the next weakness is RECURSION.. I def almost ran out of steam after a board wipe with not having any draw in the game.. And honestly if I had played in a 4 person match instead of a 3 person match I prob would of lost.. But luckily I was ahead enough to eeeekkk out the win.
Also when my nighthowler or sewer nemesis got sent to the graveyard it would of been nice to just get it right back. And with having no draw I was sore out of luck with my big guys gone.
So I def need to address those 2 parts of my deck… rhystic study is def on my need to get list.. As this is prob the best card to help me. Next up would be phyrexian arena. My only worry about phyrexian is it isn't a choice.. Has anyone ever died to this.. Or is that highly unlikely.?
Cards I'm considering
So again I'm on a budget so I can't just go grab the best card for the job at the moment.
Draw:
-what would be your go to if you had to have some budget draw
bloodgift demon
mind stone
monastery siege
kumena’s awakening
loyal drake
taigam, sidis's hand(this card really intrigues me.. It's both a scry(which helps with drawing the right stuff) and essentially a killl spell to indestructible or other pesky creatures. I feel like this is a really nice card.. Am I missing anything here?
Recursion
cauldron of souls(obviously need to have it out before my creature is gone)
havengul lich
boneyard parley
What about some cheap Common cards as well?
grim harvest
disturbed burial
undying evil
- semi recursion
dimir doppelganger and cemetery puca. Both might be good options.. Would either make the cut in your deck?
Unsure cards
1 mind grind
1 fleet swallower
1 harvester of souls
1 pemmin’s Aura
1 intellectual offering
1 dramatic reveal
These cards im not sold on and could drop them for anything new.
mind grind and pemmin’s aura are actually the only 2 out of this list I ever drew during my 5 games so can't really give the others a fair shake.
But mind grind got countered both times.. I feel this might happen a lot and if so I wasted all my mana that turn. pemmin’s aura I had in hand when I had no creatures on the board and no in hand so that card turned bad really fast.. I see why morphling is far superior.
So any advice to help me tune my budget build some more would be amazing..
I honestly wasn't expecting such an in-depth post. I'll gladly tackle all of it, of course. I'm going to aim for tomorrow; I'm just way too exhausted right now to give your posts the proper reply they deserve
Yeah, not the best option, that Disciple. The thing about Springleaf Drum is that it's not just a mana rock — it's an enabler for your creatures that need to tap (Inspired ones, Surgespanner, Knacksaw Clique) when Phenax isn't online. One of my main decks is suicide mono-black control and Phyrexian Arena has never been a threat to taking myself out of the game by life loss on top of all the other life I pay. Rhystic Study might annoy people, it might not, but it's a good card, too. Just need to know your playgroup, because you don't want to be Archenemy. Also don't forget that you can copy somebody else's draw with a clone or steal one with Praetor's Grasp.
This is hard to comment on because I don't know if your timing when using them was good or if you over-committed your board state.
Comments on Your Draw Options
Comments on Your Recursion Options
P.S. Also you might want to not use Word or whatever when drafting your posts, or at least find and disable the option that automatically changes a normal apostrophe (') to this (’). It was messing with a bunch of the card tags, because Pemmin's Aura works, but Pemmin’s Aura does not due to that character.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
@lyonhaert
The springleaf drum now makes alot of sense with the "inspired" cards.. I wish it was repeatable in the same turn but thats prob asking to much haha.. Ill def leave it in and see how it works out.. As I said above I only drew it once so I knew I wasn't giving it a fair shake.
Also good to hear about Phyrexian Arena.. This is a card I have to buy next time I have the money.. It's def not uber expensive but anything over $5 I only can buy every so often. Rhystic study is def on my list as well but cost is the same reason why I haven't picked it up yet. Also in my play group plp who have it out seem to get it removed or def draws attention to them.. So that is a downside to it but still think my deck needs the draw it can offer.
Your spot on with the over-commited comment about nighthowler and sewer nemesis I almost mentioned that when I posted but it slipped my mind.. But looking back at thst game.. I was already ahead but having open mana just sitting there for a turn or two made me be greedy and commit too much to the board.. I should of just held one back.. That is a missplay on my part.
Also thanks for breaking down each part of my post and going over each card.. Yeah mind stone was a bad suggestion.. I need repeatable not just 1 time.
mind grind is a card I'm still fine with but yeah I knew I was casting it into a player with open mana both times but I was just hoping they weren't holding a counterspell but I was wrong both times.. So my timing just needs to be better if I'm to use that card.
decree of pain is casting cost uber expensive and honestly I just cycle it a lot of the time as in my groups I play against alot of tokens so sometimes the -2-2 is perfect as well as a card draw.. But yeah Life's Finale is prob better here. Just thought decree of pain kinda covered 2 basis. Removal and card draw.. But if I think back to the games I don't think it ever gave me much value and its an AWFUL card to start with or draw early.
I use Google drive(google sheets) to type my responses into.. I'll def look into changing how that program adds (') to my tagged creatures.. I would of never know it wasn't working if you didn't point that out.. Thanks again for all your knowledge so far. (BTW I went back and fixed them all in my deck list I think at)
I hope this budget deck isn't out of place in this forum either and I appreciate you pointing out things I didn't see before that might have been obvious to most.. I'm still learning mtg everyday and there is a lot I miss sometimes.
Cheers
So there's another term to introduce - "cantrip". A cantrip is a card that replaces itself once used, and cycling Decree of Pain does that (normal cast has the potential to be draw). Even Phyrexian Arena could be thought of as a cantrip on the first card it gets you, and then thought of as draw if it gets you more cards after that.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you may have to tweak your control elements to suit your playgroup. It's possible you find you need Decree and Finale.
Not out of place at all. Some primers even have alternate lists for competitive builds and budget builds.
NB: And don't forget - everybody who now understands concepts of building, timing, card advantage, etc. at one point did not understand them.
I'm just going to throw out some inexpensive options for draw that can be considered, though some of them are going to be more of a casual level. A thing to keep in mind is that Phenax lists tend not to have but a small handful of draw sources and a small handful of tutors. You might consider adding an additional tutor like Diabolic Tutor or Beseech the Queen.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Phyrexian Metamorph can be replaced by any decent clone. Clever Impersonator and Dimir Doppelganger, for example, would both do well in this deck.
Sheoldred, Whispering One doesn't have a strong alternative, though you could maybe run Sepulchural Primordial in its place. That being said, it's not super on-flavor. It's more of a goodstuffs card. I'm actually going to be testing The Scarab God in its place.
Lyonheart did a good job of covering cheaper more casual draw engines in place of Phyrexian Arena so I won't bore you with a repeat. But a couple other options are Erebos, God of the Dead and Underworld Connections.
For Toxic Deluge I would be inclined to run Black Sun's Zenith. Sure, it can cost a lot of mana. But it's re-useable and let's you be selective. Like Deluge, this can let you save you high-toughness creatures.
Bribery is also one without a good analog. It's powerful for sure, and I'd definitely try running it if you have one. But it's not super on-flavor. It's partly a remnant of when this was a Lazav deck.
Pemmin's Aura, Sepulchral Primordial, and Animate Dead are all perfectly fine budget options.
silent arbiter Can certainly get the job done. As you note, part of the reason I skipped it is devotion. It's nice not only have an indestructible blocker in Phenax, but also the extra little bit of mill is nice. The other reason though is I want to avoid drawing any hate. That's why I personally have stayed away from cards that affect everyone, rather than just putting up a pillow in front of me.
No Mercy is tough to replace, as there's not much like it out there. Ideally, I would go for another pillowfort enchantment, so it's just as hard to remove. Collective Restraint is an option. In this deck, it's a strictly worse Propaganda, but it'd do the trick. Or if it's working for you, you can stick with the Arbiter.
Rhystic Study and other draw cards have been talked about plenty in the responses already, so not much to add here.
I like dimir doppelganger a lot, and I like it as a budget option in this deck, too. If you're looking to use it specifically to steal an opponent's creature, that's great. If you want to recur your own, I'd probably just go for a cheap spell that doesn't exile
This combo has been done in popular EDH decks, like the now retired Wrexial primer. I'm just not a huge fan of it. It's a little too setup dependency in my opinion. But if it's worked for you, I wont' knock it.
Mortivore, Wight of Precinct Six, and Bonehoard are all great in the deck. But for only growing off of creatures, there's just too many cards competing for their spot.
Guiltfeeder was in the deck for a long time. Ultimately, I kind of moved away from attack-based cards. There's nothing inherently wrong with them. And if you like them, more power to you. But I felt like there wasn't enough support in this deck for most attackers.
slagwurm armor is just outpaced by too many things. As an equipment, it's a little on the slower side, and doesn't do anything by itself. And while the +0/+6 does buff mill and is super on-theme, it just doesn't do enough I feel.
I would love to run Dramatic Reversal and Freed from the Real. Honestly, I just have no idea where to put them. They're strong with this deck and super on flavor. But they need to outperform another card in the deck to get a slot. You could maybe go with a control slot if you're less worried about that.
This deck used to run Hover Barrier before I discovered Drift of Phantasms. With all the strong cards available to us, there's only so much room for walls in here. And I like the utility (and gimmick) of Transmute more than I dislike the one lost toughness. And then Wall of Frost feels like a better deterrent. Sure, it lacks flying. But it can survive slightly bigger hits, and enemies want to run into it a hell of a lot less.
I do think Fleet Swallower is worth testing for sure. I'm just worried about it being combat-oriented. The deck doesn't really have any way to give it evasion or support it. I'd love to hear about it if you try it. Otherwise, I'd have to figure out what slot it could even work in.
Fraying Sanity is another one that's interesting, but needs to be tested. I'm torn on it just looking at it. It can only hit one player, and doesn't do anything by itself. But a mill double is nothing to laugh at.
The issue with Mind Grind is that it doesn't hit any single player hard enough. You're milling roughly 2.5 cards per X per player on average. At a big table, spending like 6 mana for x=4 will mill you for 10 cards a player on average, which could be a ton in total. But the way it's spread out means there's no real amount of mana to spend on it that feels satisfying.
Mnemonic Betrayal is honestly just too new for me to have tested yet. I want to love it so bad. It's not an auto-include though, as I'm just not sure if we'll be able to get enough value out of it if we've already spent three mana this turn just to cast it. With more mana generation, it would definitely be a blowout. As it is, we'll see.
With the number of artifacts in this deck, I feel like the scope of Fabricate is just too limited. If you're on a budget, it has a few worthwhile targets for sure. But there are much more powerful and/or more fun and gimmicky (looking at you transmute) out there. If you're looking for another niche tutor, I'd be more tempted by Shred Memory for this deck.
Infinite Reflections is probably more win-more than anything in this deck. I wouldn't want to use it on a utility card like King Macar, the Gold-Cursed so it would go on a win-con. So that already makes it pretty conditional. And then it's only providing value on a win-con that can't get me home by itself.
I largely agree with Lyonheart on Forced Fruition. It may not draw you crazy amounts of hate, because everyone loves draw. But I'd be more inclined to run something like Jace's Archivist instead.
Thanks man! It definitely does sacrifice some potential mill in areas like control. But I'm pretty happy with the balance. Where you play it might be different though, so I can't say running more mill is necessarily a bad thing.
The Scarab God seems like a nice addition.. Might have to give that card a try
You def reccomended some great cards and explained why some just don't work the way we need them to.
I'll tinker with my build slightly and re test it over the next few weeks and check back in and let you know how it's going.. Also going to give a look over "war of spark" when it's completely spoiled and see if there are any cards that could be put in this deck.
Thanks for taking the time to put the primer together as well as checking back in on it.
I'd argue the card to remove is Traumatize
the swallow is an attack trigger so maze of ith protects it
old thread
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko