How does Past in Flames not synergize with X-Spells? You still get to set the value of X. I have won plenty of games with a flashbacked Comet Storm
You would normally dump all your mana into an X-Spell so if I cast Past in Flames and cast an X-spell out of my graveyard I would only get one spell out of it. You are better off running a Regrowth effect instead.
I run both and don't have an issue. Being able to flash back multiple spells, plus you can conspire them still. Most of the time I am wishing Recoup was just PiF. Maybe your playgroup is different than mine. I have no issue being 3-4 turns ahead of everyone. Also your list seems to be a token/x-spell hybrid(more tokens tbh) than my list. I am not saying your wrong for not running it. It just rocks my socks in my list.
Check out my list if you haven't already. Keep on spell slingin'
Chaos Warp can hit any kind of permanent and that added flexibility makes it well worth it despite not being able to tuck commanders anymore. I've also used it offensively, setting up the top of my library with Sensei's Divining Top, then using Chaos Warp on one of my own tokens to cheat out an expensive permanent like Vicious Shadows or Avenger of Zendikar at Instant speed.
You cannot use Chaos Warp in such a way since you must shuffle before you put the permanent into play and you can't respond to a spell in mid-resolution either so you can't rearrange after the shuffle but before you plop a permanent into play. I do like that Chaos Warp deals with indestructible permanents but I'm really leaning on cutting it from the list without the tuck ability.
I still like Chaos Warp. It is still able to handle problematic cards. There aren't many things in R/G that we can use outside if artifact/enchantment. What do you want to run in its place?
I still like Chaos Warp. It is still able to handle problematic cards. There aren't many things in R/G that we can use outside if artifact/enchantment. What do you want to run in its place?
im still working out the kinks in the deck but maybe Rain of Thorns? Possibly Fresh Meat. Currently im running a suboptimal list with cards I have but im working on a decklist online. I also have a bad habit of randomly getting attached to cards I probably shouldn't be running, for example I'm running predatory advantage and I know it's gonna be hard for me to cut because I love the card.
2) Chaos Warp can hit any kind of permanent and that added flexibility makes it well worth it despite not being able to tuck commanders anymore. I've also used it offensively, setting up the top of my library with Sensei's Divining Top, then using Chaos Warp on one of my own tokens to cheat out an expensive permanent like Vicious Shadows or Avenger of Zendikar at Instant speed.
Chaos Warp does not work like that. Even if you target your own token you still have to shuffle before you reveal the top card because nobody gets priority in the middle of the resolution of a spell. That's why it's chaos, you can't abuse it.
Just realized this was already answered, sorry. Good discussion though!
EDH Decks: R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R G Omnath, Locus of Mana G U Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir U B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B W Avacyn, Angel of Hope W RW Aurelia, the Warleader WR RB Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR RU Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind UR RG Wort, the Raidmother GR GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf BG GU Vorel of the Hull Clade UG GW Captain Sisay (under construction) WG BU Wrexial, the Risen Deep UB BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Brago, King Eternal UW GRW Uril, the Miststalker WRG WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GUW UWB Sen Triplets BWU RBU Marchesa, the Black Rose (under construction) UBR BGR Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund (under construction) RGB UBG The Mimeoplasm GBU WGB Karador, Ghost Chieftain (under construction) BGW GUR Intet, the Dreamer RUG BRW Alesha, Who Smiles at Death (under construction) WRB UWR Narset, Enlightened Master RWU WWUUBBRRGG Progenitus WWUUBBRRGG 10 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth 10
I love your decklist. What are your thoughts on inclusions since the most recent post? Since then, we've had the BFZ, SOI, and KLD blocks drop (as well as CN2), with lots of potential inclusions: (and other considerations)
Mirrorpool: An extra spell copy effect, if it's really necessary... Seems much worse than available options.
Zendikar Resurgent: Kinda like Caged Sun, but always gives the extra mana and comes with some extra card draw
Fall of the Titans: A conditional double-fireball. Again, probably worse than available options.
Game Trail: Not a free dual land, but a potential budget option
Cryptolith Rite: Much in the same category as Citanul Hierophants, but comes down on turn 2, doesn't die to creature removal or wraths, and gives either color of mana. Not quite a second Earthcraft, but this card does seem nuts.
Seasons Past: Regrowth on steroids. I think the deck's curve is pretty diverse as-is, so it wouldn't need any retooling to be taken advantage of optimally.
Second Harvest: Good in more token-focused decks. Probably high-variance, since the floor is 0 tokens.
Eldritch Evolution: Probably not at its best in this deck, but worth mentioning since it's another sac-as-a-cost card
Bedlam Reveler: In a more "stormy" list, this might be of use
Collective Defiance: Not great, but hey, modes! Getting in under the Teeg also gives this some relevance
Hanweir Garrison: Probably not worth including, but making two tokens per attack starting turn 4 or earlier seemed worth mentioning
Hanweir Battlements: Mostly worth including to go with the Garrison. Probably not at its best in this deck though
Panharmonicon: Depending on configuration, this could have enough relevant cards to be nuts
Harnessed Lightning: Becomes 6 damage to a creature for 2 mana when doubled; likely not good enough
Aetherflux Resovoir: This deck seems like it has the real potential to storm off enough for this to be super-powerful. Greatly depends on configuration and focus of the build, of course
Wildest Dreams: double-X-spell regrowth. Potential seems very high with this card
Indomitable Creativity: Not sure what to think about this one... I don't think it's good here.
Heroic Intervention: Probably not worth the slot in this deck, but maybe good in a protect-the-Queen kind of build
Lifecrafter's Bestiary: Worth mentioning because it's a strong card in general, but this deck isn't often creature-dense enough for this to be worth playing imo
Release the Gremlins: In a similar spot as Artifact Mutation. Creates fewer tokens, but can destroy multiple artifacts / be copied for mass artifact removal.
Regal Behemoth: The monarchy is nice, but a mana doubler on a creature feels fragile here
Of that list, the bolded cards are the ones I see with good potential in your style of list, though I can imagine a place for the rest in some other configurations. Thoughts?
Also, I'm curious to see what your list looks like at the moment. Largely unchanged in the past couple of years, or has it been updated with the sets since then?
I haven't kept up this thread in a while, so I'll go through the sets since Born of the Gods and the cards that were considered for the deck:
Conspiracy Predator's Howl - Replaced Beacon of Creation for quite a while. Morbid ends up being pretty easy to come by and I never had enough Forests to get max value out of Beacon.
Journey Into Nyx Hydra Broodmaster - You need a lot of mana to actually get the tokens, but its a great mana dump that has a lot of synergy with what the deck wants to do. I tried this out over Dragon Broodmother for a while. Revel of the Fallen God - I pulled Rude Awakening from the deck soon after I put it in and I tried this in its slot for a while. I like the tokens it produces being both red and green and the fact that it generates 4 tokens (you like pairs of tokens for Wort).
M15 Stoke the Flames - This is surprisingly good in the deck. Convoke is good here, not to mention that 4 damage seems to be a sweet spot when dealing with a lot of commanders. I actually took out Blasting Station to put this in. Chandra, Pyromancer - This came in for a while, but I ended up with it in Gisela. Hornet Queen - This wasn't bad, but overall it wasn't much better than anything else I was running. Plus I was already running it in Rhys, so I pulled it from here. Nissa's Expedition - I tried this in place of Skyshroud Claim for a while, but I reverted back. It's not a bad spell if you don't have Skyshroud Claim.
Khans of Tarkir Goblinslide - This card is fantastic. I had to pull Yavimaya Elder to fit it into the deck, but it was worth it. Hordeling Outburst - This card is also fantastic. I like having cheap token makers in the deck to get the deck started, and this fit right in to replace Scatter the Seeds.
C14 Sylvan Offering - A very good token-making X-spell that replaced the often-clunky Gelatinous Genesis. Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Creates tokens, can remove troublesome artifacts and enchantments, and has some card advantage that the deck sorely needs built into the ultimate, this card found a home for a while. I pulled SDT to swap cards in and out, and this ended up taking its place for good. Incite Rebellion - This made it into the deck for exactly one game where I had a chance to reread it and realized that it didn't do what I thought it did... #embarrassing #RTFC
Fate Reforged Outpost Siege - The flexibility and mana cost savings over Vicious Shadows was awesome, and it also helped address the card advantage problem. Shamanic Revelation - I tried it because I wanted to see what the 1 mana difference between this and Collective Unconscious would mean. I didn't like it. In general, I tend to shy away from cards that are only useful when you are ahead. It is a fine option, but not something I wanted to keep in the deck long term.
Dragons of Tarkir Atarka's Command - I thought that a Command card would be great, but the modes on this just aren't as applicable as they are in Standard. Commune With Lava - Seems like it should be great, but it was just okay for me. Definitely an option to consider, but I ended up dropping it. Descent of the Dragons - This was surprisingly interesting and fun for both getting rid of problematic creatures and upgrading my tokens. You can technically Conspire it but it doesn't do anything, and overall it got cut because giving the opponent 4/4 Flyers ended up not being very good. Impact Tremors - This little innocuous card deals a ton of damage. It's half of a Purphorous, God of the Forge for half the cost and it took over for Warstorm Surge in a deck that makes lots of 1/1's. Volcanic Vision - An interesting card very similar to Vengeful Rebirth. It's just a tad too expensive.
Origins Abbot of Keral Keep - I have notes that I added this card, but I have no recollection as to what I pulled to put it in or how it performed. There are lots of cards similar to this that could possibly see play; a CMC of 2 plus Prowess at least piqued my interest. Hangarback Walker - Obviously good when you have Doubling Season out, but in the end I put it into Ghave. Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist - The flipped side is exactly what this deck wants, but getting it to survive that long was a problem. The Great Aurora - I have hemmed and hawed about putting this in. I don't have a copy yet and haven't felt compelled enough to go get one. It seems like it should be really good as a reset button, but I'm really unsure on this one.
Battle for Zendikar Cinder Glade - Almost as good as a normal dual land in a straight RG deck. Brood Monitor, Call the Scions, etc. - Colorless tokens are not your friend, plus the token makers in this set are all worse than what you have already.
C15 Arachnogenesis - This was fun while it lasted and it definitely made attacking me when I had 3 mana open an iffy proposition, but in the end it was more okay than amazing. Blade of Selves - Amazing when it worked given how several creatures I play bring along a lot of friends, but overall it seemed to do nothing more than I liked. Ezuri's Predation - Amazing effect, but just way too expensive. Mizzix's Mastery - Amazing late-game card, but too many things have to be going right to make it work the way you want.
I'll do the rest of the sets and post my updated list tomorrow...
EDIT: Oath of the Gatewatch Fall of the Titans - This is often much better than Banefire except versus countermagic. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - Generating 0/1 Plants until you can ultimate has its uses, but the -2 ability can be deadly when you've got a slew of tokens on board. I eventually traded it away, but I can see where this might be useful. Sea Gate Wreckage - Considering how this deck can often empty its hand quickly, this card ended up in the deck. Your mana is good enough to support it as the deck was running 5 colorless sources of mana already with no problem.
Shadows Over Innistrad Cryptolith Rite - A wannabe Earthcraft, but good nonetheless. I took out Phyrexian Altar to fit this in, moving towards de-emphasizing the sacrifice theme. Game Trail - Another dual land that I now play over Karplusan Forest. Second Harvest - Another cards that was cheaper than the original (in this case Parallel Evolution), but again I shy away from cards that are only good once ahead. Still, I can totally see someone running it and being very happy. Tireless Tracker - I never pulled the trigger on actually getting one, but it seemed interesting enough to want to at least try out to see if the card advantage could be worth it.
Conspiracy: Take the Crown Grenzo, Havoc Raiser - The thought was that I could get in some damage with a bunch of tokens then have some goodies from an opponents deck to cast. Doesn't really pan out that way in practice. Selvala's Stampede - An excellent card to copy, but wholly dependent on the number of players in the game to be good. Also, we don't run many permanents or creatures, so both choices are a little restrictive. Spitting Slime - I think if this cost a tad less to become monstrous we might have a winner. The effect is great, but you need lots of mana (and not just colorless mana) to keep the engine running. Subterranean Tremors - Seems like fun, but really not what this deck wants.
Kaladesh Chandra, Torch of Defiance - All 4 modes are relevant. I finally pulled Primal Vigor to put this one in (the symmetrical effect came up way too often). Wildest Dreams - Being able to regrow multiple things makes me happy, but I'm still not convinced that the deck wants/needs Regrowth effects.
C16 Divergent Transformations - Another way to upgrade your tokens but still exile a creature or two from your opponents if they are being unruly. The fact that this exiles makes it well worth it, its an Instant, and the CMC of 7 is misleading as it will likely cost 4 or 5 a lot of the time. I ended up putting this in over Chaos Warp of all things; the deck has several ways of dealing with non-creature permanents so it didn't need the flexibility. Tana, the Bloodsower - Was just too slow. Treacherous Terrain - I threatened to put this into my deck a few times to punish all the Rampy McRampersons that were running loose, but its not any better than a normal X-Spell (not to mention a little bit hypocritical given this deck's mana production capabilities).
Aether Revolt Release the Gremlins - I would probably run this over other mass-artifact removal, but the deck has that covered. Note that unlike Descent of Dragons, you can conspire this and target all the same artifacts for the copy and still get tokens from both spells. Rishkar's Expertise - I'm still wondering whether I should try this. I have generally dismissed card draw that is based on the highest creature power (i.e. Garruk, Primal Hunter) or power of a sacrificed creature (i.e. Life's Legacy, Momentous Fall) because the deck is full of 1/1's a lot of the time, but I'm at least considering this one.
Thank you for the extensive rundown! Do you have an updated list somewhere?
I've updated the original post to include my most up-to-date list.
EDIT:
So after playing the deck a few times, I realized that I made a few mistakes. By de-emphasizing the sacrifice theme, I made a couple cards into duds when they are normally all-stars; specifically Fresh Meat, Fecundity, and Outpost Siege. I decided that removing Phyrexian Altar was definitely a mistake as it is a mana-engine crucial to how the deck functions, but I also wanted to port in some technology that I've been using in other decks in the form of Spawning Pit; the card is ridiculous with Doubling Season, and even Parallel Lives or Mana Echoes can be serious business.
Needless to say, I love this deck. This is more of what Wort should be played like. It's more even then most of the other Wort decks out there. I've taken mine in quite a different direction then yours though and wouldn't mind if you checked it out and gave me your thoughts (link in the sig). Just goes to show everyone that Wort is a better of a commander then anyone gives her credit for. Let's get her noticed more! I'm tired of walking to a random store, pulling her out and have the table snicker... Though I love seeing the looks on their faces when I pull a win out of it.
Needless to say, I love this deck. This is more of what Wort should be played like. It's more even then most of the other Wort decks out there. I've taken mine in quite a different direction then yours though and wouldn't mind if you checked it out and gave me your thoughts (link in the sig). Just goes to show everyone that Wort is a better of a commander then anyone gives her credit for. Let's get her noticed more! I'm tired of walking to a random store, pulling her out and have the table snicker... Though I love seeing the looks on their faces when I pull a win out of it.
Thanks! This is one of those decks that I consider semi-casual; it can do some really disgustingly good things without just saying "I win".
And I've never had anyone snicker when I pull out Wort. Most people understand that copying spells can get ridiculous if given the right support, so in my experience people are somewhat wary of her from the getgo. I think that her 6 CMC makes a lot of people less worried about dying before they get some setup going, but this deck is the perfect example of a "late combo" deck.
I'll check out your list a little later. Wort is one of those commanders that can be built in many different ways, and it is good to see how other people are trying to use/abuse her.
Needless to say, I love this deck. This is more of what Wort should be played like. It's more even then most of the other Wort decks out there. I've taken mine in quite a different direction then yours though and wouldn't mind if you checked it out and gave me your thoughts (link in the sig). Just goes to show everyone that Wort is a better of a commander then anyone gives her credit for. Let's get her noticed more! I'm tired of walking to a random store, pulling her out and have the table snicker... Though I love seeing the looks on their faces when I pull a win out of it.
Thanks! This is one of those decks that I consider semi-casual; it can do some really disgustingly good things without just saying "I win".
And I've never had anyone snicker when I pull out Wort. Most people understand that copying spells can get ridiculous if given the right support, so in my experience people are somewhat wary of her from the getgo. I think that her 6 CMC makes a lot of people less worried about dying before they get some setup going, but this deck is the perfect example of a "late combo" deck.
I'll check out your list a little later. Wort is one of those commanders that can be built in many different ways, and it is good to see how other people are trying to use/abuse her.
I don't know... I have the bad habit of walking her up to groups that are running $1,200+ decks each... So that MIGHT be the reason I get that response... And I DO play it up a bit (landbase is fun but works). lol
"Early game drop" doesn't really apply in this format...unless you're doing 1v1. Even then, probably not.
But even then, it isn't really worth the drawback. You really want token-making cards the produce multiple tokens versus one big token.
Hour of Devastation has been relatively disappointing as far as Wort is concerned. Uncage the Menagerie seems somewhat interesting for a deck like this (specifically at X=5), but I don't really run enough creatures and I would never want to Conspire it.
I will probably wait till after C17 to make any changes to this deck unless the Hours of Devastation spoilers start showing me something different.
Recently built a Wort deck and it is so much fun! My list is a bit different due to unavailability of some of the cards. I was wondering though why none of the lists play Krenko, Mob Boss. We have plenty of spells that produce Goblins (Heck, whenever we play Wort we get three!) and he synergies so well with a lot of the other cards in the deck (Mana Echo, Paradox Engine, Purphoros, Siege Gang etc)
Again thanks for the list and all the hard work from everyone here!
Ahem... My deck (in sig) runs a Krenko package... Just saying if you want to take a look see... (shameless plug over)
Granted, I can't speak for everyone, but I think that there are a few main reasons why most lists aren't running Krenko.
- Running Mr K. does take a fairly large package if you really want to abuse him. Most folk don't want to devote the slots to someone that isn't the commander out of fear of him getting exiled and the rest of the package being dead cards.
- They'd rather be casting spells rather then trying to find ways to keep on untapping Mr K. over and over. If they wanted to be untapping him, they'd be running him as the commander instead.
- You usually only need 2-4 creatures a round for conspiring stuff. Cause you will usually only be casting 1-2 spells a turn.
- I had another point, but I lost my train of thought. sorry
I haven't done an update on this deck in a while. Some of the cards that I've considered for the deck over the past few sets:
Amonkhet Harvest Season - I loved the idea of this card, but it really doesn't fit in the deck in it's current configuration. Mouth//Feed - I just don't generate enough big tokens to make this worthwhile. Throne of the God Pharaoh - This is one that I meant to try out, but I don't ever recall actually playing it. I may have to circle back and test it out.
Hour of Devastation Firebrand Archer - I like this card in general, but I don't cast enough spells per turn to generate enough damage. Hazoret's Undying Fury - The "converted man cost 5 or less" really hurts this card, not to mention that I have a bunch of X-spells that do nothing. Hour of Promise - I really, really like the idea of running this as it generates mana and tokens, but it only does so if I run some Deserts. I decided against overhauling the deck to include Deserts just to enable one card. Neheb, the Eternal - I really like this card, but I put it into a bunch of decks and decided to not include it here.
Commander 2017 Traverse the Outlands - Again, I don't run enough big creatures to make this good enough.
Ixalan Growing Rites of Itmiloc - I love the Gaea's Cradle flipside, but Rites is a bit trickier to justify as I will generally whiff in a deck with 11 creatures. This is a card I am playing in several places elsewhere, so I pulled it from here. Primal Amulet - I really like both sides of this card for this deck.
Rivals of Ixalan Path of Discovery - I'm really looking forward to trying this out here as it triggers for each creature that enters the battlefield. Pirate's Pillage - This is well worth conspiring. Tilonalli's Summoner - I should have little problem getting the City's Blessing and once I do this card should be a wrecking ball.
So for right now, I'm +1 Primal Amulet, +1 Path of Discovery, +1 Pirate's Pillage, and +1 Tilonalli's Summoner. To fit them in, I had to make some tough cuts:
-1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance - This was intended to be a card drawing engine of sorts for the deck with a little mana boost if needed. It's a great card that I play in other decks, so I pulled it from here.
-1 Mirari - This is a favorite card of mine that just doesn't seem to do enough anymore.
-1 Sakura-Tribe Elder - Blasphemy, but I've kept the low-end part of the deck cheap enough where I don't need a 2 mana accelerator that I can't conspire.
-1 Brimstone Volley - I decided to pull one of the small burn spells. I hate pulling removal, but in this context it made sense.
Unlike with a few of my other decks, I felt that there was some really interesting stuff that could potentially go into Wort from Dominaria. Some of the cards I am considering:
Fight With Fire: The deck originally had a few mid-range burn spells that were big enough to be worth Conspiring, but cheap enough to cast to be useful as removal in the early game. Fight With Fire fills that need so much better than any other option before that I am sure that this will stay in the deck long term.
Grand Warlord Radha: There is the potential for this to be able to turn a large token army in mana without actually sacrificing all of them as I would via Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar. I don't have any way to use it in my Jund, Temur, or Naya decks, so if its going to have a spot it will be here. I think the payoff is worth it enough to give it a try.
Helm of the Host: Given that this deck runs most of the token doublers, runs several creatures with ETB effects, and has a Commander worth copying (all instances of Conspire "stack" so to speak, so with two Worts and two other creatures to tap I can copy a spell twice), I can see Helm being a very dangerous card in this deck.
Jaya Ballard: I like all the modes on this, and even though it can't be Conspired I like how this can fill a niche in the deck (especially now that Chandra, Torch of Defiance is no longer in the deck).
Saprling Migration: This is a perfect card for this deck; it's a green Dragon Fodder for the early game and it's got a reasonable Kicker cost to make this well worth Conspiring in the mid to late game.
Spore Swarm: Getting three tokens for 4 mana is a good enough deal to consider.
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
You would normally dump all your mana into an X-Spell so if I cast Past in Flames and cast an X-spell out of my graveyard I would only get one spell out of it. You are better off running a Regrowth effect instead.
Check out my list if you haven't already. Keep on spell slingin'
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
You cannot use Chaos Warp in such a way since you must shuffle before you put the permanent into play and you can't respond to a spell in mid-resolution either so you can't rearrange after the shuffle but before you plop a permanent into play. I do like that Chaos Warp deals with indestructible permanents but I'm really leaning on cutting it from the list without the tuck ability.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
im still working out the kinks in the deck but maybe Rain of Thorns? Possibly Fresh Meat. Currently im running a suboptimal list with cards I have but im working on a decklist online. I also have a bad habit of randomly getting attached to cards I probably shouldn't be running, for example I'm running predatory advantage and I know it's gonna be hard for me to cut because I love the card.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
Chaos Warp does not work like that. Even if you target your own token you still have to shuffle before you reveal the top card because nobody gets priority in the middle of the resolution of a spell. That's why it's chaos, you can't abuse it.
Just realized this was already answered, sorry. Good discussion though!
R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
U Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir U
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope W
RW Aurelia, the Warleader WR
RB Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
RU Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind UR
RG Wort, the Raidmother GR
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf BG
GU Vorel of the Hull Clade UG
GW Captain Sisay (under construction) WG
BU Wrexial, the Risen Deep UB
BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Brago, King Eternal UW
GRW Uril, the Miststalker WRG
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GUW
UWB Sen Triplets BWU
RBU Marchesa, the Black Rose (under construction) UBR
BGR Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund (under construction) RGB
UBG The Mimeoplasm GBU
WGB Karador, Ghost Chieftain (under construction) BGW
GUR Intet, the Dreamer RUG
BRW Alesha, Who Smiles at Death (under construction) WRB
UWR Narset, Enlightened Master RWU
WWUUBBRRGG Progenitus WWUUBBRRGG
10 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth 10
Of that list, the bolded cards are the ones I see with good potential in your style of list, though I can imagine a place for the rest in some other configurations. Thoughts?
Also, I'm curious to see what your list looks like at the moment. Largely unchanged in the past couple of years, or has it been updated with the sets since then?
Conspiracy
Predator's Howl - Replaced Beacon of Creation for quite a while. Morbid ends up being pretty easy to come by and I never had enough Forests to get max value out of Beacon.
Journey Into Nyx
Hydra Broodmaster - You need a lot of mana to actually get the tokens, but its a great mana dump that has a lot of synergy with what the deck wants to do. I tried this out over Dragon Broodmother for a while.
Revel of the Fallen God - I pulled Rude Awakening from the deck soon after I put it in and I tried this in its slot for a while. I like the tokens it produces being both red and green and the fact that it generates 4 tokens (you like pairs of tokens for Wort).
M15
Stoke the Flames - This is surprisingly good in the deck. Convoke is good here, not to mention that 4 damage seems to be a sweet spot when dealing with a lot of commanders. I actually took out Blasting Station to put this in.
Chandra, Pyromancer - This came in for a while, but I ended up with it in Gisela.
Hornet Queen - This wasn't bad, but overall it wasn't much better than anything else I was running. Plus I was already running it in Rhys, so I pulled it from here.
Nissa's Expedition - I tried this in place of Skyshroud Claim for a while, but I reverted back. It's not a bad spell if you don't have Skyshroud Claim.
Khans of Tarkir
Goblinslide - This card is fantastic. I had to pull Yavimaya Elder to fit it into the deck, but it was worth it.
Hordeling Outburst - This card is also fantastic. I like having cheap token makers in the deck to get the deck started, and this fit right in to replace Scatter the Seeds.
C14
Sylvan Offering - A very good token-making X-spell that replaced the often-clunky Gelatinous Genesis.
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Creates tokens, can remove troublesome artifacts and enchantments, and has some card advantage that the deck sorely needs built into the ultimate, this card found a home for a while. I pulled SDT to swap cards in and out, and this ended up taking its place for good.
Incite Rebellion - This made it into the deck for exactly one game where I had a chance to reread it and realized that it didn't do what I thought it did... #embarrassing #RTFC
Fate Reforged
Outpost Siege - The flexibility and mana cost savings over Vicious Shadows was awesome, and it also helped address the card advantage problem.
Shamanic Revelation - I tried it because I wanted to see what the 1 mana difference between this and Collective Unconscious would mean. I didn't like it. In general, I tend to shy away from cards that are only useful when you are ahead. It is a fine option, but not something I wanted to keep in the deck long term.
Dragons of Tarkir
Atarka's Command - I thought that a Command card would be great, but the modes on this just aren't as applicable as they are in Standard.
Commune With Lava - Seems like it should be great, but it was just okay for me. Definitely an option to consider, but I ended up dropping it.
Descent of the Dragons - This was surprisingly interesting and fun for both getting rid of problematic creatures and upgrading my tokens. You can technically Conspire it but it doesn't do anything, and overall it got cut because giving the opponent 4/4 Flyers ended up not being very good.
Impact Tremors - This little innocuous card deals a ton of damage. It's half of a Purphorous, God of the Forge for half the cost and it took over for Warstorm Surge in a deck that makes lots of 1/1's.
Volcanic Vision - An interesting card very similar to Vengeful Rebirth. It's just a tad too expensive.
Origins
Abbot of Keral Keep - I have notes that I added this card, but I have no recollection as to what I pulled to put it in or how it performed. There are lots of cards similar to this that could possibly see play; a CMC of 2 plus Prowess at least piqued my interest.
Hangarback Walker - Obviously good when you have Doubling Season out, but in the end I put it into Ghave.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist - The flipped side is exactly what this deck wants, but getting it to survive that long was a problem.
The Great Aurora - I have hemmed and hawed about putting this in. I don't have a copy yet and haven't felt compelled enough to go get one. It seems like it should be really good as a reset button, but I'm really unsure on this one.
Battle for Zendikar
Cinder Glade - Almost as good as a normal dual land in a straight RG deck.
Brood Monitor, Call the Scions, etc. - Colorless tokens are not your friend, plus the token makers in this set are all worse than what you have already.
C15
Arachnogenesis - This was fun while it lasted and it definitely made attacking me when I had 3 mana open an iffy proposition, but in the end it was more okay than amazing.
Blade of Selves - Amazing when it worked given how several creatures I play bring along a lot of friends, but overall it seemed to do nothing more than I liked.
Ezuri's Predation - Amazing effect, but just way too expensive.
Mizzix's Mastery - Amazing late-game card, but too many things have to be going right to make it work the way you want.
I'll do the rest of the sets and post my updated list tomorrow...
EDIT:
Oath of the Gatewatch
Fall of the Titans - This is often much better than Banefire except versus countermagic.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - Generating 0/1 Plants until you can ultimate has its uses, but the -2 ability can be deadly when you've got a slew of tokens on board. I eventually traded it away, but I can see where this might be useful.
Sea Gate Wreckage - Considering how this deck can often empty its hand quickly, this card ended up in the deck. Your mana is good enough to support it as the deck was running 5 colorless sources of mana already with no problem.
Shadows Over Innistrad
Cryptolith Rite - A wannabe Earthcraft, but good nonetheless. I took out Phyrexian Altar to fit this in, moving towards de-emphasizing the sacrifice theme.
Game Trail - Another dual land that I now play over Karplusan Forest.
Second Harvest - Another cards that was cheaper than the original (in this case Parallel Evolution), but again I shy away from cards that are only good once ahead. Still, I can totally see someone running it and being very happy.
Tireless Tracker - I never pulled the trigger on actually getting one, but it seemed interesting enough to want to at least try out to see if the card advantage could be worth it.
Eldritch Moon
Nothing - Stuff like Nahiri's Wrath, Shreds of Sanity, Collective Defiance, and Emrakul's Evangel give me pause, but ultimately I decided that nothing was worth including.
Conspiracy: Take the Crown
Grenzo, Havoc Raiser - The thought was that I could get in some damage with a bunch of tokens then have some goodies from an opponents deck to cast. Doesn't really pan out that way in practice.
Selvala's Stampede - An excellent card to copy, but wholly dependent on the number of players in the game to be good. Also, we don't run many permanents or creatures, so both choices are a little restrictive.
Spitting Slime - I think if this cost a tad less to become monstrous we might have a winner. The effect is great, but you need lots of mana (and not just colorless mana) to keep the engine running.
Subterranean Tremors - Seems like fun, but really not what this deck wants.
Kaladesh
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - All 4 modes are relevant. I finally pulled Primal Vigor to put this one in (the symmetrical effect came up way too often).
Wildest Dreams - Being able to regrow multiple things makes me happy, but I'm still not convinced that the deck wants/needs Regrowth effects.
C16
Divergent Transformations - Another way to upgrade your tokens but still exile a creature or two from your opponents if they are being unruly. The fact that this exiles makes it well worth it, its an Instant, and the CMC of 7 is misleading as it will likely cost 4 or 5 a lot of the time. I ended up putting this in over Chaos Warp of all things; the deck has several ways of dealing with non-creature permanents so it didn't need the flexibility.
Tana, the Bloodsower - Was just too slow.
Treacherous Terrain - I threatened to put this into my deck a few times to punish all the Rampy McRampersons that were running loose, but its not any better than a normal X-Spell (not to mention a little bit hypocritical given this deck's mana production capabilities).
Aether Revolt
Release the Gremlins - I would probably run this over other mass-artifact removal, but the deck has that covered. Note that unlike Descent of Dragons, you can conspire this and target all the same artifacts for the copy and still get tokens from both spells.
Rishkar's Expertise - I'm still wondering whether I should try this. I have generally dismissed card draw that is based on the highest creature power (i.e. Garruk, Primal Hunter) or power of a sacrificed creature (i.e. Life's Legacy, Momentous Fall) because the deck is full of 1/1's a lot of the time, but I'm at least considering this one.
I've updated the original post to include my most up-to-date list.
EDIT:
So after playing the deck a few times, I realized that I made a few mistakes. By de-emphasizing the sacrifice theme, I made a couple cards into duds when they are normally all-stars; specifically Fresh Meat, Fecundity, and Outpost Siege. I decided that removing Phyrexian Altar was definitely a mistake as it is a mana-engine crucial to how the deck functions, but I also wanted to port in some technology that I've been using in other decks in the form of Spawning Pit; the card is ridiculous with Doubling Season, and even Parallel Lives or Mana Echoes can be serious business.
I decided on +1 Phyrexian Altar, +1 Spawning Pit, -1 Outpost Siege, -1 Divergent Transformations
Thanks! This is one of those decks that I consider semi-casual; it can do some really disgustingly good things without just saying "I win".
And I've never had anyone snicker when I pull out Wort. Most people understand that copying spells can get ridiculous if given the right support, so in my experience people are somewhat wary of her from the getgo. I think that her 6 CMC makes a lot of people less worried about dying before they get some setup going, but this deck is the perfect example of a "late combo" deck.
I'll check out your list a little later. Wort is one of those commanders that can be built in many different ways, and it is good to see how other people are trying to use/abuse her.
I don't know... I have the bad habit of walking her up to groups that are running $1,200+ decks each... So that MIGHT be the reason I get that response... And I DO play it up a bit (landbase is fun but works). lol
Thoughts? Early game drop?
"Early game drop" doesn't really apply in this format...unless you're doing 1v1. Even then, probably not.
But even then, it isn't really worth the drawback. You really want token-making cards the produce multiple tokens versus one big token.
Hour of Devastation has been relatively disappointing as far as Wort is concerned. Uncage the Menagerie seems somewhat interesting for a deck like this (specifically at X=5), but I don't really run enough creatures and I would never want to Conspire it.
I will probably wait till after C17 to make any changes to this deck unless the Hours of Devastation spoilers start showing me something different.
Ahem... My deck (in sig) runs a Krenko package... Just saying if you want to take a look see... (shameless plug over)
Granted, I can't speak for everyone, but I think that there are a few main reasons why most lists aren't running Krenko.
- Running Mr K. does take a fairly large package if you really want to abuse him. Most folk don't want to devote the slots to someone that isn't the commander out of fear of him getting exiled and the rest of the package being dead cards.
- They'd rather be casting spells rather then trying to find ways to keep on untapping Mr K. over and over. If they wanted to be untapping him, they'd be running him as the commander instead.
- You usually only need 2-4 creatures a round for conspiring stuff. Cause you will usually only be casting 1-2 spells a turn.
- I had another point, but I lost my train of thought. sorry
Any other reasons, guys?
Amonkhet
Harvest Season - I loved the idea of this card, but it really doesn't fit in the deck in it's current configuration.
Mouth//Feed - I just don't generate enough big tokens to make this worthwhile.
Throne of the God Pharaoh - This is one that I meant to try out, but I don't ever recall actually playing it. I may have to circle back and test it out.
Hour of Devastation
Firebrand Archer - I like this card in general, but I don't cast enough spells per turn to generate enough damage.
Hazoret's Undying Fury - The "converted man cost 5 or less" really hurts this card, not to mention that I have a bunch of X-spells that do nothing.
Hour of Promise - I really, really like the idea of running this as it generates mana and tokens, but it only does so if I run some Deserts. I decided against overhauling the deck to include Deserts just to enable one card.
Neheb, the Eternal - I really like this card, but I put it into a bunch of decks and decided to not include it here.
Commander 2017
Traverse the Outlands - Again, I don't run enough big creatures to make this good enough.
Ixalan
Growing Rites of Itmiloc - I love the Gaea's Cradle flipside, but Rites is a bit trickier to justify as I will generally whiff in a deck with 11 creatures. This is a card I am playing in several places elsewhere, so I pulled it from here.
Primal Amulet - I really like both sides of this card for this deck.
Rivals of Ixalan
Path of Discovery - I'm really looking forward to trying this out here as it triggers for each creature that enters the battlefield.
Pirate's Pillage - This is well worth conspiring.
Tilonalli's Summoner - I should have little problem getting the City's Blessing and once I do this card should be a wrecking ball.
So for right now, I'm +1 Primal Amulet, +1 Path of Discovery, +1 Pirate's Pillage, and +1 Tilonalli's Summoner. To fit them in, I had to make some tough cuts:
-1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance - This was intended to be a card drawing engine of sorts for the deck with a little mana boost if needed. It's a great card that I play in other decks, so I pulled it from here.
-1 Mirari - This is a favorite card of mine that just doesn't seem to do enough anymore.
-1 Sakura-Tribe Elder - Blasphemy, but I've kept the low-end part of the deck cheap enough where I don't need a 2 mana accelerator that I can't conspire.
-1 Brimstone Volley - I decided to pull one of the small burn spells. I hate pulling removal, but in this context it made sense.
Fight With Fire: The deck originally had a few mid-range burn spells that were big enough to be worth Conspiring, but cheap enough to cast to be useful as removal in the early game. Fight With Fire fills that need so much better than any other option before that I am sure that this will stay in the deck long term.
Grand Warlord Radha: There is the potential for this to be able to turn a large token army in mana without actually sacrificing all of them as I would via Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar. I don't have any way to use it in my Jund, Temur, or Naya decks, so if its going to have a spot it will be here. I think the payoff is worth it enough to give it a try.
Helm of the Host: Given that this deck runs most of the token doublers, runs several creatures with ETB effects, and has a Commander worth copying (all instances of Conspire "stack" so to speak, so with two Worts and two other creatures to tap I can copy a spell twice), I can see Helm being a very dangerous card in this deck.
Jaya Ballard: I like all the modes on this, and even though it can't be Conspired I like how this can fill a niche in the deck (especially now that Chandra, Torch of Defiance is no longer in the deck).
Jaya's Immolating Inferno: I love this card, but I don't know if this deck has the Legendary card support for it. I'm only currently running Xenagos, the Reveler, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and Worth, the Raidmother as potential cards in the deck that would enable me to cast this. As much as I like this, I just don't know if I can include it.
Saprling Migration: This is a perfect card for this deck; it's a green Dragon Fodder for the early game and it's got a reasonable Kicker cost to make this well worth Conspiring in the mid to late game.
Spore Swarm: Getting three tokens for 4 mana is a good enough deal to consider.
Right now, I'm considering the following changes:
+1 Grand Warlord Radha, -1 Oracle of Mul Daya: I love Oracle, but I figured it was a safe pull for something like Radha.
+1 Saproling Migration, -1 Gilt-Leaf Ambush: Cheaper to cast and more upside in the late game.
+1 Helm of the Host, -1 Mycoloth: I've become less of a fan of Big Mike over time.
+1 Fight with Fire, -1 Goblin Offensive: As much as I like generating Goblin tokens, this is easily the worst X-Spell in the deck.
+1 Jaya Ballard, -1 Path of Discovery: Path doesn't really do as well in the deck as I hoped and I can get more CA out of Jaya.
That leaves Spore Swarm and Jaya's Immolating Fire (which would now have 4 ways to enable it with the addition of Jaya) on the outside looking in.