I'd like to have your opinion on the early game mostly.
Problems
- After the mulligan change we can't pitch late game cards (basically anything over 4CMC) so I oftentimes found myself derping around until turn 4 unless I had a rock in my starting hand
- My meta is getting way more threatening than before. I need to be able to start taking extra turns or resolve Omniscience early to win
- Being slow means that I will have to use my tutors for control answers rather than my own gameplan
Solutions:
- Upped the land count to 37 from 36
- Swapped Skyshroud Claim for Three Visits because I want to work on my winning plan at turn 3/4, I don't want to ramp
- Cut some less powerful cards in favor of high power, low CMC mana rocks
- Counterflux is now Mana Drain as it can be used to ramp
- Added more low cost tutoring to reinforce the win conditions like Gamble (should be Imperial Seal but budget...), Mystical Tutor, Sterling Grove
Manabase
- I run 4 basics because my meta has a couple of nonbasic hate cards like Wave of Vitriol and Blood Moon
- I cut Sacred Foundry as the deck does not need white or red as much early game
- I added Ancient Tomb so increase the chance of having a 4CMC walker on turn 2 and getting at least 2 activations before it dies to a 3 drop
I could see myself replacing Reflecting Pool for something else if you guys have any suggestions
That's it for the foundations. I'll wait for you guys to give some input on this before I go further.
It's really tough to say. What's your meta looking like (deck wise)? Since you said it's getting way more threatening than before, what kind of threatening? Are they going tall or wide?
If it's that they are too aggressive, maybe you should try and run better removal and then larger threats?
Overall though, your deck definitely has a good direction as of now. Sometimes it's hard for me to gauge other's decks because my meta may play a little different. I would say it's casually competitive, so this deck can at least survive a little while.
My other question is: you seem to want to go a little cheaper in cost to keep up, but you also seem to rely a lot on Omniscience?
Last suggestion: Lethal Vapors. Seriously, the card is so good. It plays into your Academy Rector strategy (even though I'm not a huge fan of).
Nice primer. I'm running a Sultai list and have been thinking of tweaking it, despite the color differences this thread has been a great help.
Awesome! Would love to see a list. Since there are a couple other people who run Bant or Jeskai, maybe I should change the primer to be just X color(s) Superfriends deck?
Sure, here is my current list, though I'm looking at some substantial changes once Eldritch Moon drops:
I went with Sultai because I thought it would be an interesting twist on the typical superfriends deck, I've been enjoying it. I started with a Vorosh, the Hunter list with a lot more +1/+1 counter shenanigans.
I think your primer is fine as is, you've helpfully sorted your cards by color so I could easily ignore the white and red cards.
Your deck looks great right now, and the suggestions definitely seem appropriate. Were the artifact lands not too good with Tezz?
Also, as I suggested to Yalpe, consider Lethal Vapors. Granted, your deck is a little more creature oriented. But you did just drop two. It's seriously such a good card, though.
Your deck looks great right now, and the suggestions definitely seem appropriate. Were the artifact lands not too good with Tezz?
Also, as I suggested to Yalpe, consider Lethal Vapors. Granted, your deck is a little more creature oriented. But you did just drop two. It's seriously such a good card, though.
Thanks, thre are enough wipes of all varieties in my meta that the artifact lands felt a little too fragile.
Lethal Vapors is definitely in consideration, thanks for the suggestion, it seems great.
When I built this deck I already had a separate Tasigur, the Golden Fang deck, so I didn't really consider him. With some tweaking he might suit the deck better, I'll have to play around with some builds. Damia has been fine, I mostly ignore her unless I need cards ASAP. Deathtouch helps too.
The main issues in my meta for this deck is that it feels a little too slow. There are times when I have the advantage, but can't quite capitalize on it well enough. I think I need more tutors, or need to reevaluate how I play the deck.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep an eye on this thread.
I'm pondering cuts for the new additions. Garruk, Primal Hunter never feels super strong for me because I rarely have creatures, unless Sliver Queen is out, which in that case draw 7 is great. I want to find a place for new Tamiyo.
How has Phyrexian Arena been performing? If I don't have walkers out, it is nice to find them through extra draw, but I've seen it get blown up early game sometimes. I guess on that side, I'd rather bait removal with arena and then drop Doubling Season, Moat, The Abyss, etc.
On the other side, if I already have walkers out, I probably have great card draw.
I'm close to cut Garruk due to the mana rocks I run which are worse than Chromatic Lantern / Coalition Relic to cast him at GGG. Kind of the same deal with Arena, I don't really want to / can't always fetch for BB early. The deck already draws a ton. I might swap it for Mystic Remora.
Another plane I don't really like on curve is Elspeth Knight Errant. Aside from the 10 damage hits with the queen she's not that nice plus she's WW.
I'm pondering cuts for the new additions. Garruk, Primal Hunter never feels super strong for me because I rarely have creatures, unless Sliver Queen is out, which in that case draw 7 is great. I want to find a place for new Tamiyo.
How has Phyrexian Arena been performing? If I don't have walkers out, it is nice to find them through extra draw, but I've seen it get blown up early game sometimes. I guess on that side, I'd rather bait removal with arena and then drop Doubling Season, Moat, The Abyss, etc.
On the other side, if I already have walkers out, I probably have great card draw.
I've been tempted to drop Garruk, too. He's nice cause he drops out 3/3's, and his ultimate is a decent win condition. But then again, maybe not. You could always go plus and then minus for draw three, though. I would say I'm decently tempted to drop it too.
Arena is great, imo. It just functions well, unless you're in some really aggressive meta.
I'm close to cut Garruk due to the mana rocks I run which are worse than Chromatic Lantern / Coalition Relic to cast him at GGG. Kind of the same deal with Arena, I don't really want to / can't always fetch for BB early. The deck already draws a ton. I might swap it for Mystic Remora.
Another plane I don't really like on curve is Elspeth Knight Errant. Aside from the 10 damage hits with the queen she's not that nice plus she's WW.
Elspeth is one of my favorite walkers, to be honest. She generates blockers and little threats, and her ultimate is a really good win condition. What are you thinking about dropping it for?
I'm trying to evaluate walkers in a pessimistic way where they only get one activation. At best, Knight Errant gives you a 1/1 or pushes some damage. This is far from impressive. The ult is good but is far from a game winner in my experience due to all the wraths and CRift. I've lost a couple of games with it out.
Same deal with Garruk, sure the 3/3 is nice, but the minus is "ok" unless you don't have your commander out. 2GGG to draw 3 cards out of a beast is not that great. The ult is fine tho. That's why I'm on the fence. He has more upside than Knight Errant but triple green is harsh.
Very valid. I run Mystic Remora in a number of decks and it either causes people to stop casting spells or I'm getting cards. That tax is way higher than rhystic study. In my Brago deck, I can reset the upkeep too by flickering (paging Mr. Venser)
Elspeth knight Errant,Jace AOT and Garruk primal Hunter has been quite underwhelming and i took it out,probably also due to my meta playing derevi, Narset enlightened Master, Kaalia and Zur the enchanter. I never really played phrexian arena and rhystic study. Necropotence is more than good enough.
I went through the same experience mattz123. This is why I'm reorienting the deck to a "win one on or a few consecutive turns" style. I'm not sure it will work but without another control deck at the table, planeswalker just don't survive. My meta has sidisi bug zombies/narset, tasigur reanimator (basically dies to doom blade's list) and rafiq/omnath2.0.
It will probably take a few more sets until we have a solid core of planeswalkers to play with, and even then, this archetype will never be more than a casual fun deck IMO.
It's been a long while since I last posted here, but I've been taking this to my Commander tourneys (starts with pods of 3/4, then has a "finals" pod) here and tend to do well, other than against dedicated land destruction/basic land hate decks as well as others that can ramp faster, and that's assuming they didn't turn us into the Archenemy already. Against creature-heavy decks Humility tends to be backbreaking enough.
At this time I'm still trying to find a good mix for the deck, but I agree with one of the more recent comments; we can't really count enough on expecting multiple "basic" activations with any planeswalkers, especially if there are way too many and/or superior threats (i.e. creatures) on the board. I'll post my decklist later, but I've shifted more towards an enchantment heavy build, with a bigger focus on getting an emblem out ASAP. In essence, if I can get Omniscience and/or Doubling Season, Tamiyo, and any "take extra turn" cards, I usually get to play solitaire and people scoop, or with any other emblem at least severely turn the game towards us.
As to how to get them there, especially early game, that tends to be a challenge; whenever I ramp I immediately become a target, nevermind how having Sliver Queen automatically makes some treat you as the Archenemy from the get-go. On the other hand, people tend to be wary of exposing themselves just to get rid of us, so we can at times stall out.
My new favorite cards to help cheat permanents (enchantments or planeswalkers) into play have been similar to reanimate: some combination of Entomb, Dack Fayden, Obzedat's Aid and Replenish. I wanted another way beyond Academy Rector to bring out our heavy hitters, and I think this is yet another way while allowing us to save our tutors for something to work with them (e.g. Entomb Omni/Doubling Season during end phase of opponent, then use whichever tutor you need to set up an emblem during your upkeep). Again, the goal is an emblem, as they tend to swing the game in our favor instead of trying to keep things "fair", especially since they already assume we're up to something as soon as we reveal Sliver Queen.
It's been a long while since I last posted here, but I've been taking this to my Commander tourneys (starts with pods of 3/4, then has a "finals" pod) here and tend to do well, other than against dedicated land destruction/basic land hate decks as well as others that can ramp faster, and that's assuming they didn't turn us into the Archenemy already. Against creature-heavy decks Humility tends to be backbreaking enough.
At this time I'm still trying to find a good mix for the deck, but I agree with one of the more recent comments; we can't really count enough on expecting multiple "basic" activations with any planeswalkers, especially if there are way too many and/or superior threats (i.e. creatures) on the board. I'll post my decklist later, but I've shifted more towards an enchantment heavy build, with a bigger focus on getting an emblem out ASAP. In essence, if I can get Omniscience and/or Doubling Season, Tamiyo, and any "take extra turn" cards, I usually get to play solitaire and people scoop, or with any other emblem at least severely turn the game towards us.
As to how to get them there, especially early game, that tends to be a challenge; whenever I ramp I immediately become a target, nevermind how having Sliver Queen automatically makes some treat you as the Archenemy from the get-go. On the other hand, people tend to be wary of exposing themselves just to get rid of us, so we can at times stall out.
My new favorite cards to help cheat permanents (enchantments or planeswalkers) into play have been similar to reanimate: some combination of Entomb, Dack Fayden, Obzedat's Aid and Replenish. I wanted another way beyond Academy Rector to bring out our heavy hitters, and I think this is yet another way while allowing us to save our tutors for something to work with them (e.g. Entomb Omni/Doubling Season during end phase of opponent, then use whichever tutor you need to set up an emblem during your upkeep). Again, the goal is an emblem, as they tend to swing the game in our favor instead of trying to keep things "fair", especially since they already assume we're up to something as soon as we reveal Sliver Queen.
How have your games been as of late?
Humility being an all-star is why I'm running Sterling Grove. It also fetches Omniscience at instant speed late game. I think Replenish is interesting for Omniscience but why not run Yawgmoth's Will? I wish the deck had an all star land that could make Entomb better with Crucible of Worlds because I think your idea is interesting but its kind of a dead card if you start with both in hand.
Emblems are obviously a nice alternate win condition if the infinite turn plan fails. That's why I kept Contagion Engine even though its very mana intensive, it can ult some planes on the spot like Sorin, Solemn Visitor or after one activation like Ral Zarek lowering the need to keep Doubling Season alive to win. Its also an all star with Ring's of Brighthearth altough its very mana intensive.
My games have been going mostly like this:
- Decksturbate for 4-5 turns while I browse my deck for lands
- Start playing a few planeswalker on T3+
- Watch them die to token/voltron decks
- Tutor for an answer to the combo deck that is going infinite next turn
- Stabilise then get reset by Cyclonic Rift
- Either lose the game overtime, or stabilise and sneak a win through humility + token bash / infinite turns
The deck is lacking great win conditions from its theme (planeswalkers). I could easily add infinite mana or kiki combos but that's not how I want to play the deck.
I agree with #1 and #2 but they are quite pricy (especially Capture). I'm also fine with Savor the Moment due to it being a 3CMC spell. But after that it gets interesting. I would like you guys to evaluate the spells from these possible interactions with the deck:
I did the exercise and here are the pros and cons:
Time Warp
Works with Narset
Neutral with topdeck manipulation
Works OK with Sorin's +1
Very bad against Misdirection
Walk the Aeons
Works with Narset
Neutral with topdeck manipulation
Works well with Sorin's +1
Very bad against Misdirection
The buyback is a plus
Temporal Mastery
Does not work with Narset
Excellent with topdeck manipulation
Works well with Sorin's +1
Not affected by Misdirection
Temporal Trespass
Works with Narset
Neutral with topdeck manipulation
Works extremelly well with Sorin's +1
Not affected by Misdirection
Altough Delve can help hardcast it, UUU is prohibitive
I'm a bit torn. I'd like to run #1 for sure, #4 seems fine. But after that, I'm lost. Time Warp + Mastery seems ok, but Walk the Aeons has some nice upside too. What do you guys think? Should topdeck manipulation win over a possible rebounded extra turn or even playing around misdirection?
I went with Sultai because I thought it would be an interesting twist on the typical superfriends deck, I've been enjoying it. I started with a Vorosh, the Hunter list with a lot more +1/+1 counter shenanigans.
I think your primer is fine as is, you've helpfully sorted your cards by color so I could easily ignore the white and red cards.
I agree with your assessment on the proliferation cards, they're ultimately too slow. I am going to try out an extra turn package in their place. Lethal Vapors is a card I'm looking forward to trying out. I'm not sure how it will play in my meta, I'm usually the "Bad Guy", so people might be more likely to skip their turn for the good of the group.
I'm a bit torn. I'd like to run #1 for sure, #4 seems fine. But after that, I'm lost. Time Warp + Mastery seems ok, but Walk the Aeons has some nice upside too. What do you guys think? Should topdeck manipulation win over a possible rebounded extra turn or even playing around misdirection?
Sorry guys, haven't been keeping up with my birthday a week ago and family in town. Anyway, EMN dropped today. I'll do a formal update and review, but here's my update:
Garruk, Primal Hunter -> Tamiyo, Field Researcher - Tamiyo might be one of the best cards in the deck, but she definitely seems pretty good. At first I was like nope, can't be played. Until I realized that you can target opponents creatures on her plus. Garruk suffers from GGG and sometimes just needing a little more set up to be good.
Beast Within -> Oath of Liliana - Favorite Oath, it's just so good. I almost want to run Venser, but eh. I was stuck between Utter End and Beast Within, and since both are instants and Beast Within leaves a 3/3 behind, I think the extra mana is worth it. Are deck is primarily trying to protect the planeswalkers, and giving our opponents 3/3s isn't good for that.
37 Lands:
10 Fetch lands
10 Dual lands
10 Shock Lands
Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth
Mana Confluence
City Of Brass
Ancient Tomb
Command Tower
Mishra's Workshop
Strip Mine
16 Ramps & Mana Fixers:
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Fellwar Stone
Nature's Lore
Three Visits
Grim Monolith
Gilded Lotus
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
Azorius Signet
Dimir Signet
Exploration
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Unity
Talisman of Progress
Izzet Signet
7 Mass Removal:
Toxic deluge
Merciless eviction
The Abyss
Supreme Verdict
Humility
Austere Command
17 Card draws/Filters/Tutors/Enhancers:
Sensei Top
Sylvan Library
Oath of Jace
Imperial Seal
Demonic Tutor
Unfulfilled Desires
Enlighten Tutor
Necropotence
Temporal Manipulation
Time Warp
Capture of Jingzhou
Ring Of Brighthearth
Vindicate
Regrowth
Doubling Season
Anugish Unmaking
Yawgmoth's will
23 Planeswalkers:
Dack Fayden
Ajani Steadfast
Ral Zarek
Nahiri
Garruk Wildspeaker
Narset Transcendent
Jace The Mind Sculptor
Jace Architect of Thought
Jace Reveler of Secrets
Tamiyo, The Moon Sage
Venser, The Sojourner
Sarkhan Unbroken
Tezzeret the Seeker
Elspeth, Sun's champion
Tamiyo Field Researcher
Liliana Vess
Ob Nixilis Regnited
Teferi Temporal Archmage
Chandra Firecaller
Sorin Grim Nemesis
Karn liberated
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
Academy Ruins ---> Mishra's Workshop
I played mainly artifact ramps due to prevailing land stax meta and also as a hedge against cards like blood moon and back to basics. Mishra's workshop helps greatly to accelerate in early game to power up a gilded lotus/Coalition Relic/ Ring Of Brighthearth in mid late game.
Oath of Nissa ---> Exploration
Oath of Nissa tends to be quite underwhelming in my deck except for the occasional Venser chain. I tested e ploration and find that it is good thruout the course of the game since i am focused on ramping early and i have a tendency to have man card draws in midlate game.
Phyrexian Arena ---> Unfulfilled Dreams
Unfulfilled Desire acts as a pseudo Necropotence. I find that card quality is much more important than card quantity. It helps to filter the deck much quicker to find a mass removal answer. The greatest use of this card i find is that it acts like a instant speed demonic tutor at the cost of 1 life/mana/card for the one mana tutors the deck plays. Great if you need an answer urgently.
Oath Of Gideon ---> Ajani Steadfast
Ajani Steadfast seems to have more value than Oath of Gideon at a additional cost of 1mana and provides a important source of lifegain in lategame via sliverqueen beatdown, especially so since i tend to take much damage from mana crypt/Necropotence/Ancient tomb.
Ajani Vengeant ---> Tamiyo Field Researcher
This is a no brainer. Doubling season and Tamiyo means GG.
Sorin markov ----> Sorin Grim Nemesis
I am still proritising card draws and thos is one of the few planeswalker that can aim opponent's planswalkers.
Beast within ----> Anguish unmaking
Loss of 3 life is better than giving a 3/3 beast to opponent.
Kiora the crashing wave ----> Nahiri
Nahiri starts off with a higher loyalty counter and her ability to exile problematic enchanments and synergy with Tamiyos and Ral Zarek warrants her a spot.her +2 filter is great to uptick her fast.
Jokulhapps ----> Merciless eviction
I am taking out my win condition to try merciless eviction for more interaction. Merciless evction exiles creatures and planeswalkers which helps in reanimator strageies.Jokulhapps tend to hit many of my artifact ramps even though it is much more effective to win in multiplayer settings. I think i will play both in competitve edh plays though.
Some cards i am still considering are Oath of Gideon, lethal vapours (only in 1v1), Daretti the scrap savant ( as i play many artifacts and his filtering is good), throne of geth, ensnaring bridge ( both can be tutored by tezzert and Moat.
I am thinking of trying out Chrome Mox/ Mox Diamond/Utopia sprawl/Wild growth for more explosive play. Any feedbacks for my current decklist is appreciated. Thanks!
Oath of Nissa ---> Exploration
Oath of Nissa tends to be quite underwhelming in my deck except for the occasional Venser chain. I tested e ploration and find that it is good thruout the course of the game since i am focused on ramping early and i have a tendency to have man card draws in midlate game.
I'm not sure about Eploration. Its great in the starting hand but you need pretty consistent draw to keep it going. Should this be a rock? I'd be willing to try it again but last time I tried it I cut it after a few games.
Phyrexian Arena ---> Unfulfilled Dreams
Unfulfilled Desire acts as a pseudo Necropotence. I find that card quality is much more important than card quantity. It helps to filter the deck much quicker to find a mass removal answer. The greatest use of this card i find is that it acts like a instant speed demonic tutor at the cost of 1 life/mana/card for the one mana tutors the deck plays. Great if you need an answer urgently.
Interesting card. I'm very close to cutting Phyrexian Arena because its too slow. I was thinking of trying Mystic Remora instead. I might also give this card a shot.
Oath Of Gideon ---> Ajani Steadfast
Ajani Steadfast seems to have more value than Oath of Gideon at a additional cost of 1mana and provides a important source of lifegain in lategame via sliverqueen beatdown, especially so since i tend to take much damage from mana crypt/Necropotence/Ancient tomb.
Steadfast has been amazing for me. All of his modes are relevant. He's a little bit awkward when he's alone on the board tho. I'm not a big fan of the Oaths as they don't provide a whole lot of value unless you play them early.
Kiora the crashing wave ----> Nahiri
Nahiri starts off with a higher loyalty counter and her ability to exile problematic enchanments and synergy with Tamiyos and Ral Zarek warrants her a spot.her +2 filter is great to uptick her fast.
I don't like both TBH. Kiora does not provide much value for 4 mana unless she sticks. She can't ult with doubling season... Nahiri is also awkward. The card quality is quite high in this deck so discarding a card is not always possible. I already have this issue with Dack Fayden sometimes. 4 mana to exile something is a lot. Might has well just run Utter End. Her ult is a complete fizzle in this deck as in it does not win you the game at all.
Jokulhapps ----> Merciless eviction
I am taking out my win condition to try merciless eviction for more interaction. Merciless evction exiles creatures and planeswalkers which helps in reanimator strageies.Jokulhapps tend to hit many of my artifact ramps even though it is much more effective to win in multiplayer settings. I think i will play both in competitve edh plays though.
I like both. Evition is great if you play in a graveyard heavy meta.
Some cards i am still considering are Oath of Gideon, lethal vapours (only in 1v1), Daretti the scrap savant ( as i play many artifacts and his filtering is good), throne of geth, ensnaring bridge ( both can be tutored by tezzert and Moat.
I am thinking of trying out Chrome Mox/ Mox Diamond/Utopia sprawl/Wild growth for more explosive play. Any feedbacks for my current decklist is appreciated. Thanks!
I will be adding Lethal Vapors to my list soon as a test. I will report back later. I had Ensnaring Bridge for a while and it only prevents lethal swings (Cratehoof). It does not prevent cards like Trygon Predator from attacking or anything with power 3 or less to kill your planes. It does not really advance our gameplan and is a weird political tool. Out of the fast mana cards I like Mox Diamond more because in my current decklist I only have 14 green mana symbols, 5 of those being garruks. Yours seem also green light. The extra fixing is good.
I'd play Contagion Engine over Throne of Geth even if it has a higher CMC. The value it generates is amazing. It can be tutored by Tezzeret off Doubling Season too. It could give you a good reason to ult Nahiri. If you look at your planeswalker list, a lot of them ult after 3 +1 activations. I've gotten a lot of ults after playing a planes, doing the +1 and then next turn drop Contagion, Proliferate twice into the ult. Its also good defense if you can activate it the same turn its played (-3/-3 gets rid of a lot of creatures).
Exploration seems to be a good choice for me as i tend to ramp very early (i have abt twice as many rocks the official list here) , thus able to ramp out a planswalker as early as turn 2. Might play only chrome mox and utopia sprwal even though both utopia sprawl and wild growth doesnt give you card disadvantage (except strip mind) but wild growth only give green mana. Mox diamond seems conflicting with exploration.
Nahiri has been great so far in my meta here. As a recurring removal, she provides more value than utter end. She is the only planeswalker answer to mana vortex, blood moon, back to basis, aura shards, Omniscience, necropotence, oblivion ring, solidarity confinement, sneak attack, stranglehold, leyline of anticipation, Opposition, Aether zone,mirari's wake and mind over matter.
Hello guys!
I would like to have your advice, it is possible to build a superfriends deck on a budget?
Should I cut some colors or expensive cards?
The lack of competitivity is not a problem, I just want to have fun and add cards when I have money to spend.
Thx a lot!
Yeah it is. You'll sacrifice speed for fixing and your win conditions will be less reliable but it can be done.
What kind of budget are we working with? The best planes are pricy.
Playing Narset as your general would cut some cost while keeping some competitiveness.
Well, right now I don't even have the money to buy a single card haha. I'm just investigating among decks that I'm sure I'll enjoy in the future.
Thanks for your answer, Narset seems to be a good choice indeed, I'll look in that direction!
I like Narset, but red is just so weak in the format imo. I would suggest possibly bant (WUG) with someone like Angus Mackenzie. There's quite a bit of good planeswalkers in those color, including the new Tamiyo.
Bant is probably pricier. With Narset her shell does not cost much (a bunch of rocks) and then you can still have fun with whatever you've got once you trigger her ability. She's great with time walk effects. Losing black sucks the most but the deck runs mostly on UW anyways (wipes, counters, most planeswalkers, time magic). Green is better than red but I like Narset more on a budget. It's kind of a two colored deck with a red splash making the manabase easier to balance.
I have a Narset list, and I just popped it into MTGGoldfish deck pricer, yeah it isn't budget haha. But I'll include it anyway just for reference. It has a lot of the typical Narset pieces (extra turns, combats, fast mana) but I have 14 walkers, so definitely a little bit of superfriend theme.
So I've tested my current changes a few times and it has been going amazing so far. I had some very explosive starts. The mana rocks make the untap effects of our planeswalkers amazing. I will try to find room for Basalt Monolith because infinite mana is cool with Sliver Queen. The fact that I can win on the spot on a single turn reduces the need for a huge control package so I'm ready to make more room for the Basalt combo and extra turn effects (Temporal Manipulation is on the way). I might cut a 6CMC wrath, either Merciless Eviction or Austere Command. I like the fact that a single mana rock adds another wincond to the deck as well as helping me ramp to lategame ASAP.
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If it's that they are too aggressive, maybe you should try and run better removal and then larger threats?
Overall though, your deck definitely has a good direction as of now. Sometimes it's hard for me to gauge other's decks because my meta may play a little different. I would say it's casually competitive, so this deck can at least survive a little while.
My other question is: you seem to want to go a little cheaper in cost to keep up, but you also seem to rely a lot on Omniscience?
Last suggestion: Lethal Vapors. Seriously, the card is so good. It plays into your Academy Rector strategy (even though I'm not a huge fan of).
Also, as I suggested to Yalpe, consider Lethal Vapors. Granted, your deck is a little more creature oriented. But you did just drop two. It's seriously such a good card, though.
Also, how do you like Damia? She seems really good, but if not, try Tasigur, the Golden Fang.
What problems are you facing in your meta?
Thanks, thre are enough wipes of all varieties in my meta that the artifact lands felt a little too fragile.
Lethal Vapors is definitely in consideration, thanks for the suggestion, it seems great.
When I built this deck I already had a separate Tasigur, the Golden Fang deck, so I didn't really consider him. With some tweaking he might suit the deck better, I'll have to play around with some builds. Damia has been fine, I mostly ignore her unless I need cards ASAP. Deathtouch helps too.
The main issues in my meta for this deck is that it feels a little too slow. There are times when I have the advantage, but can't quite capitalize on it well enough. I think I need more tutors, or need to reevaluate how I play the deck.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep an eye on this thread.
How has Phyrexian Arena been performing? If I don't have walkers out, it is nice to find them through extra draw, but I've seen it get blown up early game sometimes. I guess on that side, I'd rather bait removal with arena and then drop Doubling Season, Moat, The Abyss, etc.
On the other side, if I already have walkers out, I probably have great card draw.
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
Another plane I don't really like on curve is Elspeth Knight Errant. Aside from the 10 damage hits with the queen she's not that nice plus she's WW.
Arena is great, imo. It just functions well, unless you're in some really aggressive meta.
Elspeth is one of my favorite walkers, to be honest. She generates blockers and little threats, and her ultimate is a really good win condition. What are you thinking about dropping it for?
Same deal with Garruk, sure the 3/3 is nice, but the minus is "ok" unless you don't have your commander out. 2GGG to draw 3 cards out of a beast is not that great. The ult is fine tho. That's why I'm on the fence. He has more upside than Knight Errant but triple green is harsh.
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
But the real question is, do you run all three?
It will probably take a few more sets until we have a solid core of planeswalkers to play with, and even then, this archetype will never be more than a casual fun deck IMO.
At this time I'm still trying to find a good mix for the deck, but I agree with one of the more recent comments; we can't really count enough on expecting multiple "basic" activations with any planeswalkers, especially if there are way too many and/or superior threats (i.e. creatures) on the board. I'll post my decklist later, but I've shifted more towards an enchantment heavy build, with a bigger focus on getting an emblem out ASAP. In essence, if I can get Omniscience and/or Doubling Season, Tamiyo, and any "take extra turn" cards, I usually get to play solitaire and people scoop, or with any other emblem at least severely turn the game towards us.
As to how to get them there, especially early game, that tends to be a challenge; whenever I ramp I immediately become a target, nevermind how having Sliver Queen automatically makes some treat you as the Archenemy from the get-go. On the other hand, people tend to be wary of exposing themselves just to get rid of us, so we can at times stall out.
My new favorite cards to help cheat permanents (enchantments or planeswalkers) into play have been similar to reanimate: some combination of Entomb, Dack Fayden, Obzedat's Aid and Replenish. I wanted another way beyond Academy Rector to bring out our heavy hitters, and I think this is yet another way while allowing us to save our tutors for something to work with them (e.g. Entomb Omni/Doubling Season during end phase of opponent, then use whichever tutor you need to set up an emblem during your upkeep). Again, the goal is an emblem, as they tend to swing the game in our favor instead of trying to keep things "fair", especially since they already assume we're up to something as soon as we reveal Sliver Queen.
How have your games been as of late?
Humility being an all-star is why I'm running Sterling Grove. It also fetches Omniscience at instant speed late game. I think Replenish is interesting for Omniscience but why not run Yawgmoth's Will? I wish the deck had an all star land that could make Entomb better with Crucible of Worlds because I think your idea is interesting but its kind of a dead card if you start with both in hand.
Emblems are obviously a nice alternate win condition if the infinite turn plan fails. That's why I kept Contagion Engine even though its very mana intensive, it can ult some planes on the spot like Sorin, Solemn Visitor or after one activation like Ral Zarek lowering the need to keep Doubling Season alive to win. Its also an all star with Ring's of Brighthearth altough its very mana intensive.
My games have been going mostly like this:
- Decksturbate for 4-5 turns while I browse my deck for lands
- Start playing a few planeswalker on T3+
- Watch them die to token/voltron decks
- Tutor for an answer to the combo deck that is going infinite next turn
- Stabilise then get reset by Cyclonic Rift
- Either lose the game overtime, or stabilise and sneak a win through humility + token bash / infinite turns
The deck is lacking great win conditions from its theme (planeswalkers). I could easily add infinite mana or kiki combos but that's not how I want to play the deck.
From the primer it seems that the preferred order (price aside)
1 - Temporal Manipulation
2 - Capture of Jingzhou
3 - Time Warp
4 - Savor the Moment
5 - Walk the Aeons
6 - Temporal Mastery
7 - Temporal Trespass
I agree with #1 and #2 but they are quite pricy (especially Capture). I'm also fine with Savor the Moment due to it being a 3CMC spell. But after that it gets interesting. I would like you guys to evaluate the spells from these possible interactions with the deck:
- Narset Transcendent's rebound (does not work if the spell exiles itself)
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sensei's Divining Top Sylvan Library Vampiric Tutor topdeck manipulation and Miracle
- Sorin, Grim Nemesis's +1 and the card's converted mana cost
- Misdirection effects that are not uncommon
I did the exercise and here are the pros and cons:
Time Warp
Works with Narset
Neutral with topdeck manipulation
Works OK with Sorin's +1
Very bad against Misdirection
Walk the Aeons
Works with Narset
Neutral with topdeck manipulation
Works well with Sorin's +1
Very bad against Misdirection
The buyback is a plus
Temporal Mastery
Does not work with Narset
Excellent with topdeck manipulation
Works well with Sorin's +1
Not affected by Misdirection
Temporal Trespass
Works with Narset
Neutral with topdeck manipulation
Works extremelly well with Sorin's +1
Not affected by Misdirection
Altough Delve can help hardcast it, UUU is prohibitive
I'm a bit torn. I'd like to run #1 for sure, #4 seems fine. But after that, I'm lost. Time Warp + Mastery seems ok, but Walk the Aeons has some nice upside too. What do you guys think? Should topdeck manipulation win over a possible rebounded extra turn or even playing around misdirection?
I've done more tweaking on my Sultai list, these are the new changes I'm thinking of once EDM drops.
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Tree of Tales
1x Voidslime
1x Aetherize
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Spike Weaver
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Contagion Engine
1x Academy Ruins
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Oath of Liliana
1x Lethal Vapors
1x Sylvan Library
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Sorin Markov
1x Temporal Manipulation
1x Time Warp
1x Savor the Moment
I agree with your assessment on the proliferation cards, they're ultimately too slow. I am going to try out an extra turn package in their place. Lethal Vapors is a card I'm looking forward to trying out. I'm not sure how it will play in my meta, I'm usually the "Bad Guy", so people might be more likely to skip their turn for the good of the group.
I also decided to keep Nevinyrral's Disk in.
I think it is a meta call. I don't see a lot of Misdirection effects, so it is less important to me. I also don't (can't) play Narset Transcendent and Sorin, Grim Nemesis in my Sultai list, so I lean towards Temporal Mastery.
Garruk, Primal Hunter -> Tamiyo, Field Researcher - Tamiyo might be one of the best cards in the deck, but she definitely seems pretty good. At first I was like nope, can't be played. Until I realized that you can target opponents creatures on her plus. Garruk suffers from GGG and sometimes just needing a little more set up to be good.
Beast Within -> Oath of Liliana - Favorite Oath, it's just so good. I almost want to run Venser, but eh. I was stuck between Utter End and Beast Within, and since both are instants and Beast Within leaves a 3/3 behind, I think the extra mana is worth it. Are deck is primarily trying to protect the planeswalkers, and giving our opponents 3/3s isn't good for that.
37 Lands:
10 Fetch lands
10 Dual lands
10 Shock Lands
Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth
Mana Confluence
City Of Brass
Ancient Tomb
Command Tower
Mishra's Workshop
Strip Mine
16 Ramps & Mana Fixers:
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Fellwar Stone
Nature's Lore
Three Visits
Grim Monolith
Gilded Lotus
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
Azorius Signet
Dimir Signet
Exploration
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Unity
Talisman of Progress
Izzet Signet
7 Mass Removal:
Toxic deluge
Merciless eviction
The Abyss
Supreme Verdict
Humility
Austere Command
17 Card draws/Filters/Tutors/Enhancers:
Sensei Top
Sylvan Library
Oath of Jace
Imperial Seal
Demonic Tutor
Unfulfilled Desires
Enlighten Tutor
Necropotence
Temporal Manipulation
Time Warp
Capture of Jingzhou
Ring Of Brighthearth
Vindicate
Regrowth
Doubling Season
Anugish Unmaking
Yawgmoth's will
23 Planeswalkers:
Dack Fayden
Ajani Steadfast
Ral Zarek
Nahiri
Garruk Wildspeaker
Narset Transcendent
Jace The Mind Sculptor
Jace Architect of Thought
Jace Reveler of Secrets
Tamiyo, The Moon Sage
Venser, The Sojourner
Sarkhan Unbroken
Tezzeret the Seeker
Elspeth, Sun's champion
Tamiyo Field Researcher
Liliana Vess
Ob Nixilis Regnited
Teferi Temporal Archmage
Chandra Firecaller
Sorin Grim Nemesis
Karn liberated
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
Academy Ruins ---> Mishra's Workshop
I played mainly artifact ramps due to prevailing land stax meta and also as a hedge against cards like blood moon and back to basics. Mishra's workshop helps greatly to accelerate in early game to power up a gilded lotus/Coalition Relic/ Ring Of Brighthearth in mid late game.
Oath of Nissa ---> Exploration
Oath of Nissa tends to be quite underwhelming in my deck except for the occasional Venser chain. I tested e ploration and find that it is good thruout the course of the game since i am focused on ramping early and i have a tendency to have man card draws in midlate game.
Phyrexian Arena ---> Unfulfilled Dreams
Unfulfilled Desire acts as a pseudo Necropotence. I find that card quality is much more important than card quantity. It helps to filter the deck much quicker to find a mass removal answer. The greatest use of this card i find is that it acts like a instant speed demonic tutor at the cost of 1 life/mana/card for the one mana tutors the deck plays. Great if you need an answer urgently.
Oath Of Gideon ---> Ajani Steadfast
Ajani Steadfast seems to have more value than Oath of Gideon at a additional cost of 1mana and provides a important source of lifegain in lategame via sliverqueen beatdown, especially so since i tend to take much damage from mana crypt/Necropotence/Ancient tomb.
Ajani Vengeant ---> Tamiyo Field Researcher
This is a no brainer. Doubling season and Tamiyo means GG.
Sorin markov ----> Sorin Grim Nemesis
I am still proritising card draws and thos is one of the few planeswalker that can aim opponent's planswalkers.
Beast within ----> Anguish unmaking
Loss of 3 life is better than giving a 3/3 beast to opponent.
Kiora the crashing wave ----> Nahiri
Nahiri starts off with a higher loyalty counter and her ability to exile problematic enchanments and synergy with Tamiyos and Ral Zarek warrants her a spot.her +2 filter is great to uptick her fast.
Jokulhapps ----> Merciless eviction
I am taking out my win condition to try merciless eviction for more interaction. Merciless evction exiles creatures and planeswalkers which helps in reanimator strageies.Jokulhapps tend to hit many of my artifact ramps even though it is much more effective to win in multiplayer settings. I think i will play both in competitve edh plays though.
Some cards i am still considering are Oath of Gideon, lethal vapours (only in 1v1), Daretti the scrap savant ( as i play many artifacts and his filtering is good), throne of geth, ensnaring bridge ( both can be tutored by tezzert and Moat.
I am thinking of trying out Chrome Mox/ Mox Diamond/Utopia sprawl/Wild growth for more explosive play. Any feedbacks for my current decklist is appreciated. Thanks!
I'm not sure about Eploration. Its great in the starting hand but you need pretty consistent draw to keep it going. Should this be a rock? I'd be willing to try it again but last time I tried it I cut it after a few games.
Interesting card. I'm very close to cutting Phyrexian Arena because its too slow. I was thinking of trying Mystic Remora instead. I might also give this card a shot.
Steadfast has been amazing for me. All of his modes are relevant. He's a little bit awkward when he's alone on the board tho. I'm not a big fan of the Oaths as they don't provide a whole lot of value unless you play them early.
I came to the exact same conclusion.
I don't like both TBH. Kiora does not provide much value for 4 mana unless she sticks. She can't ult with doubling season... Nahiri is also awkward. The card quality is quite high in this deck so discarding a card is not always possible. I already have this issue with Dack Fayden sometimes. 4 mana to exile something is a lot. Might has well just run Utter End. Her ult is a complete fizzle in this deck as in it does not win you the game at all.
I like both. Evition is great if you play in a graveyard heavy meta.
I will be adding Lethal Vapors to my list soon as a test. I will report back later. I had Ensnaring Bridge for a while and it only prevents lethal swings (Cratehoof). It does not prevent cards like Trygon Predator from attacking or anything with power 3 or less to kill your planes. It does not really advance our gameplan and is a weird political tool. Out of the fast mana cards I like Mox Diamond more because in my current decklist I only have 14 green mana symbols, 5 of those being garruks. Yours seem also green light. The extra fixing is good.
I'd play Contagion Engine over Throne of Geth even if it has a higher CMC. The value it generates is amazing. It can be tutored by Tezzeret off Doubling Season too. It could give you a good reason to ult Nahiri. If you look at your planeswalker list, a lot of them ult after 3 +1 activations. I've gotten a lot of ults after playing a planes, doing the +1 and then next turn drop Contagion, Proliferate twice into the ult. Its also good defense if you can activate it the same turn its played (-3/-3 gets rid of a lot of creatures).
Nahiri has been great so far in my meta here. As a recurring removal, she provides more value than utter end. She is the only planeswalker answer to mana vortex, blood moon, back to basis, aura shards, Omniscience, necropotence, oblivion ring, solidarity confinement, sneak attack, stranglehold, leyline of anticipation, Opposition, Aether zone,mirari's wake and mind over matter.
Yeah it is. You'll sacrifice speed for fixing and your win conditions will be less reliable but it can be done.
What kind of budget are we working with? The best planes are pricy.
Playing Narset as your general would cut some cost while keeping some competitiveness.
Narset Super Duper
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy