just noticed the Ivy Lane Denizen discussion. I run him in my Ghave deck (in addition to Cathar's Crusade). It took me a while to convince myself to try him; and whenever I'm looking to make cuts, he's always one of the first cards I consider, but then I draw him and combo out and rethink my position. Crusade is certainly better in general if you only run one of the two (and like you said, your list is pretty tight), but if you have room/desire for redundancy, I think he is worth it. He can facilitate a lot of broken plays. I had forgotten about him, because I haven't played my Ghave deck in months, but now I'm going to have to consider running him in my Marath deck, too (grrrr...and I had just got it trimmed down to size ). Especially since I'm running Mana Echoes, which allows for infinite 1/1 tokens and colorless mana in combination with Denizen and Marath. Add in Doubling Season, and you get infinite infinite/infinites on top of an infinite/infinite commander (and probably a ton of smaller tokens, too, lol).
Speaking of Mana Echoes, it sounded by one of your comments above that you had probably tried it at some point, but just for anyone else that happens to be reading this for ideas, I would strongly recommend at least considering it. It can do some stupid stuff. The first game I played with Marath after building my first draft ended with me dealing well over 200 damage via combat facilitated in large part by Mana Echoes, in concert with Parallel Lives and a Chord of Calling for Craterhoof Behemoth. Echoes makes so much colorless mana so easily that I really wanted to add more mana sinks in order to abuse it (I'm almost tempted to run friggin' Gemstone Array to kill everyone at the table in one turn via huge Marath nukes [turning the excess colorless into colored mana to repeatedly cast him for more and more until you can one-shot people with direct damage]), but space is tight.
Ok, ok...I really should go to sleep now...must stop thinking about MtG....
So, the way I view Ivy Lane Denizen is that while he is a good source of redunancy, it's a good source of redundancy for combo Marath, and not necessarily for his other archetypes. Because I don't need his combo potential, as I'm not running the combos, I decided that I would rather use his spot for different card.
Now, unfortunately, Nekorin's Marath list isn't active any longer from what I can tell, so my go to deck list to send people looking for a combo list is a no go. What I may have to do for this primer is work out what cards are necessariy for some of the more popular archetypes, and write a section on it. Just because I don't run certain cards doesn't mean they aren't good with him. ^.^
Unfortunately, it will likely take me a while because the majority of my experiance is focused on the deck list in the primer. >.<
It's nice to see someone so enthusiastic about our resident Swiss Army knife though. ^.^
I finally found the time to dig through the M15 spoilers, now that the full set has been shown, so here's my thoughts on the cards that stood out in our colors:
WWhiteW
Ajani Steadfast - While his -2 could be useful, I think he's better suited towards a super friends deck.
Hushwing Gryff - It's Torpor Orb on a body, with flash. It shuts down most of our own shenanigans, so I believe this is a meta call. If you weren't considering ever running Torpor Orb, this card probably isn't going to cut it either.
Return to the Ranks - This could be sweet in the right build for Marath (weenie or mid-range aggro), but won't grab too much in this deck.
Soul of Theros - This card could be really strong. Currently I prefer my current pump effects, but I'm going to keep this card on my radar, and potentially find a spot to fit it in.
Spirit Bonds - I like the effect, but unfortunately most of our creatures are tokens and won't trigger it's effect.
RRedR
Act on Impulse - I like the effect, but this deck might have too many high end cards to really get it's full effect. It could be fantastic in lower curve builds, and especially decks without access to better card advantage in their colors.
Aggressive Mining - While this deck does ramp a lot, Marath by nature needs a lot of mana, so sacrificing lands can be crippling, if you don't draw into what you need.
Goblin Rabblemaster - I don't think I'll run this, but it could be a good token generator in the right deck.
GGreenG
Hornet Nest - Hornet Nest has a pretty sweet synergy with Marath, and with the anthems and pump effects I run. However, there are more efficient token makers out there, but this could be a good budget option, and good in +1/+1 counter synergy decks with Marath at the helm.
Nissa, Worldwaker - Most meta's run board wipes against token decks, so her most useful ability is her second +1. In a three color deck, you really need the ABUR duels and shocks to make full use of it, so Garruk Wildspeaker is going to be better in most situations where you want that untap effect.
Soul of Zendikar - 3/3 tokens are always nice, but compared to Marath it's ability is over-costed.
XArtifactX
Perilous Vault - A decent way to get rid of problem permanents, but I think white provides better options.
Soul of New Phyrexia - It could be a good card for dodging board wipes, but I think this is meta dependent. I prefer Avacyn, Angel of Hope to this for my own build.
I think that I'm going to pick up a copy of Soul of Theros, and see if it will make the cut, and where I would fit it in, but nothing else really stood out.
I finally found a spot for this little guy, and he hasn't disappointed so far. Fresh Meat is coming out of the deck, because my playgroup doesn't run nearly as many wrath effects as they did when he was added. I'm still working on finding a spot for Chords of Calling, however.
I'm also still drafting my Archetypes section of the primer, hopefully it will be finished and added in within the next couple of weeks. Any suggestions on cards that work in the following types of Marath decks would be greatly appreciated:
Core Cards
Token
Aggro (Aggro in general, this won't be specific to token/non-token builds)
Control
Combo
Burn (I have the least experience here, so I need the most help with this category)
I believe I have most of the cards down, but suggestions are always welcome.
I've decided where I'm going to put Chord. Pulling out a land was uncomfortable, so I narrowed my choice down to Expedition map. I like it so far, the convoke cost is extremely nice.
Despite my defense of Vexing Shusher a few posts back, there's actually fewer control decks in my group than there were when I originally included it. I still think it's a strong card, but Soul of Theros has been promising. It isn't as strong as Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, but it is a good secondary effect and gives me better chances of srawing into one of them at some point.
I've liked rout so far. Having the option to be instant speed later on in the game has been incredibly strong.
Have you thought of running Shared Animosity? I have a similar style Prossh build and it is pretty fantastic.
My sister has a similar Marath deck too, and I've noticed that she usually has 5-8 tokens out at a time. Shared Animosity pumps your guys similarly to Beastmaster Ascension and Soul of Theros. I think Animosity is the worst of the three, but the redundancy may be worth considering.
Have you thought of running Shared Animosity? I have a similar style Prossh build and it is pretty fantastic.
My sister has a similar Marath deck too, and I've noticed that she usually has 5-8 tokens out at a time. Shared Animosity pumps your guys similarly to Beastmaster Ascension and Soul of Theros. I think Animosity is the worst of the three, but the redundancy may be worth considering.
Shared Animosity is a little weird, because if you get a large mix of different tokens, it can really throw it off. Of course, if it works then I say run it. I personally like more unconditional pump spells. I do have quite a few pump spells as is currently (roughly 12 effects that pump every creature on board in some way), so I'm hesitant to add more.
Both Hero of Oxid Ridge and Gruul War Chant are a little lack luster compared to other cards I'm currently running. I do, however, believe that they are strong budget options. I may add them to that part of the primer.
I've actually run Hellrider before. It never made the list officially here, but usually it was win-more at the time. It could have been the pool of games I played it in, but at any point it came down late game, I could have just as easily won without it. I left it in for almost a month and didn't experience much else aside from a small outlier of games.
Hero of Bladehold is interesting. I've been thinking about this card for a while and I may sleeve it up for testing. That said, I am usually cautious about attacks. While my group is a control meta, there are chump blockers galore. For the same reason Hellrider was lackluster for me, I don't usually go all in on an attack until I start pushing for a win or I get a really early advantage because I try to draw out as many removal spells as I can before I start to commit for a win. That said, I'll try to set aside some time to test this card out thoroughly. ^.^
Your lack of Spike Weaver is disturbing. It buys so much it's not even funny. Marath and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes can reset his so he's particularly good here.
I see no reason to play Harmonic Sliver with no other slivers present now that Reclamation Sage has been printed. An additionally one power while still being Skullclamp-able while also not enabling potential random blowouts from surprise slivers a clear reason for a swap, in my opinion.
Are you using Krosan Grip to hate on artifact or enchantment instant win combos? If such combos aren't common I'd replace it with either Wear // Tear or Nature's Claim. Wear // Tear is does the same thing as Krosan Grip at a cheaper cost while also netting a 2-for-1 at the same cost. Nature's Claim is about as mana efficient as you can get in EDH.
Have you considered Earthcraft? It turns all of Marath's Tokens into mana dorks and does a really good job of ramping in token based strategies. It does, however, create infinite tokens when Cathars' Crusade or Doubling Season are out on the field if that's something you wish to avoid. I'm apparently incapable of using the control F function.
Your lack of Spike Weaver is disturbing. It buys so much it's not even funny. Marath and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes can reset his so he's particularly good here.
I've actually never needed Spike Weaver because the average win condition in my group is combo and not of the combat variety. There are a few aggro decks, but none that regularly get played against Marath because of the different levels of competitiveness. The only deck if concern I really play against is Uril, but my playgroup has become incredibly adapt at shutting that particular deck down with control. I may add it to the control archetype section though.
I see no reason to play Harmonic Sliver with no other slivers present now that Reclamation Sage has been printed. An additionally one power while still being Skullclamp-able while also not enabling potential random blowouts from surprise slivers a clear reason for a swap, in my opinion.
Without another sliver deck, they're essentially the same card (excluding mana cost differences) but this is a swap that I had planned to ninja update. My only copy is currently in Sachi however, because I have awful luck pulling the commons and uncommons that I want. I will go update the thread to prevent confusion about the swap when I get a minute, as it takes a little while I make sure I've changed all applicable text over.
Are you using Krosan Grip to hate on artifact or enchantment instant win combos? If such combos aren't common I'd replace it with either Wear // Tear or Nature's Claim. Wear // Tear is does the same thing as Krosan Grip at a cheaper cost while also netting a 2-for-1 at the same cost. Nature's Claim is about as mana efficient as you can get in EDH.
I believe I mentioned it somewhere in the primer, it's for Mind Over Matter-esque combos. The deck I face off against the most is Azami, Lady of Scrolls. It is also effective against a couple of other combos seen here
Have you considered Earthcraft? It turns all of Marath's Tokens into mana dorks and does a really good job of ramping in token based strategies. It does, however, create infinite tokens when Cathars' Crusade or Doubling Season are out on the field if that's something you wish to avoid. I'm apparently incapable of using the control F function.
While I may not be the most qualified person to ask about Marath combo, because I haven't dedicated nearly as much time to the nuances of it, I have tried to provide a quick stop guide to the types of cards combo decks want to use.
Have you thought of running Shared Animosity? I have a similar style Prossh build and it is pretty fantastic.
Shared Animosity is a little weird, because if you get a large mix of different tokens, it can really throw it off. Of course, if it works then I say run it. I personally like more unconditional pump spells. I do have quite a few pump spells as is currently (roughly 12 effects that pump every creature on board in some way), so I'm hesitant to add more.
I don't want to come off as pushy, but you should at least try Shared Animosity if nothing else. I agree that it gets sketchy with all the creature types, but Marath usually has a ton of elementals, and Avenger of Zendikar and Chancellor of the Forge bring in a ton of friends. Usually more then five, making it better than Beastmaster's Ascension in that vein. Situational, but definitely the greatest damage potential of all anthems.
I agree with the rest of your choices, and Hero of Bladehold is a bit meh in commander because of its frail body, but thought I'd give my 2 cents. I like the deck a lot, and I hope it plays well.
I don't want to come off as pushy, but you should at least try Shared Animosity if nothing else. I agree that it gets sketchy with all the creature types, but Marath usually has a ton of elementals, and Avenger of Zendikar and Chancellor of the Forge bring in a ton of friends. Usually more then five, making it better than Beastmaster's Ascension in that vein. Situational, but definitely the greatest damage potential of all anthems.
I agree with the rest of your choices, and Hero of Bladehold is a bit meh in commander because of its frail body, but thought I'd give my 2 cents. I like the deck a lot, and I hope it plays well.
I will compromise with this: I will test it but it most likely would compete with Beastmaster Ascension for a spot, because I don't want to overload with too many pump/anthem/etc. effects. I can't say for certain that it would be one over the other, but in most cases I see it being weaker than Beastmaster Ascension, if only because it is a high risk/high reward (high isn't the right word, but there isn't a saying with just risk/reward) card in some ways. Beastmaster's static effect prevents removal at the beginning of your attack step from effecting your entire combat, and especially in a deck with Doubling Season and tokens it goes live quickly, in one or two swings. However, I will test it. I do use a lot of time for testing however, because I have lousy luck with draws so it may be a while before I get back on this.
I appreciate the suggestions. It does play pretty well and often catches people by surprise because it's a really nice balance of control and aggression.
Edit: I also want to note that the second I claim the inability to pull a card... I end up with three. -.-
Reclamation Sage is updated in the list here, and I tracked down a secondary copy (and then some >.<) earlier this evening so it's now physically in the deck as well. The loss of Mirror Entity as conditional removal sucks, but my hope is that this is better. There isn't an official update due to the similarity of the cards.
Why not Use Ancient Tomb over Temple of the False God, if u draw the temple in your opening hand you have to mulligan it away, but with tomb you can get somewhere, plus the constant damage doesn't hurt since this is EDH
Why not Use Ancient Tomb over Temple of the False God, if u draw the temple in your opening hand you have to mulligan it away, but with tomb you can get somewhere, plus the constant damage doesn't hurt since this is EDH
It actually can do quite a bit of damage when you play in larger games (5-7 people has been common lately, though I do occasionally play 4 player, it's less often). I typically run Ancient Tomb in decks that want to be as fast as possible (Bruna) or decks that want the damage (Marchesa). That's not to say that it isn't an extremely good card, but I do think it has more value in something like combo Marath, were you want to cast and recast him quickly early on as well as drop your combo pieces as quickly as possible. Sometimes I'll just leave Marath up as a rattlesnake.
I will try the swap, but I think that the biggest difference between the two with my playstyle will be the damage.
You can also Play Birthing Pod and do tons of shenanigans.
If you look through my creatures, I have a pretty lousy pod chain, because most of the creatures want to stick around rather than having a toolbox of ETB and death trigger effects. Switching to a birthing pod deck is possible, but that's also a different deck. ^.^
Ancient Tomb - In most cases, it didn't make a huge difference having this in hand over Temple of th False God. I could sometimes get a ramp spell out earlier, but as far as casting and recasting Marath was concerned, it didn't speed me up at all. Sadly, some of ply playgroup have taken a liking to burn and punisher style decks, so in those games the damage over time did matter. I think it becomes much more valuable in a combo Marath deck, where everything needs to happen fast and early on. Not to say that it's a bad land (quite the opposite), I just don't think my playstyle with this build is fast enough to want it.
Shared Animosity - This card felt like a coin flip to me. On the occasion that I could focus on spitting out one type of token, it did well in most cases. A lot of times though, I wa ending up with sporadic numbers of different creature types, because I had more than one engine going, and I was primarily using Marath as control (because I had other engines going), and not spitting out multiple tokens like he normally tries to. When it worked, it worked wonders but when it didn't, it was kin of lackluster. I think it would work better in a deck that was more foccused on a couple specific types of creatures/tokens. The other downside it had was that it only increases power and not toughness, so tokens couldn't typically survive blocks, an the bonus became useless with Doran, the Siege Tower type effects. I think that it has potential, bu I prefer consistant effects like Beastmaster Ascension over it as a personal preference. ^.^
I'll try to do an actual set review this weekend, when I hopefully won't feel so sick.
For now, the card from Khans of Tarkir that I'm really considering testing is Hardened Scales. It doesn't work with tokens, but it's one mana to gain he ability to turn Marath into a win condition, by removing a counter from him to add two back on (must be done one at a time).
Now this is what I call a Primer! Very, very useful and easily accessible. Thanks for making it, it's going to come in handy!
Thank you. Just let me know if you need help at all.
On a side note, I haven't drawn Hardened Scales yet, so it may be a little while before I get back with an update on it. Goblinslide is another potential add, but I'm going to wait until I'm finished testing Hardened Scales before I play around with it.
So, just curious, but since this seems to be the best place to ask, I'll ask: Even with your Marath style being token-based, what do you think of playing some of the Abzan counter-lords? Dropping Abzan Falconer and distributing a few counters might be a good way to finish a game. Or perhaps using Abzan Battle Priest to get lifelink and use a swing from any counter creatures to bring yourself back from the brink? Trample might be useful as well, perhaps not with tokens, but if you've got a really big Marath, it could mean a dangerous attack that must be blocked. Then the last two would be first strike and reach, the first of which could be good if you're blocking or to make it a bit harder for enemies to block (can also turn combat into a nightmare if you've got mana up and enough counters on Marath to turn any potential block into a combat win), but reach seems by far the least useful.
So, I dunno if these are good enough reasons, but what do you think?
So, just curious, but since this seems to be the best place to ask, I'll ask: Even with your Marath style being token-based, what do you think of playing some of the Abzan counter-lords? Dropping Abzan Falconer and distributing a few counters might be a good way to finish a game. Or perhaps using Abzan Battle Priest to get lifelink and use a swing from any counter creatures to bring yourself back from the brink? Trample might be useful as well, perhaps not with tokens, but if you've got a really big Marath, it could mean a dangerous attack that must be blocked. Then the last two would be first strike and reach, the first of which could be good if you're blocking or to make it a bit harder for enemies to block (can also turn combat into a nightmare if you've got mana up and enough counters on Marath to turn any potential block into a combat win), but reach seems by far the least useful.
So, I dunno if these are good enough reasons, but what do you think?
For readers who may be curious, here's a list of all of the Abzan "counter lords":
All of them can be useful. I think it really just depends on the build and playstyle of the individual. If you use Marath's ability to put counters on other creatures often, there could be some very strong options for you. Personally, that's my least used ability. I almost always activate Marath to deal damage, or make a 1/1. But if your believe that you're going to use the counter ability often, then they're worth a shot. It works well with Cathars' Crusade and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Just keep in mind that a creature with outlast only puts counters on itself. ^.^
I've decided on what changes I'm going to make from Khans of Tarkir. I want to apologize again for not holding a set review for Khans, but being sick hit me pretty hart. I'll try to cover what I tested here though.
The counter lords, as mentioned in my post above, didn't do too much for me. It's the least used ability for Marath, and in a token swarm deck, quantity over quality (making more tokens as opposed to adding counters to creatures) is a stronger game plan. While they don't fit into this deck, I believe that they would be a fantastic addition to any Marath deck that focuses on +1/+1 counter synergies.
I also tested Goblinslide. While I do have a large number of non-creature spells, I am running enough creatures to make it a gamble. It isn't efficient enough warrant a spot.
Yavimaya Hollow is being pulled from the deck. There aren't enough creatures worth saving, and I'd rather include Strip Mine in it's place, to get rid of lands that are problems in my meta (Minamo, School at Waters Edge, Glacial Chasm, Gaea's Cradle, etc.).
Lastly, I've been playing with Hardened Scales for a while now, and I have to say: the card is truly crazy with Marath. It lets him come into play with an extra counter, and opens up another line of play much earlier than usual: general damage. Typically, that doesn't become an option until you've cast Marath a few times, or get Doubling Season out. However because Hardened Scales only costs G, it opens up that line of play much earlier. It is replacing Glare of Subdual. While I do love glare, I think that it's better in token decks like Rith, the Awakener where they can mass produce tokens in one turn, instead of relying on more of a build up like Marath does.
No Naya Charm? I've found this little instant to be really resourceful. The 3 damage is the weakest choice, sure, but can be relevant at times. Having a fog to fend early aggro, and an instant speed recollect, however is nice. Just tonight I used Naya Charm to return an opponents Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur to his hand in response to his The Mimeoplasm.
An interesting observation about Shared Animosity is that it combos well with the Mirror Entity that you just added, eliminating the different tokens problem. Overall though, I do think that Beastmaster Ascension heavily wins over it.
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So, the way I view Ivy Lane Denizen is that while he is a good source of redunancy, it's a good source of redundancy for combo Marath, and not necessarily for his other archetypes. Because I don't need his combo potential, as I'm not running the combos, I decided that I would rather use his spot for different card.
Now, unfortunately, Nekorin's Marath list isn't active any longer from what I can tell, so my go to deck list to send people looking for a combo list is a no go. What I may have to do for this primer is work out what cards are necessariy for some of the more popular archetypes, and write a section on it. Just because I don't run certain cards doesn't mean they aren't good with him. ^.^
Unfortunately, it will likely take me a while because the majority of my experiance is focused on the deck list in the primer. >.<
It's nice to see someone so enthusiastic about our resident Swiss Army knife though. ^.^
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
W White W
R Red R
G Green G
X Artifact X
I think that I'm going to pick up a copy of Soul of Theros, and see if it will make the cut, and where I would fit it in, but nothing else really stood out.
An update:
Out
Fresh Meat
In
Mirror Entity
I finally found a spot for this little guy, and he hasn't disappointed so far. Fresh Meat is coming out of the deck, because my playgroup doesn't run nearly as many wrath effects as they did when he was added. I'm still working on finding a spot for Chords of Calling, however.
I'm also still drafting my Archetypes section of the primer, hopefully it will be finished and added in within the next couple of weeks. Any suggestions on cards that work in the following types of Marath decks would be greatly appreciated:
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Unfortunately, I couldn't get the deck rages to work, so hopefully used boxes doesn't look too bad.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Out
Expedition Map
In
Chord of Calling
I've decided where I'm going to put Chord. Pulling out a land was uncomfortable, so I narrowed my choice down to Expedition map. I like it so far, the convoke cost is extremely nice.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Out
Vexing Susher
Wrath of God
In
Rout
Soul of Theros
Despite my defense of Vexing Shusher a few posts back, there's actually fewer control decks in my group than there were when I originally included it. I still think it's a strong card, but Soul of Theros has been promising. It isn't as strong as Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, but it is a good secondary effect and gives me better chances of srawing into one of them at some point.
I've liked rout so far. Having the option to be instant speed later on in the game has been incredibly strong.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
My sister has a similar Marath deck too, and I've noticed that she usually has 5-8 tokens out at a time. Shared Animosity pumps your guys similarly to Beastmaster Ascension and Soul of Theros. I think Animosity is the worst of the three, but the redundancy may be worth considering.
Things like Hero of Oxid Ridge, Hero of Bladehold, Gruul War Chant, and Hellrider may be worth a thought too
BGWKarador, Night of the Wood God
UBRMarchesa, The Black Rose
BRGProssh, Suicide Crew
Shared Animosity is a little weird, because if you get a large mix of different tokens, it can really throw it off. Of course, if it works then I say run it. I personally like more unconditional pump spells. I do have quite a few pump spells as is currently (roughly 12 effects that pump every creature on board in some way), so I'm hesitant to add more.
Both Hero of Oxid Ridge and Gruul War Chant are a little lack luster compared to other cards I'm currently running. I do, however, believe that they are strong budget options. I may add them to that part of the primer.
I've actually run Hellrider before. It never made the list officially here, but usually it was win-more at the time. It could have been the pool of games I played it in, but at any point it came down late game, I could have just as easily won without it. I left it in for almost a month and didn't experience much else aside from a small outlier of games.
Hero of Bladehold is interesting. I've been thinking about this card for a while and I may sleeve it up for testing. That said, I am usually cautious about attacks. While my group is a control meta, there are chump blockers galore. For the same reason Hellrider was lackluster for me, I don't usually go all in on an attack until I start pushing for a win or I get a really early advantage because I try to draw out as many removal spells as I can before I start to commit for a win. That said, I'll try to set aside some time to test this card out thoroughly. ^.^
Thank you for the suggestions.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I see no reason to play Harmonic Sliver with no other slivers present now that Reclamation Sage has been printed. An additionally one power while still being Skullclamp-able while also not enabling potential random blowouts from surprise slivers a clear reason for a swap, in my opinion.
Are you using Krosan Grip to hate on artifact or enchantment instant win combos? If such combos aren't common I'd replace it with either Wear // Tear or Nature's Claim. Wear // Tear is does the same thing as Krosan Grip at a cheaper cost while also netting a 2-for-1 at the same cost. Nature's Claim is about as mana efficient as you can get in EDH.
Have you considered Earthcraft? It turns all of Marath's Tokens into mana dorks and does a really good job of ramping in token based strategies. It does, however, create infinite tokens when Cathars' Crusade or Doubling Season are out on the field if that's something you wish to avoid.I'm apparently incapable of using the control F function.I've actually never needed Spike Weaver because the average win condition in my group is combo and not of the combat variety. There are a few aggro decks, but none that regularly get played against Marath because of the different levels of competitiveness. The only deck if concern I really play against is Uril, but my playgroup has become incredibly adapt at shutting that particular deck down with control. I may add it to the control archetype section though.
Without another sliver deck, they're essentially the same card (excluding mana cost differences) but this is a swap that I had planned to ninja update. My only copy is currently in Sachi however, because I have awful luck pulling the commons and uncommons that I want. I will go update the thread to prevent confusion about the swap when I get a minute, as it takes a little while I make sure I've changed all applicable text over.
I believe I mentioned it somewhere in the primer, it's for Mind Over Matter-esque combos. The deck I face off against the most is Azami, Lady of Scrolls. It is also effective against a couple of other combos seen here
While I may not be the most qualified person to ask about Marath combo, because I haven't dedicated nearly as much time to the nuances of it, I have tried to provide a quick stop guide to the types of cards combo decks want to use.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I don't want to come off as pushy, but you should at least try Shared Animosity if nothing else. I agree that it gets sketchy with all the creature types, but Marath usually has a ton of elementals, and Avenger of Zendikar and Chancellor of the Forge bring in a ton of friends. Usually more then five, making it better than Beastmaster's Ascension in that vein. Situational, but definitely the greatest damage potential of all anthems.
I agree with the rest of your choices, and Hero of Bladehold is a bit meh in commander because of its frail body, but thought I'd give my 2 cents. I like the deck a lot, and I hope it plays well.
BGWKarador, Night of the Wood God
UBRMarchesa, The Black Rose
BRGProssh, Suicide Crew
I will compromise with this: I will test it but it most likely would compete with Beastmaster Ascension for a spot, because I don't want to overload with too many pump/anthem/etc. effects. I can't say for certain that it would be one over the other, but in most cases I see it being weaker than Beastmaster Ascension, if only because it is a high risk/high reward (high isn't the right word, but there isn't a saying with just risk/reward) card in some ways. Beastmaster's static effect prevents removal at the beginning of your attack step from effecting your entire combat, and especially in a deck with Doubling Season and tokens it goes live quickly, in one or two swings. However, I will test it. I do use a lot of time for testing however, because I have lousy luck with draws so it may be a while before I get back on this.
I appreciate the suggestions. It does play pretty well and often catches people by surprise because it's a really nice balance of control and aggression.
Edit: I also want to note that the second I claim the inability to pull a card... I end up with three. -.-
Reclamation Sage is updated in the list here, and I tracked down a secondary copy (and then some >.<) earlier this evening so it's now physically in the deck as well. The loss of Mirror Entity as conditional removal sucks, but my hope is that this is better. There isn't an official update due to the similarity of the cards.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
BGWKarador, Night of the Wood God
UBRMarchesa, The Black Rose
BRGProssh, Suicide Crew
Will do. Like I said, I try to be thorough so it will take me a little while to test but I'll update here when I'm done.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
It actually can do quite a bit of damage when you play in larger games (5-7 people has been common lately, though I do occasionally play 4 player, it's less often). I typically run Ancient Tomb in decks that want to be as fast as possible (Bruna) or decks that want the damage (Marchesa). That's not to say that it isn't an extremely good card, but I do think it has more value in something like combo Marath, were you want to cast and recast him quickly early on as well as drop your combo pieces as quickly as possible. Sometimes I'll just leave Marath up as a rattlesnake.
I will try the swap, but I think that the biggest difference between the two with my playstyle will be the damage.
If you look through my creatures, I have a pretty lousy pod chain, because most of the creatures want to stick around rather than having a toolbox of ETB and death trigger effects. Switching to a birthing pod deck is possible, but that's also a different deck. ^.^
Thanks for the feedback though. ^.^
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Ancient Tomb - In most cases, it didn't make a huge difference having this in hand over Temple of th False God. I could sometimes get a ramp spell out earlier, but as far as casting and recasting Marath was concerned, it didn't speed me up at all. Sadly, some of ply playgroup have taken a liking to burn and punisher style decks, so in those games the damage over time did matter. I think it becomes much more valuable in a combo Marath deck, where everything needs to happen fast and early on. Not to say that it's a bad land (quite the opposite), I just don't think my playstyle with this build is fast enough to want it.
Shared Animosity - This card felt like a coin flip to me. On the occasion that I could focus on spitting out one type of token, it did well in most cases. A lot of times though, I wa ending up with sporadic numbers of different creature types, because I had more than one engine going, and I was primarily using Marath as control (because I had other engines going), and not spitting out multiple tokens like he normally tries to. When it worked, it worked wonders but when it didn't, it was kin of lackluster. I think it would work better in a deck that was more foccused on a couple specific types of creatures/tokens. The other downside it had was that it only increases power and not toughness, so tokens couldn't typically survive blocks, an the bonus became useless with Doran, the Siege Tower type effects. I think that it has potential, bu I prefer consistant effects like Beastmaster Ascension over it as a personal preference. ^.^
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
For now, the card from Khans of Tarkir that I'm really considering testing is Hardened Scales. It doesn't work with tokens, but it's one mana to gain he ability to turn Marath into a win condition, by removing a counter from him to add two back on (must be done one at a time).
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Thank you. Just let me know if you need help at all.
On a side note, I haven't drawn Hardened Scales yet, so it may be a little while before I get back with an update on it. Goblinslide is another potential add, but I'm going to wait until I'm finished testing Hardened Scales before I play around with it.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
So, I dunno if these are good enough reasons, but what do you think?
For readers who may be curious, here's a list of all of the Abzan "counter lords":
Abzan Battle Priest
Abzan Falconer
Ainok Bond-Kin
Tuskguard Captain
Longshot Squad
All of them can be useful. I think it really just depends on the build and playstyle of the individual. If you use Marath's ability to put counters on other creatures often, there could be some very strong options for you. Personally, that's my least used ability. I almost always activate Marath to deal damage, or make a 1/1. But if your believe that you're going to use the counter ability often, then they're worth a shot. It works well with Cathars' Crusade and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Just keep in mind that a creature with outlast only puts counters on itself. ^.^
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Out
Yavimaya Hollow
Glare of Subdual
In
Strip Mine
Hardened Scales
I've decided on what changes I'm going to make from Khans of Tarkir. I want to apologize again for not holding a set review for Khans, but being sick hit me pretty hart. I'll try to cover what I tested here though.
The counter lords, as mentioned in my post above, didn't do too much for me. It's the least used ability for Marath, and in a token swarm deck, quantity over quality (making more tokens as opposed to adding counters to creatures) is a stronger game plan. While they don't fit into this deck, I believe that they would be a fantastic addition to any Marath deck that focuses on +1/+1 counter synergies.
I also tested Goblinslide. While I do have a large number of non-creature spells, I am running enough creatures to make it a gamble. It isn't efficient enough warrant a spot.
Yavimaya Hollow is being pulled from the deck. There aren't enough creatures worth saving, and I'd rather include Strip Mine in it's place, to get rid of lands that are problems in my meta (Minamo, School at Waters Edge, Glacial Chasm, Gaea's Cradle, etc.).
Lastly, I've been playing with Hardened Scales for a while now, and I have to say: the card is truly crazy with Marath. It lets him come into play with an extra counter, and opens up another line of play much earlier than usual: general damage. Typically, that doesn't become an option until you've cast Marath a few times, or get Doubling Season out. However because Hardened Scales only costs G, it opens up that line of play much earlier. It is replacing Glare of Subdual. While I do love glare, I think that it's better in token decks like Rith, the Awakener where they can mass produce tokens in one turn, instead of relying on more of a build up like Marath does.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
GRWort, Control
UBDralnu, Reanimator