The new rule change affects control players primarily. Zur hard control takes a hit; my buddy could consistently tutor for Terminus to get rid of problematic board states. Now the generals will come back. Terminus is no longer a back breaker. Derevi combo becomes more consistent with tuck taken out of the picture and everyone else in my meta grows stronger at Zur's expense.
I was going to squeeze in Pestermite as a backup win condition. I may still do so. My line of thinking is Pestermite can stall voltron generals like Zur or Kaalia while doubling as a combo piece with Deadeye and a mana source. It was a contingency plan for the loss of Derevi to theft or tuck. Flash makes it useful at any stage of the game. At worse its a chump blocker but while its on the field opponents must respect it as a combo piece. Of course, I'd put Bribery back with it too.
A lot of people have been saying that the rules change will make a Derevi ban more likely. What are your thoughts on that?
Also, my friend said that you said something, I'm assuming on Reddit, about a list by Glix on Tappedout. I looked at it, and it's a lot different from yours. What's your analysis of each list's pros and cons?
Quite honestly I have no idea what the RC will do. As good as Derevi is, she still sits one level below Hermit Druid combo. Derevi is not unbeatable; I've been winning a scant 15%-20% of the games in my 4 player meta (a disproportionate amount of removal and disruption comes my way). I guess I will say that the odds of Derevi getting banned did not go down. Up? Derevi is the definition of a build-around commander. If we apply the same reasoning the RC gives for allowing HD to float around, Derevi may be safe. However they banned Erayo, who was also a build-around commander. So I suspect the RC does not follow a philosophy but simply wields the banhammer based off personal experiences. So if no highly tuned Derevi goes their way we will likely be fine.
Glix's list is built for a quick win. His list has no plan B. He doesn't run enough draw or control to be a factor mid/late game. Card quality and card advantage is sacrificed in an all-in approach towards locking the table. If he cannot lock the table early he's playing from a distinct disadvantage. That said, Glix's list has a very coherent game plan and each card is like a dagger in the heart against a player holding no removal the first few turns. I'd say after the 3rd lock piece resolves the game is over. It's a very strong list. And extremely difficult to deal with on a short table, 3 or less players. But more than that and his pieces will have trouble sticking. My meta runs a lot of answers so such a plan is not feasible. I had a similar all in combo approach for a turn 3 win but it failed for the same reason: card quality and card advantage. When the table knows when and how you are trying to go off everyone literally sits there waiting for you with answers in hand. I go for it. I get stopped and with no draw engine I'm down a lot of cards with few options. My card quality was low so while bad things happened after that there wasn't much I could do. Stuff like Contamination + Bitterblossom, Blood Moon, Cataclysm, and etc hit while I sat there, or game-winning combos hit and I was usually unable to stop them. So I had to tweak the list for a longer game. And afterwards I was much more competitive.
Knight is too slow. For the same reason I cut Fauna Shaman. Speed is essential. 1 turn is often the difference between winning and losing. To get to Homeward Path, High Market, Cradle, or Lotus Vale we want the effect immediately not 2 turns later. Beast Within is solid. As a personal preference I don't play it. I replaced it with Fracturing Gust but with the amount of enchantments and artifacts we're running it's often harmful and I took it out a little while ago. Using Null Rod and Stony Silence to cut off opponents mana rocks has been a more effective strategy. All my friends run heavy artifact ramp and when either hit play it really slows them down. This list runs several as well but we have alternative sources so the impact is less hurtful. Craterhoof requires a couple of token producers like Brimaz, Deranged Hermit, Master of Waves, or Avenger to be lethal. I'm not sure it's a direction the list should go down. It's a lot of slots and my feeling is it's win more. Craterhoof requires a board. But if I have a board, I should be able to get to my win cons and win
I'm always happy to hear input. Suggestions which I took and found helpful in the past were Market Festival, Dawn's Reflection, and Sakura-Tribe Scout. Gaddock Teeg cuts off Gilded Lotus and the 2 enchantments above. Which are 3/4 of our combo wincons, the last one being Bloom Tender. With enough sac outlets I'd probably still put Teeg in but as the list sits now I don't think he is a fit. Land Tax gets basic lands of which we have very few. Mystic Snake at 2/3 cmc is good but requiring us to hold 4 open makes it unreliable. I think Voidmage Prodigy is a better option because he is cheaper. Best of luck in your games.
Just keep in mind smashing your friends repeatedly will make you the primary target of a lot of hate. Early disruption and removal is the only way to slow us down.
Over the last few weeks I've been trying to work around the problem our swords have with Null Rod and Stony Silence. Both are extremely effective. But they conflict with each other. The swords give us board control and generate value. Null Rod and SS read, 'while in play opponents cannot win (for my meta).' 2 of the better options to get around the conflict are Venser the Sojourner and Stonhewer Giant. But they are a bit high on cost and limited in versatility. Of the 2 choices Venser is probably stronger. He can hit Gilded Drake, and other ETB creatures to generate value, can pitch to FoW, is discounted with Sunscape Familiar or Grand Arbiter, and is antitheft. So what can I cut...
Your observations on the deck's weakpoints are actually spot on. After I dropped my land count from 37 down to 32 Skyshroud Ranger was cut and Sakura-Tribe became much more marginal, he's only good if we have 3 lands in an opening hand or if we got a draw engine online. Idyllic Tutor gets to an enchantment but not an answer. As a tutor we want it to give us access to both answers and wincons. At 3 cmc it also isn't cheap. I just got to figure out what to replace it with. Academy Rector is not a good choice: he costs more, needs a sac outlet, and can only get an enchantment. Tangle Wire makes sense, I'll probably give it a try. Aura Shards and Trygon Predator are too slow in my meta. Zur runs 25 artifacts. Mimeo 10-15. Both of their win conditions rely on artifact activated abilities. Neither can win with Null Rod or SS in play. I think I want to put in 3 cards which can smooth out the problems our artifacts have with them. If that doesn't work out I'll jettison the swords package and try a token strategy with Craterhoof as a secondary finisher. I'll have something up Friday. Elesh Norn and Kamahl don't usually get played together unless we have infinite mana. The sequence is first play mana combo piece, Derevi, then play Fierce Empath into Deadeye, go infinite, then get Elesh Norn and Kamahl. It's preferable to play Fierce Empath into Deadeye with 2 open after to go infinite the same turn. Deadeye won't survive on the table
Well, tentative list up on Deckstats. I cut Sakura-Tribe, Stony Silence, Idyllic Tutor. Added Holistic Wisdom, Venser, Craterhoof. Late-game upgrades. Tangle Wire is good early game. It can hurt us though, if we don't have a fairly explosive starting hand. And mid-late game I'm questioning its effectiveness without more stax cards.
After some tinkering I settled on Venser, the Sojourner, Capsize, and an Island to support the heavier blue. In more developed metas artifact acceleration and wincons are prevalent and just to slow these guys down artifact hate must be part of our strategy. Stony Silence and Null Rod are extremely effective in this regard. While they shut down 10% of our list being able to paralyze/significantly slow down full power, optimized opponents is a worthwhile exchange. To lessen their impact on our list I've added Venser and Capsize. Capsize can buy time and also double as an infinite mana outlet. In addition to making SS and Null Rod one-sided, Venser can buy time with tricks like exiling Derevi and putting her into the command zone - flashing her in to tap Zur at the beginning of Zur's combat phase, exiling our Gilded Drake, returning stolen permanents, generating value with ETB creatures, reset upkeep on Mystic Remora, or in the rare case where the ultimate goes off, bounce lots of stuff. The early game got worse but overall we still open very quickly and we have more tools to make sure opponents can't catch up.
Played about 8 games yesterday, 3 handed vs Zur and Derevi. Necro resolved, Zur won. The games the Derevis won, each game was a drawn out, grind. Deadeye was never a factor. I think that is the optimal strategy Bant has going for it: Go for the lightning start, neutralize opponents' mana and resources, get a draw engine online, gain control of the board, and grind down our opponents. The combo option is too hard to protect. There was one game yesterday which stuck out in my mind. Turn 1 Zur played 2 rocks and a Spellbook. My Derevi friend played Mana Crypt and Timetwister. The play pretty much gifted the game to Zur - Derevi isn't going to beat Zur 1vs1, which was what it was after the gods did not smile on my luck. Zur played a T2 Zur and protected it a round to resolve Necro for 30. I casted Timetwister to drag the game out but Contamination came down next turn, followed by Monastary Mentor and the outcome was never in doubt. Neither of us Derevi's had colored mana. So I'll be reworking the list. Worth noting was Null Rod. It did good work. The one game I won Null Rod kept Zur in check, and I think it is critical towards stopping the accelerated starts Zur goes for. Tuck was never a factor in any of our games. There were a few points in the games where I think Zur would have previously tutored for Terminus and tucked our generals but decided not to in light of the new rule change. I did see Gemstone Caverns once in an opening hand. It allowed for a great start: T0 Caverns, T1 land, Mana Crypt, Tempt with Discovery for 2 lands, Mystic Remora. It was 2 on 1 after that and eventually my Derevi friend prevailed with an overloaded Cyclonic Rift and a Prophet of Kruphix.
Have you tried chancellor of the annex? Been following the thread and working on a Jund stax list myself. I really enjoy you list and the card choices in it. I found that making someone trip over early T1 mana (explosive Zur draws for example) can be the difference between winning and losing. Jund can't run it, but seems like it would be decent in Bant/Derevi lists. Late game it is expensive, but still relevant for taxing.
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
The WWW on Annex is tough. The largest drawback is it doesn't entirely shut people down early (it buys 1 turn) and it's a dead card in our hand. Late game the tax is negligible unless we're going with a heavy stax strategy. If the cmc was more friendly I'd be inclined to run it. But 7 is too much, and I suspect Annex isn't strong enough to justify a spot. I'd rate Rest in Peace or Llawan as superior options over Annex. I prefer Llawan, Cephalid Empress. She bounces and stops Zur from being played as early as T2 and more likely T3. Theft is also a big issue with Derevi; we can't function without our general. If Derevi is stolen Llawan bounces her back to our hands. Llawan stops Gilded Drake, Glen Elendra, Mimeo, and all sorts of bad creatures in my meta from being played. She will buy us more time than Annex against Zur. The largest challenge in my meta is dealing with Contamination. It's such a pain. After adding alternative, nonland mana sources to deal with it we're better able to play through it. The list flows well too. But when I strip out these alternative sources for removal, or more of an aggro or stax strategy, our speed drops by quite a bit, and the flow gets clunky. I ordered a foil Llawan, will test her out for a bit. Will look at replacing Grand Arbiter or Bane of Progress. Venser, the Sojourner was too slow and didn't do enough to keep a spot. Replacing him with Chain of Vapor.
Edit: More changes. For the long game I added Masked Admirers and Fauna Shaman as a value engine. Also added Stonehewer Giant with Sword of Light and Shadow to bring back Deadeye or our creatures as many times as needed.
The swords offer very nice mid and late game board control. The main problem I observed is our creatures die. Given the choice of holding removal for a yet to be casted Zur or killing off my Bloom Tender or Aven Mindcensor, my critters eat removal. I've held off on including a recursion package to bring back our guys for a long time because I realize it's slow. However I don't feel like we have a choice. It's not possible to grind out games when we have no recursion engine available to us. So I've setup a loop for creatures. We get to SoLaS. They kill our creatures, we bring them back. They kill SoLaS, we get it back with Academy Ruins. There are about 4 ways to get to Academy Ruins and numerous ways to get to SoLaS. We can almost always count on Derevi being able to swing, so I feel confident this should strengthen our mid and late games.
Masked Admirers was very effective in my Azusa. He costs GG to return to hand after we pitch him to Fauna Shaman or Survival while casting the creature we tutor for. It's basically an extra GG per turn to cast a creature of our choice from our library. In addition once we go infinite we can play Masked Admirers and blink him with Deadeye to draw our whole library. Similarly Capsize offers decent value, can bounce Null Rod or Stony Silence, and is an infinite mana outlet. With our recursion engine getting to Fauna Shaman or Survival should be high on our priorities after accelerating out. Then pitch to get Admirers, get to Prophet, and with Prophet we can play a creature every opponent's turn. Or have fun with Capsize. Another option is adding an Eldrazi so we can pitch it to reshuffle our graveyard. This is probably faster than SoLaS to bring back dead guys, but if Fauna Shaman dies SoLaS is needed.
I've emphasized the early game for about the last year and I think that direction is near a dead-end. There's no question in my mind that I must upgrade the mid/late game. I've added a lot of cards to slow Zur down: Llawan, Chain of Vapor, Capsize, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and Extract. I think you're neglecting to consider that we can get multiple activations out of Stonehewer or Fauna Shaman. Stonehewer Giant is slow, but he can fetch 2 swords before swinging if we flash Derevi in targetting it in response to an activation. So while we do have to wait a round once we can activate them we can go bonkers mid game. That's what makes them decent choices in my opinion. If they kill Prophet we bring him back until they run out of removal and combo off. Masked Admirers is like Squee. If nothing else we can play him to draw a card. Kozilek might be too costly at 10, we can get to 8 but 10 is a bit high. I'm not too worried about theft with Homeward Path, Derevi's flash ability, or our bounce. Anyhow I'll test this configuration in the next few weeks when my friends and I can get together for some games.
We're running 31 lands, 4 rocks (not including Mox Diamond or Gilded Lotus), 3 dorks and Lotus Cobra, and Carpet of Flowers (not including Market Festival or Dawn's Reflection. By turn 3 we should see an average of 3 lands, one of which should be a fetch, and 1 of those alternative sources. If we can get a draw engine online we should be good. 37 was way too many I got flooded a lot. 32 is around the sweet spot
I play against Zur who doesn't really run creatures. So attacks getting in are never a problem. The 3 swords should also be quite effective in getting through blockers. How can Masked Admirers be bad if you were happy with Fauna Shaman? The first creature I'd activate Fauna Shaman for is Masked Admirers. Get Bloom Tender next if you don't have enough mana and pay 2 more to return Masked Admirers to hand. Venser did not do enough in the games I drew him
Added more support cards to assist in the mid/late game. Removed Island for Flooded Grove, Crop Rotation for Sylvan Scrying, Chrome Mox for Muddle the Mixture. Game plan should be to get to Fauna Shaman/Survival, get Masked Admirers, get to and play Prophet (Bloom Tender first if Mana is short), then go wild with Glen Elendra, Hokori, and Edric.
Any thoughts on Sage of Fables? More card draw with Derevi and friends and takes Glen from annoying to disgusting.
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"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
As a draw engine she takes a lot of work. Needs a sac outlet. Not bad though. Could serve as an infinte mana outlet to draw our library. Bloom Tender, Ashnod's Altar, Sage, Derevi. Glen Elendra, Sage, and Altar is good too. 2 slots required.
How do you feel with the 31 lands? I'm running a similar mana-denial/lockdown strategy (Jund) so I'm trying to find a sweetspot between lands, dorks and rocks. ATM I have 6 dorks, oracle of mil daya, thunderscape familiar, 1 enchantment, 2 mana-making walkers, 4 ramp spells, and 6 rocks (with 32 lands). Granted I'm doing jund-y shenanigans (blood moon sorryimnotsorry) and moderate LD, but Idk if 32 lands is more than enough? Are you cool with 31 and would you feel comfortable with even 30?
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
What are you using for draw? As long as you can draw into your acceleration you should be good. I don't have the guts to go lower than 31; that's basically seeing 3 lands by the end of T3. I'm fairly satisfied at 31. If I went lower I'd need more dorks but my mid and late game would suffer. If there were more cards like Cataclysm and Balance I'd be tempted to go down that road. In regards to your list ramp spells don't synergize with LD; not sure if I'd play anything other than Crop Rotation or Tempt so as to get to Cradle. Contamination, Blood Moon, Nether Void, Stranglehold. All fun cards. Treasonous Ogre, if he's not in your list take a look at him he did good work in my Wort and Animar. You don't care about the life if he can get you to a lock.
Oh I got you on the fun cards only one I took out was stranglehold as it was a little too slow and didn't know if it hit too many decks. My current "draw" is liliana vess, demonic tutor, sylvan library and a survival (can get dorks).
As for the LD and ramp, I guess it is moreso a color-fixing thing, rather than trying to outramp opponents. I usually try to get a dork t1, blood moon T2 and use the ramp spell to fix non-red colors so I don't have to rely on drawing into them. I also ordered a treasonous ogre earlier and was really thinking of putting him in....So you think my dork/rock/etc is good enough to run with 31 or 32 lands? Really wanted to shove in some more stax effects but didn't wanna risk getting land screwed, even though I have a lot of dorks. I also have some fatties on my top end for using dork mana later like sheoldred and some titans....
edit: In any case thank you very much for the help and advice! Also sry for not answering sooner, was at work lol
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Dorks and rocks with 31 or 32 lands is sufficient upon you running enough draw to keep feeding your hand. You've got to be able to get to a draw engine consistently by turn 4 or it's not going to be a good game. Because that's when you stop putting down lands usually. So to figure out if you have enough draw add up your tutors 3 or less cmc and the number of draw engines you run at 3 or less cmc and if the number you get is 10 or more you should be good.
I ripped out the swords package. My thoughts are the swords are powerful mid and late game but bad early game. We usually lose a turn playing a sword. In addition getting around Stony Silence and Null Rod without slowing down the list could not be done. I think a better strategy is to focus on Prophet and Survival/Fauna Shaman. With all the bounce I run it makes sense if we try to fit in Jin-Gitaxias with Loyal Retainers. Bounce stuff, make them cast or discard. Getting out Elesh Norn early with Retainers is also extremely helpful. Being able to apply more pressure early improves our list. We can now apply early pressure to opponents on a variety of fronts: neutralizing their artifacts, orbing their lands, clearing their small creatures, limiting their tutoring, and attacking their hand.
It's too glass cannon for my taste. Your win condition is Derevi in play with 2-3 lock pieces and a board. It won't get there in my meta and it doesn't have the card quality to compete in the mid/late game.
Played 7 or so games with this configuration yesterday against Zur, Prossh, and Derevi. 3 games were decided before the end of T4. I actually resolved an early Survival one game and got a T3 Loyal Retainers into Jin-Gitaxias but Prossh still comboed off. In hindsight Elesh Norn was a better choice. I do like the Loyal Retainers package. It plays smoothly. I'll keep testing it. My favorite game of the 7 was the 4th game. T1 Breeding Pool, Lotus Petal, Lotus Cobra. T2 Gaea's Cradle, Derevi untapping Cradle, Swing with Cobra untapping Breeding Pool, Rhystic Study. T2 Derevi friend plays Gilded Drake stealing my Derevi. I draw 4 cards through Rhystic Study that round. T3 I play a fetch, Mana Vault, Market Festival, Survival and Prophet of Kruphix. And in the proceeding upkeeps of my opponents' turns: first upkeep pitch Masked Admirers to get Gilded Drake stealing back my Derevi while paying GG to get back Masked Admirers, next upkeep I bounce Zur after pitching Admirers to get Venser getting back Masked Admirers, then next upkeep I pitched Admirers to get in Glen Elendra getting back Admirers, and on my turn Deadeye combo T4 ftw.
I may cut Kamahl it just doesn't seem necessary to play him. Other cards which are on the cutting block: Capsize, Grand Arbiter, Llawan, Sakura Tribe. Other than Sakura Tribe, they just aren't fast enough. I also don't have enough lands to make proper use of Sakura Tribe. One game I was terribly color screwed. I went down to 5 cards with Homeward Path, High Market, Sylvan Library, Mana Crypt, and Elesh Norn. Next land I drew was Flagstones. Then Flooded Grove... needless to say I didn't do much that game but fortunately Prossh put us out of our misery around T6. The games were pretty fun. Contamination came out twice if I recall but my mana base survived. Zur never got to swing. I feel 30 lands is doable but it can be very dangerous if we don't hit colored mana. Going to add back Weathered Wayfarer, and look at adding more control elements
I was going to squeeze in Pestermite as a backup win condition. I may still do so. My line of thinking is Pestermite can stall voltron generals like Zur or Kaalia while doubling as a combo piece with Deadeye and a mana source. It was a contingency plan for the loss of Derevi to theft or tuck. Flash makes it useful at any stage of the game. At worse its a chump blocker but while its on the field opponents must respect it as a combo piece. Of course, I'd put Bribery back with it too.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Also, my friend said that you said something, I'm assuming on Reddit, about a list by Glix on Tappedout. I looked at it, and it's a lot different from yours. What's your analysis of each list's pros and cons?
Glix's list is built for a quick win. His list has no plan B. He doesn't run enough draw or control to be a factor mid/late game. Card quality and card advantage is sacrificed in an all-in approach towards locking the table. If he cannot lock the table early he's playing from a distinct disadvantage. That said, Glix's list has a very coherent game plan and each card is like a dagger in the heart against a player holding no removal the first few turns. I'd say after the 3rd lock piece resolves the game is over. It's a very strong list. And extremely difficult to deal with on a short table, 3 or less players. But more than that and his pieces will have trouble sticking. My meta runs a lot of answers so such a plan is not feasible. I had a similar all in combo approach for a turn 3 win but it failed for the same reason: card quality and card advantage. When the table knows when and how you are trying to go off everyone literally sits there waiting for you with answers in hand. I go for it. I get stopped and with no draw engine I'm down a lot of cards with few options. My card quality was low so while bad things happened after that there wasn't much I could do. Stuff like Contamination + Bitterblossom, Blood Moon, Cataclysm, and etc hit while I sat there, or game-winning combos hit and I was usually unable to stop them. So I had to tweak the list for a longer game. And afterwards I was much more competitive.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Over the last few weeks I've been trying to work around the problem our swords have with Null Rod and Stony Silence. Both are extremely effective. But they conflict with each other. The swords give us board control and generate value. Null Rod and SS read, 'while in play opponents cannot win (for my meta).' 2 of the better options to get around the conflict are Venser the Sojourner and Stonhewer Giant. But they are a bit high on cost and limited in versatility. Of the 2 choices Venser is probably stronger. He can hit Gilded Drake, and other ETB creatures to generate value, can pitch to FoW, is discounted with Sunscape Familiar or Grand Arbiter, and is antitheft. So what can I cut...
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
Edit: More changes. For the long game I added Masked Admirers and Fauna Shaman as a value engine. Also added Stonehewer Giant with Sword of Light and Shadow to bring back Deadeye or our creatures as many times as needed.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Masked Admirers was very effective in my Azusa. He costs GG to return to hand after we pitch him to Fauna Shaman or Survival while casting the creature we tutor for. It's basically an extra GG per turn to cast a creature of our choice from our library. In addition once we go infinite we can play Masked Admirers and blink him with Deadeye to draw our whole library. Similarly Capsize offers decent value, can bounce Null Rod or Stony Silence, and is an infinite mana outlet. With our recursion engine getting to Fauna Shaman or Survival should be high on our priorities after accelerating out. Then pitch to get Admirers, get to Prophet, and with Prophet we can play a creature every opponent's turn. Or have fun with Capsize. Another option is adding an Eldrazi so we can pitch it to reshuffle our graveyard. This is probably faster than SoLaS to bring back dead guys, but if Fauna Shaman dies SoLaS is needed.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I play against Zur who doesn't really run creatures. So attacks getting in are never a problem. The 3 swords should also be quite effective in getting through blockers. How can Masked Admirers be bad if you were happy with Fauna Shaman? The first creature I'd activate Fauna Shaman for is Masked Admirers. Get Bloom Tender next if you don't have enough mana and pay 2 more to return Masked Admirers to hand. Venser did not do enough in the games I drew him
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
As for the LD and ramp, I guess it is moreso a color-fixing thing, rather than trying to outramp opponents. I usually try to get a dork t1, blood moon T2 and use the ramp spell to fix non-red colors so I don't have to rely on drawing into them. I also ordered a treasonous ogre earlier and was really thinking of putting him in....So you think my dork/rock/etc is good enough to run with 31 or 32 lands? Really wanted to shove in some more stax effects but didn't wanna risk getting land screwed, even though I have a lot of dorks. I also have some fatties on my top end for using dork mana later like sheoldred and some titans....
edit: In any case thank you very much for the help and advice! Also sry for not answering sooner, was at work lol
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
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RIP Twin
I ripped out the swords package. My thoughts are the swords are powerful mid and late game but bad early game. We usually lose a turn playing a sword. In addition getting around Stony Silence and Null Rod without slowing down the list could not be done. I think a better strategy is to focus on Prophet and Survival/Fauna Shaman. With all the bounce I run it makes sense if we try to fit in Jin-Gitaxias with Loyal Retainers. Bounce stuff, make them cast or discard. Getting out Elesh Norn early with Retainers is also extremely helpful. Being able to apply more pressure early improves our list. We can now apply early pressure to opponents on a variety of fronts: neutralizing their artifacts, orbing their lands, clearing their small creatures, limiting their tutoring, and attacking their hand.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Creature
0 Dryad Arbor
0 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Arbor Elf
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Cursecatcher
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Judge's Familiar
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Bloom Tender
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Glowrider
3 Loyal Retainers
3 Patron Wizard
3 Selvala, Explorer Returned
3 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
4 Captain Sisay
4 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
4 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Sakashima the Impostor
5 Prophet of Kruphix
6 Consecrated Sphinx
7 Chancellor of the Annex
7 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
10 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Root Maze
2 Stasis
2 Stony Silence
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
3 Aura of Silence
3 Aura Shards
3 Rhystic Study
4 Rising Waters
Artifact
0 Chrome Mox
0 Lotus Petal
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
1 Æther Vial
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Null Rod
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Winter Orb
3 Static Orb
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Birthing Pod
Sorcery
1x Green Sun's Zenith
Instant
0 Summoner's Pact
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
2 Eladamri's Call
3x Chord of Calling
Planeswalker
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
Land
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Thran Quarry
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forsaken City
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Brushland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I may cut Kamahl it just doesn't seem necessary to play him. Other cards which are on the cutting block: Capsize, Grand Arbiter, Llawan, Sakura Tribe. Other than Sakura Tribe, they just aren't fast enough. I also don't have enough lands to make proper use of Sakura Tribe. One game I was terribly color screwed. I went down to 5 cards with Homeward Path, High Market, Sylvan Library, Mana Crypt, and Elesh Norn. Next land I drew was Flagstones. Then Flooded Grove... needless to say I didn't do much that game but fortunately Prossh put us out of our misery around T6. The games were pretty fun. Contamination came out twice if I recall but my mana base survived. Zur never got to swing. I feel 30 lands is doable but it can be very dangerous if we don't hit colored mana. Going to add back Weathered Wayfarer, and look at adding more control elements
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL