Why play this Blue version over the 1v1 version? This Blue version has been optimized for 4 man pods. It also has more blue cards and packs FOW and Misdirection. These and a number of the other protective card choices help considerably when fending off threats and not knowing which of the 3 opponents its coming from. It also has a more steady manabase as most of the cards that can be blue are blue.
Why to play this deck? Because you want to win fast
Why not to play this deck? This deck is most defiantly the easiest way to get hated in a playgroup / or in side events.
I have played Emether's 1v1 list for a few months and loved the deck. His list has been optimized for 1v1 and is significantly different than the list below. I had trouble in 4 man pods because most disruption was vs 1 opponent and the man abase was off. So after some searching I found a blue list that i found has given me an easier time winning 4 man pods. The deck list below can probably use some tweaking and that's why I'm posting it, to start discussion and optimize it.
I have considered adding something like Cephalid Inkshrouder just to discard anything stuck in my hand. I've also found that with the infinite mana that devoted druid / morsel hoarder give you there are situations you can get out of just by casting memories journey into whatever you need. Past in Flames may have a place in here but unlikely because it really only helps corner cases.
I've found that the 8 cards dedicated to the combo while not the most compact it is undisruptible as long as necrotic ooze makes it into play. For an all in strategy it's what i prefer.
There are other combo's that use angel / lab maniac. You can also use underworld cerebrus and maniac. I worry that someone will have the stifle / trick bind for the angel combo, or someone will have a sphere of resistance / lodestone golem / thorn of amethyst making the cerebrus combo much weaker because it requires casting more spells.
I cut the Plan B, playing scion because playing in 4 man pods is different than 1v1 and I've found that If i can't win with plan a, I probably won't win with plan b either... At least with the Scion plan B. I have considered adding Mana echoes and running Sliver queen as my general as a slightly weaker plan b because it'll hit all enemies instead of just 1 enemy and cost just 1 deck slot.
The land base in this version is very good since the cards selected were done so specifically to support the blue colors and to be pitched to FoW and Misdirection.
Keep in mind once you dread return necrotic ooze, you win, nothing can stop you.
The % next to the number of cards are the odds of getting 1 of those cards in your opening 7.
General rule of thumb is add 5% for each card you draw after 7. So if you have a 49.91% chance to get a recursion card in your opening 7 then after drawing 3 cards you will have about a 65% chance to draw one.
Please make suggestions / ask any questions you have.
My initial thoughts are..
-You seem to be missing Mother of Runes, still very powerful in a 4 player pod
-The Skittles kill as a plan B (with Scion at the helm) feels powerful enough to warrant a few slots over a few of the cards in here.
I would
-Simic Charm (Probably one of the weakest / mana intensive of your protection spells)
-Gamble (Random discard not the most fun)
-Street Wraith (Generic cycling isnt as good here, as we would rather be tutoring)
-Corpse Dance (EOT exiling isnt fun)
+Mother of Runes
+Lightning Greaves
+Moltensteel Dragon
+Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Other than these thoughts, I really like a lot of the updates made to twist the list to a 4 man deck.
Edit:
Wouldn't Mox Diamond fit your list better than Chrome Mox?
My initial thoughts are..
-You seem to be missing Mother of Runes, still very powerful in a 4 player pod
-The Skittles kill as a plan B (with Scion at the helm) feels powerful enough to warrant a few slots over a few of the cards in here.
I would
-Simic Charm (Probably one of the weakest / mana intensive of your protection spells)
-Gamble (Random discard not the most fun)
-Street Wraith (Generic cycling isnt as good here, as we would rather be tutoring)
-Corpse Dance (EOT exiling isnt fun)
+Mother of Runes
+Lightning Greaves
+Moltensteel Dragon
+Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Other than these thoughts, I really like a lot of the updates made to twist the list to a 4 man deck.
Edit:
Wouldn't Mox Diamond fit your list better than Chrome Mox?
Very solid build. I suggest perhaps switching one land for Mox Diamond. Spell Pierce and the redblasts are very valuable in a developed metagame.
@ spell pierce / red blast : Thanks for reminding me. Spell pierce might not be good enough actually. Swan song is better, its more along the lines of a hard counter. I do like the red blast idea however red is not a dominant color in the deck and worry i may be stuck in a situation where i need it but cannot cast it.
@mox diamond : while I haven't tested the mox diamond option I feel as though there are not enough lands in the deck to support it, let alone taking out a land to include it. I will test with it and try to get back to y'all.
@moltensteel: with this kill it weakens me significantly and only kills 1 enemy. I'll be exposing myself to further elimination. Most likely I won't be able to pick off the most powerful player either because they'll have a blocker or board position. When i played with this kill in the 1v1 version I never used it so i took it out in this version. I feel like mana echoes would be better because it requires 1 card slot. It can hit all enemies, and it cost the same amount of mana to "get there"
@ simic charm: this is not the most optimal card for protection. However it has been included because it is blue and easily cartable with the mana base. I would consider taking this out for another blue card possibly. Maybe arcane denial would be better since it's a hard counter spell. It does have 2 useful modes, bounce and protection, so idk if the extra green mana makes it worth getting cut.
@corpse dance : This card will stay. Exiling Eot is irrelevant because the creature gets haste. All you need is 1 activation from hermit druid. Additionally, you probably won't ever even exile Hermit druid because of the following ruling attached to Corpse Dance. 10/4/2004 Corpse Dance only exiles the card if the card is still on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step. if you cast Corpse dance at opponents Eot you will have all of your mana available to activate druid / unearth fatesticher.
@gamble : Gamble is perfect because the deck doesn't really care wether or not druid is in your hand / graveyard. Really it just wants it in either or because of the multitude of reanimation spells. If you cast gamble and don't discard druid,
@Mother of runes: I do like this card and did really like it in the 1v1 version. I will most likely cut one of the variable slots for it.
@lightning greaves : my only reservation with this is that it doesn't do anything when it comes into play. It does give all of your relevant creatures haste / protection. It helps with giving druid haste and I like it better than anger. I'll probably cut one of the variable slots for it.
Variable Slots: Id say that if you need to add cards to the deck you can cut a street wraith / gitaxian probe / gilded drake / mana sources. These won't water town the consistency. Probe / street wraith were mainly included because they are additional draw for lab maniac. Lab maniac is not in this list for perviously mentioned reasons. I would advise that if you are removing a blue card you replace it with one or don't remove too many without replacing them because you do not want to be digging for a blue card as backup for FOW / misdirection.
I think the Lab Maniac package is probably better but there is an argument for the Ooze package, mainly Ooze costs 4 instead of 7 so manually killing your opponent with Survival is a lot easier. Granted you can still manually kill with the Lab Maniac package, you just have to jump through more hoops and are generally more reliant on Hermit Druid.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
The Lab Maniac win conditions are not worth cuting a slot out of the win package, as they are quite easy to disrupt. Stifle on the Angel trigger ruins your day pretty hard. In the Ooze win, you cannot lose once the dread return resolves.
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"When Scissors starts cutting your Paper, be the Rock."
The Lab Maniac win conditions are not worth cuting a slot out of the win package, as they are quite easy to disrupt. Stifle on the Angel trigger ruins your day pretty hard. In the Ooze win, you cannot lose once the dread return resolves.
Agreed. For a deck that has such an ALL IN strategy it needs to be as airtight as possible.
Could Cruel Tutor be good in this deck, or is it too slow?
Also have you actually tested this in 4-man pods? I was considering making this deck for multiplayer, and I was just wondering if it makes a difference that there are more players in the game. Or if it doesn't because they're too busy durdling around for the first three turns of the game :D. Anyway thanks for sharing your list.
Why to play this deck? Because you want to win fast
Why not to play this deck? This deck is most defiantly the easiest way to get hated in a playgroup / or in side events.
I have played Emether's 1v1 list for a few months and loved the deck. His list has been optimized for 1v1 and is significantly different than the list below. I had trouble in 4 man pods because most disruption was vs 1 opponent and the man abase was off. So after some searching I found a blue list that i found has given me an easier time winning 4 man pods. The deck list below can probably use some tweaking and that's why I'm posting it, to start discussion and optimize it.
I have considered adding something like Cephalid Inkshrouder just to discard anything stuck in my hand. I've also found that with the infinite mana that devoted druid / morsel hoarder give you there are situations you can get out of just by casting memories journey into whatever you need. Past in Flames may have a place in here but unlikely because it really only helps corner cases.
I've found that the 8 cards dedicated to the combo while not the most compact it is undisruptible as long as necrotic ooze makes it into play. For an all in strategy it's what i prefer.
There are other combo's that use angel / lab maniac. You can also use underworld cerebrus and maniac. I worry that someone will have the stifle / trick bind for the angel combo, or someone will have a sphere of resistance / lodestone golem / thorn of amethyst making the cerebrus combo much weaker because it requires casting more spells.
I cut the Plan B, playing scion because playing in 4 man pods is different than 1v1 and I've found that If i can't win with plan a, I probably won't win with plan b either... At least with the Scion plan B. I have considered adding Mana echoes and running Sliver queen as my general as a slightly weaker plan b because it'll hit all enemies instead of just 1 enemy and cost just 1 deck slot.
The land base in this version is very good since the cards selected were done so specifically to support the blue colors and to be pitched to FoW and Misdirection.
Keep in mind once you dread return necrotic ooze, you win, nothing can stop you.
The following are useful links to
Emether's list / Primer <---- it's amazing
origination of the list below on MTGtheSource <---how the blue list came to be
The % next to the number of cards are the odds of getting 1 of those cards in your opening 7.
General rule of thumb is add 5% for each card you draw after 7. So if you have a 49.91% chance to get a recursion card in your opening 7 then after drawing 3 cards you will have about a 65% chance to draw one.
Please make suggestions / ask any questions you have.
1 Narcomoeba
1 Fatestitcher
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Morselhoarder
1 Devoted Druid
1 Dread Return
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Corpse Dance
1 Unearth
1 Reanimate
1 Postmortem Lunge
1 Shallow Grave
1 Life // Death
1 Pull From Eternity
1 Memory's Journey
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Force of Will
1 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mental Misstep
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Plaxmanta
1 Mizzium Skin
1 Simic Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Nature's Claim
1 Snapback
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Pongify
1 Gilded Drake
1 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Gamble
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Shred Memory
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Entomb
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Frantic Search
1 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Street Wraith
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Twilight Mire
1 Flooded Grove
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 City of Brass
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
Scholar of Athreos - doesn't target so you don't need ray of revelation / ancient grudge.
Gilded Drake - variable slot possible replaced by Rise // Fall
Imperial Seal - easily replaced by fauna shaman
Grim Tutor - easily replaced by sylvan library
Imperial Recruiter - easily replaced by impulse
-You seem to be missing Mother of Runes, still very powerful in a 4 player pod
-The Skittles kill as a plan B (with Scion at the helm) feels powerful enough to warrant a few slots over a few of the cards in here.
I would
-Simic Charm (Probably one of the weakest / mana intensive of your protection spells)
-Gamble (Random discard not the most fun)
-Street Wraith (Generic cycling isnt as good here, as we would rather be tutoring)
-Corpse Dance (EOT exiling isnt fun)
+Mother of Runes
+Lightning Greaves
+Moltensteel Dragon
+Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Other than these thoughts, I really like a lot of the updates made to twist the list to a 4 man deck.
Edit:
Wouldn't Mox Diamond fit your list better than Chrome Mox?
Commanders!
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Wifey's Commanders!
Animar, Soul of Elements
@ spell pierce / red blast : Thanks for reminding me. Spell pierce might not be good enough actually. Swan song is better, its more along the lines of a hard counter. I do like the red blast idea however red is not a dominant color in the deck and worry i may be stuck in a situation where i need it but cannot cast it.
@mox diamond : while I haven't tested the mox diamond option I feel as though there are not enough lands in the deck to support it, let alone taking out a land to include it. I will test with it and try to get back to y'all.
@moltensteel: with this kill it weakens me significantly and only kills 1 enemy. I'll be exposing myself to further elimination. Most likely I won't be able to pick off the most powerful player either because they'll have a blocker or board position. When i played with this kill in the 1v1 version I never used it so i took it out in this version. I feel like mana echoes would be better because it requires 1 card slot. It can hit all enemies, and it cost the same amount of mana to "get there"
@ simic charm: this is not the most optimal card for protection. However it has been included because it is blue and easily cartable with the mana base. I would consider taking this out for another blue card possibly. Maybe arcane denial would be better since it's a hard counter spell. It does have 2 useful modes, bounce and protection, so idk if the extra green mana makes it worth getting cut.
@corpse dance : This card will stay. Exiling Eot is irrelevant because the creature gets haste. All you need is 1 activation from hermit druid. Additionally, you probably won't ever even exile Hermit druid because of the following ruling attached to Corpse Dance. 10/4/2004 Corpse Dance only exiles the card if the card is still on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step. if you cast Corpse dance at opponents Eot you will have all of your mana available to activate druid / unearth fatesticher.
@gamble : Gamble is perfect because the deck doesn't really care wether or not druid is in your hand / graveyard. Really it just wants it in either or because of the multitude of reanimation spells. If you cast gamble and don't discard druid,
@Mother of runes: I do like this card and did really like it in the 1v1 version. I will most likely cut one of the variable slots for it.
@lightning greaves : my only reservation with this is that it doesn't do anything when it comes into play. It does give all of your relevant creatures haste / protection. It helps with giving druid haste and I like it better than anger. I'll probably cut one of the variable slots for it.
Variable Slots: Id say that if you need to add cards to the deck you can cut a street wraith / gitaxian probe / gilded drake / mana sources. These won't water town the consistency. Probe / street wraith were mainly included because they are additional draw for lab maniac. Lab maniac is not in this list for perviously mentioned reasons. I would advise that if you are removing a blue card you replace it with one or don't remove too many without replacing them because you do not want to be digging for a blue card as backup for FOW / misdirection.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
I think the Lab Maniac package is probably better but there is an argument for the Ooze package, mainly Ooze costs 4 instead of 7 so manually killing your opponent with Survival is a lot easier. Granted you can still manually kill with the Lab Maniac package, you just have to jump through more hoops and are generally more reliant on Hermit Druid.
Commanders!
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Wifey's Commanders!
Animar, Soul of Elements
Scholar of Athreos - doesn't target it affects all opponents and is n update from previous versions
Agreed. For a deck that has such an ALL IN strategy it needs to be as airtight as possible.
also... did you ever miss Anger?
Also have you actually tested this in 4-man pods? I was considering making this deck for multiplayer, and I was just wondering if it makes a difference that there are more players in the game. Or if it doesn't because they're too busy durdling around for the first three turns of the game :D. Anyway thanks for sharing your list.
Rasputin Dreamweaver EDH