Ya, what TDizzle said. My head is still swimming with possibilities, so let me try and figure this one out. I'm thinking Tainted Strike and Glistening Oil are good for this deck as replacements for the discard enchantments, which I was not a fan of. Grafted Exoskeleton is a bit on the expensive side, but it's also a must-answer. I'll think about it haha. That way I can focus on burning through drawing cards. I'm also going to add in Time Reversal. I was doing some test hands last night, and I'm lacking density. Running all the Forks in the world and not hitting your Wheels means nothing. This deck has a few confused card slots that are only useful half of the time. IE: Yawgmoth's Will is awkward because half of the time your GY is shuffled into your deck; all top-of-deck tutors don't really work out for you while you're going off if you draw nothing but Twister effects; I'm running too many Forks, getting rid of Increasing Vengeance; and lastly, again, the discard-based enchantments are hit and miss.
Ya, what TDizzle said. My head is still swimming with possibilities, so let me try and figure this one out. I'm thinking Tainted Strike and Glistening Oil are good for this deck as replacements for the discard enchantments, which I was not a fan of. Grafted Exoskeleton is a bit on the expensive side, but it's also a must-answer. I'll think about it haha. That way I can focus on burning through drawing cards. I'm also going to add in Time Reversal. I was doing some test hands last night, and I'm lacking density. Running all the Forks in the world and not hitting your Wheels means nothing. This deck has a few confused card slots that are only useful half of the time. IE: Yawgmoth's Will is awkward because half of the time your GY is shuffled into your deck; all top-of-deck tutors don't really work out for you while you're going off if you draw nothing but Twister effects; I'm running too many Forks, getting rid of Increasing Vengeance; and lastly, again, the discard-based enchantments are hit and miss.
Wheel effects and helpers::
Libraryof leng
Words of waste
Wheel of fate
Wheel of fortune
Reforge the soul
Forced fruition
Windfall
Wheel and deal
Whirlpool warrior
Whispering madness
Jace's archivist
Time reversal
Time spiral
Memory jar
Teferi's puzzle box
Wheel effects and helpers::
Libraryof leng
Words of waste
Wheel of fate
Wheel of fortune
Reforge the soul
Forced fruition
Windfall
Wheel and deal
Whirlpool warrior
Whispering madness
Jace's archivist
Time reversal
Time spiral
Memory jar
Teferi's puzzle box
I have most of those in the deck, but I tried to skimp out on the cards that couldn't be forked or didn't draw at least a large amount of cards for everyone (ie Whirlpool Warrior doesn't make that cut).
I've added in poison to the decklist, although I'm wary of how successful it will be. If your opponents aren't expecting it, then sure, it will end the game swiftly. If they know you have that path to victory, it'll be harder to keep Nekusar in play than before.
I also took out Underworld Dreams. That card has a very prohibitive mana cost. I think that the correct way to go about playing this deck is to run the most cost-efficient cards of each kind, or at least until the more powerful strategies present themselves. I'm trying an amalgam of all of them, so I'll let you guys know which types of pain are the most viable. This deck can be so chaotic, you just want to make sure you can cast what you draw without letting CMCs hold you back from going nuts, whichever direction the chaos takes you.
I can't see needing Gamble if you have access to black and blue.
Have you considered flat cost reduction cards to help chain wheel?
I'm trying to keep tutoring costs down. Tutoring to hand is still more valuable than top of deck here, and it doesn't get much better than Gamble, especially when your probabilities of discarding the card you need are lowered thanks to the wheels. And 90% of the time, in opening hand, it reads: Search your library for target Mana Crypt
Flat reduction cards are definitely worth considering. The best one might be Helm of Awakening. The other ones might be too expensive, but I'm open to suggestions.
Hey MCR,
Great work getting this going. Have you had a chance to check out Bob's T&L list? There's a contingent of Izzet System Architects and Engineers there that are pros at spell-slinging with special focus on wheels and wheeling.
Sonik, Donald, and Bob are pro's at making magic happen with d7s.
Did you actually test the infect? i could see it being really awesome or very bad based on how controly your meta is.
Nope. It's on my things to do today. I have the same feelings as you do. Chances are, it's probably bad unless you somehow manage to catch the table off guard and tapped out.
Just some ideas, not saying all will work well in Nekusar
Cool ideas. I think most of those cards lend themselves to a more traditional Owling Mine deck, meaning pain cards stacked ontop of Nekusar's ability. While I don't think that particular archetype is bad, it lacks some focus and easily makes you public enemy #1.
Sangromancer is an awesome card. I love it in mono black and I can only imagine how sweet it is with wheels.
Yea, it's a cool card. I think my response would be in the same vein as the statement above - it's good in a more traditional Pain / Owling Mine deck, but not too hot here in a ramp list.
Hey MCR,
Great work getting this going. Have you had a chance to check out Bob's T&L list? There's a contingent of Izzet System Architects and Engineers there that are pros at spell-slinging with special focus on wheels and wheeling.
Sonik, Donald, and Bob are pro's at making magic happen with d7s.
Totally! I did check out the thread, and I did borrow a few ideas from it. It's a lengthy read, but I've been combing through it for some gems. The T&L lists have a few very different foundations, but they definitely splash into an Underworld Dreams type deck. Perhaps I should ask them to stop by and add their feedback.
Played a few pracitice games with the deck, using more budget counters and substituted whirlpool warrior for timetwister.
The deck is a blast! I have yet to go off with Dream Halls, Notion Thief, Waste Not, or win with poison, but I definitely like it and will contribute in the future.
Played a few pracitice games with the deck, using more budget counters and substituted whirlpool warrior for timetwister.
The deck is a blast! I have yet to go off with Dream Halls, Notion Thief, or win with poison, but I definitely like it and will contribute in the future.
Awesome! I appreciate all of the help so far.
I'm also consulting the D7 "council" atm for their expertise. I think that with their help, coupled with all of the great ideas from posters in this thread, we can make a totally fun, wild and explosive list :o:)
I'm also consulting the D7 "council" atm for their expertise. I think that with their help, coupled with all of the great ideas from posters in this thread, we can make a totally fun, wild and explosive list :o:)
It's definitely consistent and has alot of redundancy, in D7s, pain effects, etc. I occasionally got hands of mana floods. I could drop a land for another draw effect I guess.
It's definitely consistent and has alot of redundancy, in D7s, pain effects, etc. I occasionally got hands of mana floods. I could drop a land for another draw effect I guess.
If we do convert the list towards a more spell slinging type deck, you'll definitely see a lot more cheap enablers and draw, allowing you to sculpt and ramp up easier.
The hard part now is finding the perfect balance between pains, wheels, sculpting, and ramp. IE, do we want to focus more on running Underworld Dreams? Or should we aim for a more Tendrils of Agony-type list and have Nekusar be a partner in crime instead of the Don?
If we do convert the list towards a more spell slinging type deck, you'll definitely see a lot more cheap enablers and draw, allowing you to sculpt and ramp up easier.
The hard part now is finding the perfect balance between pains, wheels, sculpting, and ramp. IE, do we want to focus more on running Underworld Dreams? Or should we aim for a more Tendrils of Agony-type list and have Nekusar be a partner in crime instead of the Don?
I posted before about having multiple lists, because in the end, there may not be a "best list", and even if there are, someone may prefer a different wincon set. The lists doing storm will look much different from ones it seems, due to the sets of accelerants and killcons youll run.
Im doing lab man in mine, for the notion theif win.
I posted before about having multiple lists, because in the end, there may not be a "best list", and even if there are, someone may prefer a different wincon set. The lists doing storm will look much different from ones it seems, due to the sets of accelerants and killcons youll run.
Im doing lab man in mine, for the notion theif win.
That makes sense. After I give the deck more test spins, I'll post up two or three different subsets of win conditions that might be useful in different kinds of metagames. So far, I'm really liking the cross between storm and punisher, allowing me two routes to victory that share almost all of the same cards.
I played out a few hands, and the mana acceleration in this deck is nuts. Feels pretty natural, and my brain is already wired to play these kinds of decks thanks to my experience with TES in Legacy a few years ago.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Hey I've been following this post since Nekusar was spoiled, I have taken in everyone's feedback and created my list as a vanilla "hand manipulation" build.
I sat down the other day against a friend the other day with my list and luckily had Nekusar out by turn 3-4 at most each time. With a few hits from Dragon Mage with Nekusar and Caress on the field he went from 38 to less than 10 then he attempted to take out my Seer with Big Game Hunter and I cast Arcane Denial, he then returned it and cast again with E Witness, but I ended up taking him down and killing with a Cerebral Vortex after.
Have you given Grip of Chaos a try at all. Most of the effects this deck runs are targeting all players so they are not eligible for the randomness of Grip. Will also make opponents second guess every thing they cast / trigger.
I just came here to say thank you. This kind of deck was my favorite deck, and for the past couple of months, I'd been trying to bring it back with Bolas at the helm.
Then Nekusar got spoiled. Magical Christmas came early to the Land. This has been a great reference while I get my list started.
Good stuff guys. I'll be addressing more comments as the week goes on. I've been extremely busy this past weekend and haven't even had a chance to test the deck out yet. So far, preliminary sample hands have shown that the list is somewhat conflicted at the moment (as I've been saying all along). There are a few very different, convoluted paths that we can move the deck in. I think I'll only be choosing one that I feel is both most optimal and suits my playstyle the best. Here are a few notes regarding each path:
Storm Version
This deck isn't equipped to do it. Yes, you can, but that'd require changing the entire list around, and also dropping the key components for basically more acceleration and a greater emphasis on resolving either Necropotence or Ad Nauseum. It doesn't really need or use the general, and would be much better off drawing the entire deck to win with. At that point, you might as well be playing a 5C Storm deck. Wheels are pricey enough as is, chaining spells is not this deck's forte.
Punisher Version
Probably the best version of the deck so far, focusing on pain enchantments and artifacts for explosive plays. You net the most damage through playing wheels and the playstyle doesn't require chaining spells to squeeze out a win. Whether or not poison is good is still questionable and meta dependent.
Stax
If you want to slow the game down, I think that this is a totally viable option. Because it's hard for this deck to kill the table in one turn, I may end up converting the list to include ~10 cards that inhibit my opponents long enough for me to burn them out.
Spell Slinger
I think that this is a viable option for the deck as well, utilizing cards like Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner backed by cheap draw. However, i feel like it lacks synergy with running excessive amounts of wheels. Nekusar takes the back seat here, which in a more competitive environment, is probably a good thing.
I'm still open to suggestions, and I'm sorry I keep repeating myself without coming to conclusions first. I promise to get some solid testing in before I jump to any one conclusion.
Glistening oil
Grafted exoskeleton
Tainted strike
Think about how fast you can wheel kill them now...
Ya, what TDizzle said. My head is still swimming with possibilities, so let me try and figure this one out. I'm thinking Tainted Strike and Glistening Oil are good for this deck as replacements for the discard enchantments, which I was not a fan of. Grafted Exoskeleton is a bit on the expensive side, but it's also a must-answer. I'll think about it haha. That way I can focus on burning through drawing cards. I'm also going to add in Time Reversal. I was doing some test hands last night, and I'm lacking density. Running all the Forks in the world and not hitting your Wheels means nothing. This deck has a few confused card slots that are only useful half of the time. IE: Yawgmoth's Will is awkward because half of the time your GY is shuffled into your deck; all top-of-deck tutors don't really work out for you while you're going off if you draw nothing but Twister effects; I'm running too many Forks, getting rid of Increasing Vengeance; and lastly, again, the discard-based enchantments are hit and miss.
Also:
Phyresis
Corrupted Conscience
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
IMO this is what you should be running :
Wheel effects and helpers::
Libraryof leng
Words of waste
Wheel of fate
Wheel of fortune
Reforge the soul
Forced fruition
Windfall
Wheel and deal
Whirlpool warrior
Whispering madness
Jace's archivist
Time reversal
Time spiral
Memory jar
Teferi's puzzle box
I have most of those in the deck, but I tried to skimp out on the cards that couldn't be forked or didn't draw at least a large amount of cards for everyone (ie Whirlpool Warrior doesn't make that cut).
I've added in poison to the decklist, although I'm wary of how successful it will be. If your opponents aren't expecting it, then sure, it will end the game swiftly. If they know you have that path to victory, it'll be harder to keep Nekusar in play than before.
I also took out Underworld Dreams. That card has a very prohibitive mana cost. I think that the correct way to go about playing this deck is to run the most cost-efficient cards of each kind, or at least until the more powerful strategies present themselves. I'm trying an amalgam of all of them, so I'll let you guys know which types of pain are the most viable. This deck can be so chaotic, you just want to make sure you can cast what you draw without letting CMCs hold you back from going nuts, whichever direction the chaos takes you.
Added in Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Seething Song, Time Reversal, and Gamble. I also updated the OP with a few lines of strategy.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Have you considered flat cost reduction cards to help chain wheel?
I'm trying to keep tutoring costs down. Tutoring to hand is still more valuable than top of deck here, and it doesn't get much better than Gamble, especially when your probabilities of discarding the card you need are lowered thanks to the wheels. And 90% of the time, in opening hand, it reads: Search your library for target Mana Crypt
Flat reduction cards are definitely worth considering. The best one might be Helm of Awakening. The other ones might be too expensive, but I'm open to suggestions.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Blood Clock
Sangromancer
Myojin of Night's Reach - probably only good if you run something like Megrim or Liliana's Caress
Scythe Specter
Forsaken Wastes / Gibbering Descent
Oppression or Painful Quandry
Dreamborn Muse
Memory Erosion
Standstill
Meishin, the Mind Cage - expensive though
Just some ideas, not saying all will work well in Nekusar
:symb:Seizan, Perverter of Truth:symb:
:symu:Kami of the Crescent Moon:symu:
:symr:Tahngarth, Talruum Hero:symr:
:symu::symg:Prime Speaker Zegana:symu::symg:
:symu::symr:Melek, Izzet Paragon:symu::symr:
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Great work getting this going. Have you had a chance to check out Bob's T&L list? There's a contingent of Izzet System Architects and Engineers there that are pros at spell-slinging with special focus on wheels and wheeling.
Sonik, Donald, and Bob are pro's at making magic happen with d7s.
Do you know when it will actually be released? If it's the next set, I'll probably have to put in a placeholder, as I plan on playing Nekusar now.
Nope. It's on my things to do today. I have the same feelings as you do. Chances are, it's probably bad unless you somehow manage to catch the table off guard and tapped out.
Cool ideas. I think most of those cards lend themselves to a more traditional Owling Mine deck, meaning pain cards stacked ontop of Nekusar's ability. While I don't think that particular archetype is bad, it lacks some focus and easily makes you public enemy #1.
Yea, it's a cool card. I think my response would be in the same vein as the statement above - it's good in a more traditional Pain / Owling Mine deck, but not too hot here in a ramp list.
Totally! I did check out the thread, and I did borrow a few ideas from it. It's a lengthy read, but I've been combing through it for some gems. The T&L lists have a few very different foundations, but they definitely splash into an Underworld Dreams type deck. Perhaps I should ask them to stop by and add their feedback.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
The deck is a blast! I have yet to go off with Dream Halls, Notion Thief, Waste Not, or win with poison, but I definitely like it and will contribute in the future.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Awesome! I appreciate all of the help so far.
I'm also consulting the D7 "council" atm for their expertise. I think that with their help, coupled with all of the great ideas from posters in this thread, we can make a totally fun, wild and explosive list :o:)
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
It's definitely consistent and has alot of redundancy, in D7s, pain effects, etc. I occasionally got hands of mana floods. I could drop a land for another draw effect I guess.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
If we do convert the list towards a more spell slinging type deck, you'll definitely see a lot more cheap enablers and draw, allowing you to sculpt and ramp up easier.
The hard part now is finding the perfect balance between pains, wheels, sculpting, and ramp. IE, do we want to focus more on running Underworld Dreams? Or should we aim for a more Tendrils of Agony-type list and have Nekusar be a partner in crime instead of the Don?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I posted before about having multiple lists, because in the end, there may not be a "best list", and even if there are, someone may prefer a different wincon set. The lists doing storm will look much different from ones it seems, due to the sets of accelerants and killcons youll run.
Im doing lab man in mine, for the notion theif win.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
That makes sense. After I give the deck more test spins, I'll post up two or three different subsets of win conditions that might be useful in different kinds of metagames. So far, I'm really liking the cross between storm and punisher, allowing me two routes to victory that share almost all of the same cards.
I played out a few hands, and the mana acceleration in this deck is nuts. Feels pretty natural, and my brain is already wired to play these kinds of decks thanks to my experience with TES in Legacy a few years ago.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
1 Dragon Mage
1 Duskmantle Seer
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Kami of the Crescent Moon
1 Melek, Izzet Paragon
1 Nin, the Pain Artist
1 Sangromancer
1 Scythe Specter
1 Seizan, Perverter of Truth
1 Sepulchral Primordial
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Trinket Mage
Planeswalkers:
1 Jace Beleren
Instants:
1 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
1 Cerebral Vortex
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dream Fracture
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Force of Will
1 Forbid
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Recoil
1 Steam Augury
1 Vision Skeins
Sorceries:
1 Burning Inquiry
1 Delirium Skeins
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Incendiary Command
1 Increasing Ambition
1 Minds Aglow
1 Molten Psyche
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Skyscribing
1 Syphon Mind
1 Temporal Cascade
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Vandalblast
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Forced Fruition
1 Future Sight
1 Havoc Festival
1 Liliana's Caress
1 Megrim
1 Phyrexian Tyranny
1 Spiteful Visions
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Wound Reflection
Artifacts:
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Dimir Signet
1 Font of Mythos
1 Howling Mine
1 Izzet Signet
1 Library of Leng
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
Lands
Basic:
5 Island
2 Mountain
4 Swamp
Non-Basic:
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Crumbling Necroplis
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Graven Cairns
1 Halimar Depths
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Nivix, Aerie of the Firemind
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Watery Grave
I sat down the other day against a friend the other day with my list and luckily had Nekusar out by turn 3-4 at most each time. With a few hits from Dragon Mage with Nekusar and Caress on the field he went from 38 to less than 10 then he attempted to take out my Seer with Big Game Hunter and I cast Arcane Denial, he then returned it and cast again with E Witness, but I ended up taking him down and killing with a Cerebral Vortex after.
Then Nekusar got spoiled. Magical Christmas came early to the Land. This has been a great reference while I get my list started.
Storm Version
This deck isn't equipped to do it. Yes, you can, but that'd require changing the entire list around, and also dropping the key components for basically more acceleration and a greater emphasis on resolving either Necropotence or Ad Nauseum. It doesn't really need or use the general, and would be much better off drawing the entire deck to win with. At that point, you might as well be playing a 5C Storm deck. Wheels are pricey enough as is, chaining spells is not this deck's forte.
Punisher Version
Probably the best version of the deck so far, focusing on pain enchantments and artifacts for explosive plays. You net the most damage through playing wheels and the playstyle doesn't require chaining spells to squeeze out a win. Whether or not poison is good is still questionable and meta dependent.
Stax
If you want to slow the game down, I think that this is a totally viable option. Because it's hard for this deck to kill the table in one turn, I may end up converting the list to include ~10 cards that inhibit my opponents long enough for me to burn them out.
Spell Slinger
I think that this is a viable option for the deck as well, utilizing cards like Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner backed by cheap draw. However, i feel like it lacks synergy with running excessive amounts of wheels. Nekusar takes the back seat here, which in a more competitive environment, is probably a good thing.
I'm still open to suggestions, and I'm sorry I keep repeating myself without coming to conclusions first. I promise to get some solid testing in before I jump to any one conclusion.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
These seem like win:
Djinn Illuminatus
Night Dealings
Pox
Gratuitous Violence
Creature builds might like these:
Sword of War and Peace
Sneak Attack
I have life gain in my group so I'm going to try out these:
Havoc Festival
Erebos, God of the Dead
Leyline of Punishment
Edit:
Also, I don't plan on adding him, but if there was ever a deck that you might play Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded in this is it.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master