I'm always happy to draw mine. It speeds the deck up so much if its in your hand the first few turns they're inclusion is worth it regardless. Drawing into it later is usually fine. Having extra mana sources is just fine when you're drawing 14 cards a turn.
Agreed. Given youre running this comboy build or a similar one to the OP, and if youre posting it here you should be, dark ritual and friends, while helping storm count (if you run stuff like minds desire), are added gas that allow you to keep wheeling on a combo turn. In fact, i actively tutor for Mana Geyser for this reason. It sets up a big combo turn, and most of our wheels are red based, with exceptions given to windfall, whispering madness, and possibly time reversal and wheel and deal. If nothing else, it lets us cast multiple mana fixing rocks and provides us colorless, which on a combo turn is also needed. (Or past in flames for more fun)
In fact, the most dead draws are typically lands. One build i saw ran seismic assault to pitch lands. I typically pitch lands to mind over matter, another excellent tutor target that wins games with many of our other cards like Temple bell, otherworld atlas, and jace's archivist.
I started running a few cards that shut things down: Damping Matrix, Torpor Orb, Overburden and just picked up a Grafdigger's Cage to throw in there as well. Shutting down options seems to leave cards in hands, which is hard to quantify.
I was on the fence about the cage because I run Past in Flames and Yawgmoth's Will, but the benefit is that I don't have to worry about feeding any reanimate strategies at the same time.
I won a game the other day off of a Chains of Mephistopheles / Teferi's Puzzlebox lock. I was debating taking them out, but I would have been dead in the water if it wasn't for the combo, so its staying for now. Having a bunch of fun with the deck and picked up a Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond for a little faster mana. Tainted Aether came through that game as an all star as well until Cyclonic Rift saved me from a general kill and sealed the game.
Also picked up a Gemstone Caverns, but have not had it in the opening hand yet =(
It might be okay to run something resilient like Glistening Oil and Phyresis, but I wouldn't play Grafted Exoskeleton - it's just too obvious. Once people learn that you win by focusing on infect, Nekusar will never stay on the table.
Infect may very well still be a maybe for this deck, I just don't like how gimmicky it is and how telegraphed it can be sometimes. I am looking forward to hearing what suggestions you have.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I just realized you took the Infect cards out. I must say this makes no sense to me. This is the perfect commander for Infect because the commander is dealing the damage and not another effect or ability.
I disagree completely with your logic that using Infect will cause opponents to remove it faster than combining with wheel effects in general. This commander devastates opponent's strategies, so I refer you to my signature block.
How is Infect less telegraphed than take additional turns or wheel effects?
Also, I don't understand why you add in all the Sorcery speed, single card draw spells. These don't belong in this deck IMO. Brainstorm and instant speed tutors are the only things that should go here.
I kept 2 infect cards in my build, largely because a wheel + a copy + an infect is game. If its not stopped obviously in some way. Thats really only 6-7 mana at its cheapest. If you can make 14 dmg game instead, I say its worth a card or two.
I didn't like the Infect cards because there were times when I got it on Nekusar, wheeled, dealt 7 Infect to everyone, and then Nekusar is removed, which made it more work to actually have to find another Infect card to cast on Nekusar before dealing "damage" again.
Anyone consider Sakashima the Impostor? She's a clone (already useful) that can be used to copy Nekusar without running into the Legend Rule.
She is one of the very few creatures that I run in my build. Why not double up on the enjoyment. She can also help in case I need to copy something else, but that has yet to come up yet.
I didn't like the Infect cards because there were times when I got it on Nekusar, wheeled, dealt 7 Infect to everyone, and then Nekusar is removed, which made it more work to actually have to find another Infect card to cast on Nekusar before dealing "damage" again.
The point is to only use the Infect option when you can deal 10 damage. Why would you even cast it if you cant kill the board? (assuming no responses from your opponents)
Making a deck 'too reliant' on the commander seems out of place to me; the format is built around a commander...
Competitive decks need to be resilient enough to win without their commanders
I disagree with this comment, but I do understand your perspective. From my point of view this translates to: competitive decks need win cons that don't require the commander to be part of them.
In this instance, I submit that 1-3 cards are not statistically significant enough to impact deck resilience, but are significant enough to warrant inclusion for the chance to win with only 10 damage dealt on a single trigger.
The point is to only use the Infect option when you can deal 10 damage. Why would you even cast it if you cant kill the board? (assuming no responses from your opponents)
Because assuming no responses from opponents, considering there are three of them, is a tough thing to assume.
This thread bears a [Competitive] tag. Competitive decks need to be resilient enough to win without their commanders because, in a format rife with tuck-based removal, you never know how long you'll have Nekusar in play. If you build your deck so that it can only win with your commander out, you'll eventually lose games because people will catch on to that and begin running tuck spells to keep you off your win condition. If you build your deck so that the commander simply augments the overarching goal of the deck you'll find that you're not only playing a more serious game of Magic, but you'll win more often.
This. The only infect card worth running is tainted strike plus a wheel or two(get to 10). Maybe the enchantment as well, but the equipment is too telegraphed and will get your stuff nuked or knocked out of the game.
To some of the posters here: I want to play in these metas where your friends let you keep your general around for more than a turn or two. Must be nice, not having to worry about board wipes, targeted removal, tucks, etc.
Infect is a metagame consideration. I happen to play in a metagame where spot removal is more common, and that's why I've opted to eschew the plan entirely. That said, if spot removal isn't rampant in your meta, then by all means, I'd run all of the cheap infect cards to try and steal wins.
I'll apologize again and say that I haven't really been testing this deck as of late. I still do plan to sit down and play some serious games with it, so please bear with me.
This. The only infect card worth running is tainted strike plus a wheel or two(get to 10). Maybe the enchantment as well, but the equipment is too telegraphed and will get your stuff nuked or knocked out of the game.
To some of the posters here: I want to play in these metas where your friends let you keep your general around for more than a turn or two. Must be nice, not having to worry about board wipes, targeted removal, tucks, etc.
The whole idea would be Wheel + copy + Tainted Strike. I wouldn't play Tainted Strike hoping the 2 damage a turn would add up. This is the same risk however if you were planning to drop 14 damage in a turn, or play Yawgmoth's Will with a wheel in the GY or mana ramp, why would your opponent allow it? If they have removal they shut it down, if they don't, you win.
I actually just removed the two I did have though, had to make room for some new toys and people in my meta people wouldn't take too kindly to infect wins.
To some of the posters here: I want to play in these metas where your friends let you keep your general around for more than a turn or two. Must be nice, not having to worry about board wipes, targeted removal, tucks, etc.
I think one difference might be playing with strangers, at home or at a retail location (LGS). In my experience, games played with known parties in a home setting generally prefer letting people play the game and win by playing cards, not countering and removing everything so the game takes hours to complete or top-deck mode wins 99% of the time.
I'm probably the only person who runs counter spells in both metas I play in and I generally only use Hinder and Spell Crumple, because I only want to protect my board state or deal with something my deck isn't equipped to handle otherwise.
Playing an Infect card isn't any more or less threatening than Tooth and Nail with the Entwine cost paid or any other game winning card/combo.
The point is, a hand with Prosperity, Tainted Strike, and Windfall (you could even draw either of the last two in the process) and 9 (at least UU and B included), then you win just the same. Sure, there are more variables as you put cards in your opponent's hands, but you've been doing that the last 7+ turns because that is how the deck is built. It's logical to assume that most people will be playing the cards you are giving them, not discarding down to seven every turn so they can wait to see if you win.
From my perspective, the argument is heavily weighted towards including Infect, not excluding it.
Just hopped in to say that I've been testing with Waste Not proxied up. It adds so much fire to the deck that it becomes horribly vicious. With that, I'm tuning the deck to have a bit more focus on the discard aspect of the wheels, even though M15 is so far away (I am assuming that it comes out on M15).
Seriously people are adding a few infect cards to a regular deck?
If you want to go the infect route with quick kills then go all the way and make it the focus of the deck. Add infect creatures and proliferate artifacts to finish the job Nekusar starts.
I think it would be fun and work well.
Going the "tossed in" infect route; what do you do once you hit people with a draw and hopefully a wheel before he dies? Try to use the few cards in your library to get a another couple poison counters on their draw step? You just waited 9 damage on nothing.
I wish I could play in your metas where a Nekusar with infect will live more than a few turns.
Seriously people are adding a few infect cards to a regular deck?
If you want to go the infect route with quick kills then go all the way and make it the focus of the deck. Add infect creatures and proliferate artifacts to finish the job Nekusar starts.
I think it would be fun and work well.
Going the "tossed in" infect route; what do you do once you hit people with a draw and hopefully a wheel before he dies? Try to use the few cards in your library to get a another couple poison counters on their draw step? You just waited 9 damage on nothing.
I wish I could play in your metas where a Nekusar with infect will live more than a few turns.
The earlier posts highlight that that is exactly what they are not hoping for. A wheel with a way to copy it + infect is a table kill. Attempting to ping poison turn after turn is not the plan, its to turn 14 damage (2 wheels) into a kill in 1 turn.
I'm working on a more competitive version of the deck that features a control shell with mini locks, combos, and less dependency on Nekusar's thematic chains. I'm going to talk to a few of my buddies about it, test it out, and then post some results. It might take a while but know that I am still slowly working on this deck (as I grow bored of Prossh).
I've almost fine-tuned my Nekusar wheels to deck to perfection. I had started a thread about it but due to the lack of interest (and the fact that yours gets a lot of attention), I'll post my findings here. I hope they help both you and those interested in this broken general!
My meta does not fool around - and it's not a local store, simply a group of buds who get together to play MtG. Among the decks used are threeProgenitus decks (1 runs Blightsteel Colossus, Door to Nothingness, and the like to get instant wins against at least one player at a time, 1 runs Blightsteel Colossus and tries to play Progenitus as fast as possible (yeah, this guy likes to copy other people's decks/ideas - who knows why we even play with him, lol), and the other plays an infinite mana combo in his), 1 runs Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, 1 runs Rafiq of the Many, and I run either Zedruu the Greathearted, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, or Nekusar, the Mindrazer. My meta doesn't allow anyone to do anything. The only way you can get something done is if everyone has already spent its removal/disruption/etc so you can have at least a turn or two to do anything worthwhile (trust me, my Oloro deck runs every kind of board wipe there is) or sneak it in (playing Test of Endurance with flash before my upkeep in my Oloro deck or successfully casting Enduring Ideal in my Zedruu deck). So it's brutal and competitive to no end.
That being said, my most brutal deck (it's even more killer in team multiplayer) is my Nekusar deck. Of course, it's a bit tailor-made for my meta, but that makes it competitive enough to face unfriendly decks. It's got enough board wipes and tutors to be prepared for anything, alternate wincons, and of course, wheels galore:
Why the emphasis of the necessity of giving Nekusar infect when with Hive Mind, 4 other players, and one wheel, you give enough damage to all players to win? Wheel of Fortune x 5 x 7 = 35 damage opponents would get. Even if they didn't die from that, you can simply cast another cheap wheel and game over. On that note, my other wincons:
If dishing out damage by drawing wasn't enough for you, Liliana's Caress and Megrim will finish the job. Not only do you get hurt by drawing, but by discarding as well. And the discard is even more brutal if you have Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in play. If they have a fresh hand during their turn, they better use it or lose it.
Want a more brutal victory? Casting Enter the Infinite with Psychosis Crawler in play. I'm pretty sure dishing out 60-70 damage to each opponent will pretty much kill them.
Besides being brutal on their own in this deck, being paired together is an automatic wincon: Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond.
Keep drawing a lot of cards with all these wheels yet don't have Nekusar, Underworld Dreams, or Kederekt Parasite out? No worries. As long as you have Skirge Familiar, you can simply discard your hand in response, get a fragload of B in your mana pool, and cast either a brutal Exsanguinate for the kill or a brutal Mind Grind for the s**** and giggles if you happen to have Leyline of the Void in play while wheeling.
Have a larger deck than your opponents and Mind Over Matter and Otherworld Atlas in play? Lol, go infinite with draw power and deck them before you get decked.
Wanna recover your cards? Look no further than these bad boys right here: Elixir of Immortality and Feldon's Cane. That's probably how Stella got her groove back, too.
And if that weren't enough, the toolbox is pretty epic as well. Besides the obvious staples for Nekusar such as all the tutors, board wipes, equipment to protect vital creatures, mana rocks, and draw power, let's see what else I got:
Wanna do as many wheels as possible and not lose your hand (for whatever reason)? Library of Leng. And if you wanna make sure - make absolutely sure - to win and have absolutely everyone hate you, please do anything to get Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's emblem out. I'm begging you!
Have a meta full of infinite combos and instant wins? Platinum Angel.
Are your opponents constantly searching their library for mana ramp, cards to screw you over, or their brutal combos? Laugh maniacally as you cast Stranglehold. On that note, you know your playgroup's meta? You know who has cards their deck simply will not run without? Target those cards with Denying Wind. And if you really wanna be evil, copy that sucker as much as possible.
Want something more annoying and foolproof besides your run-of-the-mill board wipe? Cyclonic Rift. Need I remind you the epicness of casting Cyclonic Rift with overload with enough mana left over for a wheel? I think not. And doing that is brutal all on its own, without even considering having a pain-for-draw in play, a pain-for-discard in play, or Leyline of the Void in play.
Have a lot of expensive cards or simply don't want to wheel yet? Wanna take your sweet time and make your opponents sweat? Jhoira of the Ghitu.
Well, that was my presentation. Lots of ideas and suggestions I hope will benefit you all (any suggestions you can throw my way will be much appreciated as well!). Last night and the night before, I unveiled this latest version of my baby (I'd used it before in my playgroup and incessant testing bore this current fruit). Let's just say I won every single game. The first two games I got them unsuspecting because it was a more enhanced version of the build. The other games I won because though everyone was trying to gang up on me without leaving themselves open for others to get them, I still won 'cause they used all their steam to prevent the wheeling and I cast Exquisite BloodandSanguine Bond (with flash) in response to someone losing life. Last night I won via decking and in one game with a brutal Exsanguinate. I tell ya, the only thing holding this bad boy back is speed. Lands are expensive. And all the lands I have that give me the needed Grixis colors, most of them enter the battlefield tapped. This hinders me from the get-go. Not as much as making the deck molasses, but not quick enough to do some carnage before the rest of the players get their anchors in. Any suggestions on that part?
EDIT:
I'm also considering adding Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Sure, he only burns one target (unlike Psychosis Crawler), but he burns creatures as an option and I draw cards. But I don't know what to take out for it.
Also, I tinkered around with my lands and mana base and got the following:
I added Bazaar of Baghdad to always draw two cards (just to accelerate) and even if I have it late game, me drawing 2 cards burns my opponents as well. Thought the price is steep as hell for a whim. I'd probably just take it out and add Arcanis the Omnipotent of Magus of the Bazaar.
There are fewer lands that ETB tapped, and, if they do, they have great abilities (especially Bojuka Bog and Halimar Depths). Also, I can recover these lands by using the guild's bounce lands which even though it might slow my speed, I recover utility lands and each guild land gives TWO mana. The storage lands don't come into play tapped and at least give 1. And, if I have any untapped lands before my turn I can simply add storage counters on them. I never found them as bad as people say.
I also removed Doubling Cube for Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Quite honestly, I've never used the Cube while I played and never had that much land in play either when I was wheeling my opponents' mind away. If instead of the Cube I had Niv-Mizzet, all those games would've ended even sooner.
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DementedKirby: It's nice to know someone else whose meta has a ton of removal and such flying from various sources. I play with 3 people who absolutely love control decks and always play either blue or white. Trying to play decks which are prone to removal is hard but sometimes works very well. I looked at your list and I like it. It's very similar to something everyone runs and I probably will run. Your deck is similar to something I wanted to build using Enter the Infinite, Omniscience, Niv-Mizzet and ways to punish people for drawing/discarding too many cards. I tried to do it with Jeleva and having less wheel effects and more control or creatures who stick out. We aren't as speny when it comes to decks but thanks to everyone having played over the last 10 or so years there's a lot of things people throw out there.
Out of the Mind Seize premade it seems Nekusaur is the better overall general as Jeleva needs to attack to be effective and can whiff on cards.
Have you considered Teferi's Puzzle Box? How about ways to protect artifacts from destruction (my meta has a lot of that)?
How do you set up to go off? Nekusar is sure to get a ton of hate when he hits the board right? Seems a little tough to really set up the wheels, as you don't actually keep your hand.
How do you set up to go off? Nekusar is sure to get a ton of hate when he hits the board right? Seems a little tough to really set up the wheels, as you don't actually keep your hand.
In my experience, Nekusar doesn't get hated off the field immediately because people like drawing cards and the 2 damage a turn is negligible. The hate comes when you get more pain/draw effects in place and start wheeling.
There are some wheel effects that let you keep your hand, like Wheel and Deal, but you're typically better off wheeling your own hand away because you'll just draw into more.
To set up, I will usually play all the useful non-wheel cards in my hand before wheeling, unless I know one of my opponents just tutored for something nasty. The look on an opponent's face when you make them discard/shuffle a tutored answer is priceless.
Agreed. Given youre running this comboy build or a similar one to the OP, and if youre posting it here you should be, dark ritual and friends, while helping storm count (if you run stuff like minds desire), are added gas that allow you to keep wheeling on a combo turn. In fact, i actively tutor for Mana Geyser for this reason. It sets up a big combo turn, and most of our wheels are red based, with exceptions given to windfall, whispering madness, and possibly time reversal and wheel and deal. If nothing else, it lets us cast multiple mana fixing rocks and provides us colorless, which on a combo turn is also needed. (Or past in flames for more fun)
In fact, the most dead draws are typically lands. One build i saw ran seismic assault to pitch lands. I typically pitch lands to mind over matter, another excellent tutor target that wins games with many of our other cards like Temple bell, otherworld atlas, and jace's archivist.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I was on the fence about the cage because I run Past in Flames and Yawgmoth's Will, but the benefit is that I don't have to worry about feeding any reanimate strategies at the same time.
I won a game the other day off of a Chains of Mephistopheles / Teferi's Puzzlebox lock. I was debating taking them out, but I would have been dead in the water if it wasn't for the combo, so its staying for now. Having a bunch of fun with the deck and picked up a Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond for a little faster mana. Tainted Aether came through that game as an all star as well until Cyclonic Rift saved me from a general kill and sealed the game.
Also picked up a Gemstone Caverns, but have not had it in the opening hand yet =(
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I just realized you took the Infect cards out. I must say this makes no sense to me. This is the perfect commander for Infect because the commander is dealing the damage and not another effect or ability.
I disagree completely with your logic that using Infect will cause opponents to remove it faster than combining with wheel effects in general. This commander devastates opponent's strategies, so I refer you to my signature block.
How is Infect less telegraphed than take additional turns or wheel effects?
Also, I don't understand why you add in all the Sorcery speed, single card draw spells. These don't belong in this deck IMO. Brainstorm and instant speed tutors are the only things that should go here.
I was in a 3-person pod where each opponent had cloned my Nekusar in some way. That was interesting.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Nicol Bolas, a balance of Vorthos and PowerUBR
Nath of the Gilt LeafBG
Others
Squee, Goblin of AwesomenessR
Nekusar, the Mindblazer!UBR
Vela the NightcladUB
I used to be a world champion, but then I took a wolf to the knee. And three Galvanic Blasts to the face.
Concerning when returning to Kamigawa would be acceptable
She is one of the very few creatures that I run in my build. Why not double up on the enjoyment. She can also help in case I need to copy something else, but that has yet to come up yet.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
The point is to only use the Infect option when you can deal 10 damage. Why would you even cast it if you cant kill the board? (assuming no responses from your opponents)
Making a deck 'too reliant' on the commander seems out of place to me; the format is built around a commander...
I disagree with this comment, but I do understand your perspective. From my point of view this translates to: competitive decks need win cons that don't require the commander to be part of them.
In this instance, I submit that 1-3 cards are not statistically significant enough to impact deck resilience, but are significant enough to warrant inclusion for the chance to win with only 10 damage dealt on a single trigger.
Because assuming no responses from opponents, considering there are three of them, is a tough thing to assume.
This. The only infect card worth running is tainted strike plus a wheel or two(get to 10). Maybe the enchantment as well, but the equipment is too telegraphed and will get your stuff nuked or knocked out of the game.
To some of the posters here: I want to play in these metas where your friends let you keep your general around for more than a turn or two. Must be nice, not having to worry about board wipes, targeted removal, tucks, etc.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I'll apologize again and say that I haven't really been testing this deck as of late. I still do plan to sit down and play some serious games with it, so please bear with me.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
The whole idea would be Wheel + copy + Tainted Strike. I wouldn't play Tainted Strike hoping the 2 damage a turn would add up. This is the same risk however if you were planning to drop 14 damage in a turn, or play Yawgmoth's Will with a wheel in the GY or mana ramp, why would your opponent allow it? If they have removal they shut it down, if they don't, you win.
I actually just removed the two I did have though, had to make room for some new toys and people in my meta people wouldn't take too kindly to infect wins.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
I think one difference might be playing with strangers, at home or at a retail location (LGS). In my experience, games played with known parties in a home setting generally prefer letting people play the game and win by playing cards, not countering and removing everything so the game takes hours to complete or top-deck mode wins 99% of the time.
I'm probably the only person who runs counter spells in both metas I play in and I generally only use Hinder and Spell Crumple, because I only want to protect my board state or deal with something my deck isn't equipped to handle otherwise.
Playing an Infect card isn't any more or less threatening than Tooth and Nail with the Entwine cost paid or any other game winning card/combo.
The point is, a hand with Prosperity, Tainted Strike, and Windfall (you could even draw either of the last two in the process) and 9 (at least UU and B included), then you win just the same. Sure, there are more variables as you put cards in your opponent's hands, but you've been doing that the last 7+ turns because that is how the deck is built. It's logical to assume that most people will be playing the cards you are giving them, not discarding down to seven every turn so they can wait to see if you win.
From my perspective, the argument is heavily weighted towards including Infect, not excluding it.
If you want to go the infect route with quick kills then go all the way and make it the focus of the deck. Add infect creatures and proliferate artifacts to finish the job Nekusar starts.
I think it would be fun and work well.
Going the "tossed in" infect route; what do you do once you hit people with a draw and hopefully a wheel before he dies? Try to use the few cards in your library to get a another couple poison counters on their draw step? You just waited 9 damage on nothing.
I wish I could play in your metas where a Nekusar with infect will live more than a few turns.
B Lover Since '09 ~
Standard:
meh.
Modern:
Urzatron GR
Vintage:
Contol-Slaver UBR
EDH:
Drana B
Jhoira UR
Savra BG
Turned into:
Adun Oakenshield BGR
Sharuum BUW
Turned into:
Memnarch U
KiKi-Jiki R
Turned into:
Godo R
Turned into:
Aurelia RW
The Mimeoplasm UBG
Rasputin Dreamweaver UW
Turned into:
Geist of Saint Traft -French 1v1 UW
Nekusar UBR
The earlier posts highlight that that is exactly what they are not hoping for. A wheel with a way to copy it + infect is a table kill. Attempting to ping poison turn after turn is not the plan, its to turn 14 damage (2 wheels) into a kill in 1 turn.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Tarnished citadel
Glimmervoid (can this really work? Worst case scenario it's a worse lotus petal)
Tainted lands
Tenzo ice bridge
Let me know what you think, or if I'm just a crazy optimist
I'm working on a more competitive version of the deck that features a control shell with mini locks, combos, and less dependency on Nekusar's thematic chains. I'm going to talk to a few of my buddies about it, test it out, and then post some results. It might take a while but know that I am still slowly working on this deck (as I grow bored of Prossh).
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
My meta does not fool around - and it's not a local store, simply a group of buds who get together to play MtG. Among the decks used are three Progenitus decks (1 runs Blightsteel Colossus, Door to Nothingness, and the like to get instant wins against at least one player at a time, 1 runs Blightsteel Colossus and tries to play Progenitus as fast as possible (yeah, this guy likes to copy other people's decks/ideas - who knows why we even play with him, lol), and the other plays an infinite mana combo in his), 1 runs Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, 1 runs Rafiq of the Many, and I run either Zedruu the Greathearted, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, or Nekusar, the Mindrazer. My meta doesn't allow anyone to do anything. The only way you can get something done is if everyone has already spent its removal/disruption/etc so you can have at least a turn or two to do anything worthwhile (trust me, my Oloro deck runs every kind of board wipe there is) or sneak it in (playing Test of Endurance with flash before my upkeep in my Oloro deck or successfully casting Enduring Ideal in my Zedruu deck). So it's brutal and competitive to no end.
That being said, my most brutal deck (it's even more killer in team multiplayer) is my Nekusar deck. Of course, it's a bit tailor-made for my meta, but that makes it competitive enough to face unfriendly decks. It's got enough board wipes and tutors to be prepared for anything, alternate wincons, and of course, wheels galore:
1 Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Artifacts: 12
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Doubling Cube
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Howling Mine
1 Library of Leng
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Otherworld Atlas
1 Sol Ring
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Creatures: 10
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Jhoira of the Ghitu
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Kederekt Parasite
1 Lighthouse Chronologist
1 Platinum Angel
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Skirge Familiar
1 Uyo, Silent Prophet
Enchantments: 13
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Hive Mind
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Liliana's Caress
1 Megrim
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Mind Unbound
1 Omniscience
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sanguine Bond
1 Stranglehold
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Curse of the Swine
1 Decree of Pain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Denying Wind
1 Diabolic Revelation
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Exsanguinate
1 Increasing Ambition
1 Jokulhaups
1 Mind Grind
1 Prosperity
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Skyscribing
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Whispering Madness
1 Windfall
1 Winds of Change
Planeswalkers: 4
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Lands: 37
1 Akoum Refuge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Bottomless Vault
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Crosis's Catacombs
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dwarven Hold
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Jwar Isle Refuge
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Molten Slagheap
1 Opal Palace
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Sand Silos
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Watery Grave
Why the emphasis of the necessity of giving Nekusar infect when with Hive Mind, 4 other players, and one wheel, you give enough damage to all players to win? Wheel of Fortune x 5 x 7 = 35 damage opponents would get. Even if they didn't die from that, you can simply cast another cheap wheel and game over. On that note, my other wincons:
And if that weren't enough, the toolbox is pretty epic as well. Besides the obvious staples for Nekusar such as all the tutors, board wipes, equipment to protect vital creatures, mana rocks, and draw power, let's see what else I got:
EDIT:
I'm also considering adding Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Sure, he only burns one target (unlike Psychosis Crawler), but he burns creatures as an option and I draw cards. But I don't know what to take out for it.
Also, I tinkered around with my lands and mana base and got the following:
Utility:
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Unstable Frontier
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Graven Caverns
1 Shadowblood Ridge
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Underground River
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Meteor Crater
1 Opal Palace
1 Reflecting Pool
Colorless:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Dimir Acqueduct
Storage:
Blue/Black:
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Molten Slagheap
1 Mirrodin's Core
I added Bazaar of Baghdad to always draw two cards (just to accelerate) and even if I have it late game, me drawing 2 cards burns my opponents as well. Thought the price is steep as hell for a whim. I'd probably just take it out and add Arcanis the Omnipotent of Magus of the Bazaar.
There are fewer lands that ETB tapped, and, if they do, they have great abilities (especially Bojuka Bog and Halimar Depths). Also, I can recover these lands by using the guild's bounce lands which even though it might slow my speed, I recover utility lands and each guild land gives TWO mana. The storage lands don't come into play tapped and at least give 1. And, if I have any untapped lands before my turn I can simply add storage counters on them. I never found them as bad as people say.
I also removed Doubling Cube for Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Quite honestly, I've never used the Cube while I played and never had that much land in play either when I was wheeling my opponents' mind away. If instead of the Cube I had Niv-Mizzet, all those games would've ended even sooner.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Out of the Mind Seize premade it seems Nekusaur is the better overall general as Jeleva needs to attack to be effective and can whiff on cards.
Have you considered Teferi's Puzzle Box? How about ways to protect artifacts from destruction (my meta has a lot of that)?
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
In my experience, Nekusar doesn't get hated off the field immediately because people like drawing cards and the 2 damage a turn is negligible. The hate comes when you get more pain/draw effects in place and start wheeling.
There are some wheel effects that let you keep your hand, like Wheel and Deal, but you're typically better off wheeling your own hand away because you'll just draw into more.
To set up, I will usually play all the useful non-wheel cards in my hand before wheeling, unless I know one of my opponents just tutored for something nasty. The look on an opponent's face when you make them discard/shuffle a tutored answer is priceless.