Every other card is pretty consistent. Either prior to casting Prossh or after. Purphoros is definitely the primary win condition and anything to grab him closes out games.
But I don't like running too many tutors and rather I like using the other cards in the deck.
I feel like the card quality is clearly there but given the decklist it doesn't really feel like it's a Prossh deck. There's not really much synergy going on. I feel like as it stands the deck would be better suited towards Kresh or maybe Karrthus as a commander. For some ideas of really good synergy cards to get the most out of your tokens:
Beastmaster Ascension: attacking with 6 tokens + Prossh makes it active the turn you drop it and interestingly puts exactly 40 power on the board.
Shared Animosity+Coat of Arms: both are very similar to beastmaster ascension but just slightly worse. Still they're both super powerful and make Prossh and company a serious threat without going all-in on voltroning Prossh.
Food Chain: you may or may not be already aware that Prossh+Food Chain is an infinite combo that creates infinite tokens and infinite mana to spend on creature spells. 99% of the time you can drop Food Chain and instantly win if your deck is properly built to take advantage of the combo. If you're intentionally choosing not to play the deck that way then I respect that, if not then you should definitely consider it because it's insanely powerful.
Sadistic Hypnotist: you can make everyone else go into topdeck mode by sacrificing your 0/1s.
Xenagos, the Reveler: his +1 with Prossh on the field is insanely powerful. It's basically Gaea's Cradle #2 except that it costs 4 mana and generates red and green, definitely worth a spot imo.
Green Sun's Zenith: it's really good for obvious reasons.
What you could remove maybe is Profane Command for one. It seems really slow and spending an entire turn on it does not seems worthwhile. Maybe primal command would be better or something cheaper like beast within if you want spot removal? Nissa's expedition seems weak to me. It ramps and has convoke which is sweet, but it's kinda backwards in that way. The goal of the deck is to ramp into Prossh whereas this card is really only good once you've already cast Prossh. If you were playing a lower curve so you could convoke without Prossh it might still be good but as is it seems iffy. Also, playing Decree of Pain, Damnation, and Toxic Deluge seems like a little much. Generally Prossh is the aggressor and if you're wrathing then you're probably in bad shape. I might stick to Deluge and Decree of Pain because deluge is amazing and decree can draw lots of cards, but cut the damnation; I think it's too much.
That's what I might do. Here's a link to my current decklist, it's kinda restricted by a budget and some difficulty finding rarer cards but minus obvious upgrades like buffing tutors and adding cradle+survival of the fittest it's mostly what I would build. Hope at least some of that helps!
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
Run most of those cards suggested. Your deck needs back up plans, and synergy, and these cards mentioned provide that. Beastmaster Ascension can be activated in one turn, and is amazingly powerful, and offers another way to win. Same with Shared Animosity and Coat of Arms. They work very well with your deck, and while Coat of Arms may help an opponent, it'll help you a lot more, especially if you have 20 kobolds on your side of the field.
Ok, so the token strategy might have received some resistance because one black player at my table is now running illness in the ranks.
Which will probably catch on with others.
The ETB and death triggers are not effected by this, but swinging and blocking are and also slows down aggression considerably until i drop the counter.
So to counter I am running Gaea's Anthem for a cool back and forth interaction.
Another thing to think about if one goes for heavy token interaction with Prossh.
I had Purphoros in my opening hand. I ramped into him and started laying down pain.
I had a Korozda Guildmage in hand and was trying for a Sac Prossh -> Play Prossh for triggers but my opponent couldn't keep up regardless.
He ramped into Hivelord but my damage triggers couldn't be avoided by indestructible creatures.
I still like that that option exists even if it takes an extra turn.
Made me wish I had an instant Food Chain like effect that I could use once to Sac and cast Prossh again, that was
much cheaper than Food Chain and its package.
Mirror match where my opponent dropped Sol Ring and Ashnod Altar :/ ... I had a turn one BoP but got land screwed after land #4 so I was very behind.
I had a Black sun Zenith and Sudden Demise in hand so I was hoping for my opponent to over extend. He did, playing Ogre battle Driver, Garruk, and Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder. I had to wipe twice over two turns, also taking out his Prossh once, but not before getting smashed in the face. He had a ridiculous amount of mana, and played ... an XXBB(?) tutor. He dropped Purphoros. Next turn he had enough mana to cast doubling season and cast Prossh. I responded by blowing up doubling season with Beast Within. Better to take two + 18 rather than 34. I had 4 life. I tried to Tooth and Nail with entwine...but had nothing in my deck to get the win. Best I could come up with was Avenger + Orge Battle Driver for ... twenty something damage. Lost but went out with a bang.
He got his ramping Sliver out, while I got LLanowar elves and Wood Elves. His next slivers were (Flash) (Take damage when they attack).
I cast Prossh 4 times that game, each time he got hit by an instant Removal, or Sliver removal (Sac a sliver to destroy target creature.
I was having a tough time getting by his indestructible creatures, but I had nearly 30 tokens by the end of the game and he couldn't get through.
I was able to Hooded Hydra + Pattern of Rebirth + Korozda Guildmage after an hour of gameplay.
Not one creature in my deck could utilize how many tokens I had in play that turn. So I searched out Purphoros.
Next turn I tried casting Beastmaster Ascension. It was destroyed, so I pumped with Purphoros twice and swung in for a kill.
In all these were some very fun games. Probably the best I have had so far. I realize that Cratorhoof is pretty essential. Tokens are great
when they are ETB or dying but I need a creature I can tutor for that when it comes in, it can effect the tokens that are already down.
Not sure if I am pushing limits of a budget deck now though. I suppose Craterhoof isn't too big of a dent in cost.
EDIT. Found Burnt Offering. Maybe replace Guildmage for this.
What are your thoughts about Copper Myr/Iron Myr/Leaden Myr
Those would enable a T1 Land,SolRing,Dude where as without you would normally go into T1 Land, Dude or T1 Land Sol Ring,Skullclamp/ExpeditionMap/Lightning Greaves
They are pretty lackluster. Birds of Paradise is the best creature that does this kind of effect for 1 mana, and I'm not a major fan of playing that card. The major problem with the Myr is that they are creatures, and artifacts. They die to everything, even on turn 1 there are a few things that can take them out. Nature's Claim, Crumble for example. They are a fairly unreliable source of mana acceleration as they're likely to eat mass removal by turn 3-5 when you really need that 6th mana. Additionally, they don't do much later in the game either, they are just a 0/1 creature that comes down and doesn't add to the board. Finally, they only tap for one color of mana, which really sucks if you're desperate for a particular color. I'd rather pay 3 for a Darksteel Ignot type card to be able to tap for any color of mana, even at the cost of some skullclamping. We have TONS of ways to get skullclamp running though, so there's not much of a reason to add X/1's just to skullclamp. I do agree, they would be great on turn 1, coupled with a Sol Ring, but that's not going to happen very often.
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Interesting question. I don't think it's top 5, there are degenerate decks out there that Prossh just won't be able to keep up with. Not saying it can't win games against these decks, but it's a lot more difficult.
It's a powerful combo deck, and can also be a good synergistic deck, I'd probably put it in the top 20 at least, don't know about top 10. It's hard for me to say as I don't play in a very cutthroat meta.
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Have to say the primer was very well done and a great read it actually made me go grab my Prossh to try this out when i next get the chance to play EDH.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
So hey, I play in a pretty cutthroat meta and took a look at both of your lists, but couldn't decide which would be better. I play against Animar, Derevi, Sedris, Maelstrom Wanderer, and Edric. All are pretty competitive, so I'm looking for a list that aims to win as much as possible. Is a mix the right way to go? And if so, what should be in, and what doesn't make the overall cut? My only other deck is Azami, so I want to try a nonblue general that is still competitive.
Have to say the primer was very well done and a great read it actually made me go grab my Prossh to try this out when i next get the chance to play EDH.
So hey, I play in a pretty cutthroat meta and took a look at both of your lists, but couldn't decide which would be better. I play against Animar, Derevi, Sedris, Maelstrom Wanderer, and Edric. All are pretty competitive, so I'm looking for a list that aims to win as much as possible. Is a mix the right way to go? And if so, what should be in, and what doesn't make the overall cut? My only other deck is Azami, so I want to try a nonblue general that is still competitive.
I think both of our decks are pretty equal. It comes down to playstyle preferences. My deck is combo/control, and can prevent my opponents from doing stuff in the early game to hopefully set up a win early, or hold off and get a win mid game. It's a little trickier to play, but if you treat it a bit like a Jund control deck it, then you may like it more. Feverous has what I would call an aggro/combo deck. He has the removal needed, but his deck is built to deal out threat after threat continuously, until he wins or his opponents can't keep up. I'd say his deck is slightly better, but it's also a little more expensive to build. Mine really just has the core cards, and a few expensive lands. Feverous runs some expensive tutors, and other goodies. That's why we built a dual-primer, because we thought our decks were both good, but different enough to warrant two different primers. We let you guys make the decision which deck you would rather play, as their both good, but it does come down to what YOU want to do.
I would avoid mixing the decks, as you'll lose what makes each unique. There are other Prossh builds floating around that I've liked as well. It really depends on how your meta is built. You may find that my deck is very weak to counterspells, and want to build a more attrition style deck, like Feverous. Or you may find that your meta powers out threats early, and my deck can usually handle early threats in an efficient way.
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"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
Hey all. What do you think of a slower, grindier Prossh that runs Mikeaus combos? It can combo with Triskelion or a sac outlet + Woodfall Primus / Deathbringer Thoctor. Let me know.
It's pretty good. It's not really my style, but I think it's a very good option. I'd probably run a more creature focused build, as the Mikeaus combo requires Tooth and Nail and other creature tutors, and why not throw in a creature tool box while you're doing all that creature tutoring. The deck can probably be built into a formidable and reliable build that is a little slower, but is much more consistent.
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"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
So, I'm a little new to posting on here. My apologies for not following protocol if I miss something. I am wondering what your thoughts are on a couple of the recently spoiled cards from Fate Reforged.
First, I feel like a good substitute for goblin bombardment would be Outpost Siege. I realize it costs more, but it has a couple nice things about it. 1.) It's a passive effect that will trigger any time you use Prossh's ability. "Oh you take 17 damage this turn instead of 11!" This is also kind of a reverse Purphoros effect when comboing with food chain, which is doubly nice if you have good ol' purphy out too. I don't mind paying 1 colorless more for a boggart shenanigans that works with all creatures! lol 2.) It's alternate ability could prove useful if needed in a pinch.
Secondly, this is more of a general ramp card, not just for Prossh: Frontier Siege. Its 1 more colorless than some of the creatures and sorcery ramps but it has recursion, not once but twice per turn! I feel like this is definitely worth looking into. Also, the alternate ability is alright if you needed it for some reason, maybe turning Prossh into a board wiper?
Next, Ugin! He is 8 to cast yes. But, if you run Doubling Season I feel like he is just going to swing games in your favor more often then not. Heck, even without Doubling Season he seems good. Recurring lightning bolt? check! Exile most things on the board on the turn he comes out? Sure! For -X where X=0 he will wipe out all tokens if your getting overwhelmed, etc. I think he is a good include if you have a good ramp package.
Lastly, Crux of Fate. I know it's 5 CMC, but I feel like it's worth it to keep Prossh on the board after pumping him and clearing the way....Just pick the dude without any dragons to swing at! lol. Idk. I think it's worth it for a good, one-sided board wipe. I may include it when it comes out.
Thoughts and opinions on why/why not are encouraged. Also, if you notice any other cards in the either Khans or Fate that should be included please mention it. (I know I was eyeing that Atarka, World Render guy, but I think he's too much and too situational)
So, I'm a little new to posting on here. My apologies for not following protocol if I miss something. I am wondering what your thoughts are on a couple of the recently spoiled cards from Fate Reforged.
First, I feel like a good substitute for goblin bombardment would be Outpost Siege. I realize it costs more, but it has a couple nice things about it. 1.) It's a passive effect that will trigger any time you use Prossh's ability. "Oh you take 17 damage this turn instead of 11!" This is also kind of a reverse Purphoros effect when comboing with food chain, which is doubly nice if you have good ol' purphy out too. I don't mind paying 1 colorless more for a boggart shenanigans that works with all creatures! lol 2.) It's alternate ability could prove useful if needed in a pinch.
Secondly, this is more of a general ramp card, not just for Prossh: Frontier Siege. Its 1 more colorless than some of the creatures and sorcery ramps but it has recursion, not once but twice per turn! I feel like this is definitely worth looking into. Also, the alternate ability is alright if you needed it for some reason, maybe turning Prossh into a board wiper?
Next, Ugin! He is 8 to cast yes. But, if you run Doubling Season I feel like he is just going to swing games in your favor more often then not. Heck, even without Doubling Season he seems good. Recurring lightning bolt? check! Exile most things on the board on the turn he comes out? Sure! For -X where X=0 he will wipe out all tokens if your getting overwhelmed, etc. I think he is a good include if you have a good ramp package.
Lastly, Crux of Fate. I know it's 5 CMC, but I feel like it's worth it to keep Prossh on the board after pumping him and clearing the way....Just pick the dude without any dragons to swing at! lol. Idk. I think it's worth it for a good, one-sided board wipe. I may include it when it comes out.
Thoughts and opinions on why/why not are encouraged. Also, if you notice any other cards in the either Khans or Fate that should be included please mention it. (I know I was eyeing that Atarka, World Render guy, but I think he's too much and too situational)
I plan on doing a set review today, sometime. I do feel outpost siege is a good card, but it's not a replacement for Goblin Bombardment, it's too expensive. However, it's an excellent addition to the deck as an alternative way to win. Nothing wrong with putting 3-4 combo cards in the deck. I'd replace vicious shadows with it over Goblin Bombardment.
Ugin's good, but at 8 mana I'm a little hesitant. Wouldn't fault anyone for playing him though.
If you like mass board wipes like Crux of Fate, then it's fine, I'm very happy with the "controllable" removal I'm running in the form of Black Sun's Zenith, and Pernicious Deed.
your primer has helped me alot in building this deck - I did go a slightly different way and just wanted to say thanks by commiting my own deck here.
I did go the ramp way with creatures, due to the fact that my second winchance is Coat of Arms/Craterhoof/Shared Animosity/Beastmaster Ascension. Manaweft Sliver / Gemhide Sliver is the budget way to go - one will be replaced when sylvan caryatid roates out of standard.
Thanks for dropping by. Deck looks pretty solid. The mana dork strategy (i.e,. Lanowar Elves seems to be a little faster, but it's also a little less reliable. I really hate getting a board wipe on turn four and losing one or two mana dorks. As a result I tend to like Wood Elves effects more, and there are plenty of creatures that search for lands and put them into play. It's slower, but actually getting the land is helpful.
Of the cards in your mayble list, I'd add for sure: Regrowth, and Noxious REvival. Nothing better than getting cards back that you really want to use again. Work those into the deck.
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Okay, first set review I've done for this primer, as this is the first set with a couple of cards that I feel I can talk about, also it's the first set I've had time relatively close to the set release to actually go through and take a look.
Maybe cards - These cards are possibly playable, but probably don't fit into the deck. These are great cards to look at if you're just starting to get into magic, or have a very small collection.
This card reads pretty well, but I think it's too expensive and slow. I'm not a huge fan of planeswalkers in EDH, but a few are good enough to play. I really think that is limited to Xenagos, the Reveler for Prossh. At 8 mana I think it's too slow for Prossh, if the game goes long its value goes up, but I want to win my game fast. I do think this card is playable in EDH, and as a result if you have a slower Prossh deck then I don't think this is a bad card for the deck. Lightning bolt is not a very great effect in EDH, and I'm not paying eight mana for it, even if I can use it repeatedly. The pernicious deed effect is really nice, but I don't think it can be abused enough to really warrant the slot. Overall it's a powerful card, and certainly fine for EDH, but I don't think it's great in Prossh. Maybe if your deck is ramp heavy, and not focused on combo, it is a decent addition, but not if you want to go all out.
At 3BB this actually isn't too bad. It's even better as it triggers at the end of each opponent's end step. This means you can get some value out of it before it gets removed, and it can also be used to gain some political leverage with another player. The effect is pretty underwhelming, but it's useful against aggro/creature heavy decks, and it won't affect us at all! In the end it's not really what we want in our deck, but it is perfectly playable until you can get a good replacement.
Interesting removal option here. I don't think it's playable, but if you can work out a way to abuse it, it certainly has its uses. You can probably use Prossh and Goblin Bombardment to quickly wipe the board, or deal some damage to other players. Don't think our deck is really built to abuse this effect, but it's something to perhaps consider.
Flamerush Rider
I can see some uses for this card as well. Pair it with Craterhoof Behemoth? Seems a little win-more in my deck, but if you have a lot of threatening creatures in a more creature-focused Prossh deck this may be something to consider. It's probably not playable, but I like the effect, and it can be useful. Don't expect to Dash it much though as Prossh should never be built as a heavy red deck, but it's a bonus if you somehow manage to get three red.
Mob Rule
Conditional Insurrection that is easier to cast? Probably not good enough, but if you want an extra late game win condition, this is probably an okay choice.
I don't think either effect is really worth a slot in a competitive build, but both sides do have some use so it's worth looking at. At 3G it's not too overcosted, and I do think the Khans ability is a little stronger. That extra GG is attractive, and can lead to an earlier combo, but overall, it's not going to be useful enough for me to cut cards to slot this in. This one will require me to play it to see how strong it really is, but I suspect it's on the weaker side. The Dragons side is interesting with Prossh, as you can do some serious damage to someone's board by playing Prossh a few times in a single turn, but at that point we are psuedo-comboing, or actually comboing and we can be doing better things.
Playable - Perfectly fine additions to the deck, but not the best choices. These are going to be meta-game choices above all else, and I would not consider them auto-includes.
Decently costed black mass removal is always nice, you can even avoid Prossh, or even kill Prossh if you need to. I'm not a huge fan of mass removal in this deck as we love our swarms of creatures, but if you're desperate for this kind of effect this is certainly good enough to consider, especially if you cannot afford Damnation.
Very playable - These cards can be argued as an auto-include, but that may not always be the case. These cards fit perfectly into what we are trying to do, and you should have a good reason not to play it.
Outpost Siege
COMBO-LICIOUS! A pretty cheap alternative to Vicious Shadows which Outpost Siege will be replacing. All we care about when comboing is the trigger, not how much damage is being dealt. This card isn't as good as Purphoros, God of the Forge, as it's not fetchable with creature search. Still, an excellent redundancy card in a combo focused deck. Probably an auto-include, but if you can win with Purphoros, and Goblin Bombardment enough, then I won't fault you for leaving this one out. The Khans side of this is not completely useless, going to be playing it for Dragons 99.95% of the time, but could be useful to dig dig dig for Food Chain or card drawing.
Shamanic Revelation
Yah, playable. It's probably better than Soul's Majesty and it is better than Skullmulcher as well. Depending on your build you can forget the Ferocious part, but it's a nice addition. This card also offers us very valuable card drawing, which is hard in Jund colors. I'd say it's a perfect addition to the other options, if you can find the slot, if not I'm going to cut Soul's Majesty.
So, overall, we get some nice options for the deck. Hope that was helpful! If I forgot a card, I apologize. If a card isn't listed here I don't think the card is playable at all, sorry, I'm picky. Thanks for reading!
I see the post on here about Frontier Siege and I think it's important to note that adding GG to your pool happens at BOTH of your mainphases, ie 1 and 2. So basically you can pay 4 mana to get GGGG on every other turn and GG on the second main phase of the turn it's played. That makes the card much, much more powerful. Still not something I'd necessarily consider auto-include, but nonetheless a seriously powerful ramp spell.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
Just bought Xenagos, the Reveler, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and a couple other cheap goodies so I could put this list together. Would love some feedback from y'all. This is my first attempt at an EDH deck and I'm pretty excited to try it out. I know I don't have almost any tutors in here but my budget is pretty tight so I'll have to wait for some deals on the more expensive options. My thought is to just draw so much that I run into what I need. Big thanks to bighaben and Feverous for this great primer thread!
I think it looks really good. The lack of tutors isn't too bad since you have a really nice, and aggressive core. There are a few cards that I think can be replaced, but overall this is a nice list that I don't think needs much more than some fine tuning. One thing your deck is missing that I think is almost required is Tooth and Nail, your creature focus begs for it! It'd be the first tutor card I'd go for.
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Thank you very much for this primer. I'm more drawn to combo/control so I made a deck similar to bighaben's. Still working on getting those dual lands but the deck's been doing good so far. I like drawing a lot of cards and Life's Legacy and Plunge into Darkness have been very awesome in my last couple of games. They only cost 2CMC which allows me to dig for combo pieces and go off the same turn.
Thank you very much for this primer. I'm more drawn to combo/control so I made a deck similar to bighaben's. Still working on getting those dual lands but the deck's been doing good so far. I like drawing a lot of cards and Life's Legacy and Plunge into Darkness have been very awesome in my last couple of games. They only cost 2CMC which allows me to dig for combo pieces and go off the same turn.
Looks really good. Glad you like the deck and play style. It's still one of my favorite decks. I do like Life's Legacy but have always been hesitant to add it due to the small amount of large creatures I play. For me, it's pretty much just Prossh that gets the axe to draw a bajillion cards. Still, I see a lot of potential with it, which means I'll take a closer to look at it, maybe take it for a spin some time.
I don't play Prossh, but what are your thoughts on Boltwing Marauder? He seems really good in there.
Yah, it's good. I saw it but almost instantly thought "win more", but the more I think about it the more I think it can actually be useful at certain points in the game. Will really be an excellent budget option, but will have to see if it makes the cut in a really tuned deck. I think it will likely fall somewhere in between. I would not fault anyone for trying it out.
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Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Shaman of Forgotten Ways may warrant a spot in the deck. I'm just not sure what to take out. Sidisi is a little costly for a Diabolic Intent, and I'm just a bit hesitant on the shaman because I can lose the ramp post-wrath, and I can only use him for creature cards (which aren't a lot in the deck). The Biorhythm is a nice alt wincon though.
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Every other card is pretty consistent. Either prior to casting Prossh or after. Purphoros is definitely the primary win condition and anything to grab him closes out games.
But I don't like running too many tutors and rather I like using the other cards in the deck.
Beastmaster Ascension: attacking with 6 tokens + Prossh makes it active the turn you drop it and interestingly puts exactly 40 power on the board.
Shared Animosity+Coat of Arms: both are very similar to beastmaster ascension but just slightly worse. Still they're both super powerful and make Prossh and company a serious threat without going all-in on voltroning Prossh.
Food Chain: you may or may not be already aware that Prossh+Food Chain is an infinite combo that creates infinite tokens and infinite mana to spend on creature spells. 99% of the time you can drop Food Chain and instantly win if your deck is properly built to take advantage of the combo. If you're intentionally choosing not to play the deck that way then I respect that, if not then you should definitely consider it because it's insanely powerful.
Sadistic Hypnotist: you can make everyone else go into topdeck mode by sacrificing your 0/1s.
Xenagos, the Reveler: his +1 with Prossh on the field is insanely powerful. It's basically Gaea's Cradle #2 except that it costs 4 mana and generates red and green, definitely worth a spot imo.
Green Sun's Zenith: it's really good for obvious reasons.
What you could remove maybe is Profane Command for one. It seems really slow and spending an entire turn on it does not seems worthwhile. Maybe primal command would be better or something cheaper like beast within if you want spot removal? Nissa's expedition seems weak to me. It ramps and has convoke which is sweet, but it's kinda backwards in that way. The goal of the deck is to ramp into Prossh whereas this card is really only good once you've already cast Prossh. If you were playing a lower curve so you could convoke without Prossh it might still be good but as is it seems iffy. Also, playing Decree of Pain, Damnation, and Toxic Deluge seems like a little much. Generally Prossh is the aggressor and if you're wrathing then you're probably in bad shape. I might stick to Deluge and Decree of Pain because deluge is amazing and decree can draw lots of cards, but cut the damnation; I think it's too much.
That's what I might do. Here's a link to my current decklist, it's kinda restricted by a budget and some difficulty finding rarer cards but minus obvious upgrades like buffing tutors and adding cradle+survival of the fittest it's mostly what I would build. Hope at least some of that helps!
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Xenagos, the Reveler has a very good first ability, that is why we use it.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Which will probably catch on with others.
The ETB and death triggers are not effected by this, but swinging and blocking are and also slows down aggression considerably until i drop the counter.
So to counter I am running Gaea's Anthem for a cool back and forth interaction.
Another thing to think about if one goes for heavy token interaction with Prossh.
EDIT.
Got to play three games today.
First game: Me Prossh, Skyraider of Kher Opponent: Sliver Hivelord
I had Purphoros in my opening hand. I ramped into him and started laying down pain.
I had a Korozda Guildmage in hand and was trying for a Sac Prossh -> Play Prossh for triggers but my opponent couldn't keep up regardless.
He ramped into Hivelord but my damage triggers couldn't be avoided by indestructible creatures.
I still like that that option exists even if it takes an extra turn.
Made me wish I had an instant Food Chain like effect that I could use once to Sac and cast Prossh again, that was
much cheaper than Food Chain and its package.
Second Game: Me Prossh, Skyraider of Kher Opponent: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Mirror match where my opponent dropped Sol Ring and Ashnod Altar :/ ... I had a turn one BoP but got land screwed after land #4 so I was very behind.
I had a Black sun Zenith and Sudden Demise in hand so I was hoping for my opponent to over extend. He did, playing Ogre battle Driver, Garruk, and Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder. I had to wipe twice over two turns, also taking out his Prossh once, but not before getting smashed in the face. He had a ridiculous amount of mana, and played ... an XXBB(?) tutor. He dropped Purphoros. Next turn he had enough mana to cast doubling season and cast Prossh. I responded by blowing up doubling season with Beast Within. Better to take two + 18 rather than 34. I had 4 life. I tried to Tooth and Nail with entwine...but had nothing in my deck to get the win. Best I could come up with was Avenger + Orge Battle Driver for ... twenty something damage. Lost but went out with a bang.
Third Game: Me Prossh, Skyraider of Kher Opponent: Sliver Hivelord
He got his ramping Sliver out, while I got LLanowar elves and Wood Elves. His next slivers were (Flash) (Take damage when they attack).
I cast Prossh 4 times that game, each time he got hit by an instant Removal, or Sliver removal (Sac a sliver to destroy target creature.
I was having a tough time getting by his indestructible creatures, but I had nearly 30 tokens by the end of the game and he couldn't get through.
I was able to Hooded Hydra + Pattern of Rebirth + Korozda Guildmage after an hour of gameplay.
Not one creature in my deck could utilize how many tokens I had in play that turn. So I searched out Purphoros.
Next turn I tried casting Beastmaster Ascension. It was destroyed, so I pumped with Purphoros twice and swung in for a kill.
In all these were some very fun games. Probably the best I have had so far. I realize that Cratorhoof is pretty essential. Tokens are great
when they are ETB or dying but I need a creature I can tutor for that when it comes in, it can effect the tokens that are already down.
Not sure if I am pushing limits of a budget deck now though. I suppose Craterhoof isn't too big of a dent in cost.
EDIT. Found Burnt Offering. Maybe replace Guildmage for this.
They are pretty lackluster. Birds of Paradise is the best creature that does this kind of effect for 1 mana, and I'm not a major fan of playing that card. The major problem with the Myr is that they are creatures, and artifacts. They die to everything, even on turn 1 there are a few things that can take them out. Nature's Claim, Crumble for example. They are a fairly unreliable source of mana acceleration as they're likely to eat mass removal by turn 3-5 when you really need that 6th mana. Additionally, they don't do much later in the game either, they are just a 0/1 creature that comes down and doesn't add to the board. Finally, they only tap for one color of mana, which really sucks if you're desperate for a particular color. I'd rather pay 3 for a Darksteel Ignot type card to be able to tap for any color of mana, even at the cost of some skullclamping. We have TONS of ways to get skullclamp running though, so there's not much of a reason to add X/1's just to skullclamp. I do agree, they would be great on turn 1, coupled with a Sol Ring, but that's not going to happen very often.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
but in the most competitive circles, would you consider Prossh a top 10 general? Top 5? Top 20?
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
It's a powerful combo deck, and can also be a good synergistic deck, I'd probably put it in the top 20 at least, don't know about top 10. It's hard for me to say as I don't play in a very cutthroat meta.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I'm glad to hear this, thanks for dropping by!
I think both of our decks are pretty equal. It comes down to playstyle preferences. My deck is combo/control, and can prevent my opponents from doing stuff in the early game to hopefully set up a win early, or hold off and get a win mid game. It's a little trickier to play, but if you treat it a bit like a Jund control deck it, then you may like it more. Feverous has what I would call an aggro/combo deck. He has the removal needed, but his deck is built to deal out threat after threat continuously, until he wins or his opponents can't keep up. I'd say his deck is slightly better, but it's also a little more expensive to build. Mine really just has the core cards, and a few expensive lands. Feverous runs some expensive tutors, and other goodies. That's why we built a dual-primer, because we thought our decks were both good, but different enough to warrant two different primers. We let you guys make the decision which deck you would rather play, as their both good, but it does come down to what YOU want to do.
I would avoid mixing the decks, as you'll lose what makes each unique. There are other Prossh builds floating around that I've liked as well. It really depends on how your meta is built. You may find that my deck is very weak to counterspells, and want to build a more attrition style deck, like Feverous. Or you may find that your meta powers out threats early, and my deck can usually handle early threats in an efficient way.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
First, I feel like a good substitute for goblin bombardment would be Outpost Siege. I realize it costs more, but it has a couple nice things about it. 1.) It's a passive effect that will trigger any time you use Prossh's ability. "Oh you take 17 damage this turn instead of 11!" This is also kind of a reverse Purphoros effect when comboing with food chain, which is doubly nice if you have good ol' purphy out too. I don't mind paying 1 colorless more for a boggart shenanigans that works with all creatures! lol 2.) It's alternate ability could prove useful if needed in a pinch.
Secondly, this is more of a general ramp card, not just for Prossh: Frontier Siege. Its 1 more colorless than some of the creatures and sorcery ramps but it has recursion, not once but twice per turn! I feel like this is definitely worth looking into. Also, the alternate ability is alright if you needed it for some reason, maybe turning Prossh into a board wiper?
Next, Ugin! He is 8 to cast yes. But, if you run Doubling Season I feel like he is just going to swing games in your favor more often then not. Heck, even without Doubling Season he seems good. Recurring lightning bolt? check! Exile most things on the board on the turn he comes out? Sure! For -X where X=0 he will wipe out all tokens if your getting overwhelmed, etc. I think he is a good include if you have a good ramp package.
Lastly, Crux of Fate. I know it's 5 CMC, but I feel like it's worth it to keep Prossh on the board after pumping him and clearing the way....Just pick the dude without any dragons to swing at! lol. Idk. I think it's worth it for a good, one-sided board wipe. I may include it when it comes out.
Thoughts and opinions on why/why not are encouraged. Also, if you notice any other cards in the either Khans or Fate that should be included please mention it. (I know I was eyeing that Atarka, World Render guy, but I think he's too much and too situational)
I plan on doing a set review today, sometime. I do feel outpost siege is a good card, but it's not a replacement for Goblin Bombardment, it's too expensive. However, it's an excellent addition to the deck as an alternative way to win. Nothing wrong with putting 3-4 combo cards in the deck. I'd replace vicious shadows with it over Goblin Bombardment.
Ugin's good, but at 8 mana I'm a little hesitant. Wouldn't fault anyone for playing him though.
If you like mass board wipes like Crux of Fate, then it's fine, I'm very happy with the "controllable" removal I'm running in the form of Black Sun's Zenith, and Pernicious Deed.
Thanks for dropping by. Deck looks pretty solid. The mana dork strategy (i.e,. Lanowar Elves seems to be a little faster, but it's also a little less reliable. I really hate getting a board wipe on turn four and losing one or two mana dorks. As a result I tend to like Wood Elves effects more, and there are plenty of creatures that search for lands and put them into play. It's slower, but actually getting the land is helpful.
Of the cards in your mayble list, I'd add for sure: Regrowth, and Noxious REvival. Nothing better than getting cards back that you really want to use again. Work those into the deck.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Okay, first set review I've done for this primer, as this is the first set with a couple of cards that I feel I can talk about, also it's the first set I've had time relatively close to the set release to actually go through and take a look.
Maybe cards - These cards are possibly playable, but probably don't fit into the deck. These are great cards to look at if you're just starting to get into magic, or have a very small collection.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
This card reads pretty well, but I think it's too expensive and slow. I'm not a huge fan of planeswalkers in EDH, but a few are good enough to play. I really think that is limited to Xenagos, the Reveler for Prossh. At 8 mana I think it's too slow for Prossh, if the game goes long its value goes up, but I want to win my game fast. I do think this card is playable in EDH, and as a result if you have a slower Prossh deck then I don't think this is a bad card for the deck. Lightning bolt is not a very great effect in EDH, and I'm not paying eight mana for it, even if I can use it repeatedly. The pernicious deed effect is really nice, but I don't think it can be abused enough to really warrant the slot. Overall it's a powerful card, and certainly fine for EDH, but I don't think it's great in Prossh. Maybe if your deck is ramp heavy, and not focused on combo, it is a decent addition, but not if you want to go all out.
Archfiend of Depravity
At 3BB this actually isn't too bad. It's even better as it triggers at the end of each opponent's end step. This means you can get some value out of it before it gets removed, and it can also be used to gain some political leverage with another player. The effect is pretty underwhelming, but it's useful against aggro/creature heavy decks, and it won't affect us at all! In the end it's not really what we want in our deck, but it is perfectly playable until you can get a good replacement.
Arcbond
Interesting removal option here. I don't think it's playable, but if you can work out a way to abuse it, it certainly has its uses. You can probably use Prossh and Goblin Bombardment to quickly wipe the board, or deal some damage to other players. Don't think our deck is really built to abuse this effect, but it's something to perhaps consider.
Flamerush Rider
I can see some uses for this card as well. Pair it with Craterhoof Behemoth? Seems a little win-more in my deck, but if you have a lot of threatening creatures in a more creature-focused Prossh deck this may be something to consider. It's probably not playable, but I like the effect, and it can be useful. Don't expect to Dash it much though as Prossh should never be built as a heavy red deck, but it's a bonus if you somehow manage to get three red.
Mob Rule
Conditional Insurrection that is easier to cast? Probably not good enough, but if you want an extra late game win condition, this is probably an okay choice.
Frontier Siege
I don't think either effect is really worth a slot in a competitive build, but both sides do have some use so it's worth looking at. At 3G it's not too overcosted, and I do think the Khans ability is a little stronger. That extra GG is attractive, and can lead to an earlier combo, but overall, it's not going to be useful enough for me to cut cards to slot this in. This one will require me to play it to see how strong it really is, but I suspect it's on the weaker side. The Dragons side is interesting with Prossh, as you can do some serious damage to someone's board by playing Prossh a few times in a single turn, but at that point we are psuedo-comboing, or actually comboing and we can be doing better things.
Playable - Perfectly fine additions to the deck, but not the best choices. These are going to be meta-game choices above all else, and I would not consider them auto-includes.
Crux of Fate
Decently costed black mass removal is always nice, you can even avoid Prossh, or even kill Prossh if you need to. I'm not a huge fan of mass removal in this deck as we love our swarms of creatures, but if you're desperate for this kind of effect this is certainly good enough to consider, especially if you cannot afford Damnation.
Very playable - These cards can be argued as an auto-include, but that may not always be the case. These cards fit perfectly into what we are trying to do, and you should have a good reason not to play it.
Outpost Siege
COMBO-LICIOUS! A pretty cheap alternative to Vicious Shadows which Outpost Siege will be replacing. All we care about when comboing is the trigger, not how much damage is being dealt. This card isn't as good as Purphoros, God of the Forge, as it's not fetchable with creature search. Still, an excellent redundancy card in a combo focused deck. Probably an auto-include, but if you can win with Purphoros, and Goblin Bombardment enough, then I won't fault you for leaving this one out. The Khans side of this is not completely useless, going to be playing it for Dragons 99.95% of the time, but could be useful to dig dig dig for Food Chain or card drawing.
Shamanic Revelation
Yah, playable. It's probably better than Soul's Majesty and it is better than Skullmulcher as well. Depending on your build you can forget the Ferocious part, but it's a nice addition. This card also offers us very valuable card drawing, which is hard in Jund colors. I'd say it's a perfect addition to the other options, if you can find the slot, if not I'm going to cut Soul's Majesty.
So, overall, we get some nice options for the deck. Hope that was helpful! If I forgot a card, I apologize. If a card isn't listed here I don't think the card is playable at all, sorry, I'm picky. Thanks for reading!
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Most of the dudes in /r/CompetitiveEDH seem to agree that Prossh is a Tier 1 general: http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/2om9oa/general_tiers/
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Godo, Bandit Warlord EDH
Angus Mackenzie Control/Beat
Reanimator Legacy
Burn Legacy
Abzan aggro Standard
1x defense of the heart
1x fecundity
1x food chain
1x grave pact
1x greater good
1x mana echoes
1x necropotence
1x pattern of rebirth
1x shared animosity
1x akroma's memorial
1x ashnod's altar
1x carnage altar
1x darksteel ingot
1x coalition relic
1x coat of arms
1x lightning greaves
1x phyrexian altar
1x skullclamp
1x slate of ancestry
1x anger
1x birds of paradise
1x bloom tender
1x craterhoof behemoth
1x deranged hermit
1x devoted druid
1x disciple of bolas
1x Duplicant
1x elves of deep shadow
1x elvish mystic
1x eternal witness
1x fauna shaman
1x fyndhorn elves
1x goblin sharpshooter
1x krenko, mob boss
1x llanowar elves
1x ogre battledriver
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x sakura-tribe elder
1x siege-gang commander
1x silklash spider
1x skullmulcher
1x sylvan caryatid
1x wood elves
1x beast within
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x crop rotation
1x dreadbore
1x explosive vegetation
1x gaze of granite
1x harrow
1x Hit/Run
1x hull breach
1x kodama's reach
1x krosan grip
1x mob rule
1x nature's lore
1x night's whisper
1x Profane Command
1x search for tomorrow
1x shamanic revelation
1x vandalblast
1x worldly tutor
1x xenagos, the reveler
1x akoum refuge
1x Ancient Tomb
1x blood crypt
1x bloodstained mire
1x cavern of souls
1x city of brass
1x crystal vein
1x exotic orchard
4x forest
1x gaea's cradle
1x gilt-leaf palace
1x kessig wolf run
1x mossfire valley
4x mountain
1x overgrown tomb
1x rakdos carnarium
1x savage lands
1x stomping ground
4x swamp
1x temple of the false god
1x verdant catacombs
1x vesuva
1x volrath's stronghold
1x windswept heath
1x yavimaya hollow
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
1x Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Token Generators (4)
1x Bitterblossom
1x Awakening Zone
1x Mycoloth
1x Avenger of Zendikar
Sac Outlets (3)
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Carnage Altar
Win Cons (6)
1x Blood Artist
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Outpost Siege
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
Removal/Control (13)
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Tragic Slip
1x Nature's Claim
1x Putrefy
1x Unravel the Aether
1x Chaos Warp
1x Krosan Grip
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Decree of Pain
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Dictate of Erebos
Tutors (8)
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Crop Rotation
1x Reap and Sow
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Skullmulcher
1x Life's Legacy
1x Shamanic Revelation
1x Plunge into Darkness
1x Skullclamp
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
1x Fecundity
1x Phyrexian Arena
GY reuse (3)
1x Praetor's Counsel
1x Eternal Witness
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Ramp (15)
1x Nature's Lore
1x Cultivate
1x Primal Growth
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Yavimaya Dryad
1x Wood Elves
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Sol Ring
1x Earthcraft
1x Food Chain
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands (38)
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x High Market
1x Petrified Field
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Kher Keep
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Exotic Orchard
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Woodland Cemetery
1x Graven Cairns
1x Fire-Lit Thicket
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Windswept Heath
1x Mountain
2x Swamp
6x Forest
Looks really good. Glad you like the deck and play style. It's still one of my favorite decks. I do like Life's Legacy but have always been hesitant to add it due to the small amount of large creatures I play. For me, it's pretty much just Prossh that gets the axe to draw a bajillion cards. Still, I see a lot of potential with it, which means I'll take a closer to look at it, maybe take it for a spin some time.
Yah, it's good. I saw it but almost instantly thought "win more", but the more I think about it the more I think it can actually be useful at certain points in the game. Will really be an excellent budget option, but will have to see if it makes the cut in a really tuned deck. I think it will likely fall somewhere in between. I would not fault anyone for trying it out.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G