I'll say a few words about the token guys. Some of them are relatively useless, all things considered (Awakening Zone, Mycoloth, and especially Mitotic Slime...oh boy did I want that card to work so badly, but it never did). After much trial and error, I shaved it down to my current package plus a couple of extra guys I think I mentioned earlier. Grave Titan is just raw value. 6 mana, 10 power, and it gets out of control really quick. The same thing applies to Dragon Broodmother, although I personally have meta reasons for running it, namely protecting myself from Karrthus's lackeys, Jenara/Derevi, Avacyn, and pretty much every other flying threat not named Iona or Shivan Dragon. They give you something to do outside of assembling combo pieces or an alternate win-con or big defense against the table turning on you.
My other reason for running them is getting free value from Warp World. Getting anywhere from 5 extra to twice as many as someone else's permanents is pretty disgusting. I usually aim for a turn 7 Warp World unless table conditions dictate I need answers.
I can see why you would run some of the token producers. I guess I've taken more of a "control" stance, opting to play a lot more generic card draw and removal spells. It's been working out, as I fill my turns with answers and play only what I consider the most "brutal" threats. I'm still on the fence about both Grave Titan and Dragon Broodmother. Have they really been that insane for you? In the past, they've just been generic beatsticks for me. Sure they represent a decent clock, but facing down a table of 120 life, it's generally too insignificant for my tastes (and my meta, I think). If you can convince me otherwise, I would love to hear an argument, cause I like both cards theoretically
Arguments? I'll provide several.
1. Prossh is a prime tuck target. Secondly, even if it gets Hindered/Spell Crumpled or it hits the board to meet Oblation or Chaos Warp, we get tokens regardless. Problem is, they're 0/1s, and they invite people to attack you to try to trim that token number or your life total down, both of which you'd like to protect to either turn your life into cards (Phyrexian Arena, Sylvan Library, Bloodgift Demon even) or to do silly stuff with tokens obviously. Having at least 1 power per turn to trade better with your opponents is leagues better than harmless Kobolds.
2. Every turn Broodmom is left up is another prime pump for the Craterhoof Behemoth. 120 life doesn't seem so bad when all of your tokens suddenly attack for 30+ each. Speaking of which...
3. This isn't quite as relevant due to Sylvan Primordial's untimely but welcomed demise, but Grave Titan and Broodmom are prime Pod targets, both an out from Siege-Gang Commander or Zealous Conscripts, or into a 7-drop, usually Chancellor of the Forge, but Avenger of Zendikar is ever the threat.
4. More Food for the Gaea's Cradle of Planeswalkers, Xenagos. Mana requirements don't mean too much when you have as much RG at your disposal as you'll ever need.
I haven't had a chance to play my deck for the past two weeks, but I'm planning to very soon. I'm still a bit iffy on Champion of Lambholt as well as some of the walkers (Sarkhan Vol and Xenagos in particular). I'm considering adding Xenagos, God of Revels as mentioned by Ferverous. He just seems like a powerful threat on paper, and turns Prossh into a 1-shot machine. His resilience is also highly welcome. Another card I've been bouncing around in my head is Eldrazi Monument. First off, I think all abilities on the card match this deck perfectly - evasion, pump, indestructibility. Secondly, while most people may see the sacrificing as a drawback, it can actually be a plus, especially when you're looking for ways to re-cast Prossh. I think adding those two cards will provide a huge boost in both threat density and resilience for the aggro plan.
Regarding haste, I finally cut almost all haste-enablers (outside of Sarkhan Vol). There are plenty of ways to end the game via Food Chain, with cards that have impact outside of just granting haste.
Champion of Lambholt is as disgustingly powerful as it looks. I also finally got to land Sarkhan Vol during my last session, and he blew my mind. I'm picking up my copies of Xenagod tonight, and will report back on how many free kills he hands out. I'm way too excited about him. And I've reached the same conclusions you have about the haste enablers, though I have turned Chancellor of the Forge into my pet card that never fails to disappoint.
Lastly, I want to talk about the types of removal I put in this deck. I tend to dislike the expensive "all purpose" removal, like Beast Within and Chaos Warp. They tie up turns and keep you from playing both threat and answer. As Jund, I believe it's important to look at how your turns play out and how the mana stacks up. In that regard, I'm playing either hyper-efficient removal (ie. Nature's Claim) or X-for-1s (ie. Fire Covenant). To compete with the heavy ramp, blue, and GY-combo decks in my metagame, this combination of spells helps me keep up with those brutal strategies. Just some food for thought.
Someone introduced me to Artifact Mutation. Enjoy. Oh, and don't forget Krosan Grip if it hasn't been mentioned.
I love the token producers in my deck, but I like them en masse rather than coming out once in small numbers, like Grave Titan which is a card I've never been impressed with when playing against it. My deck is definitely built to abuse the tokens though, so that's why I like cards like awakening zone and mitotic slime. The point about the 120 life is excellent and I agree with the notion that Grave Titan just kinda fails at tackling that problem. I think you gotta look at how you use those 3 creatures Grave Titan produces, for me 3 isn't good enough, as I want 5, 10, 15+ creature tokens in play. The Broodmother comes closer to giving me this, but she's expensive and has a super awkward casting cost. For me something like Awakening Zone is the perfect card that people would ignore for 5 turns dealing with my threats, and then I plop a craterhoof behemoth that is significantly larger as a result, plus it produces mana! But even then I'm on the edge with these kind of cards, they are slow, and we like to be explosive.
Awakening Zone produces mana, but don't forget you have to get rid of the tokens for your accel. It seems kind of counterintuitive to me, at the end of the day.
I may give Broodmom another look, although I'm still not sold in Grave Titan. I don't run a very elaborate pod chain (nor Kiki-Conscripts, since I feel that both are a bit weak on their own), but I do run Avenger / Chancellor. On the opposite side of the fence, I've found the turn-by-turn token producers very lack-luster for the reasons Sax has mentioned.
I'm glad y'all are coming around to my way of thinking about Sarkhan Vol, he's been pretty good in my experience. I actually like the idea of the monument if you're playing a slower list. Those benefits are nice, I just feel in this list they're a little more defensive than offensive.
I haven't gotten to try Xenagos yet, but I already run Seize the Day which is a 1 shot for 7 mana. Replacing that with Xenagos basically offers me a 1 shot for 5 mana which seems good.
The Champion is an absurdly powerful card, I've lost to it multiple times. I guess in my list I just never feel the need to have it as I'm either craterhoofing or Food Chaining my way to victory most games, and the Champion's more of a 2-3 turn clock.
I've tested both Overwhelming and Triumph of the Hordes. Overwhelming Stampede is quite good, mainly because it grants trample - it's probably going into my list at some point in the future. Triumph of the Hordes was not as good for me. The issue is that you'll only ever be able to knock out one (MAYBE two) players with it, given the amount of tokens you have. It combos with the other pump spells, but from my experience, if you have the other pump spells adding in triumph is just overkill.
That makes sense. I'll throw Xenagos and Stampede in and test, should be playing a lot this weekend. With the cut of Sylvan I guess I'll need something to go in that slot anyways >.<
Played the deck some more. I've made some pretty large changes because my philosophy for the deck has changed some. The first is that I'm running too many cards that depend on Prossh. This isn't a bad thing, but it makes the deck slow and cumbersome, as Prossh himself is already expensive. Because of this, I cut a bunch of cards like Eldrazi Monument and Sadistic Hypnotist because they are EXPENSIVE. I don't mean in casting cost, but in the fact that they ask me to basically begin devouring my resources for mediocre gains. I've also cut Skullmulcher as Disciple of Bolas does what I need it to do for cheaper, with more upside, and still allows me to keep some (if not all) tokens). Basically, I see no reason to throw away tokens unless they're for something amazing. I don't think any of the above fit that.
The second observation I made is that this deck needs a lot of ramp. I was originally running 14, but now I've jumped up to 18 after adding in Oracle of Mul Daya, Lotus Cobra, Dark Ritual, and Mana Reflection. I'm more concerned with quality, fixing, and tempo-based ramp. Anything that lets me cheat the curve is pretty strong here, since having our commander out ASAP is very important. I also added back Sylvan Scrying on top of Crop Rotation, because Gaea's Cradle and Ancient Tomb ARE that good. As you move towards the mid game, being able to jump from 6 to 12 mana is pretty important for making sure you can keep up with UGx and other combo strategies.
The third observation was that I had too many filler spells. What I mean by this is an over-abundant amount of card draw and an over-abundant amount of removal. I've dropped the draw count down to 8 and the removal count down to 10.
Lastly, I have two slots left over after cutting the fluff. I'm looking for threats. Not necessarily token producers, but actual threats or cards that instantly turn on Prossh. I was annoyed by the cards that set me back when I'd rather be beating face (as I mentioned in the first part of the post). I feel like the deck is missing something. Some sort of mini engine or a few pieces of synergy to help get the ball rolling. Not sure what those are, but I currently have 2 open slots and another 1 or 2 flex spots that I'm willing to open up for suggestions! At first glance, I think the answer might just be more ramp On the other hand, I think that cards like Homura, Human Ascendant are criminally undervalued here (maybe even Kamahl, Fist of Krosa). I'd say anything that lets you repeatedly deal ~20+ damage with your army is worth playing. On the flipside, if re-casting Prossh is big for this deck, I'm thinking of playing both Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar. Both are insane ways to make good use of your first cast of Prossh as well as providing redundancy for your Food Chain combo. I think I like that idea more.
Again, mana is probably the most important thing for this deck since all you need to do is keep casting Prossh. The rest of the deck will belly up the wins as long as you can consistently apply pressure.
I think you bring up some good points, but I really have to disagree with cutting Skullmulcher, he's done wonders for me. I really enjoy him giving me the reach to combo out, if I have him in hand, and nothing to kill someone with when I want to Food Chain combo, I simply cast this deep into the combo, draw my deck, combo some more, and win. Disciple of Bolas doesn't offer this option. Additionally, for me at least, Disciple is pretty much sacrificing one creature in my deck, Prossh, so that's why I don't run him.
As for your two slots, I'd add Toxic Deluge and Diabolic Edict. They're not too expensive, and while Toxic Deluge doesn't offer the raw power of Decree of Pain it's a cheap board wipe that also kills indestructible creatures which I've always found to be a bit of a nuisance for the deck. You could also look into Black Sun's Zenith. I think you gotta keep it cheap with your mass removal though, so that's why I go with the Deluge. The Edict has saved my ass several times, especially against voltron generals, or someone who manages to stick a single large threat. Instead speed all the way!
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"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
As for me, I've been AFK this week, mostly due to life, but partly due to two of my last three games going like this:
1) Keep opening 7 with two lands and Cultivate/Kodama's Reach
2) Brick third land drop
3) Die on turn 6 to Rafiq
Kind of frustrated that I haven't been able to get a good game off to test the tweaks and changes, but tonight is another Friday night, which means I should hopefully actually learn something and post my adjustments. Cross your fingers for me.
Nothing worse than a game that doesn't get going because of land issues. Unfortunately, we do die easily to aggressive generals, like Rafiq, and since we are a more powerful general we tend to be target #1. Spot removal is my best friend as a result, Rafiq just loses to Putrefy. But yah, rough if you can't hit that 3rd land drop. Best of luck tonight with crushing your foes.
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Hey, Primer! ISB finally got off his butt and actually did something around here
JK, love you, thanks again!
Rafiq is annoying for sure, but if you hadn't gotten stuck on 2 lands you probably would have been fine. It might be worth looking into to throw some of the dorks in there though, at the least they offer blockers to aggressive generals at the best they help with T3 Prossh ^.^ Just something to consider.
@ MCR: I'm with big on Toxic Deluge and Skullmulcher. I don't think I'd ever run a Prossh list without both of those cards. Skullmulcher allows a deck draw with the Food chain combo allowing you to draw into your Purhorous/Pain Artist, and Toxic is just an auto include in every black deck ever O.o
Toxic Deluge: Because sometimes, you have to kill T2 Arcum Dagsson and Gaddock Teeg at the same time.
This weekend's games went...better than last time. I got to play a couple games after Saturday's Modern tournament (went 4-1 with Janky Junk.dec). I made some adjustments, and here's my current list
I should probably get around to arranging it by card type too...I'll work on that throughout the day.
Anyway, notes:
Sometimes, Xenagos, the Reveler just lets you cast Decree of Pain and Warp World in the same turn. I drew 11 cards, then proceeded to punt the game in grand fashion. I was tired, lol.
I tried Liliana of the Dark Realms. It was extremely average.
I put the Signets in to fix my mana issues. Ultimately, I'm glad I did, though it's not so great when you're only drawing one card per turn.
Otherwise, the deck mostly runs like a threat-dense, well-oiled machine. As long as user error doesn't get into the way, of course.
Really glad it's working out so well for you. Agreed on the signets, they're pretty stellar ^.^ Although I really can't recommend Skullmulcher or Diabolic Intent enough. The mulcher you should be able to get pretty cheap, and the Intent is only 5-6$ online. Both are amazing cards.
All in all though it look like a fun list! Thanks for the update
Game 1 ended with me getting Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience'd on turn 3 for the second time this month (player A opens with Turn 0 Leyline, player B ramps into Helm and takes out the biggest threat at the table).
Game 2, I got to go off with Food Chain for the first time ever (Rune-Scarred Demon fetches Purphoros) after a scary moment when Niv-Mizzet 1.0 tried to go off at instant speed (thank you based Krosan Grip) in response to a Planar Cleansing.
Game 3 ended with me getting Void/Helm'd out of the industry. Again.
More thoughts:
1) I need Naturalize as a meta call. Maybe even Filigree Fracture since quite a few of the decks around are Esper-flavored.
2) I keep looking at Avenger of Zendikar as the most powerful card I never cast. Is it possible to do the unthinkable and cut it?
3) Skullmulcher will make his way into the deck somehow this weekend. I'm still sketchy on it 'cause I feel like more often than not, I'm going to need a non-Krenko token producer that does so for less than six mana, but I've been known to be terribly wrong before.
I will completely support cutting avenger. I just don't think the deck needs more token producers, Prossh just does that all on his own. If it guaranteed a kill with a tooth and nail/Purphoros/avenger, I'd be all in for it, but it doesn't so I don't think it's worth the slot. I would probably recommend Nature's Claim over the fracture. The fracture is nice, but Claim is 2 mana cheaper which can make a huge difference. ANother one to look at is Hull Breach or Destructive Revelry.
Oh yah, get rid of Avenger if you want to. I use it only as a back-up plan in my deck, and lately I've been thinking it's a pretty bad back-up plan. It's been hovering on the chopping block for a while in my deck. But it's one of those cards you want to find a good replacement for, I wouldn't just cut it for anything, replace it with a solid threat unless you really need the utility.
Hull Breach is probably a good option, but it's a sorcery, and I hate sorceries so I recommend Nature's Claim.
I actually just cut Dreadbore for Artifact Mutation but haven't been able to play it yet, so haven't added it to the main post. Hope it works like I want it to.
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Artifact Mutation is a total house, second only to Krosan Grip. I have never, ever been disappointed in it. I'll figure out what's going in place of Avenger this week. I got distracted this weekend slapping a Prime Speaker Zegana deck for a change of pace. Drawing 12-15 cards per turn seems pretty legit, lol.
hey guys, love this write up! I think I want to try the SMASHROARDEATH version of the deck, but I dont have $500 to drop on it. Do you think you guys could brainstorm some budget options that retain the spirit of the deck? I would really appreciate it! Great work so far.
I'll add to the love for artifact mutation. For some reason this card seems to fly under the radar and more often than not my opponents will need to read it. Great card in prossh or ulasht.
hey guys, love this write up! I think I want to try the SMASHROARDEATH version of the deck, but I dont have $500 to drop on it. Do you think you guys could brainstorm some budget options that retain the spirit of the deck? I would really appreciate it! Great work so far.
Honestly, one of the best ways is to just attack at the manabase, like Pedrin said. Most of our cards are pretty cheap, it's the lands that'll get you. Feverous also has a 100 dollar land in his deck, so if you can just chop that right out you'll save a ton of money and not lose a lot of oomph. Most of the synergistic rare's are dirt cheap, the most expensive being Purphoros, God of the Forge which you can't go without. Demonic Tutor is really good, but if you really need to cut that out you can replace it with a cheaper, but less good alternative, they exist, I'm just blanking on them right now. You can also probably remove Survival of the Fittest as that adds a some cost to the deck as well. These are all engine cards, so you won't lose the spirit of the deck, but may make it less consistent. Cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library are cards that can also probably go, as while they are amazing cards, they are horrifically over priced. I'd probably focus on putting in some extra ramp/removal if you take out these cards, and look for some cheaper tutor alternatives, though they won't be anywhere near as good. Honestly, if you focus on replacing expensive fetch lands, and utility lands you'll probably knock 250 bucks off the price of the list instantly, and can focus on more selective cuts from there.
I think doing a budget list is an idea we can look into deeper, but a lot of the costs in both our decks are just in the mana base. Feel free to ask questions if you have any. There are plenty of ways to swap in/swap out cards. Hopefully Feverous will swing by, as I don't know how his decks plays exactly, and he'll know how cutting things will effect the spirit of the deck.
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So I would like to spend about $5-6 dollars max for a card, unless its vital to the deck like Purphoros, God of the Forge. Obviously the deck wont be as potent, but I think Prossh might be the general i'm looking for. I've bounced between about 6 of them and I cant find the perfect one. I'm okay with having a bottom of the barrel shell as long as I can actually legally play it. I'm willing to build it over time, but for now it needs to be pretty budget. sub $100 would be amazing, but realistically i'm expecting around $200.
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Arguments? I'll provide several.
1. Prossh is a prime tuck target. Secondly, even if it gets Hindered/Spell Crumpled or it hits the board to meet Oblation or Chaos Warp, we get tokens regardless. Problem is, they're 0/1s, and they invite people to attack you to try to trim that token number or your life total down, both of which you'd like to protect to either turn your life into cards (Phyrexian Arena, Sylvan Library, Bloodgift Demon even) or to do silly stuff with tokens obviously. Having at least 1 power per turn to trade better with your opponents is leagues better than harmless Kobolds.
2. Every turn Broodmom is left up is another prime pump for the Craterhoof Behemoth. 120 life doesn't seem so bad when all of your tokens suddenly attack for 30+ each. Speaking of which...
3. This isn't quite as relevant due to Sylvan Primordial's untimely but welcomed demise, but Grave Titan and Broodmom are prime Pod targets, both an out from Siege-Gang Commander or Zealous Conscripts, or into a 7-drop, usually Chancellor of the Forge, but Avenger of Zendikar is ever the threat.
4. More Food for the Gaea's Cradle of Planeswalkers, Xenagos. Mana requirements don't mean too much when you have as much RG at your disposal as you'll ever need.
Champion of Lambholt is as disgustingly powerful as it looks. I also finally got to land Sarkhan Vol during my last session, and he blew my mind. I'm picking up my copies of Xenagod tonight, and will report back on how many free kills he hands out. I'm way too excited about him. And I've reached the same conclusions you have about the haste enablers, though I have turned Chancellor of the Forge into my pet card that never fails to disappoint.
Someone introduced me to Artifact Mutation. Enjoy. Oh, and don't forget Krosan Grip if it hasn't been mentioned.
Awakening Zone produces mana, but don't forget you have to get rid of the tokens for your accel. It seems kind of counterintuitive to me, at the end of the day.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
I may give Broodmom another look, although I'm still not sold in Grave Titan. I don't run a very elaborate pod chain (nor Kiki-Conscripts, since I feel that both are a bit weak on their own), but I do run Avenger / Chancellor. On the opposite side of the fence, I've found the turn-by-turn token producers very lack-luster for the reasons Sax has mentioned.
Do you have an updated list, Sax?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
I haven't gotten to try Xenagos yet, but I already run Seize the Day which is a 1 shot for 7 mana. Replacing that with Xenagos basically offers me a 1 shot for 5 mana which seems good.
The Champion is an absurdly powerful card, I've lost to it multiple times. I guess in my list I just never feel the need to have it as I'm either craterhoofing or Food Chaining my way to victory most games, and the Champion's more of a 2-3 turn clock.
I am thinking about putting Overwhelming Stampede in my list. Craterhoof #2 doesn't seem bad. Also, anyone gotten to test Triumph of the Hordes yet? O.o
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[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
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One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
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[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
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The second observation I made is that this deck needs a lot of ramp. I was originally running 14, but now I've jumped up to 18 after adding in Oracle of Mul Daya, Lotus Cobra, Dark Ritual, and Mana Reflection. I'm more concerned with quality, fixing, and tempo-based ramp. Anything that lets me cheat the curve is pretty strong here, since having our commander out ASAP is very important. I also added back Sylvan Scrying on top of Crop Rotation, because Gaea's Cradle and Ancient Tomb ARE that good. As you move towards the mid game, being able to jump from 6 to 12 mana is pretty important for making sure you can keep up with UGx and other combo strategies.
The third observation was that I had too many filler spells. What I mean by this is an over-abundant amount of card draw and an over-abundant amount of removal. I've dropped the draw count down to 8 and the removal count down to 10.
Lastly, I have two slots left over after cutting the fluff. I'm looking for threats. Not necessarily token producers, but actual threats or cards that instantly turn on Prossh. I was annoyed by the cards that set me back when I'd rather be beating face (as I mentioned in the first part of the post). I feel like the deck is missing something. Some sort of mini engine or a few pieces of synergy to help get the ball rolling. Not sure what those are, but I currently have 2 open slots and another 1 or 2 flex spots that I'm willing to open up for suggestions! At first glance, I think the answer might just be more ramp On the other hand, I think that cards like Homura, Human Ascendant are criminally undervalued here (maybe even Kamahl, Fist of Krosa). I'd say anything that lets you repeatedly deal ~20+ damage with your army is worth playing. On the flipside, if re-casting Prossh is big for this deck, I'm thinking of playing both Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar. Both are insane ways to make good use of your first cast of Prossh as well as providing redundancy for your Food Chain combo. I think I like that idea more.
Again, mana is probably the most important thing for this deck since all you need to do is keep casting Prossh. The rest of the deck will belly up the wins as long as you can consistently apply pressure.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Power Cards
1 Food Chain
1 Birthing Pod
1 Natural Order
1 Tooth and Nail
//Combo Pieces
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
//Aggro
1 Shared Animosity
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Coat of Arms
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Sarkhan Vol
//Token Generators
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Tutors
1 Crop Rotation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Grim Tutor
//Card Draw
1 Skullclamp
1 Night's Whisper
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
1 Eternal Witness
//Disruption
1 The Abyss
1 Stranglehold
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
//Answers
1 Nature's Claim
1 Innocent Blood
1 Vandalblast
1 Hull Breach
1 Fire Covenant
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Decree of Pain
//Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Explore
1 Restore
1 Farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Coalition Relic
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Black Market
1 Mana Reflection
//Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Graven Cairns
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I think you bring up some good points, but I really have to disagree with cutting Skullmulcher, he's done wonders for me. I really enjoy him giving me the reach to combo out, if I have him in hand, and nothing to kill someone with when I want to Food Chain combo, I simply cast this deep into the combo, draw my deck, combo some more, and win. Disciple of Bolas doesn't offer this option. Additionally, for me at least, Disciple is pretty much sacrificing one creature in my deck, Prossh, so that's why I don't run him.
As for your two slots, I'd add Toxic Deluge and Diabolic Edict. They're not too expensive, and while Toxic Deluge doesn't offer the raw power of Decree of Pain it's a cheap board wipe that also kills indestructible creatures which I've always found to be a bit of a nuisance for the deck. You could also look into Black Sun's Zenith. I think you gotta keep it cheap with your mass removal though, so that's why I go with the Deluge. The Edict has saved my ass several times, especially against voltron generals, or someone who manages to stick a single large threat. Instead speed all the way!
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
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[Modern] Allies
As for me, I've been AFK this week, mostly due to life, but partly due to two of my last three games going like this:
1) Keep opening 7 with two lands and Cultivate/Kodama's Reach
2) Brick third land drop
3) Die on turn 6 to Rafiq
Kind of frustrated that I haven't been able to get a good game off to test the tweaks and changes, but tonight is another Friday night, which means I should hopefully actually learn something and post my adjustments. Cross your fingers for me.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
Nothing worse than a game that doesn't get going because of land issues. Unfortunately, we do die easily to aggressive generals, like Rafiq, and since we are a more powerful general we tend to be target #1. Spot removal is my best friend as a result, Rafiq just loses to Putrefy. But yah, rough if you can't hit that 3rd land drop. Best of luck tonight with crushing your foes.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
JK, love you, thanks again!
Rafiq is annoying for sure, but if you hadn't gotten stuck on 2 lands you probably would have been fine. It might be worth looking into to throw some of the dorks in there though, at the least they offer blockers to aggressive generals at the best they help with T3 Prossh ^.^ Just something to consider.
@ MCR: I'm with big on Toxic Deluge and Skullmulcher. I don't think I'd ever run a Prossh list without both of those cards. Skullmulcher allows a deck draw with the Food chain combo allowing you to draw into your Purhorous/Pain Artist, and Toxic is just an auto include in every black deck ever O.o
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[Modern] Allies
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This weekend's games went...better than last time. I got to play a couple games after Saturday's Modern tournament (went 4-1 with Janky Junk.dec). I made some adjustments, and here's my current list
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
1 Parallel Lives
1 Doubling Season
1 Birthing Pod
1 Warp World
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Food Chain
1 Sol Ring
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Gruul Signet
1 Golgari Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Wood Elves
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Goblin Matron
1 Rune-scarred Demon
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fecundity
1 Harmonize
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Grave Titan
1 Dragon Broodmother
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Anger
1 Animate Dead
1 Nekrataal
1 Acidic Slime
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Vandalblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Putrefy
1 Krosan Grip
1 Decree of Pain
1 Toxic Deluge
7 Mountain
5 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple of the False God
1 Command Tower
1 Savage Lands
1 Kher Keep
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Llanowar Wastes
I should probably get around to arranging it by card type too...I'll work on that throughout the day.
Anyway, notes:
Sometimes, Xenagos, the Reveler just lets you cast Decree of Pain and Warp World in the same turn. I drew 11 cards, then proceeded to punt the game in grand fashion. I was tired, lol.
I tried Liliana of the Dark Realms. It was extremely average.
I put the Signets in to fix my mana issues. Ultimately, I'm glad I did, though it's not so great when you're only drawing one card per turn.
Otherwise, the deck mostly runs like a threat-dense, well-oiled machine. As long as user error doesn't get into the way, of course.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
All in all though it look like a fun list! Thanks for the update
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Game 1 ended with me getting Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience'd on turn 3 for the second time this month (player A opens with Turn 0 Leyline, player B ramps into Helm and takes out the biggest threat at the table).
Game 2, I got to go off with Food Chain for the first time ever (Rune-Scarred Demon fetches Purphoros) after a scary moment when Niv-Mizzet 1.0 tried to go off at instant speed (thank you based Krosan Grip) in response to a Planar Cleansing.
Game 3 ended with me getting Void/Helm'd out of the industry. Again.
More thoughts:
1) I need Naturalize as a meta call. Maybe even Filigree Fracture since quite a few of the decks around are Esper-flavored.
2) I keep looking at Avenger of Zendikar as the most powerful card I never cast. Is it possible to do the unthinkable and cut it?
3) Skullmulcher will make his way into the deck somehow this weekend. I'm still sketchy on it 'cause I feel like more often than not, I'm going to need a non-Krenko token producer that does so for less than six mana, but I've been known to be terribly wrong before.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
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Hull Breach is probably a good option, but it's a sorcery, and I hate sorceries so I recommend Nature's Claim.
I actually just cut Dreadbore for Artifact Mutation but haven't been able to play it yet, so haven't added it to the main post. Hope it works like I want it to.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
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[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
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GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Honestly, one of the best ways is to just attack at the manabase, like Pedrin said. Most of our cards are pretty cheap, it's the lands that'll get you. Feverous also has a 100 dollar land in his deck, so if you can just chop that right out you'll save a ton of money and not lose a lot of oomph. Most of the synergistic rare's are dirt cheap, the most expensive being Purphoros, God of the Forge which you can't go without. Demonic Tutor is really good, but if you really need to cut that out you can replace it with a cheaper, but less good alternative, they exist, I'm just blanking on them right now. You can also probably remove Survival of the Fittest as that adds a some cost to the deck as well. These are all engine cards, so you won't lose the spirit of the deck, but may make it less consistent. Cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library are cards that can also probably go, as while they are amazing cards, they are horrifically over priced. I'd probably focus on putting in some extra ramp/removal if you take out these cards, and look for some cheaper tutor alternatives, though they won't be anywhere near as good. Honestly, if you focus on replacing expensive fetch lands, and utility lands you'll probably knock 250 bucks off the price of the list instantly, and can focus on more selective cuts from there.
I think doing a budget list is an idea we can look into deeper, but a lot of the costs in both our decks are just in the mana base. Feel free to ask questions if you have any. There are plenty of ways to swap in/swap out cards. Hopefully Feverous will swing by, as I don't know how his decks plays exactly, and he'll know how cutting things will effect the spirit of the deck.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
0 Kher Keep
0 Rootbound Crag
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Twilight Mire
0 Raging Ravine
0 Graven Cairns
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Kessig Wolf Run
0 Arid Mesa
0 Woodland Cemetery
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Dragonskull Summit
0 Inkmoth Nexus
0 Stomping Ground
0 Blood Crypt
Creatures (14)
2 Blood Artist
3 Farhaven Elf
4 Wickerbough Elder
7 Hornet Queen
7 Avenger of Zendikar
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Noxious Revival
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Terminate
2 Diabolic Edict
Sorceries (12)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Regrowth
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Scrying
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Saproling Symbiosis
5 Soul's Majesty
7 Tooth and Nail
Artifacts (12)
1 Expedition Map
2 Carnage Altar
3 Phyrexian Altar
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Ashnod's Altar
2 Goblin Bombardment
3 Beastmaster Ascension
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Food Chain
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Tooth and Claw
4 Grave Pact
7 Vicious Shadows
Planeswalkers (1)
4 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Devastation Ascending (Artifacts) (9)
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Coalition Relic
1 Expedition Map
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Don't Fear the Reaper (Creatures) (23)
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Duplicant
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Wood Elves
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Yavimaya Dryad
Rising Flames (Enchantments) (8)
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Food Chain
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Shared Animosity
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sudden Death
1 Vampiric Tutor
Allies of Destruction (Planeswalkers) (4)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
Bargains from Below (Sorceries) (13)
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Explore
1 Exsanguinate
1 Hull Breach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Praetor's Counsel
1 Profane Command
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Toxic Deluge
Coffin Nails (Lands) (38)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 High Market
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Maze of Ith
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Savage Lands
1 Stomping Ground
1 Strip Mine
2 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetery
So I would like to spend about $5-6 dollars max for a card, unless its vital to the deck like Purphoros, God of the Forge. Obviously the deck wont be as potent, but I think Prossh might be the general i'm looking for. I've bounced between about 6 of them and I cant find the perfect one. I'm okay with having a bottom of the barrel shell as long as I can actually legally play it. I'm willing to build it over time, but for now it needs to be pretty budget. sub $100 would be amazing, but realistically i'm expecting around $200.