WARNING: This deck contains many large images. I recommend you zoom out twice on your screen (control + - key) for the best reading.
Dat old skool art.
Sup everyone. Welcome to my third decklist on MTGSalv. This time I am focusing on a RBU Grixis BRU control deck, with many elements of punishing and forcing discard. The commander as of right now is Crosis, the Purger, but it could definitely change at any time.
With Grixis colors we get access to BUR:
B: Tutors, wipes, life loss, discard effects, win cons. U: Counterspells, card draw, wheel effects, clones, and win cons. R: Wheel effects, some cool planeswalkers, copy effects.
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So with that being said, let's look at why we picked Crosis, the Purger over the other (viable) UBR Grixis BUR commanders.
Crosis, the Purger: Crosis is great for this deck because he allows the shredding of hands (particularly mono and dual colored decks) all while being a well-costed flying beater. We don't need him to win but he certainly is a beast when he can stick onto the field and get some hits in.
Thraximundar: Thrax is a pretty good Grixis commander, and he was definitely considered before making this build. I like that he has haste, and causes a sacrifice much like Eldrazi, however, he has a higher mana cost and his ability does not synergize with discard effects.
Sedris, the Traitor King: This guy is good in a Grixis reanimator build, but that is nothing like we are trying to do right now. It would be interesting to play that style of deck, but reanimator and control are pretty separate archetypes.
Nicol Bolas: Probably the #2 consideration after Crosis for this deck, Nicol Bolas, however, costs much more mana to play, and also has an upkeep cost that must be paid, making him extremely more mana intensive. If he was the commander I don't think we'd ever get to play him. His effect is better, but only by a little bit in most situations.
Garza Zol, Plague Queen: She's extremely over-costed for her ability, and would barely ever even be worth casting. It's nice that she has haste but she really doesn't do anything fantastic. If I wanted a grixis commander like her I would just use Thrax anyway.
Gwendlyn Di Corci: While not terrible, her ability is kinda 'meh' in a game where you have 3 other opponents.
Lord of Tressorhorn: His ability lends itself more to a sac and recur type strategy or maybe even a voltron strategy and is not what we're trying to do here.
The deck currently tries to win by utilizing discard effects and wheel effects to both draw us a lot of cards and deny the opponents cards, or force them to be dealt damage for drawing/discarding them. To support that, there are a lot of elements of typical control including counterspells and board wipes. Now for the individual card breakdown.
The Breakdown
The Purger:
Crosis, the Purger: He is one of our win cons, but mostly he is just a flying beater that helps shred the enemies hands. We don't need him to win but he certainly can help out, particularly against mono or dual colored opponents.
The Main WinConMen
:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind: A classic combo guy, but we won't be using his combos here. But for every draw we get he gives us a little bit of burn.. and we're gonna get a lot of draw.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker: Not a traditional way to win, but this guy can definitely seal the deal if he stays out long enough. All 3 of his abilities are golden.
Psychosis Crawler: One of the best ways to win in the deck. Every draw converts to -1 for our enemies, and this can seriously add up. Plus his p/t in itself will be quite large.
The Pain Enchants
Megrim: Wheel effects + this = mucho damage. Any discard will add up though.
Liliana's Caress: Same thing as Megrim, but is cheaper! Redundancy is good in this department.
Alt. Win-Cons
]
Exsanguinate: I know, a little weird to be in this deck, but we like to make our opponents lose life, and with Coffers this is a smash.
Bribery: Not necessarily a win-con in itself but it does help us win the game a lot of the time by playing any creature from a library for 3UU.
Wheel and Deal
[CARD]
Wheel of Fortune[/CARD]: Where the term 'Wheel effect' comes from in magic. Unfortunately this refills our opponents hands to the brim so we want to try to do this only when a) they already have 6-7 cards or we have 0 cards b) we have a Notion Thief out, or c) it will win us the game.
Windfall: A weaker Wheel effect which is sometimes okay with us. Does pretty much the same thing except isn't always 7 cards.
Memory Jar: Wheel effect on an artifact. This one is unique because we only have one turn to play the hand. But definitely the best wheel effect to play because it is basically only beneficial to us.
Timetwister: This one is a little different because it doesn't actually cause discard, but rather, it shuffles cards back into the library. Serving as pseudo-grave hate and also another Wheel effect. Might come out for Whispering Madness, though.
How to: Draw
Consecrated Sphinx: Probably the best card to draw with in multiplayer EDH. Attracts a ton of hate though. Always worth it anyway.
Notion Thief: Such a trickster. Makes our wheel effects basically be mass discard without any draw for them. Probably one of the best cards in the deck.
Mystic Remora: Easy draw off an enchantment. The upkeep isn't much mana with all our mana artifacts.
Rhystic Study: A lot like Remora, but it will be out for good, until someone is pissed and removes it. Will draw us a good bit of cards a majority of the time.
Chandra, the Firebrand: Her ability to copy instant/sorceries make her so amazing. Can double wheel effects, Exsanguinates, Briberies, basically anything works. She really gets the job done.
Liliana of the Veil: Group discard as well as an edict effect all packed into a well costed hard to kill planeswalker. She's extremely good in this deck because generally we have enough cards to discard, or we gain a lot from our opponents discarding.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: The infamous Jace is extremely good in this deck. Both his brainstorm and unsummon ability are extremely useful, and his +2 works decently to get back some of his loyalty.
Counterspells:
Negate: Hard counter to noncreature spells which make up probably 50-60% of the spells in EDH. Good stuff.
Decree of Pain: Wrath effect that lets us draw cards! or you can use its cycling version if need be.
Tutors:
Mystical Tutor: Any instant/sorcery to the top of our library. Can really save our asses sometimes.
Vampiric Tutor: Same as mystical except it can fetch ANY card. Really top tier tutor.
Demonic Tutor: The most basic and powerful tutor. 1B and right into your hand. Use it wisely.
Grim Tutor: Another basic tutor effect that is worse than Demonic by far, but still very good.
Praetor's Grasp: A tutor for... another person's deck? This is pretty useful because we are running 3 colors.. we likely can cast a lot of different things. Also good in the early game for fetching a Sol Ring or something.
Thada Adel, Aquisitor: A semi-tutor here, if she connects with the opponent we can search their library for an artifact and cast it if we want. Pretty cool effect.
Recursion:
Snapcaster Mage: Gives us another chance to cast our instant/sorceries at instant speed. Especially good for counterspells and tutors.
Mystic Retrieval: Similar to Snapcaster, except this works at sorcery speed and can be flashbacked itself! Lots of value from this one.
Reanimate: Brings back win-cons or cards we've milled.
Volrath's Stronghold: This is a land but it gets a mention for bringing back our win-con creatures, or any creature we desperately need.
Animate Dead: Gives us another chance to get back our dead creatures, or even someone elses creatures.
Additional Support:
Syphon Mind: Both a draw spell and a discard effect in one. Valueeeeeeeeeeeee.
Sangromancer: A little bit of health gain to off-set the damage we will inevitably take from being an annoying control deck and also that we deal ourselves.
Reiterate: It's always cool to copy spells, whether its our own spells or someone elses. This has a lot of different uses and even has buyback.
Diluvian Primordial: This guy can usually hit some gold if we have been forcing discard during the game, which hopefully we have been. A really solid creature that can even close out games. Sits at the top of our curve right now.
Torpor Orb: The amount of cards that this completely hoses in EDH creates a huge list. This is a solid card when it (barely) affects you.
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Changelog:
8.31.2013
Body Double ===> NecromancyEssentially the same thing. Sure, Necro isn't a creature itself so it can't be reanimated, but that's probably a good thing. This will let me leave more mana open.
High Market ===> Riptide LaboratoryNot sure why I had High Market in here to begin with. Lol. Riptide will let me reuse Snappy and Glen Elendra, and possibly save Niv from removal or something.
Rite of Replication ===> Phyrexian MetamorphTrading a pretty strong, but random win-con for a more reliable clone effect that can copy all sorts of things.
Bloodchief Ascension ==> Torpor Orb
Bloodchief had to go. This is a card that is incredible when it comes online, but the problem is that it is barely online unless you get it super early. And if you get it super early its often removed. So it's definitely cut despite its potential power. It's been swapped for Torpor Orb which should provide a widespread hate for a LOT of creatures that are seen in EDH. I only have two creatures that this will affect (Snapcaster Mage/Diluvian Primordial) which are both basically just luxuries as it were, anyway. If Torpor Orb doesn't work out, this will become Copy Artifact. I think the Orb will be solid, though.
Necromancy ===> Reanimate
Sorceries are just better and easier for us to reuse. Plus its cheaper. The life loss should not matter too much, I hope.
Thanks for taking the time to read my list, I'm open to all suggestions! Also check out my other two deck lists in my signature
I've been considering taking apart my Sedris deck for some time now to construct a grixis control deck, and I suspect that if I were to use any commander it'd be either Sedris as a blank-slate commander, or Crosis.
Your list seems pretty solid, though I'm personally not a fan of the wheel-of-pain type deal you're running. It's good, but tends to give a lot of card advantage to others. What do you have to say on this?
I've been considering taking apart my Sedris deck for some time now to construct a grixis control deck, and I suspect that if I were to use any commander it'd be either Sedris as a blank-slate commander, or Crosis.
Your list seems pretty solid, though I'm personally not a fan of the wheel-of-pain type deal you're running. It's good, but tends to give a lot of card advantage to others. What do you have to say on this?
I agree. The wheels are actually not the number one focus of the deck, despite what I've called it (it's just catchy), it's mostly just about drawing with some elements of discard. Wheels are mostly reserved for 3 scenarios (to stop providing CA to others, as you say)
a) The damage done will outweigh any card advantage they get. (Through Psychosis Crawler/Niv or the pain enchants)
b) I am out of cards and/or most of my opponents have fullish hands anyway. (This is rare, admittedly, but does happen)
c) I have Notion Thief on board.
Aside from those situations, the deck mostly focuses around drawing a lot of cards and forcing others to discard. It just so happens that Wheel effects do both at once, so they are useful at times.
I am going to try to squeeze in more dedicated discard that does not help my opponents draw as well, such as Mind Twist, but this list is still in its infancy.
Diminishing Returns is a wheel people forget about all the time. It's worth running because it only costs 4 and you can bring it back from your Graveyard. The exile 10 is a bit rough but I've always found it to be worth it.
Diminishing Returns is a wheel people forget about all the time. It's worth running because it only costs 4 and you can bring it back from your Graveyard. The exile 10 is a bit rough but I've always found it to be worth it.
Yeah that one's not bad. I think I'm set on the amount of wheels in the deck at the moment. If anything I might reduce them.
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Changes today.
8.31.2013
Body Double ===> Necromancy
Essentially the same thing. Sure, Necro isn't a creature itself so it can't be reanimated, but that's probably a good thing. This will let me leave more mana open.
High Market ===> Riptide Laboratory
Not sure why I had High Market in here to begin with. Lol. Riptide will let me reuse Snappy and Glen Elendra, and possibly save Niv from removal or something.
Rite of Replication ===> Phyrexian Metamorph
Trading a pretty strong, but random win-con for a more reliable clone effect that can copy all sorts of things.
I approve of this deck so much I have always wanted to build a Crosis deck for the longest time. Congrats for going through with it. And dem visuals tho...
Have you thought of adding a Ninja package? Ink-Eyes and company have some great synergy with your enchantments and artifacts. Think about it. This deck is awesome. Keep on Purging my friend!
I approve of this deck so much I have always wanted to build a Crosis deck for the longest time. Congrats for going through with it. And dem visuals tho...
Have you thought of adding a Ninja package? Ink-Eyes and company have some great synergy with your enchantments and artifacts. Think about it. This deck is awesome. Keep on Purging my friend!
Thank you!
Yes, I do have Ink-Eyes on my watchlist right now if I need to add a creature. He has nice synergy with the deck, particularly the discard effects. Unfortunately, right now I am pretty happy with the creature core as it stands, but if anything changes he is a top consideration. Thanks for the response!
Small adjustment today. Also made a custom banner (though it's a bit smaller than I anticipated.) Just dled Photoshop again and its been fun :]
9.3.2013
Bloodchief Ascension ==> Torpor Orb
Bloodchief had to go. This is a card that is incredible when it comes online, but the problem is that it is barely online unless you get it super early. And if you get it super early its often removed. So it's definitely cut despite its potential power. It's been swapped for Torpor Orb which should provide a widespread hate for a LOT of creatures that are seen in EDH. I only have two creatures that this will affect (Snapcaster Mage/Diluvian Primordial) which are both basically just luxuries as it were, anyway. If Torpor Orb doesn't work out, this will become Copy Artifact. I think the Orb will be solid, though.
Necromancy ===> Reanimate
Sorceries are just better and easier for us to reuse. Plus its cheaper. The life loss should not matter too much, I hope.
As always, cool deck and good reading.
Have you tried Words of Waste? It's great with Geth's Grimoire.
I'd replace Counterflux with Spell Crumble. I think you'll need to tuck a general more often than win a counterbattle. And with the new gods coming soon...
You already have Mystic Retrieval. It works nicely with Runic Repetition, it gives you "infinite" recursion.
Maybe you can also add Arcane Melee and have 1UURR: Wheel. It's a fast way to draw a lot of cards!
(Actually, melee helps opponents so it's not a great idea. But the interaction is cool).
Words of Waste is cool, but I think a little too mana-intensive and perhaps overkillish. That's cool tech though, it could possibly replace Liliana of the Veil or something at some point. Dunno though.
You realize your wheels kill Psychosis Crawler....
No, I don't realize that because that's not true. State-based actions are checked after the entirety of the wheel resolves, so even though his p/t would technically be 0 in the middle of the wheel, there is no actual 'middle' of the effect, and thus he does not die.
As Beusapu said, I prefer wheel effects because they cause discard. I do use Timetwister because it costs much less mana than Time Spiral. It would be pretty impossible to play both Notion Thief and Time Spiral in a single turn with this deck, unless it is late late game.
Time spiral is good you should try it.
A. Notion thief has flash so that's a non issue
B. time spiral will cost you a net of 0-3 after untap so it's the same as wheel but not usable turn 1-3 for you but that's perfectly fine since your curve can't puke a whole hand before hitting the 3 mans to wheel. Spiral can cost 0 or even ramp you mana.
Yes play time twister
Yes play windfall
Yes play wheel of fortune
But also Yes play time spiral
Sure your not a 100% optimized 1.5 curve wheel deck but honestly they are still broken even at your curve the have insane synergy and are the best cards in your build. It's ok to have the answer I don't want too play that card, but don't try to tell me time twister is good when time spiral is not it doesn't make sense. also I'm jealous of your time twister I don't have one ;(
Time spiral is good you should try it.
A. Notion thief has flash so that's a non issue
B. time spiral will cost you a net of 0-3 after untap so it's the same as wheel but not usable turn 1-3 for you but that's perfectly fine since your curve can't puke a whole hand before hitting the 3 mans to wheel. Spiral can cost 0 or even ramp you mana.
Yes play time twister
Yes play windfall
Yes play wheel of fortune
But also Yes play time spiral
Sure your not a 100% optimized 1.5 curve wheel deck but honestly they are still broken even at your curve the have insane synergy and are the best cards in your build. It's ok to have the answer I don't want too play that card, but don't try to tell me time twister is good when time spiral is not it doesn't make sense. also I'm jealous of your time twister I don't have one ;(
Actually 9 times out of 10 it's NOT going to ramp me, because I use a **** load of artifacts to ramp. 10 Mana to cast both Notion Thief and Time Spiral in a turn does matter. Sure, I could cast Notion Thief a turn before, but that's not always the ideal situation and not always possible (I can't ALWAYS have Notion Thief in my hand/on the field, despite having black for tutors. And in the cases where I don't have him, forcing discard is much more applicable.) Time Spiral is much better in builds with G imo. And like I said, Wheel effects are almost always better because of the synergy with discard. I only have one wheel effect that doesn't force discard for a reason-- and I've considered cutting it but it currently is my only way to shuffle my GY.
Actually 9 times out of 10 it's NOT going to ramp me, because I use a **** load of artifacts to ramp. 10 Mana to cast both Notion Thief and Time Spiral in a turn does matter. Sure, I could cast Notion Thief a turn before, but that's not always the ideal situation and not always possible (I can't ALWAYS have Notion Thief in my hand/on the field, despite having black for tutors. And in the cases where I don't have him, forcing discard is much more applicable.) Time Spiral is much better in builds with G imo. And like I said, Wheel effects are almost always better because of the synergy with discard. I only have one wheel effect that doesn't force discard for a reason-- and I've considered cutting it but it currently is my only way to shuffle my GY.
Here is the thing its says "Draw 7 cards untap 6 lands" thats broken. every card that can do that for cheap is amazing. With just over 10 artifact mana cards even if your using every vampiric tutor on sol ring i dont know how your getting 4 artifact mana before the time you have 3 lands. it cost 0-3 on averge for you like i said same as a wheel its broken or the same reason "draw 7 is good" brokenly banned in most formats restricted in vintage good. Like i said you dont have to run it for instance on real draw back is "cost 6 could get countered i play against lots of counters and if i wheel them into FOW i wont get any value off the untap, and without the word discard its not appealing" i could see something like that. draw 7 is good !
No, I don't realize that because that's not true. State-based actions are checked after the entirety of the wheel resolves, so even though his p/t would technically be 0 in the middle of the wheel, there is no actual 'middle' of the effect, and thus he does not die.
*eats his words and gives props to those who understand rules better*
Sorry, I actually left Psychosis Crawler out of a similar deck because I thought the state-based effect would kill him. The specifics of the game not checking state-based effects until after a spell resolves entirely I didn't know about.
You'll love the Sangromancer, especially Wheel effects. Also, if you have an LED, it's great to crack it in response to a wheel spell.
These are good suggestions. Puzzle box is especially brutal with Notion Thief and Psychosis Crawler, it's probably one of my top considerations for artifacts.
Underworld Dreams is similar in effectiveness, the BBB cost is just a little off-putting.
I don't like Visions or P. Tyranny because they affect me just as much, and that's not something I want.
I have Sangromancer in the build, she can gain so much life
*eats his words and gives props to those who understand rules better*
Sorry, I actually left Psychosis Crawler out of a similar deck because I thought the state-based effect would kill him. The specifics of the game not checking state-based effects until after a spell resolves entirely I didn't know about.
At least you didn't learn the hard way bolting a 2/3 goyf with no
Instants in the yard
These are good suggestions. Puzzle box is especially brutal with Notion Thief and Psychosis Crawler, it's probably one of my top considerations for artifacts.
Underworld Dreams is similar in effectiveness, the BBB cost is just a little off-putting.
I don't like Visions or P. Tyranny because they affect me just as much, and that's not something I want.
I have Sangromancer in the build, she can gain so much life
You have to be careful of Notion Thief on the board. There is no "may draw" keyword here. You can deck yourself out, or some clever players will make you deck out with Notion Thief on board.
Crosis, The Purger
WARNING: This deck contains many large images. I recommend you zoom out twice on your screen (control + - key) for the best reading.
Sup everyone. Welcome to my third decklist on MTGSalv. This time I am focusing on a RBU Grixis BRU control deck, with many elements of punishing and forcing discard. The commander as of right now is Crosis, the Purger, but it could definitely change at any time.
With Grixis colors we get access to BUR:
B: Tutors, wipes, life loss, discard effects, win cons.
U: Counterspells, card draw, wheel effects, clones, and win cons.
R: Wheel effects, some cool planeswalkers, copy effects.
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So with that being said, let's look at why we picked Crosis, the Purger over the other (viable) UBR Grixis BUR commanders.
Crosis, the Purger: Crosis is great for this deck because he allows the shredding of hands (particularly mono and dual colored decks) all while being a well-costed flying beater. We don't need him to win but he certainly is a beast when he can stick onto the field and get some hits in.
Thraximundar: Thrax is a pretty good Grixis commander, and he was definitely considered before making this build. I like that he has haste, and causes a sacrifice much like Eldrazi, however, he has a higher mana cost and his ability does not synergize with discard effects.
Sedris, the Traitor King: This guy is good in a Grixis reanimator build, but that is nothing like we are trying to do right now. It would be interesting to play that style of deck, but reanimator and control are pretty separate archetypes.
Nicol Bolas: Probably the #2 consideration after Crosis for this deck, Nicol Bolas, however, costs much more mana to play, and also has an upkeep cost that must be paid, making him extremely more mana intensive. If he was the commander I don't think we'd ever get to play him. His effect is better, but only by a little bit in most situations.
Garza Zol, Plague Queen: She's extremely over-costed for her ability, and would barely ever even be worth casting. It's nice that she has haste but she really doesn't do anything fantastic. If I wanted a grixis commander like her I would just use Thrax anyway.
Gwendlyn Di Corci: While not terrible, her ability is kinda 'meh' in a game where you have 3 other opponents.
Lord of Tressorhorn: His ability lends itself more to a sac and recur type strategy or maybe even a voltron strategy and is not what we're trying to do here.
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6 Crosis, the Purger
Artifact
0 Mana Crypt
1 Expedition Mapt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
2 Dimir Signet
2 Izzet Signet
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Torpor Orb
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Chromatic Lantern
3 Grim Monolith
4 Geth's Grimoire
4 Thran Dynamo
5 Gilded Lotus
5 Memory Jar
Creature
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Notion Thief
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Sangromancer
5 Psychosis Crawler
6 Consecrated Sphinx
6 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
7 Diluvian Primordial
1 Mystic Remora
2 Animate Dead
2 Liliana's Caress
3 Megrim
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Rhystic Study
Instant
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Counterspell
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Mana Drain
2 Negate
3 Spell Crumple
3 Dissipate
3 Hinder
3 Reiterate
5 Force of Will
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chandra, the Firebrand
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
8 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Sorcery
1 Reanimate
1 Vandalblast
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Praetor's Grasp
3 Timetwister
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Windfall
5 Bribery
4 Consuming Vapors
4 Damnation
4 Mystical Retrieval
4 Syphon Mind
5 Time Warp
8 Decree of Pain
Utility Land
1 Homeward Path
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Reliquary Tower
The deck currently tries to win by utilizing discard effects and wheel effects to both draw us a lot of cards and deny the opponents cards, or force them to be dealt damage for drawing/discarding them. To support that, there are a lot of elements of typical control including counterspells and board wipes. Now for the individual card breakdown.
Crosis, the Purger: He is one of our win cons, but mostly he is just a flying beater that helps shred the enemies hands. We don't need him to win but he certainly can help out, particularly against mono or dual colored opponents.
The Main WinConMen
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind: A classic combo guy, but we won't be using his combos here. But for every draw we get he gives us a little bit of burn.. and we're gonna get a lot of draw.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker: Not a traditional way to win, but this guy can definitely seal the deal if he stays out long enough. All 3 of his abilities are golden.
Psychosis Crawler: One of the best ways to win in the deck. Every draw converts to -1 for our enemies, and this can seriously add up. Plus his p/t in itself will be quite large.
Megrim: Wheel effects + this = mucho damage. Any discard will add up though.
Liliana's Caress: Same thing as Megrim, but is cheaper! Redundancy is good in this department.
Exsanguinate: I know, a little weird to be in this deck, but we like to make our opponents lose life, and with Coffers this is a smash.
Bribery: Not necessarily a win-con in itself but it does help us win the game a lot of the time by playing any creature from a library for 3UU.
[CARD]
Wheel of Fortune[/CARD]: Where the term 'Wheel effect' comes from in magic. Unfortunately this refills our opponents hands to the brim so we want to try to do this only when a) they already have 6-7 cards or we have 0 cards b) we have a Notion Thief out, or c) it will win us the game.
Windfall: A weaker Wheel effect which is sometimes okay with us. Does pretty much the same thing except isn't always 7 cards.
Memory Jar: Wheel effect on an artifact. This one is unique because we only have one turn to play the hand. But definitely the best wheel effect to play because it is basically only beneficial to us.
Timetwister: This one is a little different because it doesn't actually cause discard, but rather, it shuffles cards back into the library. Serving as pseudo-grave hate and also another Wheel effect. Might come out for Whispering Madness, though.
Consecrated Sphinx: Probably the best card to draw with in multiplayer EDH. Attracts a ton of hate though. Always worth it anyway.
Notion Thief: Such a trickster. Makes our wheel effects basically be mass discard without any draw for them. Probably one of the best cards in the deck.
Geth's Grimoire: Really turns cards into Liliana of the Veil and Syphon Mind into great ways to draw. Also works well with the general.
Mystic Remora: Easy draw off an enchantment. The upkeep isn't much mana with all our mana artifacts.
Rhystic Study: A lot like Remora, but it will be out for good, until someone is pissed and removes it. Will draw us a good bit of cards a majority of the time.
Phyrexian Arena: Slow rollin extra card per turn. Cool.
Chandra, the Firebrand: Her ability to copy instant/sorceries make her so amazing. Can double wheel effects, Exsanguinates, Briberies, basically anything works. She really gets the job done.
Liliana of the Veil: Group discard as well as an edict effect all packed into a well costed hard to kill planeswalker. She's extremely good in this deck because generally we have enough cards to discard, or we gain a lot from our opponents discarding.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: The infamous Jace is extremely good in this deck. Both his brainstorm and unsummon ability are extremely useful, and his +2 works decently to get back some of his loyalty.
Negate: Hard counter to noncreature spells which make up probably 50-60% of the spells in EDH. Good stuff.
Counterspell: The basic counterspell.
Mana Drain: The basic counterspell with the huge added bonus of giving us extra mana next turn.
Hinder: The tuck counter, always nice to have.
Dissipate: The exile counter, always nice to have.
Force of Will: The freebie counter, extremely useful in all situations. Lets hope you have a blue card in hand.
Spell Crumple: Another tuck counter woo.
Glen Elendra Archmage: Negate on a stickx2. Always included in my U decks.
Vandalblast: Beastly artifact sweeper. 4R and you hit everything but your own!
[CARD]
Cyclonic Rift[/CARD]: The overload is so good on this card. Instant speed amazingness that hits everything.
Mind Twist: Proactive removal rather than reactive
[CARD]
Consuming Vapors[/CARD]: A 2-for-1 sac effect that gains us back health. Can be extremely useful in a lot of different situations.
Damnation: Classic cheapo wrath effect.
Decree of Pain: Wrath effect that lets us draw cards! or you can use its cycling version if need be.
Mystical Tutor: Any instant/sorcery to the top of our library. Can really save our asses sometimes.
Vampiric Tutor: Same as mystical except it can fetch ANY card. Really top tier tutor.
Demonic Tutor: The most basic and powerful tutor. 1B and right into your hand. Use it wisely.
Grim Tutor: Another basic tutor effect that is worse than Demonic by far, but still very good.
Praetor's Grasp: A tutor for... another person's deck? This is pretty useful because we are running 3 colors.. we likely can cast a lot of different things. Also good in the early game for fetching a Sol Ring or something.
Thada Adel, Aquisitor: A semi-tutor here, if she connects with the opponent we can search their library for an artifact and cast it if we want. Pretty cool effect.
Snapcaster Mage: Gives us another chance to cast our instant/sorceries at instant speed. Especially good for counterspells and tutors.
Mystic Retrieval: Similar to Snapcaster, except this works at sorcery speed and can be flashbacked itself! Lots of value from this one.
Reanimate: Brings back win-cons or cards we've milled.
Volrath's Stronghold: This is a land but it gets a mention for bringing back our win-con creatures, or any creature we desperately need.
Animate Dead: Gives us another chance to get back our dead creatures, or even someone elses creatures.
Syphon Mind: Both a draw spell and a discard effect in one. Valueeeeeeeeeeeee.
Phyrexian Metamorph: A nice clone ability that hits all sorts of stuff.
Sangromancer: A little bit of health gain to off-set the damage we will inevitably take from being an annoying control deck and also that we deal ourselves.
Reiterate: It's always cool to copy spells, whether its our own spells or someone elses. This has a lot of different uses and even has buyback.
Diluvian Primordial: This guy can usually hit some gold if we have been forcing discard during the game, which hopefully we have been. A really solid creature that can even close out games. Sits at the top of our curve right now.
Torpor Orb: The amount of cards that this completely hoses in EDH creates a huge list. This is a solid card when it (barely) affects you.
Changelog:
8.31.2013
Body Double ===> NecromancyEssentially the same thing. Sure, Necro isn't a creature itself so it can't be reanimated, but that's probably a good thing. This will let me leave more mana open.
High Market ===> Riptide LaboratoryNot sure why I had High Market in here to begin with. Lol. Riptide will let me reuse Snappy and Glen Elendra, and possibly save Niv from removal or something.
Rite of Replication ===> Phyrexian MetamorphTrading a pretty strong, but random win-con for a more reliable clone effect that can copy all sorts of things.
Treachery ===> Mind TwistTreachery is a good card but Mind Twist fits better with the theme and probably will synergize better.
Bloodchief Ascension ==> Torpor Orb
Bloodchief had to go. This is a card that is incredible when it comes online, but the problem is that it is barely online unless you get it super early. And if you get it super early its often removed. So it's definitely cut despite its potential power. It's been swapped for Torpor Orb which should provide a widespread hate for a LOT of creatures that are seen in EDH. I only have two creatures that this will affect (Snapcaster Mage/Diluvian Primordial) which are both basically just luxuries as it were, anyway. If Torpor Orb doesn't work out, this will become Copy Artifact. I think the Orb will be solid, though.
Necromancy ===> Reanimate
Sorceries are just better and easier for us to reuse. Plus its cheaper. The life loss should not matter too much, I hope.
Thanks for taking the time to read my list, I'm open to all suggestions! Also check out my other two deck lists in my signature
Username: Cabz
Your list seems pretty solid, though I'm personally not a fan of the wheel-of-pain type deal you're running. It's good, but tends to give a lot of card advantage to others. What do you have to say on this?
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I agree. The wheels are actually not the number one focus of the deck, despite what I've called it (it's just catchy), it's mostly just about drawing with some elements of discard. Wheels are mostly reserved for 3 scenarios (to stop providing CA to others, as you say)
a) The damage done will outweigh any card advantage they get. (Through Psychosis Crawler/Niv or the pain enchants)
b) I am out of cards and/or most of my opponents have fullish hands anyway. (This is rare, admittedly, but does happen)
c) I have Notion Thief on board.
Aside from those situations, the deck mostly focuses around drawing a lot of cards and forcing others to discard. It just so happens that Wheel effects do both at once, so they are useful at times.
I am going to try to squeeze in more dedicated discard that does not help my opponents draw as well, such as Mind Twist, but this list is still in its infancy.
Username: Cabz
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Yeah that one's not bad. I think I'm set on the amount of wheels in the deck at the moment. If anything I might reduce them.
Changes today.
8.31.2013
Essentially the same thing. Sure, Necro isn't a creature itself so it can't be reanimated, but that's probably a good thing. This will let me leave more mana open.
High Market ===> Riptide Laboratory
Not sure why I had High Market in here to begin with. Lol. Riptide will let me reuse Snappy and Glen Elendra, and possibly save Niv from removal or something.
Rite of Replication ===> Phyrexian Metamorph
Trading a pretty strong, but random win-con for a more reliable clone effect that can copy all sorts of things.
Treachery ===> Mind Twist
Treachery is a good card but Mind Twist fits better with the theme and probably will synergize better.
Primer will reflect these changes soon.
Username: Cabz
Have you thought of adding a Ninja package? Ink-Eyes and company have some great synergy with your enchantments and artifacts. Think about it. This deck is awesome. Keep on Purging my friend!
Epic Signature by the one and only Ace in Ace of Spades Studio
Proud member of the Spirit of EDH
BGW Teneb, the Harvester [Primer]
R Márton Stromgald
WUB Dakkon Blackblade
GR Atarka, World Render
{Writing and Rants}
WUBRG The Primeval Dragon's influence on EDH
Thank you!
Yes, I do have Ink-Eyes on my watchlist right now if I need to add a creature. He has nice synergy with the deck, particularly the discard effects. Unfortunately, right now I am pretty happy with the creature core as it stands, but if anything changes he is a top consideration. Thanks for the response!
Username: Cabz
9.3.2013
Bloodchief Ascension ==> Torpor Orb
Bloodchief had to go. This is a card that is incredible when it comes online, but the problem is that it is barely online unless you get it super early. And if you get it super early its often removed. So it's definitely cut despite its potential power. It's been swapped for Torpor Orb which should provide a widespread hate for a LOT of creatures that are seen in EDH. I only have two creatures that this will affect (Snapcaster Mage/Diluvian Primordial) which are both basically just luxuries as it were, anyway. If Torpor Orb doesn't work out, this will become Copy Artifact. I think the Orb will be solid, though.
Necromancy ===> Reanimate
Sorceries are just better and easier for us to reuse. Plus its cheaper. The life loss should not matter too much, I hope.
Username: Cabz
Words of Waste is cool, but I think a little too mana-intensive and perhaps overkillish. That's cool tech though, it could possibly replace Liliana of the Veil or something at some point. Dunno though.
Took your advice on Counterflux vs. Spell Crumple.
I don't like Arcane Melee because it helps my opponents, and costs too much.
Runic Repetition is too narrow.
Thanks though "Beus of Calamity", how did you cheat the system and get a title already? lol
Username: Cabz
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
No, I don't realize that because that's not true. State-based actions are checked after the entirety of the wheel resolves, so even though his p/t would technically be 0 in the middle of the wheel, there is no actual 'middle' of the effect, and thus he does not die.
Username: Cabz
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
It's still worth running it works with notion Thief untaping makes it a virtual free draw 7. I agree wheel is better, should still run both.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
You always want more wheels they make the bus go round
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
As Beusapu said, I prefer wheel effects because they cause discard. I do use Timetwister because it costs much less mana than Time Spiral. It would be pretty impossible to play both Notion Thief and Time Spiral in a single turn with this deck, unless it is late late game.
Username: Cabz
A. Notion thief has flash so that's a non issue
B. time spiral will cost you a net of 0-3 after untap so it's the same as wheel but not usable turn 1-3 for you but that's perfectly fine since your curve can't puke a whole hand before hitting the 3 mans to wheel. Spiral can cost 0 or even ramp you mana.
Yes play time twister
Yes play windfall
Yes play wheel of fortune
But also Yes play time spiral
Sure your not a 100% optimized 1.5 curve wheel deck but honestly they are still broken even at your curve the have insane synergy and are the best cards in your build. It's ok to have the answer I don't want too play that card, but don't try to tell me time twister is good when time spiral is not it doesn't make sense. also I'm jealous of your time twister I don't have one ;(
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Actually 9 times out of 10 it's NOT going to ramp me, because I use a **** load of artifacts to ramp. 10 Mana to cast both Notion Thief and Time Spiral in a turn does matter. Sure, I could cast Notion Thief a turn before, but that's not always the ideal situation and not always possible (I can't ALWAYS have Notion Thief in my hand/on the field, despite having black for tutors. And in the cases where I don't have him, forcing discard is much more applicable.) Time Spiral is much better in builds with G imo. And like I said, Wheel effects are almost always better because of the synergy with discard. I only have one wheel effect that doesn't force discard for a reason-- and I've considered cutting it but it currently is my only way to shuffle my GY.
Username: Cabz
Here is the thing its says "Draw 7 cards untap 6 lands" thats broken. every card that can do that for cheap is amazing. With just over 10 artifact mana cards even if your using every vampiric tutor on sol ring i dont know how your getting 4 artifact mana before the time you have 3 lands. it cost 0-3 on averge for you like i said same as a wheel its broken or the same reason "draw 7 is good" brokenly banned in most formats restricted in vintage good. Like i said you dont have to run it for instance on real draw back is "cost 6 could get countered i play against lots of counters and if i wheel them into FOW i wont get any value off the untap, and without the word discard its not appealing" i could see something like that. draw 7 is good !
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
As such, I play with: -
You'll love the Sangromancer, especially Wheel effects. Also, if you have an LED, it's great to crack it in response to a wheel spell.
*eats his words and gives props to those who understand rules better*
Sorry, I actually left Psychosis Crawler out of a similar deck because I thought the state-based effect would kill him. The specifics of the game not checking state-based effects until after a spell resolves entirely I didn't know about.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
These are good suggestions. Puzzle box is especially brutal with Notion Thief and Psychosis Crawler, it's probably one of my top considerations for artifacts.
Underworld Dreams is similar in effectiveness, the BBB cost is just a little off-putting.
I don't like Visions or P. Tyranny because they affect me just as much, and that's not something I want.
I have Sangromancer in the build, she can gain so much life
Thanks for the suggestions.
Username: Cabz
At least you didn't learn the hard way bolting a 2/3 goyf with no
Instants in the yard
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Underworld Dreams, Spiteful Visions and Phyrexian Tyranny are all great. You don't have to be afraid of the life loss as you can tutor for Sangromancer.
You have to be careful of Notion Thief on the board. There is no "may draw" keyword here. You can deck yourself out, or some clever players will make you deck out with Notion Thief on board.
I also suggest Yawgmoth's Will and Past in Flames to reuse those wheel effect cards.
If you want more wheel effects, there's Reforge the Soul, Incendiary Command, Whispering Madness, Magus of the Jar.