Man, ISB, you make all these decks I want to make. Lin Sivvi, now this. One day I will have money and will own a deck besides Krenko! One day...
Anyway, I've found that Tragic Slip is a pretty damn good kill spell in this format.
hes just sooooooo flavorful and cool its hard not to like Toshi
Tragic Slip - its not bad. I like it from an angle of flashing it back because obviously we have already accomplished the fact that something has died. The big downer for me is that sometimes I use my kill spells to open me up to flashing something else back and it looses that ability to some extent because you would be going for killing a 1/1 just to open you up to that option. I think it is a cool card but I try to go with the least situational card possible in a lot of cases and I can think of a lot of turns where things just wont naturally die for me.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was caught between this an Shirei, but I figured this would be better as a long-term deck since Shirei seems like it could fall apart once people catch on to the shenanigans.
I was caught between this an Shirei, but I figured this would be better as a long-term deck since Shirei seems like it could fall apart once people catch on to the shenanigans.
Shirei runs the issue of being more centrally focused in the fact that without the commander it is a problem. Toshi is more of a value engine but does have a lot of influence in what makes the list.
Welcome to the dark side :D. Considering I have altered my rebels to be star wars themed I have been rather tempted to alter a Toshiro to be the emperor lol. My last alter bill wasn't cheap though so I think I will wait a while even if it would be smaller scale on the next one.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Its totally getting slotted up for some play :D. Sure, its not extremely cheap but we can abuse it and its an indestructible instant speed rez from ANY yard. I LOVE IT!
I also think that Bile Blight is a nifty card for dealing with utility guys and tokens but I dont know if I am going to consider it yet offhand. It seems like it warrants some consideration though.
I just noticed you don't run yaw will! Is there a reason?
Its mostly that my spells have flashback already. Its not a bad idea for replaying creatures and artifacts I suppose but initially I just wrote it off as I already have tons of recursion through other means. It might be something to take a look at from the perspective of its sort of a rez effect in itself or to rez art / enchantments but originally I dismissed it because my commander already does flashback with the spells and I am already heavy rez based. When it comes to rezing a creature, its not very productive so it comes down to really if you are buying back coffers / getting back a key artifact or something really. It might be worth testing but like I said, its likely not that effective of a creature rez and it doesn't really work that well for my instants since I can already rebuy them.
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Its really good, my only problem is that when used to recover a 6 mana creature or something its generally not good as its a bad recovery spell at that point and most of the instants which would normally be good targets due to low costs are already targets for toshiro to reuse so it comes down to.... lands and probably 15 cards out of the deck that you are really want to be targeting. I think its a little narrow myself so I would be more inclined to run the Petrified Field just because it doesn't eat up a nonland slot.
In my mind, with Yawgmoth's Will, you really want a lot of cheap effects that give a lot of power and most of the deck is already running reanimation and reuse so... I just dont see the quantity of things that I would really make me want to use yag will in here. My own preference for running yag will is generally more towards decks that dont have a lot of reanimation in them already. We are already a bit weak towards graveyard hate and yag will is one of those cards you really want to cast it, and then cast like 3+ things that would be otherwise difficult for you to get back.
EDIT:Crucible of Worlds is also an option to consider. Its gets better if you add fetchlands though for sure.
Sweet deck list, I was thinking of dismantling my Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed deck and you've given me plenty of ideas what to do with most of the cards. Anyway, I was looking at you list and was going to say that Devour in Shadow would probably be a fairly strong card, especially over something with any restrictions like Victim of Night as you seem to have plenty of ways to sustain yourself in here so the life loss, hopefully, wouldn't be an issue.
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Sweet deck list, I was thinking of dismantling my Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed deck and you've given me plenty of ideas what to do with most of the cards. Anyway, I was looking at you list and was going to say that Devour in Shadow would probably be a fairly strong card, especially over something with any restrictions like Victim of Night as you seem to have plenty of ways to sustain yourself in here so the life loss, hopefully, wouldn't be an issue.
Always glad to see another interested in Toshiro. He is a really cool commander and it took me a long time to find a direction that really worked for him to be honest.
Devour in Shadow - its not bad at all. I just dont overly love loosing life to my own effects if I dont need to. Sometimes with spot removal you will find yourself chaining it twice in a row and I could see potential for that really hurting with devour. Victim of Night generally works on like 95% of everything you will see outside of a few oddities like Olivia Voldaren and Thraximundar being sort of the few that come to mind. You could always make the swap to it and see how you like it but most things that I am willing to use a spot removal on are not a problem for victim. There is also the option of going to some of the other three mana removals like Murder or possibly even Dismember if it really came down to it but I really like 1-2 mana spot removal. Dismember has been one I have been sort of back and forth on as well for a while because I would hate to have it in hand when someone drops a Consecrated Sphinx or a Sun Titan so its sort of kept me from running it.
Anyways, it seems legit enough to play with it and see how you like it. I haven't really overly had an issue with victim though.
Also, I keep getting closer and closer to sliding Bile Blight into my list for some testing. It might need to happen here sometime. I realize that its essentially just a stronger Echoing Decay but hitting for -3/-3 seems like it could be useful against a lot of utility creatures as well as tokens. I haven't quite committed to testing it but I suspect it will find its way in for some gametime at some point.
I've got him almost built as well, and I'd like to offer a couple of ideas.
I see it on your consideration list, but Shriveling Rot seems like it could be a blowout. I know certain decks in my meta that card would crush, and it could pair nicely with another reanimation target, Pestilence Demon (and friends).
Another good reanimation target you could include is Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Being able to get back stuff like Exsanguinate or a powerful instant so it won't get exiled by Toshi seems boss, and Chainer + X-D is lolzapalooza '98.
With everything dying Grave Betrayal seems like a decent consideration, though it is expensive.
Bile Blight will go in for testing too. I play against a couple different decks with Elf and Gobbo tokens, and it still ends annoying generals like Kaalia, Edric, Captain Sisay, etc.
Hey thanks. I myself was actually a bit surprised that it worked because my first attempt at toshiro ended up being really sort of bad lol.
Shriveling Rot my biggest issue offhand is that its so situational. I dont have a lot of creatures and or tokens to try to do combat trades so it really comes down as an effect that works best when someone else is hitting a wrath due to someone's crazy board state or someone is ramming creatures into another player's creatures. In the end, it was too situational on other people doing things and seemed difficult to micromanage with another wrath on my own. I see potential for crazy things from it but it felt too much like it was one of theose sort of cards you sit on all game hoping the perfect opening aligns so you can nuke someone.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed if I recall correctly, I ran him for a while. The problem is that I run like 20 creatures and 30 spells or something arround about that. I already have great spot creature recovery and my commander already works with my instants so it leaves black sorceries and enchantments left for him to work with. That just made up too little of my deck that he nicely reanimates with. I have to play a numbers game with him and when I have like what... 5-10% of the deck as targets and only probably 3-5% of them being ones I would want to use him on he ended up being lackluster for me.
Grave Betrayal its a lot of mana for something that does nothing when it drops has always been my issue with this sort of card. My opponents wont let me keep something like it and its a lot of mana to drop it and try to achieve something else yet that same turn.
Tainted Strike its hard to cast it and flash it back at the same point in time and without doing it it seems like it would loose a lot of its surprise factor. Its possible if I ran Inkmoth Nexus and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon that it would be useful as an additional way to connect and kill opponents. It seems interesting but too often I feel like it wont be reliable and if it doesnt lead to killing someone then its sort of not worth doing.
Tragic Slip my only concern is that its sort of a follow up kill more than anything. I suppose the option of casting it to kill a token or something and then flashing it back could be an option but it worries me. Its probably playable but I might want to be running a little heavier on the spot kills to run it myself (I might end up going heavier anyways as I sometimes dont feel like I have enough spot removal in here).
EDIT: sry, super last second deckchange to try to get a change of pace in.
DECK CHANGE:
Nim Deathmantle -> Bile Blight the deathmantle has been shakey for a while now as I dont pack a lot of sac outlets. I have been sort of thinking about including more cheap removal as well so I can trigger toshiro and move spells a bit better (sometimes people just dont kill stuff).
The deck has been working out well currently. I have drawn Bile Blight and it looked useful except it was like... as I was murdering everyone with a Chainer looping Grey Merchant so I guess it wasn't quite as necessary when I drew it so obviously not much for a test so far.
Someone else randomly hit a Death Cloud for 3 in the game I was playing in which oddly put me sort of in the lead since many opponents discarded the rest of their hands and I had been ramping off of a Sakura-Tribe Elder early on with a Coffin Queen until someone exiled that graveyard on me / then exiled the queen. I was sort of impressed by the Death Cloud though to be honest since it is sort of an X damage spell as well as sort of a wrath of sorts. It has me sort of considering adding it to this list since I could see myself using it even just as a small X to wrath + eat hands. I am going to sort of put it on the backburner for now and keep thinking about it.
In other news, I got my first kill with False Cure and it was hilarious. I havent seen the card a ton yet but we have a lot of pressure decks and so a lot of people have been resorting to utilizing some lifegain to counter it. This deck also has some siphoning effects that can be annoying of others gain life against so it seems interesting to me still as I want to keep testing it. It seems like a meta call card though so it really depends on what people in your group are running but I am still intrigued by it in here as it did like 25 damage or something in my case when someone went to Children of Korlis a Phyrexian Processor hit and I killed him in response. There are a lot of potentially very impactful ways to cast it though especially against like an Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless as it could easily kill the caster assuming you live yourself.
I have been sort of thinking about adding more hand hate to my list as of right now as occasionally I will clump up a few rez spells with nothing to target with them which is really annoying. I think I am going to make a little swap to try to push more on hand hate as I still have a feeling that Sheoldred is really super slow and draws too much hate for how dang slow she is.
DECK CHANGE:
Sheoldred, Whispering One -> Myojin of Night's Reach I have always enjoyed what Myojin does to my opponents since I play in sort of a control based meta. Too many people draw too many cards as a regular strategy. I get the feeling that Sheoldred is just too slow at getting her value which has always been sort of my fear with her. Myojin is a very fast turnaround style of value card as it really slows opponents way down making him a good means to lean into like a Chainer abuse loop or something of that sort or even just a means to set myself up with some rez targets.
Death Cloud is definitely on my radar now though as it was amusing in the game where someone else cast it to deal with an eldrazi. I can often abuse other player's land ramp too so I could see even just casting it for a few being profitable often. I used to run it in my GB Varolz deck and while I felt it was too silly there in a ramp abuse deck I feel like it would be an acceptable tool here. I might consider bringing it in for Exsanguinate possibly.
Personally... I dont see why you would pick either one really. Maralen is too easy to tutor for an answer for and thus just answer her. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed in my mind if you were to run mono black at all might be one to consider just because he gives you the chance to recover built in if they manage to counter you but more realistically I dont see why you wouldn't go BUX just to have access to counterspells and cheap dig.
While Toshiro could be amusing, like I said before, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed just seems more reliable for that strategy if you are looking for a fall back in case someone hits you with a counter on your first attempt. Good players wont allow Maralen to stick for a turn rotation so I wouldn't bother with her.
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Personally... I dont see why you would pick either one really. Maralen is too easy to tutor for an answer for and thus just answer her. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed in my mind if you were to run mono black at all might be one to consider just because he gives you the chance to recover built in if they manage to counter you but more realistically I dont see why you wouldn't go BUX just to have access to counterspells and cheap dig.
While Toshiro could be amusing, like I said before, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed just seems more reliable for that strategy if you are looking for a fall back in case someone hits you with a counter on your first attempt. Good players wont allow Maralen to stick for a turn rotation so I wouldn't bother with her.
Xiahou does seem like a better choice. The thing is, I'm planning on building a mono deck deck for each color and I'm trying to decide what direction. It's either Chainer reanimation or ad Nauseum combo. I agree that BUx (probably Esper) is best for that but I don't want to change my Esper deck to that and I want to build my monos before building another multi color deck.
Personally, I think that Ad Nauseam is a one trick pony style of deck. It is also very expensive to build it correctly since it usually involves including like every tutor in print and moxes and such for a one trick pony deck. I dont really know how much "fun" there is in such a build really as it sounds sort of boring to me since the whole deck design is so focused on the design of Ad Nauseam.
That is just my own personal take on it though. I dont much enjoy combo but Ad Nauseam in particular is just so focused on going off that I think its harder to really execute in some way other than going off with Ad Nauseam. I would personally probably go with the other black option over doing a mono black Ad Nauseam build in part because I sort of get the feeling that if you are going to go that direction anyways, going into UBX is going to be the direction you want to be going anyways.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Personally, I think that Ad Nauseam is a one trick pony style of deck. It is also very expensive to build it correctly since it usually involves including like every tutor in print and moxes and such for a one trick pony deck. I dont really know how much "fun" there is in such a build really as it sounds sort of boring to me since the whole deck design is so focused on the design of Ad Nauseam.
That is just my own personal take on it though. I dont much enjoy combo but Ad Nauseam in particular is just so focused on going off that I think its harder to really execute in some way other than going off with Ad Nauseam. I would personally probably go with the other black option over doing a mono black Ad Nauseam build in part because I sort of get the feeling that if you are going to go that direction anyways, going into UBX is going to be the direction you want to be going anyways.
Agreed. I'll probably just end up making an alternative build for my Oloro that is ad Naus. I already have a lot if the cards needed in there and could use it if I ever end up in a super competitive tourney. There is a really strong list for it over in the 1v1 forums (but uses MP ban list).
For my mono black deck I'll probably go with Chainer or some version of Toshiro spell slinger. As with all your decks I'll probably borrow a few ideas. False Cure kills are just hilarious. It could really punish the other guys at my LGS that run more dedicated life gain builds with Oloro.
There are a lot of really solid spellslingers / reanimators in mono black. Toshiro gives more of a focus to spellslinging than most of the other reanimators but its just a slightly different flavor on reanimator not to mention my own build is far from the only direction Toshiro could go but I feel that reanimator is sort of one of the strengths of mono black so I felt it was a strong focus.
I included False Cure in part because I was just seeing a little more of things like Kokusho / Exsanguinate / Debt to the Deathless than I felt was really necessary and I felt like it would be a fun little turn around to just gib someone off who got greedy. I haven't managed to use it a lot yet but it might make some people think twice about pushing all in. I think it is to some extent still sort of a meta call style of card but I see some power in it if the conditions are right. Still, there are a lot of situational cards out there so I cant necessarily say that it is a huge haymaker but I still want to run into the situation where I cast False Cure, spot remove a creature, and flash it back in the same turn as it would wreck like any lifegain at that point.
If you have any other questions pertaining to Toshiro and or my build I would be happy to answer them. There are a lot of options though for solid mono black commanders so give them a once through as each has their own merits.
I included Shriveling Rot but haven't seen it yet. In my meta there are a good amount of creatures trading in combat, and tokens as well. I'm stoked for Rot into Bile Blight on a crap-ton of 2/3 Plant tokens, or Rhyss Saprolings.
I've actually used Ad Nauseum to great effect in my Toshiro deck, though not as a combo piece. More as a "fill my hand with fun stuff" card. With an average CMC of 3.5 for example, it can easily turn into a safe way to draw 6 or 7 cards (albeit at great cost to life). But it's easy enough to gain life back in black.
Tendrils of Agony, Kokusho, Exsanguinate. I do tend to run Toshiro as a suicide black deck, but with much less emphasis on comboing out as rapidly as possible. I usually just win through hatred or with an Exsanguinate.
I have considered Ad Nauseam a few times to be honest but I have a few more 6+ drops than I care to be running to get away with it. It seems like a legit card to run depending on average mana curves. I guess my average CMC is 3.56 which isn't horrible... it still has me worried though I guess.
Still, I just envision myself getting bad luck and hitting a few 6s in a row or something bad.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I too have been playing Toshi ever since M13, borrowing most of your ideas. Got to say, easily one of my top three favorite decks to play even in a casual 1v1 setting. For the same reasons DOT Enkidu has stated, the deck really has it's own flavor and it's not just your ordinary goodstuff deck.
I really want to just chime in and say that I really, really enjoyed this deck and idea, ISB. You inspired me to play mono-black with a fun general. :]
One card that has been testing really well in my Toshi list is Rise of the Dark Realms--this card won me at least two games because of how many creatures are dying. This, combined with Geth and Mesmeric Orb makes it so I gain the dominant board position late in the game. I've yet to run into the situation of someone countering my RotDR with an Insurrection or another Wrath, but my meta runs little of the former...your thoughts?
Rise of the Dark Realms has some issues that I see with it right away. In my mind, you want to be pushing free sac outlets fairly well to get away with it. It could backfire in a few other situations such as Warp World, Homeward Path, and opponents running grave hate. It reminds me a lot of Praetor's Counsel where you want it super late in the game and it is very dependent on what has happened so far that game in how it functions. I like the card but I think I like it more in a deck that doesn't have a lot of graveyard reliance to it and is more built around sacrifice outlets. My meta happens to run probably more Homeward Path than the normal meta so its also sort of annoying due to that.
I think its an ok effect but when it is working well, the deck as a whole is probably doing good too since people are probably not properly hating on graveyards and this is the type of card where you want graves to just be crazy huge. Sepulchral Primordial could possibly function very similarly as well if you want to put some testing into it. I have seen it loop several times due to clones cloning the primordial and just chaining into everything from all graves. Since it is a creature as well, it puts more likelihood into being able to abuse it if you happen to mill it or it gets countered.
Overall, I think the card is ok but when the deck as a whole isnt working so great, it probably wont work so great either. It is hard for us to really abuse as well which makes it a little awkward.
DECK CHANGE:
Darksteel Plate -> Attrition honestly, I have been less in love with the plate of late. Its an ok card but I really dont have an issue recasting toshiro since he is so cheap to start. The plate was more from my prior builds where I didn't have a lot of creatures and so I needed to be able to chump block better. I want to see how Attrition plays for me since it offers me another sac outlet as well as a means to trigger flashback. I suspect, it will draw a lot of hatred but whatever. Sometimes I just have to roll out a change and see what happens.
EDIT: sorry about the last second change but I had a second card I wanted to swap out.
Praetor's Grasp -> Mimic Vat I have had some ok results with the grasp but overall its been sort of shakey a little more often than I care for. Generally speaking, I can get away with Oblivion Stone or Simulacrum fairly regularly but I dont think its something regular enough for me to feel it worthy of a slot. If I played against more mono black I would love to use it as an additional coffers but essentially nobody else is playing mono black in my meta. Mimic Vat I pulled out a while back but I have added more removal since then so I sort of want to get it more testing. I like how its a little harder to hate on it with graveyard removal.
If you like the idea of casting one of your opponents' spells, and would rather have an instant, try Word of Command instead of Praetor's Grasp. Maybe you can replace something expensive (mana wise), like Tsabo's Decree. It goes well with the general and has a low CMC, if nothing else.
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hes just sooooooo flavorful and cool its hard not to like Toshi
Tragic Slip - its not bad. I like it from an angle of flashing it back because obviously we have already accomplished the fact that something has died. The big downer for me is that sometimes I use my kill spells to open me up to flashing something else back and it looses that ability to some extent because you would be going for killing a 1/1 just to open you up to that option. I think it is a cool card but I try to go with the least situational card possible in a lot of cases and I can think of a lot of turns where things just wont naturally die for me.
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Shirei runs the issue of being more centrally focused in the fact that without the commander it is a problem. Toshi is more of a value engine but does have a lot of influence in what makes the list.
Welcome to the dark side :D. Considering I have altered my rebels to be star wars themed I have been rather tempted to alter a Toshiro to be the emperor lol. My last alter bill wasn't cheap though so I think I will wait a while even if it would be smaller scale on the next one.
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Its totally getting slotted up for some play :D. Sure, its not extremely cheap but we can abuse it and its an indestructible instant speed rez from ANY yard. I LOVE IT!
DECK CHANGE:
Pontiff of Blight -> Fated Return pontiff was just sort of a pipe dream but I just dont see it working.
I also think that Bile Blight is a nifty card for dealing with utility guys and tokens but I dont know if I am going to consider it yet offhand. It seems like it warrants some consideration though.
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Its mostly that my spells have flashback already. Its not a bad idea for replaying creatures and artifacts I suppose but initially I just wrote it off as I already have tons of recursion through other means. It might be something to take a look at from the perspective of its sort of a rez effect in itself or to rez art / enchantments but originally I dismissed it because my commander already does flashback with the spells and I am already heavy rez based. When it comes to rezing a creature, its not very productive so it comes down to really if you are buying back coffers / getting back a key artifact or something really. It might be worth testing but like I said, its likely not that effective of a creature rez and it doesn't really work that well for my instants since I can already rebuy them.
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In my mind, with Yawgmoth's Will, you really want a lot of cheap effects that give a lot of power and most of the deck is already running reanimation and reuse so... I just dont see the quantity of things that I would really make me want to use yag will in here. My own preference for running yag will is generally more towards decks that dont have a lot of reanimation in them already. We are already a bit weak towards graveyard hate and yag will is one of those cards you really want to cast it, and then cast like 3+ things that would be otherwise difficult for you to get back.
EDIT: Crucible of Worlds is also an option to consider. Its gets better if you add fetchlands though for sure.
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Always glad to see another interested in Toshiro. He is a really cool commander and it took me a long time to find a direction that really worked for him to be honest.
Devour in Shadow - its not bad at all. I just dont overly love loosing life to my own effects if I dont need to. Sometimes with spot removal you will find yourself chaining it twice in a row and I could see potential for that really hurting with devour. Victim of Night generally works on like 95% of everything you will see outside of a few oddities like Olivia Voldaren and Thraximundar being sort of the few that come to mind. You could always make the swap to it and see how you like it but most things that I am willing to use a spot removal on are not a problem for victim. There is also the option of going to some of the other three mana removals like Murder or possibly even Dismember if it really came down to it but I really like 1-2 mana spot removal. Dismember has been one I have been sort of back and forth on as well for a while because I would hate to have it in hand when someone drops a Consecrated Sphinx or a Sun Titan so its sort of kept me from running it.
Anyways, it seems legit enough to play with it and see how you like it. I haven't really overly had an issue with victim though.
Also, I keep getting closer and closer to sliding Bile Blight into my list for some testing. It might need to happen here sometime. I realize that its essentially just a stronger Echoing Decay but hitting for -3/-3 seems like it could be useful against a lot of utility creatures as well as tokens. I haven't quite committed to testing it but I suspect it will find its way in for some gametime at some point.
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I've got him almost built as well, and I'd like to offer a couple of ideas.
I see it on your consideration list, but Shriveling Rot seems like it could be a blowout. I know certain decks in my meta that card would crush, and it could pair nicely with another reanimation target, Pestilence Demon (and friends).
Another good reanimation target you could include is Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Being able to get back stuff like Exsanguinate or a powerful instant so it won't get exiled by Toshi seems boss, and Chainer + X-D is lolzapalooza '98.
With everything dying Grave Betrayal seems like a decent consideration, though it is expensive.
Both Tainted Strike and Tragic Slip seem worthy. Tainted Strike does piss people off though. Haha.
Bile Blight will go in for testing too. I play against a couple different decks with Elf and Gobbo tokens, and it still ends annoying generals like Kaalia, Edric, Captain Sisay, etc.
Shriveling Rot my biggest issue offhand is that its so situational. I dont have a lot of creatures and or tokens to try to do combat trades so it really comes down as an effect that works best when someone else is hitting a wrath due to someone's crazy board state or someone is ramming creatures into another player's creatures. In the end, it was too situational on other people doing things and seemed difficult to micromanage with another wrath on my own. I see potential for crazy things from it but it felt too much like it was one of theose sort of cards you sit on all game hoping the perfect opening aligns so you can nuke someone.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed if I recall correctly, I ran him for a while. The problem is that I run like 20 creatures and 30 spells or something arround about that. I already have great spot creature recovery and my commander already works with my instants so it leaves black sorceries and enchantments left for him to work with. That just made up too little of my deck that he nicely reanimates with. I have to play a numbers game with him and when I have like what... 5-10% of the deck as targets and only probably 3-5% of them being ones I would want to use him on he ended up being lackluster for me.
Grave Betrayal its a lot of mana for something that does nothing when it drops has always been my issue with this sort of card. My opponents wont let me keep something like it and its a lot of mana to drop it and try to achieve something else yet that same turn.
Tainted Strike its hard to cast it and flash it back at the same point in time and without doing it it seems like it would loose a lot of its surprise factor. Its possible if I ran Inkmoth Nexus and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon that it would be useful as an additional way to connect and kill opponents. It seems interesting but too often I feel like it wont be reliable and if it doesnt lead to killing someone then its sort of not worth doing.
Tragic Slip my only concern is that its sort of a follow up kill more than anything. I suppose the option of casting it to kill a token or something and then flashing it back could be an option but it worries me. Its probably playable but I might want to be running a little heavier on the spot kills to run it myself (I might end up going heavier anyways as I sometimes dont feel like I have enough spot removal in here).
EDIT: sry, super last second deckchange to try to get a change of pace in.
DECK CHANGE:
Nim Deathmantle -> Bile Blight the deathmantle has been shakey for a while now as I dont pack a lot of sac outlets. I have been sort of thinking about including more cheap removal as well so I can trigger toshiro and move spells a bit better (sometimes people just dont kill stuff).
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Someone else randomly hit a Death Cloud for 3 in the game I was playing in which oddly put me sort of in the lead since many opponents discarded the rest of their hands and I had been ramping off of a Sakura-Tribe Elder early on with a Coffin Queen until someone exiled that graveyard on me / then exiled the queen. I was sort of impressed by the Death Cloud though to be honest since it is sort of an X damage spell as well as sort of a wrath of sorts. It has me sort of considering adding it to this list since I could see myself using it even just as a small X to wrath + eat hands. I am going to sort of put it on the backburner for now and keep thinking about it.
In other news, I got my first kill with False Cure and it was hilarious. I havent seen the card a ton yet but we have a lot of pressure decks and so a lot of people have been resorting to utilizing some lifegain to counter it. This deck also has some siphoning effects that can be annoying of others gain life against so it seems interesting to me still as I want to keep testing it. It seems like a meta call card though so it really depends on what people in your group are running but I am still intrigued by it in here as it did like 25 damage or something in my case when someone went to Children of Korlis a Phyrexian Processor hit and I killed him in response. There are a lot of potentially very impactful ways to cast it though especially against like an Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless as it could easily kill the caster assuming you live yourself.
I have been sort of thinking about adding more hand hate to my list as of right now as occasionally I will clump up a few rez spells with nothing to target with them which is really annoying. I think I am going to make a little swap to try to push more on hand hate as I still have a feeling that Sheoldred is really super slow and draws too much hate for how dang slow she is.
DECK CHANGE:
Sheoldred, Whispering One -> Myojin of Night's Reach I have always enjoyed what Myojin does to my opponents since I play in sort of a control based meta. Too many people draw too many cards as a regular strategy. I get the feeling that Sheoldred is just too slow at getting her value which has always been sort of my fear with her. Myojin is a very fast turnaround style of value card as it really slows opponents way down making him a good means to lean into like a Chainer abuse loop or something of that sort or even just a means to set myself up with some rez targets.
Death Cloud is definitely on my radar now though as it was amusing in the game where someone else cast it to deal with an eldrazi. I can often abuse other player's land ramp too so I could see even just casting it for a few being profitable often. I used to run it in my GB Varolz deck and while I felt it was too silly there in a ramp abuse deck I feel like it would be an acceptable tool here. I might consider bringing it in for Exsanguinate possibly.
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I feel like I could pack it full of cheap instants that kill creatures and cantrip. Combine that with other typical storm enablers.
Right now I'm trying to decide between him and Maralen. Any thoughts on who might be better?
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
While Toshiro could be amusing, like I said before, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed just seems more reliable for that strategy if you are looking for a fall back in case someone hits you with a counter on your first attempt. Good players wont allow Maralen to stick for a turn rotation so I wouldn't bother with her.
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Xiahou does seem like a better choice. The thing is, I'm planning on building a mono deck deck for each color and I'm trying to decide what direction. It's either Chainer reanimation or ad Nauseum combo. I agree that BUx (probably Esper) is best for that but I don't want to change my Esper deck to that and I want to build my monos before building another multi color deck.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
That is just my own personal take on it though. I dont much enjoy combo but Ad Nauseam in particular is just so focused on going off that I think its harder to really execute in some way other than going off with Ad Nauseam. I would personally probably go with the other black option over doing a mono black Ad Nauseam build in part because I sort of get the feeling that if you are going to go that direction anyways, going into UBX is going to be the direction you want to be going anyways.
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Agreed. I'll probably just end up making an alternative build for my Oloro that is ad Naus. I already have a lot if the cards needed in there and could use it if I ever end up in a super competitive tourney. There is a really strong list for it over in the 1v1 forums (but uses MP ban list).
For my mono black deck I'll probably go with Chainer or some version of Toshiro spell slinger. As with all your decks I'll probably borrow a few ideas. False Cure kills are just hilarious. It could really punish the other guys at my LGS that run more dedicated life gain builds with Oloro.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I included False Cure in part because I was just seeing a little more of things like Kokusho / Exsanguinate / Debt to the Deathless than I felt was really necessary and I felt like it would be a fun little turn around to just gib someone off who got greedy. I haven't managed to use it a lot yet but it might make some people think twice about pushing all in. I think it is to some extent still sort of a meta call style of card but I see some power in it if the conditions are right. Still, there are a lot of situational cards out there so I cant necessarily say that it is a huge haymaker but I still want to run into the situation where I cast False Cure, spot remove a creature, and flash it back in the same turn as it would wreck like any lifegain at that point.
If you have any other questions pertaining to Toshiro and or my build I would be happy to answer them. There are a lot of options though for solid mono black commanders so give them a once through as each has their own merits.
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I see things like Filigree Angel (lol, dead), Loxodon Warhammer, True Conviction, and Elspeth Tirel on the reg.
The Cure is just what the doctor ordered.
I included Shriveling Rot but haven't seen it yet. In my meta there are a good amount of creatures trading in combat, and tokens as well. I'm stoked for Rot into Bile Blight on a crap-ton of 2/3 Plant tokens, or Rhyss Saprolings.
Tendrils of Agony, Kokusho, Exsanguinate. I do tend to run Toshiro as a suicide black deck, but with much less emphasis on comboing out as rapidly as possible. I usually just win through hatred or with an Exsanguinate.
Still, I just envision myself getting bad luck and hitting a few 6s in a row or something bad.
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Gonna proxy your list out and play a few games before I invest into. But looks like it might itch that monoblack edh bug i've had for awhile.
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I really want to just chime in and say that I really, really enjoyed this deck and idea, ISB. You inspired me to play mono-black with a fun general. :]
One card that has been testing really well in my Toshi list is Rise of the Dark Realms--this card won me at least two games because of how many creatures are dying. This, combined with Geth and Mesmeric Orb makes it so I gain the dominant board position late in the game. I've yet to run into the situation of someone countering my RotDR with an Insurrection or another Wrath, but my meta runs little of the former...your thoughts?
I think its an ok effect but when it is working well, the deck as a whole is probably doing good too since people are probably not properly hating on graveyards and this is the type of card where you want graves to just be crazy huge. Sepulchral Primordial could possibly function very similarly as well if you want to put some testing into it. I have seen it loop several times due to clones cloning the primordial and just chaining into everything from all graves. Since it is a creature as well, it puts more likelihood into being able to abuse it if you happen to mill it or it gets countered.
Overall, I think the card is ok but when the deck as a whole isnt working so great, it probably wont work so great either. It is hard for us to really abuse as well which makes it a little awkward.
DECK CHANGE:
Darksteel Plate -> Attrition honestly, I have been less in love with the plate of late. Its an ok card but I really dont have an issue recasting toshiro since he is so cheap to start. The plate was more from my prior builds where I didn't have a lot of creatures and so I needed to be able to chump block better. I want to see how Attrition plays for me since it offers me another sac outlet as well as a means to trigger flashback. I suspect, it will draw a lot of hatred but whatever. Sometimes I just have to roll out a change and see what happens.
EDIT: sorry about the last second change but I had a second card I wanted to swap out.
Praetor's Grasp -> Mimic Vat I have had some ok results with the grasp but overall its been sort of shakey a little more often than I care for. Generally speaking, I can get away with Oblivion Stone or Simulacrum fairly regularly but I dont think its something regular enough for me to feel it worthy of a slot. If I played against more mono black I would love to use it as an additional coffers but essentially nobody else is playing mono black in my meta. Mimic Vat I pulled out a while back but I have added more removal since then so I sort of want to get it more testing. I like how its a little harder to hate on it with graveyard removal.
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