My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
wasn't going to criticize your inclusion, i just meant that marshal has more value in a deck with chieftain. without chieftain, i'd probably choose pia&kiran over marshal/beetleback chief.
wasn't going to criticize your inclusion, i just meant that marshal has more value in a deck with chieftain. without chieftain, i'd probably choose pia&kiran over marshal/beetleback chief.
No problem here hehe, I didn't take it as a critic either. English isn't my native language so yeah, sometimes I may sound more harsh that I meant to ;p
I mostly agree with you, without a strong goblin subtheme, Pia/Kiran is an upgrade to Goblin Marshal.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It's double trouble when we have a Norin enabler, since we can copy Norin to get a second ETB or LTB trigger depending on the enabler. But this is a win-more situation. So let's analyze the other situations... with Moggcatcher or Myr Battlesphere: it acts as a pseudo-haste enabler, but that's about it.
Not good enough IMO, but could be playable depending on what exact Norin list you play.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
36 damage for 2 mana (12+12 for the ETB, then a 12/12 haste token after you sac the original Dreadnough to the token)
Looks fun, but as I said earlier... you need to have another enabler (Pandemonium), thus making this card a win-more. As for haste options, there are better cards like Anger or Flamekin Village.
I don't think I can agree with all that. Yes, the conjuring-pandemonium-dreadnought thing looks cute, but it'll never work for me - I play neither pandemonium (backfires too much imo) nor dreadnaught. But this is not very relevant I guess since the chances of that happening are quite small anyway.
You listed 7 non-creature on 19 when trying to justify Flameshadow Conjuring. You realize that if any of those 7 enchantments stick on the battlefield, WE WIN anyway. We don't need Flameshadow Conjuring or Furnace of Rath to win with Norin + Purphoros in 4-player game. It will kill everybody fast enough already.
So now that we definitely agree that we are down to 12 cards (12% of the deck, not 20%), I will do a card-by-card analysis. Mogg War Marshal: well, without another enabler like Purphoros, this card doesn't do much already except for Skullclamp and Warp World, and I don't think the difference of having Flameshadow Conjuring is worth a card here instead of a better enchantment that does something real. The purpose of Mogg War Marshal is to give us early action, early blockers, and it works great with most enchantments in the deck. Getting 5 creatures instead of 3 doesn't really matter, early game we can't have Flameshadow, and later in the game, we play better creatures. WIN MORE. Stingscourger: yeah right, it can be useful to double-bounce. Goblin Matron: Kiki-Jiki is still the first target for Matron, and if my opponents can't remove Kiki-Jiki, I get to tutor 1 creature every turn and quickly win the game. Doesn't make a huge diff here. WIN MORE. Imperial Recruiter: first target is almost always Moggcatcher, sometimes it's Kiki and finally Grinning Ignus. The copy isn't really useful here, but it will be useful once I cast Moggcatcher to give it haste. Flamekin Village and Anger are both better as you already stated and the land doesn't waste a precious spot in the decklist. Goblin Settler: in a 4-player environment, you want to destroy Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle and Emeria. If you are unlucky enough that you have multiple of these to destroy... well, find Kiki-Jiki. TOO NARROW. Solemn Simulacrum: it's nice, but it doesn't do much. WIN MORE. Tuktuk Scrapper: with Vandalblast and Shattering Spree, Tuktuk Scrapper is just here in case we have a creature tutor and absolutely need to destroy 1 artifact. I would definitely use the copy to destroy a Sol Ring, but in a 4-player game, that's not really the point. TOO NARROW. Goblin Assassin: this is useful with the little Assassin so I'm not gonna lie, getting 3 triggers instead of 1 for R can make all the difference against non-Sigarda decks. Siege-Gang Commander: I could repeat all the same arguments over and over again... WIN MORE. Duplicant: There are definitely some uses to have 2 Duplicants, although it goes in the TOO NARROW category, because this deck doesn't have a lot of problems to deal with creatures in general anyway. Duplicant is cute with Welder and it's the reason why I play it. Goblin Marshal: WIN MORE Myr Battlesphere: I'm sure you see this coming... WIN MORE! If we have Purphoros, it's already 10 damage. Add Ogre Battledriver and it's usually lethal (for 1 player).
That's about it.
I know I'm really severe when it comes to say that a card is too narrow or a win more, but I've been playing this deck for years now and the list is really tight, removing a card always has a huge impact because I do use every card in this list (I know the list by heart at this point). I would compare Flameshadow Conjuring to Strionic Resonator, since it does exactly the same thing most of the times (double a ETB trigger). The problem is when it does nothing with the other 80% of the deck. Warstorm Surge isn't played in Purphoros decks. The only reason it's played here in Norin is because we have turn 1 Norin every game, and he has a better-than-shroud ability which makes him reliably staying on the battlefield the whole game (not exactly on the battlefield actually ;-)). So Warstorm Surge doesn't need to be good with 80% of the deck, it's good with Norin, and Norin is always there. It's still pretty good with Ogre Battledriver or Myr Battlesphere, the whole deck synergizes together... but cards like Furnace of Rath, Flameshadow Conjuring, Minion Reflector or Strionic Resonator never do enough. Note that Purphoros does play Furnace of Rath instead of Pandemonium effects... but that's the whole point: with Purphoros in the Command Zone, he does a ton of damage. With Norin in the Command Zone, you get a ton of Norin ETB. You need cards that will do something when Norin ETB. Furnace of Rath isn't. Strionic Resonator isn't. Genesis Chamber is. I will always prefer cards that do something rather than cards that do nothing. Flameshadow Conjuring does nothing, and that's the problem here.
Always imagine do you are late game, have nothing but lands and Norin (we always have Norin), and are in top-decking mode. Warstorm Surge will often save your ass. Flameshadow Conjuring does nothing. I know that Mogg War Marshal can be a bad draw late game. But at least, it blocks. If we get Skullclamp next, it's good. If we already had Goblin Assasin, it's excellent. It works with more than 20% of the deck, it works as a part of the strategy.
Edit: please add Conjurer's Closet to the comparison, since I always considered that card a win-more card, and many agreed. I think Flameshadow Conjuring is better than Conjurer's Closet, so there's at least that... better wording, better card as a whole, but same effect overall.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
You'll never hear me say you should change your list and run Flameshadow Conjuring. If you interpreted it that way: it's not what I meant, I just used a representative list (Gaka's would be more logical, but it hasn't been updated for a long time) to make some examples - and the only thing I wanted to say with that is that it deserves testing. I still do think so, by the way ;).
I guess our lists, but probably mainly our meta, differs too much to really compare. At least I know that in my own meta, of the seven enchantments you name (which I guess are Genesis Chamber, Impact Tremors, Outpost Siege, Pandemonium, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge), only CitR has been good enough to win me the game with only Norin on the field. All the others give me a fantastic evening, but also draw so much attention that I have a serious problem not to long after I've played it.
So now that we definitely agree that we are down to 12 cards (12% of the deck, not 20%), I will do a card-by-card analysis.
We do not definitely agree on this. Although I won't argue with most of what you stated above, and you might very well be right that it will prove to be a win-more card, I'm convinced that Purphoros, God of the Forge, or Warstorm Surge for that matter, is a better card with Flameshadow Conjuring on the battlefield. I do believe it has the potential to win me "more games", not "games more".
Anyhow, thanks for all the explanation. I've been playing my own list for about 2,5 years now and your plea helps me a great deal. I'll probably never go the gobbo way like you do and I'll never get my hands on a Gauntlet of Might or Imperial Recruiter, but every little bit of information helps me improve my own list just a little bit more :).
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Came to post my new altered cards for my other decks and did a quick Google search for altered Norins, and a lot of people are actually posting the image of my altered Norin on other forums (actually saw someone using it as his G+ profile picture, lol). They naturally don't link to this thread (which doesn't get that much attention compared to Gaka's), but still, I'm pretty proud of getting that altered Norin.
You'll never hear me say you should change your list and run Flameshadow Conjuring. If you interpreted it that way: it's not what I meant, I just used a representative list (Gaka's would be more logical, but it hasn't been updated for a long time) to make some examples - and the only thing I wanted to say with that is that it deserves testing. I still do think so, by the way ;).
I guess our lists, but probably mainly our meta, differs too much to really compare. At least I know that in my own meta, of the seven enchantments you name (which I guess are Genesis Chamber, Impact Tremors, Outpost Siege, Pandemonium, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge), only CitR has been good enough to win me the game with only Norin on the field. All the others give me a fantastic evening, but also draw so much attention that I have a serious problem not to long after I've played it.
So now that we definitely agree that we are down to 12 cards (12% of the deck, not 20%), I will do a card-by-card analysis.
We do not definitely agree on this. Although I won't argue with most of what you stated above, and you might very well be right that it will prove to be a win-more card, I'm convinced that Purphoros, God of the Forge, or Warstorm Surge for that matter, is a better card with Flameshadow Conjuring on the battlefield. I do believe it has the potential to win me "more games", not "games more".
Anyhow, thanks for all the explanation. I've been playing my own list for about 2,5 years now and your plea helps me a great deal. I'll probably never go the gobbo way like you do and I'll never get my hands on a Gauntlet of Might or Imperial Recruiter, but every little bit of information helps me improve my own list just a little bit more :).
I didn't see your reply for some reason.
I play a list completely different from Gaka's. I have to thank him for the inspiration, since this is my first "real" EDH deck I ever built and it's really what got me starting building my own decks. But looking at his list, there are A LOT of cards that I find plain bad. If Purphoros isn't good enough to win in your meta, I wonder how Conjurer's Closet works. People have been playing this card in Norin for decades. I played it almost a full year. And you can't believe how happy I am to not ever run this card ever again. It's like the "win more" card by excellence: hey, it's a good Siege-Gang Commander you have here, let's blink it once a turn because my opponents either don't care or don't have any spot removal preventing me from just winning anyway with Moggcatcher.
But that's my own vision of the format, I've been playing a lot, although I'm playing a lot less since I moved to Quebec City (still having troubles to find a decent playgroup). I will do anything and everything for flavor, synergies, and to avoid bad cards in any situation. When I build a deck, I always think of it like this: what's the main theme, what's the subtheme? Then, do I have something to deal with every permanent type in Magic (Gods are considered too, since we have 15 Gods and they see a lot of play)? Are my ways to deal with a specific problems tutorable or recurrable? Then, going card by card and thinking of each cards in the deck, is there a card I mostly don't want to draw?
It's a complicated process. I have the application on my iPhone (Decked) and I'm looking at my decklists while sitting on my #2. That helps. I can find a lot of situations where Mogg War Marshal will do something. It's just because the whole deck is based around getting creatures on the battlefield. Half of the creatures on my side of the field are usually tokens. Which do remove half of the purpose of cards like Conjurer's Closet and Flameshadow Conjuring.
I never said these cards were utterly bad. Well, maybe I did. What I mean is that these cards don't fullfil any specific purpose in the deck. It's good if I have Myr Battlesphere, but if my opponent doesn't have Day of Judgment, Battlesphere is going to all the job by itself, because I also have Welder, Darreti, Kiki-Jiki, Warp World and so on... they all work great with it already. Conjurer's Closet will never replace Kiki-Jiki, which is one of the best red creature we ever got printed with Welder. That's my opinion and I stand by it.
Also, please excuse me if at any time I'm rude or anything. I'm a French Canadian and the language barrier is still here although it doesn't always look like so. Doing my best ;p
Also: all my decks work in both banlists and are certified comboless (speaking of infinite combos here, not strong synergies like tapping 10 mana to re-play 10 times Grinning Ignus when I already have Purphoros, this is not infinite and stupid, and both cards are really good in this deck ;-)).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The more I think about it, the more I don't think I will play it. I'll stick with the goblin theme as much as possible, even if Norin is a non-goblin general. Goblins are plan B, and I always like to have a plan B.
as long as you run goblin chieftain, that makes all the more sense i suppose.
Well... as they say... only fools don't change their minds.
As tribal support, I currently run 14 goblins with Moggcatcher. I can break them into 5 categories: powerful goblins (Welder, Kiki-Jiki), toolbox cards (Sharpshooter, Stinscourger, Scrapper, Settler, Assassin), token generators (Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander, Krenko), tutors (Matron, Moggcatcher) and tribal goodstuff (Chieftain, then Assassin and Krenko are also considered in this category). The only one I didn't mention is Squee, he is probably in his own category all by himself.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: this is by far better than Beetleback Chief. Strictly better if we don't take into account the goblin tribe. But I never played that one, because I always played Goblin Marshal instead, because it's 5 goblins instead of 3, which is more than Siege-Gang Commander, and I sometimes need it with Moggcatcher to win if Siege-Gang Commander is already gone for an alpha strike with Chieftain and Krenko (both Marshal and Siege-Gang represents 4 attackers at the end, since Marshal has to be sacrificed). Now, if I don't have Goblin Marshal, what's next best? Mogg War Marshal. It represents 3 cards in the lovely 1R cost, but only 2 attackers. Will it make a huge difference if I remove either the big or the small Marshal to add Pia and Kiran? No, not really. This is like plan C... after Siege-Gang is gone... and this is just when winning with Moggcatcher, because let's face it, 6 mana for Goblin Marshal is a lot, it's not a card I want to see in my opening hand. Mogg War Marshal is totally fine because it's 2 mana, it can block a couple of times or give me extra cards with Skullclamp really early game when I dig for more lands.
With all these considerations... I will give a try to Mr. and Ms. Nalaar and remove Goblin Marshal. Flying tokens are better. Artifact tokens are better. Add to this the ability of Siege-Gang Commander, even at 2R, and this is just too good to pass. It can sac Wurmcoil, or even Duplicant for recursion with Welder (well, anything with Welder is gonna be extra value). I can sac Myr tokens, and I can sac my opponents' artifacts that I stole with Confusion in the Ranks. It's repeatable and doesn't need haste. It's just really great. I was skeptical when they spoiled it, like I was with Daretti a couple of months ago, but after a couple of good nights of sleep and the excitation building up with the imminent release of Origins... here we go.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Took a look at your decklist and realized that Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm are missing. From what i remember, you loved those cards. Might have missed the post, what was our reasoning for eventually removing them?
Anyways i'm here to share a game i had a few days ago. I was playing a 1v1 against my friend using my Borborygmous deck. Basically i was having my ass handed to me because i was stupid enough to play Gauntlet of Might + Sculpting Steel that game (who could resist). I'm down to 4 life. My opponent has about 20 life. He has 27 permanents on the battlefield, I have about 14.
I topdeck a Warp World, proceed to play some cards to even the playing field, putting my opponent at 24 Permanents to my 19. I play Warp World.
At this point i tell my friend that i think i've won. He seems skeptical and he says play it through. I look over to his side of the board and i spot what seems to be like 10+ lands, and a...Furnace of Rath. We resolve the Warp World.
Marshal triggers for 2 tokens. Each are 2/2. They deal a total of 8 damage.
I sac Marshall to Goblin Bombardment. 2 Damage
2 Tokens etb. 8 damage.
I sac the 4 tokens. 8 damage.
I tap 5 lands for 10 mana, Bounce and play Ignus 10 times for 6 damage each -> 60 Damage.
Then sac him for 2 damage.
Total Damage: 88 Damage
Okie so what's the morale of the story? I think we need to pay more attention to "etb trigger" density. My take on Norin probably has the highest density among the other lists on the site, and even then I only hit a measly 2 "etb trigger" creatures out of 19 permanents. Cards like Beetleback Chief or Goblin Marshal may not be cards we actively search for when we play Norin. They do still contribute to the consistency and strength of the deck in my opinion. Beetleback is still pretty weak considering and can stay removed (i'll keep mine in till a suitable replacement arrives), but Marshal represents 5 bodies in one card, which is a pretty difficult deal to find in mono red.
Lastly, i'd like to get your opinion on Chaos Warp and Commune with Lava. How have your experiences been with these cards (post tuck rule for chaos). I'm considering the removal of chaos warp either for another permanent (to reduce non-permanents) or for commune with lava. I still feel as though the deck has enough card draw, but other lists seem to be running more than i do, and commune to lava does seem somewhat appetizing.
Took a look at your decklist and realized that Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm are missing. From what i remember, you loved those cards. Might have missed the post, what was our reasoning for eventually removing them?
Here's what I said originially (post 104): I enjoyed the randomness and chaos it created and it was also somewhat helping me digging for better cards. Now that WotC printed a couple of really good top-tier cards for mono-red, I don't think we need any filler anymore, every card is good and powerful on its own. What I said isn't really exact. I should say that Possibility Storm was usually helping my opponents more than me. Knowledge Pool is a really weird card. It's a fun card. I encourage everyone to play both cards if they like chaos, and I could add them back in the list one day, now that I'm playing with a different playgroup. It's just that we don't get to tutor these in Norin, so I prefered at the time to focus more on the other enchantments, all doing a similar thing for Norin and his friends. In short, P-Storm and K-Pool didn't make me win any game by themselves, if not only for the fact that some opponents don't know their own deck and are doing nearly anything in the hope to destroy that kind of effect.
Anyways i'm here to share a game i had a few days ago. I was playing a 1v1 against my friend using my Borborygmous deck. Basically i was having my ass handed to me because i was stupid enough to play Gauntlet of Might + Sculpting Steel that game (who could resist). I'm down to 4 life. My opponent has about 20 life. He has 27 permanents on the battlefield, I have about 14.
I topdeck a Warp World, proceed to play some cards to even the playing field, putting my opponent at 24 Permanents to my 19. I play Warp World.
At this point i tell my friend that i think i've won. He seems skeptical and he says play it through. I look over to his side of the board and i spot what seems to be like 10+ lands, and a...Furnace of Rath. We resolve the Warp World.
Marshal triggers for 2 tokens. Each are 2/2. They deal a total of 8 damage.
I sac Marshall to Goblin Bombardment. 2 Damage
2 Tokens etb. 8 damage.
I sac the 4 tokens. 8 damage.
I tap 5 lands for 10 mana, Bounce and play Ignus 10 times for 6 damage each -> 60 Damage.
Then sac him for 2 damage.
Total Damage: 88 Damage
It really shows how good Warp World can be used in a defensive situation. Thanks for sharing, I'm happy to see that I'm not the only thinking it's one of best card of the deck. Furnace of Rath is crazy though, Norin doesn't need that double-edged sword, even though it won you that game, that was in your opponent's deck and it made him lose. The only general I'd ever consider this with is probably Purphoros.
Okie so what's the morale of the story? I think we need to pay more attention to "etb trigger" density. My take on Norin probably has the highest density among the other lists on the site, and even then I only hit a measly 2 "etb trigger" creatures out of 19 permanents. Cards like Beetleback Chief or Goblin Marshal may not be cards we actively search for when we play Norin. They do still contribute to the consistency and strength of the deck in my opinion. Beetleback is still pretty weak considering and can stay removed (i'll keep mine in till a suitable replacement arrives), but Marshal represents 5 bodies in one card, which is a pretty difficult deal to find in mono red.
5 bodies but not at the same time. Only 4 simultaneously, which is the same as Siege-Gang Commander and less than Battlesphere. My point here is I don't recall ever hardcasting Goblin Marshal. 6 mana is a lot, I prefer casting Wurmcoil any day over this, it's more damage (and lifegain) with Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge, so the tokens really only matters with Warp World, Purphoros and Impact Tremors. It's just that I listed every token producing effects and I feel like I already have a lot and it's already working the way it should. I don't know at what point I have to keep the ETB token generating density that high. And I'm just swapping a creature that produces tokens for another one that does the same thing, with 3 creatures on the battlefield simultaneously instead of 5-1 but a lot of added value. It's a hard decision, but I think Goblin Marshal had to go. If you look closely at my mana curve, I've now got only 4 spells at 6 mana (Chandra, Duplicant, Surge and Wurmcoil), and 2 at 7 mana (Battlesphere and Warp World).
Lastly, i'd like to get your opinion on Chaos Warp and Commune with Lava. How have your experiences been with these cards (post tuck rule for chaos). I'm considering the removal of chaos warp either for another permanent (to reduce non-permanents) or for commune with lava. I still feel as though the deck has enough card draw, but other lists seem to be running more than i do, and commune to lava does seem somewhat appetizing.
I totally feel you on Chaos Warp, I noticed that I use it on my own permanents more than ever and it's probably a sign. It's still one of the really rare card to deal with enchantments though, don't you think? I'm really hesitant when considering to remove it. But it's definitely less good with no tuck. What do you do against enchantments, more specifically? We've got Confusion, Warp World, and I also play O-Stone and P-Vault. It's probably not that bad with 4 cards, O-Stone being recurrable too. I really don't know. That spot could be used to add back P-Storm in the deck or just one more Mountain. Or Marshal. I don't know. What do you think?
Commune with Lava: I still appreciate the card every time I draw it, I usually cast it on my main phase for all my mana minus 3 (X must be at least 4, and usually you want 6 or 7, but it depends on the situation). This way, I can usually play all the cards if needed, using 2 land drops, a 4-drop on the turn I played it (18 4-drops in the deck, and only 16 cards over 4-cmc), and whatever else the turn after. I usually do this when it's the last card in my hand. YMMV, obviously, but it's sometimes better than Wheel of Fortune, not giving any cards to your opponents.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I run 6 double damage effects in my borborygmos deck. It's a really fun mechanic that interacts well functionally with the land toss ability while emphasising the stompy nature of the red and green color pie. Once, my friend managed to get 5 double damage effects onto the battlefield in 1 game and each land he threw was worth 96 points of damage. Those are the kind of games everyone at the table remembers. That said I'm in no way advocating such effects for norin. That game the warp world would have won me the game even if furnace wasn't on the board.
For creature density, I somehow still feel like I could use more token producers even though I already have a ton. Warp world might be saying otherwise considering that I've only failed to win on the spot with it once in over 2+ years of playing the card and that was because I was testing 5 he limits by warp worlding with 6 permanent. I guess I have to re-evaluate whether I have enough density in my deck.
For chaos warp, I ended up asking you because recently I've run into situations where it's best use was to target my own stuff. Even though I want to remove it, I'm also unsure if I should remove it. The only situation in which some other form of removal would be worse could be against gods, but most of these gods we go up against are also commanders. Hence my conundrum.
For chaos warp, I ended up asking you because recently I've run into situations where it's best use was to target my own stuff. Even though I want to remove it, I'm also unsure if I should remove it. The only situation in which some other form of removal would be worse could be against gods, but most of these gods we go up against are also commanders. Hence my conundrum.
Yeah, Gods are a problem. We don't care at all about some (Erebos for example, I'd be happy to see you pay life with him), but some others are really explosive (let's say Kruphix, give him 2-3 turns and he will Genesis Wave his whole library). Chaos Warp can deal with 'em when not used as a general. Also, targetting one of my own token isn't that bad, is it? I mean... it's the worse case scenario... we usually get a permanent out of this, if we got Valakut, it can be Lightning Bolt, if we got any enchantment, it can be even better. Sometimes we just miss and it's bad. But still.
You really made me think about P-Storm and K-Pool again though. I kind of missed the chaos effect, even though I would often lose to these cards, that was fun. But it's not great in the deck. So I guess I'm better staying away from these cards.
Side note on Volcanic Offering since I didn't talk much about that card since I added it. It did a great job so far, with the political aspect, I usually get 4 different targets with that thing because there is always a player starting to do some degenerate things and we all want to slow him down. It works. When I added it, I said that even destroying a land AND a creature for 5 mana at instant speed was okay. But everytime I have more than 1 opponent, I managed to destroy at least 3 permanents and usually 4 if my opponents control 2+ creatures each. It's as good as spot removal will ever get in this format, and it's fun.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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As long as I will run Moggcatcher, Krenko and Siege-Gang, Chieftain will keep its spot in the decklist.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
No problem here hehe, I didn't take it as a critic either. English isn't my native language so yeah, sometimes I may sound more harsh that I meant to ;p
I mostly agree with you, without a strong goblin subtheme, Pia/Kiran is an upgrade to Goblin Marshal.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
A better but non-artifact Minion Reflector.
It's double trouble when we have a Norin enabler, since we can copy Norin to get a second ETB or LTB trigger depending on the enabler. But this is a win-more situation. So let's analyze the other situations... with Moggcatcher or Myr Battlesphere: it acts as a pseudo-haste enabler, but that's about it.
Not good enough IMO, but could be playable depending on what exact Norin list you play.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
You listed 7 non-creature on 19 when trying to justify Flameshadow Conjuring. You realize that if any of those 7 enchantments stick on the battlefield, WE WIN anyway. We don't need Flameshadow Conjuring or Furnace of Rath to win with Norin + Purphoros in 4-player game. It will kill everybody fast enough already.
So now that we definitely agree that we are down to 12 cards (12% of the deck, not 20%), I will do a card-by-card analysis.
Mogg War Marshal: well, without another enabler like Purphoros, this card doesn't do much already except for Skullclamp and Warp World, and I don't think the difference of having Flameshadow Conjuring is worth a card here instead of a better enchantment that does something real. The purpose of Mogg War Marshal is to give us early action, early blockers, and it works great with most enchantments in the deck. Getting 5 creatures instead of 3 doesn't really matter, early game we can't have Flameshadow, and later in the game, we play better creatures. WIN MORE.
Stingscourger: yeah right, it can be useful to double-bounce.
Goblin Matron: Kiki-Jiki is still the first target for Matron, and if my opponents can't remove Kiki-Jiki, I get to tutor 1 creature every turn and quickly win the game. Doesn't make a huge diff here. WIN MORE.
Imperial Recruiter: first target is almost always Moggcatcher, sometimes it's Kiki and finally Grinning Ignus. The copy isn't really useful here, but it will be useful once I cast Moggcatcher to give it haste. Flamekin Village and Anger are both better as you already stated and the land doesn't waste a precious spot in the decklist.
Goblin Settler: in a 4-player environment, you want to destroy Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle and Emeria. If you are unlucky enough that you have multiple of these to destroy... well, find Kiki-Jiki. TOO NARROW.
Solemn Simulacrum: it's nice, but it doesn't do much. WIN MORE.
Tuktuk Scrapper: with Vandalblast and Shattering Spree, Tuktuk Scrapper is just here in case we have a creature tutor and absolutely need to destroy 1 artifact. I would definitely use the copy to destroy a Sol Ring, but in a 4-player game, that's not really the point. TOO NARROW.
Goblin Assassin: this is useful with the little Assassin so I'm not gonna lie, getting 3 triggers instead of 1 for R can make all the difference against non-Sigarda decks.
Siege-Gang Commander: I could repeat all the same arguments over and over again... WIN MORE.
Duplicant: There are definitely some uses to have 2 Duplicants, although it goes in the TOO NARROW category, because this deck doesn't have a lot of problems to deal with creatures in general anyway. Duplicant is cute with Welder and it's the reason why I play it.
Goblin Marshal: WIN MORE
Myr Battlesphere: I'm sure you see this coming... WIN MORE! If we have Purphoros, it's already 10 damage. Add Ogre Battledriver and it's usually lethal (for 1 player).
That's about it.
I know I'm really severe when it comes to say that a card is too narrow or a win more, but I've been playing this deck for years now and the list is really tight, removing a card always has a huge impact because I do use every card in this list (I know the list by heart at this point). I would compare Flameshadow Conjuring to Strionic Resonator, since it does exactly the same thing most of the times (double a ETB trigger). The problem is when it does nothing with the other 80% of the deck. Warstorm Surge isn't played in Purphoros decks. The only reason it's played here in Norin is because we have turn 1 Norin every game, and he has a better-than-shroud ability which makes him reliably staying on the battlefield the whole game (not exactly on the battlefield actually ;-)). So Warstorm Surge doesn't need to be good with 80% of the deck, it's good with Norin, and Norin is always there. It's still pretty good with Ogre Battledriver or Myr Battlesphere, the whole deck synergizes together... but cards like Furnace of Rath, Flameshadow Conjuring, Minion Reflector or Strionic Resonator never do enough. Note that Purphoros does play Furnace of Rath instead of Pandemonium effects... but that's the whole point: with Purphoros in the Command Zone, he does a ton of damage. With Norin in the Command Zone, you get a ton of Norin ETB. You need cards that will do something when Norin ETB. Furnace of Rath isn't. Strionic Resonator isn't. Genesis Chamber is. I will always prefer cards that do something rather than cards that do nothing. Flameshadow Conjuring does nothing, and that's the problem here.
Always imagine do you are late game, have nothing but lands and Norin (we always have Norin), and are in top-decking mode. Warstorm Surge will often save your ass. Flameshadow Conjuring does nothing. I know that Mogg War Marshal can be a bad draw late game. But at least, it blocks. If we get Skullclamp next, it's good. If we already had Goblin Assasin, it's excellent. It works with more than 20% of the deck, it works as a part of the strategy.
Edit: please add Conjurer's Closet to the comparison, since I always considered that card a win-more card, and many agreed. I think Flameshadow Conjuring is better than Conjurer's Closet, so there's at least that... better wording, better card as a whole, but same effect overall.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
You'll never hear me say you should change your list and run Flameshadow Conjuring. If you interpreted it that way: it's not what I meant, I just used a representative list (Gaka's would be more logical, but it hasn't been updated for a long time) to make some examples - and the only thing I wanted to say with that is that it deserves testing. I still do think so, by the way ;).
I guess our lists, but probably mainly our meta, differs too much to really compare. At least I know that in my own meta, of the seven enchantments you name (which I guess are Genesis Chamber, Impact Tremors, Outpost Siege, Pandemonium, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge), only CitR has been good enough to win me the game with only Norin on the field. All the others give me a fantastic evening, but also draw so much attention that I have a serious problem not to long after I've played it.
We do not definitely agree on this. Although I won't argue with most of what you stated above, and you might very well be right that it will prove to be a win-more card, I'm convinced that Purphoros, God of the Forge, or Warstorm Surge for that matter, is a better card with Flameshadow Conjuring on the battlefield. I do believe it has the potential to win me "more games", not "games more".
Anyhow, thanks for all the explanation. I've been playing my own list for about 2,5 years now and your plea helps me a great deal. I'll probably never go the gobbo way like you do and I'll never get my hands on a Gauntlet of Might or Imperial Recruiter, but every little bit of information helps me improve my own list just a little bit more :).
I didn't see your reply for some reason.
I play a list completely different from Gaka's. I have to thank him for the inspiration, since this is my first "real" EDH deck I ever built and it's really what got me starting building my own decks. But looking at his list, there are A LOT of cards that I find plain bad. If Purphoros isn't good enough to win in your meta, I wonder how Conjurer's Closet works. People have been playing this card in Norin for decades. I played it almost a full year. And you can't believe how happy I am to not ever run this card ever again. It's like the "win more" card by excellence: hey, it's a good Siege-Gang Commander you have here, let's blink it once a turn because my opponents either don't care or don't have any spot removal preventing me from just winning anyway with Moggcatcher.
But that's my own vision of the format, I've been playing a lot, although I'm playing a lot less since I moved to Quebec City (still having troubles to find a decent playgroup). I will do anything and everything for flavor, synergies, and to avoid bad cards in any situation. When I build a deck, I always think of it like this: what's the main theme, what's the subtheme? Then, do I have something to deal with every permanent type in Magic (Gods are considered too, since we have 15 Gods and they see a lot of play)? Are my ways to deal with a specific problems tutorable or recurrable? Then, going card by card and thinking of each cards in the deck, is there a card I mostly don't want to draw?
It's a complicated process. I have the application on my iPhone (Decked) and I'm looking at my decklists while sitting on my #2. That helps. I can find a lot of situations where Mogg War Marshal will do something. It's just because the whole deck is based around getting creatures on the battlefield. Half of the creatures on my side of the field are usually tokens. Which do remove half of the purpose of cards like Conjurer's Closet and Flameshadow Conjuring.
I never said these cards were utterly bad. Well, maybe I did. What I mean is that these cards don't fullfil any specific purpose in the deck. It's good if I have Myr Battlesphere, but if my opponent doesn't have Day of Judgment, Battlesphere is going to all the job by itself, because I also have Welder, Darreti, Kiki-Jiki, Warp World and so on... they all work great with it already. Conjurer's Closet will never replace Kiki-Jiki, which is one of the best red creature we ever got printed with Welder. That's my opinion and I stand by it.
Also, please excuse me if at any time I'm rude or anything. I'm a French Canadian and the language barrier is still here although it doesn't always look like so. Doing my best ;p
Also: all my decks work in both banlists and are certified comboless (speaking of infinite combos here, not strong synergies like tapping 10 mana to re-play 10 times Grinning Ignus when I already have Purphoros, this is not infinite and stupid, and both cards are really good in this deck ;-)).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
As tribal support, I currently run 14 goblins with Moggcatcher. I can break them into 5 categories: powerful goblins (Welder, Kiki-Jiki), toolbox cards (Sharpshooter, Stinscourger, Scrapper, Settler, Assassin), token generators (Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander, Krenko), tutors (Matron, Moggcatcher) and tribal goodstuff (Chieftain, then Assassin and Krenko are also considered in this category). The only one I didn't mention is Squee, he is probably in his own category all by himself.
Looking at token generators, I've got 4 goblins. To this list, I add Genesis Chamber, Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine, Trading Post, Kher Keep and Springjack Pasture. Mogg Infestation also considered. I always said Norin was played really differently than Purphoros as a general, because Purphoros will focus more sorceries to generate their tokens (Firecat Blitz effects: faster, more efficient, but also doesn't do much without Purphoros).
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: this is by far better than Beetleback Chief. Strictly better if we don't take into account the goblin tribe. But I never played that one, because I always played Goblin Marshal instead, because it's 5 goblins instead of 3, which is more than Siege-Gang Commander, and I sometimes need it with Moggcatcher to win if Siege-Gang Commander is already gone for an alpha strike with Chieftain and Krenko (both Marshal and Siege-Gang represents 4 attackers at the end, since Marshal has to be sacrificed). Now, if I don't have Goblin Marshal, what's next best? Mogg War Marshal. It represents 3 cards in the lovely 1R cost, but only 2 attackers. Will it make a huge difference if I remove either the big or the small Marshal to add Pia and Kiran? No, not really. This is like plan C... after Siege-Gang is gone... and this is just when winning with Moggcatcher, because let's face it, 6 mana for Goblin Marshal is a lot, it's not a card I want to see in my opening hand. Mogg War Marshal is totally fine because it's 2 mana, it can block a couple of times or give me extra cards with Skullclamp really early game when I dig for more lands.
With all these considerations... I will give a try to Mr. and Ms. Nalaar and remove Goblin Marshal. Flying tokens are better. Artifact tokens are better. Add to this the ability of Siege-Gang Commander, even at 2R, and this is just too good to pass. It can sac Wurmcoil, or even Duplicant for recursion with Welder (well, anything with Welder is gonna be extra value). I can sac Myr tokens, and I can sac my opponents' artifacts that I stole with Confusion in the Ranks. It's repeatable and doesn't need haste. It's just really great. I was skeptical when they spoiled it, like I was with Daretti a couple of months ago, but after a couple of good nights of sleep and the excitation building up with the imminent release of Origins... here we go.
tl;dr:
- Goblin Marshal
- Shivan Gorge
+ Pia and Kiran Nalaar
+ Mountain
13 goblins instead of 14, but Moggcatcher is still awesome and Goblin Chieftain is still worth it.
On Shivan Gorge: the effect is just not worth it.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Anyways i'm here to share a game i had a few days ago. I was playing a 1v1 against my friend using my Borborygmous deck. Basically i was having my ass handed to me because i was stupid enough to play Gauntlet of Might + Sculpting Steel that game (who could resist). I'm down to 4 life. My opponent has about 20 life. He has 27 permanents on the battlefield, I have about 14.
I topdeck a Warp World, proceed to play some cards to even the playing field, putting my opponent at 24 Permanents to my 19. I play Warp World.
I can't remember every card off the top of my head but i know the important ones.
Warp World:
5 Mountains
Caged Sun
Warstorm Surge
Goblin Bombardment
Grinning Ignus
Goblin Marshal
At this point i tell my friend that i think i've won. He seems skeptical and he says play it through. I look over to his side of the board and i spot what seems to be like 10+ lands, and a...Furnace of Rath. We resolve the Warp World.
Marshal triggers for 2 tokens. Each are 2/2. They deal a total of 8 damage.
I sac Marshall to Goblin Bombardment. 2 Damage
2 Tokens etb. 8 damage.
I sac the 4 tokens. 8 damage.
I tap 5 lands for 10 mana, Bounce and play Ignus 10 times for 6 damage each -> 60 Damage.
Then sac him for 2 damage.
Total Damage: 88 Damage
Okie so what's the morale of the story? I think we need to pay more attention to "etb trigger" density. My take on Norin probably has the highest density among the other lists on the site, and even then I only hit a measly 2 "etb trigger" creatures out of 19 permanents. Cards like Beetleback Chief or Goblin Marshal may not be cards we actively search for when we play Norin. They do still contribute to the consistency and strength of the deck in my opinion. Beetleback is still pretty weak considering and can stay removed (i'll keep mine in till a suitable replacement arrives), but Marshal represents 5 bodies in one card, which is a pretty difficult deal to find in mono red.
Lastly, i'd like to get your opinion on Chaos Warp and Commune with Lava. How have your experiences been with these cards (post tuck rule for chaos). I'm considering the removal of chaos warp either for another permanent (to reduce non-permanents) or for commune with lava. I still feel as though the deck has enough card draw, but other lists seem to be running more than i do, and commune to lava does seem somewhat appetizing.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
It really shows how good Warp World can be used in a defensive situation. Thanks for sharing, I'm happy to see that I'm not the only thinking it's one of best card of the deck. Furnace of Rath is crazy though, Norin doesn't need that double-edged sword, even though it won you that game, that was in your opponent's deck and it made him lose. The only general I'd ever consider this with is probably Purphoros.
5 bodies but not at the same time. Only 4 simultaneously, which is the same as Siege-Gang Commander and less than Battlesphere. My point here is I don't recall ever hardcasting Goblin Marshal. 6 mana is a lot, I prefer casting Wurmcoil any day over this, it's more damage (and lifegain) with Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge, so the tokens really only matters with Warp World, Purphoros and Impact Tremors. It's just that I listed every token producing effects and I feel like I already have a lot and it's already working the way it should. I don't know at what point I have to keep the ETB token generating density that high. And I'm just swapping a creature that produces tokens for another one that does the same thing, with 3 creatures on the battlefield simultaneously instead of 5-1 but a lot of added value. It's a hard decision, but I think Goblin Marshal had to go. If you look closely at my mana curve, I've now got only 4 spells at 6 mana (Chandra, Duplicant, Surge and Wurmcoil), and 2 at 7 mana (Battlesphere and Warp World).
I totally feel you on Chaos Warp, I noticed that I use it on my own permanents more than ever and it's probably a sign. It's still one of the really rare card to deal with enchantments though, don't you think? I'm really hesitant when considering to remove it. But it's definitely less good with no tuck. What do you do against enchantments, more specifically? We've got Confusion, Warp World, and I also play O-Stone and P-Vault. It's probably not that bad with 4 cards, O-Stone being recurrable too. I really don't know. That spot could be used to add back P-Storm in the deck or just one more Mountain. Or Marshal. I don't know. What do you think?
Commune with Lava: I still appreciate the card every time I draw it, I usually cast it on my main phase for all my mana minus 3 (X must be at least 4, and usually you want 6 or 7, but it depends on the situation). This way, I can usually play all the cards if needed, using 2 land drops, a 4-drop on the turn I played it (18 4-drops in the deck, and only 16 cards over 4-cmc), and whatever else the turn after. I usually do this when it's the last card in my hand. YMMV, obviously, but it's sometimes better than Wheel of Fortune, not giving any cards to your opponents.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
For creature density, I somehow still feel like I could use more token producers even though I already have a ton. Warp world might be saying otherwise considering that I've only failed to win on the spot with it once in over 2+ years of playing the card and that was because I was testing 5 he limits by warp worlding with 6 permanent. I guess I have to re-evaluate whether I have enough density in my deck.
For chaos warp, I ended up asking you because recently I've run into situations where it's best use was to target my own stuff. Even though I want to remove it, I'm also unsure if I should remove it. The only situation in which some other form of removal would be worse could be against gods, but most of these gods we go up against are also commanders. Hence my conundrum.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
You really made me think about P-Storm and K-Pool again though. I kind of missed the chaos effect, even though I would often lose to these cards, that was fun. But it's not great in the deck. So I guess I'm better staying away from these cards.
Side note on Volcanic Offering since I didn't talk much about that card since I added it. It did a great job so far, with the political aspect, I usually get 4 different targets with that thing because there is always a player starting to do some degenerate things and we all want to slow him down. It works. When I added it, I said that even destroying a land AND a creature for 5 mana at instant speed was okay. But everytime I have more than 1 opponent, I managed to destroy at least 3 permanents and usually 4 if my opponents control 2+ creatures each. It's as good as spot removal will ever get in this format, and it's fun.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.