i'm very much interested in this deck but unfortunately i cannot get my hands on mana crypt. will the deck still valuable for competitive play even without it?
thanks in advance!
Sure it will. It's not like we Trinket Mage tutor for it cause we can't.
I'm pretty sure you can make this deck even more competitive than it already is if you have Mishra's Workshop and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and etc etc available.. But not everyone has acces to those and neither do I.
To make it short, yes you'll still wreck houses.
Yes, Mana Crypt is awesome and you should some day get one nevertheless. I mean, two fetches and you have enough trade for a Crypt' yo.
Besides Workshop and Tabernacle, what else could you add to make it more expensive/bonkers?
Blue? Workshop and Tabernacle seem like they're the big ones for colorless, but Force of Will/Mana Drain/Invoke Prejudice and some other great blue cards cost $$$.
On another note: Why is it that I never seem to draw Clock of Omens? A few months ago I got it like 7/10 games and I don't think I've drawn it in a month. (It's still in there, I've checked.)
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Besides Workshop and Tabernacle, what else could you add to make it more expensive/bonkers?
Candelabra of Tawnos, maybe? There's only a few crazy high-end cards that still needed. Candelabra, Workshop, Tabdernacle, and Mana Crypt are probably the most powerful cards and most expensive cards available for Kozilek. If you've got 'em, play 'em.
thanks judah for the reply. mana crypt is a bit stiff. i can't imagine those other cards you've mentioned but then again it is a work in progress. I like Mishra's Workshop this will be a trophy card for me if ever.
Alright I just snagged up an unlimited Forcefield and a Lions Eye Diamond what should I take out for these? Any good synergies with other artifacts not in the deck?
Alright I just snagged up an unlimited Forcefield and a Lions Eye Diamond what should I take out for these? Any good synergies with other artifacts not in the deck?
The way the deck is now, or in the commander "meta" now, Forcefield won't do us much good, in a more combo or stax oriented list, Forcefield is a boss. Could you post your deck strategy once more? Forcefield is awesome but you'll need to add extra cards to make it extra efficient as a strategy.
--
A different topic, I'm going to try and test Tangle Wire again in this deck, Seems like what I need atm to "get there". I'm also going to try and trade me a Lion's Eye Diamond cause I know a guy who has a playset and really want one anyway.
If you had the possibility to add more expensive cards (like the aforementioned Workshop and Tabernacle) what would you change in the deck? I'm interested in what you'd take out for them.
I do love that cycling ability though.. And Petrified Field, while a bit less good now, would be better with Mishra's Workshop and The Tabernacle involved. So my first choice would be Springjack Pasture.
So, next up would be Lion's Eye Diamond. Being a mana rock you can either choose to remove the least good rock or if you feel like you'd benefit more by actually gaining in speed and curve by cutting utility that's a little higher on mana cost. My choice would definitely be Soul Conduit, which is almost on the chopping block already either way.
The Candelabra of Tawnos, which if I ever had one would go into my mono-blue anyway. Let's not go into dream-world scenarios and think of the obvious possibilities of having this in here, with Mishra's Workshop, Eldrazi Temple and/or Ancient Tomb lands and Clock of Omens or what-not on the field. A simple 3 easily becomes 9 etc etc.
You could also choose between cutting a mana rock or choose to cut more utility.
With the addition of a million and one extra cards for speed, Mimic Vat seems like an easy cut. I'd go for a rock this time though.
It's also great in combination with your rocks in Winter Orb Scenarios and you could look into adding Cloudpost-lands.
Well that's a basic sum-up. If I ever actually obtain these powerhouses I'll probably brain-storm and theory-craft on them like a madafaka. But this should be a great start for you if you have them available.
The sideboards contain proxies I have from years and years ago. They're pretty convincing and could double as real, but in all likelihood I'll only add them in games that people are okay with it. The Kozilek deck is just a beast. But my concern is that I'll have one or two games with it against groups and no longer have a deck to play with because of how much of a threat Kozilek brings. The Memnarch variant adds some color (and fun tinkering abilities) and isn't as big of a board threat the second Memnarch is cast. Plus it adds a few more kill conditions (like a stroke of genius for infinity). What do you think, Juwdah? Elliot? Which brings the bigger heat? I want to actually play these decks against people more than once!
The sideboards contain proxies I have from years and years ago. They're pretty convincing and could double as real, but in all likelihood I'll only add them in games that people are okay with it. The Kozilek deck is just a beast. But my concern is that I'll have one or two games with it against groups and no longer have a deck to play with because of how much of a threat Kozilek brings. The Memnarch variant adds some color (and fun tinkering abilities) and isn't as big of a board threat the second Memnarch is cast. Plus it adds a few more kill conditions (like a stroke of genius for infinity). What do you think, Juwdah? Elliot? Which brings the bigger heat? I want to actually play these decks against people more than once!
I know from prior experience that Memnarch doesn't make friends (had a Memnarch deck for awhile that ran a similar theme to Kozilek; people had an irrational fear of Memnarch). Around here, Kozilek is more liked because Kozilek is ultimately a fairer deck. It's based around turning fatties sideways, whereas Memnarch (or Jin or whatever mono-blue deck you want to play) can win on the stack and control the game far more efficiently than Kozilek ever could.
Sure Kozzy brings board threat, but Memnarch brings stack threat and honestly, that's scarier than anything Kozilek can do. I'd ask whoever you play with, or just watch how they play and make a judgment that way.
The sideboards contain proxies I have from years and years ago. They're pretty convincing and could double as real, but in all likelihood I'll only add them in games that people are okay with it. The Kozilek deck is just a beast. But my concern is that I'll have one or two games with it against groups and no longer have a deck to play with because of how much of a threat Kozilek brings. The Memnarch variant adds some color (and fun tinkering abilities) and isn't as big of a board threat the second Memnarch is cast. Plus it adds a few more kill conditions (like a stroke of genius for infinity). What do you think, Juwdah? Elliot? Which brings the bigger heat? I want to actually play these decks against people more than once!
What Arguskos said and..
A few factors are quite important.
Mono-brown is original, you won't see anyone running around with it as much as you'll see mono-blue.
Memnarch as a wincon feels different than Kozilek, personally I don't find Kozilek boring, ever. But when my main goal would eventually become ramp hard into steal all, I'm not sure if I (personally) could keep doing so. If I'd choose a mono-blue commander it'd be Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur with counterbackup or Myojin of the Seeing Winds as they will feel "different" each time and allow me multiple wincons. Gauntlet of Power-esque effects and Time Spiral are way cooler with card draw than it is with Memnarch, at least, in my humble opinion.
So basically I like Kozilek more, but I'm biased.
And I don't know your friends so I'm not sure if they're either casual, semi-competitive or competitive. Would you rather see a tuned Kozilek at the table or would you rather see a (weaker), Memnarch version at the table? If you're going to bring it, why not in style?
Juwdah my deck is mirrored after yours, so basically what im asking is what would you change to include forcefield?
Aight, but what about your meta? If it's combo oriented I wouldn't even include it to begin with.
If it's not and you want a simple cut, I'd take out Soul Conduit. It's basically a cheaper way of doing things that eventually lead to the same scenario. Ofcourse you can't pop people's life total to a low, but we usually win by either destroying every permanent around or hitting once/twice with kozilek anyway.
If you're thinking of tuning the deck towards it a bit, you can try adding pressure in different ways to compliment it. Basically add more of a stax package to make sure they won't attack you or get in the red zone. Like this, it's great in meta's where you see lots of Path to Exiles and Counterspells in decks that also have combat damage as a main wincon. You'll have more late-game consistency but also have the risk of getting blown out by a random Bane of Progress.
If you want to go full throttle, I'd look into Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Token Producers and Dross Scorpion. Don't add too much though, the main list already has some Stax-effects that are effective already and adding too much might make it durdley instead. Unless you really, really like that Forcefield and really, really want to try a full on Stax-variant for it.
If it were me, I'd just cut Soul Conduit first, and play-test it for a month or three. If it's working out better than Soul Conduit (probably), you have effectively made the deck stronger, if you feel you can abuse it even more, think of ways to compliment the Forcefield strategy and take out what doesn't. If you feel like it's good enough already, come back here and share some stories
So I totally updated my Kozilek, Tested a few games, and then had to travel for work.
I've been on Floyd Bennett Field, NY, Installing and running a VR Tactical Trainer for the NYPD. No time to smash face with Kozilek.
However.
In my testing against a Sharoom and a Kaalia, I found some interesting things with the latest changes.
The Sharoom deck, T101 got countered, but I was able to explorer's map for Eldrazi Temple and simple re-cast the same turn.
8 card draw in a single turn? not many people are coming back from that, took that game handily.
The next game, I got Countered into Oblivion, lost that game, slow and grindy.
Forgemaster got hindered, etc.
The Sharoom deck had just about every counter, and just about every way to get instants / sorceries back into hand from the graveyard.
Also FRIGGEN SNAPCASTER MAGE.
I got Hindered into a Tunnel Vision.
I couldn't even be mad, that was Hilarious, even with my yard reshuffling a few times.
I'll be able to play again maybe next weekend, when I am back home in the South.
I read this thread a ways back when I was playing Karn and your pages numbered in the single digits. After a bit, you ended up convincing me to play Kozilek, as I got somewhat bored with combo-kills and people seeing Karn and attacking me (he's got a reputation here).
I started a very similar Kozilek list about three months ago, and in my time, the only decks that have been able to go toe-to-toe with the deck are certain GoodStuff.decs (mostly including the likes of Bane of Progress, Sylvan Primordial/Acidic Slime + Rite of Replication, etc) and a guy who runs a multi-thousand-dollar Sliver Queen Planeswalker deck, which is really just more good stuff anyway.
I've been quite impressed with the deck, and must give kudos to the builder, even if mine is a bit different. Figured might as well post after these months.
I can't remember and don't have time to check right now, but has anyone suggested Hall of the Bandit Lord yet?
So I totally updated my Kozilek, Tested a few games, and then had to travel for work.
I've been on Floyd Bennett Field, NY, Installing and running a VR Tactical Trainer for the NYPD. No time to smash face with Kozilek.
However.
In my testing against a Sharoom and a Kaalia, I found some interesting things with the latest changes.
The Sharoom deck, T101 got countered, but I was able to explorer's map for Eldrazi Temple and simple re-cast the same turn.
8 card draw in a single turn? not many people are coming back from that, took that game handily.
The next game, I got Countered into Oblivion, lost that game, slow and grindy.
Forgemaster got hindered, etc.
The Sharoom deck had just about every counter, and just about every way to get instants / sorceries back into hand from the graveyard.
Also FRIGGEN SNAPCASTER MAGE.
I got Hindered into a Tunnel Vision.
I couldn't even be mad, that was Hilarious, even with my yard reshuffling a few times.
I'll be able to play again maybe next weekend, when I am back home in the South.
MMhmhm I love me some Snapcaster Mage myself so I guess I can't even be mad about that. Good thing to see you share stories though, I'm always interested in different meta's and how to react to them.
I read this thread a ways back when I was playing Karn and your pages numbered in the single digits. After a bit, you ended up convincing me to play Kozilek, as I got somewhat bored with combo-kills and people seeing Karn and attacking me (he's got a reputation here).
I started a very similar Kozilek list about three months ago, and in my time, the only decks that have been able to go toe-to-toe with the deck are certain GoodStuff.decs (mostly including the likes of Bane of Progress, Sylvan Primordial/Acidic Slime + Rite of Replication, etc) and a guy who runs a multi-thousand-dollar Sliver Queen Planeswalker deck, which is really just more good stuff anyway.
I've been quite impressed with the deck, and must give kudos to the builder, even if mine is a bit different. Figured might as well post after these months.
I can't remember and don't have time to check right now, but has anyone suggested Hall of the Bandit Lord yet?
First of all: thank you
I'm glad I convinced you as I self, was a Karn player once and probably felt the same one day.
Odd though, has Kozilek not stood up and take a reputation for his own yet? Either way, I like playing this deck as an archenemy more than any other.
About the Hall, there was a small discussion on it on page 6.
Here's the "largest" piece of text I wrote about it but you can always go back and check yourself.
I had it.
It basically said "pay 3 life, make someone sac 4 permanents, ...The next turn"
Come into play tapped is a *****. It wrecks ramp IMO. My playgroup had this "hall of the bandit lord period" once because they were amazed by it. Took like a day to figure out how crappy it actually is on the field. It might give haste but a turn sooner is always better. Definitely with Kozilek refilling that hand sooner.
Edit: this might actually need more explanation.
If this is played on turn 1, to negate the drawback of Cipt as much as possible, it will be needed to cast all the mana rocks in the next occuring turns. This means t2, t3, t4 = 9 damage. And chances are, kozilek came t5, which would be 12 damage. O.K life is a resource, but this is pulling it. The rest of the game it will be hard to use as a mana source and will only ever be used to give Kozilek haste.
What's even worse is. That when you sacrifice all that life, it's just a pongify away from being useless. P o n g i f y. Kozilek is easy to remove and we all know this. This thread was written to prove that it takes the removal as a pro instead of a con. Going all ballers with Hall of the bandit lord on your general will just get you killed. And yes, they will see it coming because no matter what turn you played it in, it will be there for a turn already because of the come into play tapped. There will be untapped lands waiting for you and there will be a response. Be sure of that.
If you do decide to run it, be sure to come back and share how you're abusing it
First of all: thank you
I'm glad I convinced you as I self, was a Karn player once and probably felt the same one day.
Odd though, has Kozilek not stood up and take a reputation for his own yet? Either way, I like playing this deck as an archenemy more than any other.
True story, my Karn list was 80% the same as your Kozilek list. That's a big reason why I moved Generals, since I'd just have to swap out a reasonably small amount of cards from my current one. Next step, Arcum Dagsson
Karn had his reputation because of our judge who used to run it a lot and kick ass, so everyone's afraid of it. I'm the only one to run Kozilek, though, so he's still obscure to a lot of people. A few of them, including the store owner, claim he's a bad general anyway, saying they had called Wizards who said his trigger doesn't work from the Command Zone (not sure how they think Prossh, Skyraider of Kher works, then :-/).
The variations I run from your deck are these, by the way:
- Wasteland
- Miren, the Moaning Well
- Rishadan Port
- Deserted Temple
- Soul Conduit
- Semblance Anvil
+ Urza lands
+ Cloud Key
+ Wurmcoil Engine
+ Planar Portal
Probably going to drop Planar Portal for another land. It's good when things are going wrong, but other than that, eh. I like the Urza ones and never really had a time where I've wished they were something else, even if I've only scarcely assembled Tron (I've only ever gotten it naturally, no Map, and boy does it feel good).
I do like Anvil for the explosive turns it can make (played it back when it was Standard, even; free Myr Superion are pretty good), but I never find myself with a card I'm willing to discard, and there's a fair chance of it eating a Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, Putrefy, Shatter, etc., in my area. Not much in the decks paints a target on its head quite like Semblance Anvil.
I've also been impressed with just how much Storm Cauldron grinds the game to a halt. I've had plenty of people just stop being able to do anything because it's on the field. It's turned a lot of games into "Draw, land, go" from my opponents while I'm sitting there going "Whhheeee, ertaferks, look at all me mana rocks!" and continuing with my game plan. And heavens, don't get me started on Cauldron + Crucible + Strip Mine. Send a land back to your hand for free? I'll take it.
True story, my Karn list was 80% the same as your Kozilek list. That's a big reason why I moved Generals, since I'd just have to swap out a reasonably small amount of cards from my current one. Next step, Arcum Dagsson
Karn had his reputation because of our judge who used to run it a lot and kick ass, so everyone's afraid of it. I'm the only one to run Kozilek, though, so he's still obscure to a lot of people. A few of them, including the store owner, claim he's a bad general anyway, saying they had called Wizards who said his trigger doesn't work from the Command Zone (not sure how they think Prossh, Skyraider of Kher works, then :-/).
The variations I run from your deck are these, by the way:
- Wasteland
- Miren, the Moaning Well
- Rishadan Port
- Deserted Temple
- Soul Conduit
- Semblance Anvil
+ Urza lands
+ Cloud Key
+ Wurmcoil Engine
+ Planar Portal
Probably going to drop Planar Portal for another land. It's good when things are going wrong, but other than that, eh. I like the Urza ones and never really had a time where I've wished they were something else, even if I've only scarcely assembled Tron (I've only ever gotten it naturally, no Map, and boy does it feel good).
I do like Anvil for the explosive turns it can make (played it back when it was Standard, even; free Myr Superion are pretty good), but I never find myself with a card I'm willing to discard, and there's a fair chance of it eating a Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, Putrefy, Shatter, etc., in my area. Not much in the decks paints a target on its head quite like Semblance Anvil.
I've also been impressed with just how much Storm Cauldron grinds the game to a halt. I've had plenty of people just stop being able to do anything because it's on the field. It's turned a lot of games into "Draw, land, go" from my opponents while I'm sitting there going "Whhheeee, ertaferks, look at all me mana rocks!" and continuing with my game plan. And heavens, don't get me started on Cauldron + Crucible + Strip Mine. Send a land back to your hand for free? I'll take it.
If they're claiming Kozi doesn't work, aside from being absolutely incorrect, switch to Jin instead of Arcum. Arcum is extremely linier and very quickly boring with the same wincon every game.
Jin is a hilarious general that plays arch enemy and wins anyways. I played a game thursday that went like this:
Jin plays similarly to Kozilek, except you want him to live, and he causes them to lose 99% of the time if he lives through their end step. (Make sure to include instant speed bounce that can hit Reliquary Tower turning end phase before discard. So many people feel stupidly safe because of it.)
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
So I just won a 6 man game online with the Jin version of this deck, and I found a card that my opponent played that assisted my win. Have the Jin players considered Shared Fate?
P.S. Should Kozilek and Jin share the same thread?
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Is it possible to play a kinder, gentler Kozilek? The shop where I play just cannot handle this monster of a deck, but I rather enjoy playing it. It's not about wrecking scrubs with this high-powered killing machine, it's just that I find colorless EDH to be quite interesting, and this is exactly my kind of colorless EDH build.
Is there anyway to play Koziliek as a general without just crushing casual tables? I mean, sure, I could take out the good cards and fill the deck with garbage like Jangling Automaton, but that's just terrible. I'm thinking about an effective deck with a lower ceiling.
Is it possible to play a kinder, gentler Kozilek? The shop where I play just cannot handle this monster of a deck, but I rather enjoy playing it. It's not about wrecking scrubs with this high-powered killing machine, it's just that I find colorless EDH to be quite interesting, and this is exactly my kind of colorless EDH build.
Is there anyway to play Koziliek as a general without just crushing casual tables? I mean, sure, I could take out the good cards and fill the deck with garbage like Jangling Automaton, but that's just terrible. I'm thinking about an effective deck with a lower ceiling.
I think that would depend on just how you're trying to make it nicer. If you're trying to make the deck slower, dial down the ramp some. Take out Mana Crypt/Vault, Basalt and Grim Monoliths, etc., for generally weaker, but still effective, cards. Mind Stone, Pristine Talisman, stuff like that.
If you're trying to make the deck more friendly to the table, you could try taking out mean cards like Winter Orb and Storm Cauldron in favor of group hug cards like Anvil of Bogardan, Howling Mine, and Font of Mythos.
As far as the creatures, few in the deck are horribly impactful on their own. If you were to cut any, I'd say probably Ulamog and Blightsteel in favor of Wurmcoil and, if you want to get cheeky, Colossus of Akros. You could also cut the Swiftfoot Boots and/or Lightning Greaves just to make things more "fair."
That said, maybe I'm not the one who should tell you how to tone down this deck, but I figured I'd try my hand at it.
You could also try shifting gears and playing Karn, though he's a very different deck, despite, like I said, the decks being 80% the same thing. Still fun, just much slower, and not nearly as much "Blargablarga, mana rocks, ramp, kill you." Turn four commanding board position is much less frequent, but you do get to experience a lot of the cool interactions that Kozilek simply doesn't have time for.
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Sure it will. It's not like we Trinket Mage tutor for it cause we can't.
I'm pretty sure you can make this deck even more competitive than it already is if you have Mishra's Workshop and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and etc etc available.. But not everyone has acces to those and neither do I.
To make it short, yes you'll still wreck houses.
Yes, Mana Crypt is awesome and you should some day get one nevertheless. I mean, two fetches and you have enough trade for a Crypt' yo.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Blue? Workshop and Tabernacle seem like they're the big ones for colorless, but Force of Will/Mana Drain/Invoke Prejudice and some other great blue cards cost $$$.
On another note: Why is it that I never seem to draw Clock of Omens? A few months ago I got it like 7/10 games and I don't think I've drawn it in a month. (It's still in there, I've checked.)
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Candelabra of Tawnos, maybe? There's only a few crazy high-end cards that still needed. Candelabra, Workshop, Tabdernacle, and Mana Crypt are probably the most powerful cards and most expensive cards available for Kozilek. If you've got 'em, play 'em.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
Are some of the expensive ones, there's probably more that I'm not thinking of right now.
The way the deck is now, or in the commander "meta" now, Forcefield won't do us much good, in a more combo or stax oriented list, Forcefield is a boss. Could you post your deck strategy once more? Forcefield is awesome but you'll need to add extra cards to make it extra efficient as a strategy.
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A different topic, I'm going to try and test Tangle Wire again in this deck, Seems like what I need atm to "get there". I'm also going to try and trade me a Lion's Eye Diamond cause I know a guy who has a playset and really want one anyway.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Mishra's Workshop is easy, a land you don't actually need.
This can vary, good options to cut are: Springjack Pasture, Petrified Field and maybe Blasted Landscape
I do love that cycling ability though.. And Petrified Field, while a bit less good now, would be better with Mishra's Workshop and The Tabernacle involved. So my first choice would be Springjack Pasture.
The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale gets a little different. First of all I'm playtesting cards like Shimmer Myr now and should be considering them less if Tabernacle was in. Luckily the main list is not token-based at all and only uses them as utility fodder which means it wouldn't change too much. I'd probably cut Predator Flagship due to being very expensive removal which The Tabernacle is way better at anyway. I'd also look at adding more cards like Tangle Wire and Forcefield if I have acces to both Mishra's Workshop, Lion's Eye Diamond and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
So, next up would be Lion's Eye Diamond. Being a mana rock you can either choose to remove the least good rock or if you feel like you'd benefit more by actually gaining in speed and curve by cutting utility that's a little higher on mana cost. My choice would definitely be Soul Conduit, which is almost on the chopping block already either way.
The Candelabra of Tawnos, which if I ever had one would go into my mono-blue anyway. Let's not go into dream-world scenarios and think of the obvious possibilities of having this in here, with Mishra's Workshop, Eldrazi Temple and/or Ancient Tomb lands and Clock of Omens or what-not on the field. A simple 3 easily becomes 9 etc etc.
You could also choose between cutting a mana rock or choose to cut more utility.
With the addition of a million and one extra cards for speed, Mimic Vat seems like an easy cut. I'd go for a rock this time though.
It's also great in combination with your rocks in Winter Orb Scenarios and you could look into adding Cloudpost-lands.
Well that's a basic sum-up. If I ever actually obtain these powerhouses I'll probably brain-storm and theory-craft on them like a madafaka. But this should be a great start for you if you have them available.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blasted Landscape
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Deserted Temple
1 Dust Bowl
1 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 High Market
1 Homeward Path
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Petrified Field
1 Phyrexia's Core
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rishadan Port
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
Sorcery
1 All Is Dust
Artifact
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Blinkmoth Urn
1 Clock of Omens
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Doubling Cube
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Helm of Possession
1 Karn Liberated
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Kyren Toy
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Eye
1 Mindslaver
1 Mirrorworks
1 Mox Opal
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Myr Turbine
1 Null Brooch
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Semblance Anvil
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Soul Conduit
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
1 Storm Cauldron
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Tangle Wire
1 Tawnos's Coffin
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb
1 Trading Post
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Voltaic Key
1 Winter Orb
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 It That Betrays
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Shimmer Myr
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Thopter Assembly
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Magistrate's Scepter
1 Mimic Vat
1 Ur-Golem's Eye
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Mishra's Workshop
And its blue, more controlling variant:
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Flooded Strand
1 High Market
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Maze of Ith
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rishadan Port
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
15 Snow-Covered Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
Enchantment
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Copy Artifact
1 Power Artifact
Instant
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery
1 Fabricate
1 Reshape
1 Time Spiral
1 Transmute Artifact
Artifact
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Caged Sun
1 Clock of Omens
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Myr Turbine
1 Null Brooch
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Semblance Anvil
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb
1 Trading Post
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Voltaic Key
1 Winter Orb
1 Arcum Dagsson
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Master Transmuter
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Palladium Myr
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Plague Myr
1 Shimmer Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Spellskite
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Trinket Mage
1 Memnarch
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Timetwister
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
The sideboards contain proxies I have from years and years ago. They're pretty convincing and could double as real, but in all likelihood I'll only add them in games that people are okay with it. The Kozilek deck is just a beast. But my concern is that I'll have one or two games with it against groups and no longer have a deck to play with because of how much of a threat Kozilek brings. The Memnarch variant adds some color (and fun tinkering abilities) and isn't as big of a board threat the second Memnarch is cast. Plus it adds a few more kill conditions (like a stroke of genius for infinity). What do you think, Juwdah? Elliot? Which brings the bigger heat? I want to actually play these decks against people more than once!
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I know from prior experience that Memnarch doesn't make friends (had a Memnarch deck for awhile that ran a similar theme to Kozilek; people had an irrational fear of Memnarch). Around here, Kozilek is more liked because Kozilek is ultimately a fairer deck. It's based around turning fatties sideways, whereas Memnarch (or Jin or whatever mono-blue deck you want to play) can win on the stack and control the game far more efficiently than Kozilek ever could.
Sure Kozzy brings board threat, but Memnarch brings stack threat and honestly, that's scarier than anything Kozilek can do. I'd ask whoever you play with, or just watch how they play and make a judgment that way.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
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What Arguskos said and..
A few factors are quite important.
Mono-brown is original, you won't see anyone running around with it as much as you'll see mono-blue.
Memnarch as a wincon feels different than Kozilek, personally I don't find Kozilek boring, ever. But when my main goal would eventually become ramp hard into steal all, I'm not sure if I (personally) could keep doing so. If I'd choose a mono-blue commander it'd be Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur with counterbackup or Myojin of the Seeing Winds as they will feel "different" each time and allow me multiple wincons. Gauntlet of Power-esque effects and Time Spiral are way cooler with card draw than it is with Memnarch, at least, in my humble opinion.
So basically I like Kozilek more, but I'm biased.
And I don't know your friends so I'm not sure if they're either casual, semi-competitive or competitive. Would you rather see a tuned Kozilek at the table or would you rather see a (weaker), Memnarch version at the table? If you're going to bring it, why not in style?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Aight, but what about your meta? If it's combo oriented I wouldn't even include it to begin with.
If it's not and you want a simple cut, I'd take out Soul Conduit. It's basically a cheaper way of doing things that eventually lead to the same scenario. Ofcourse you can't pop people's life total to a low, but we usually win by either destroying every permanent around or hitting once/twice with kozilek anyway.
If you're thinking of tuning the deck towards it a bit, you can try adding pressure in different ways to compliment it. Basically add more of a stax package to make sure they won't attack you or get in the red zone. Like this, it's great in meta's where you see lots of Path to Exiles and Counterspells in decks that also have combat damage as a main wincon. You'll have more late-game consistency but also have the risk of getting blown out by a random Bane of Progress.
If you want to go full throttle, I'd look into Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Token Producers and Dross Scorpion. Don't add too much though, the main list already has some Stax-effects that are effective already and adding too much might make it durdley instead. Unless you really, really like that Forcefield and really, really want to try a full on Stax-variant for it.
If it were me, I'd just cut Soul Conduit first, and play-test it for a month or three. If it's working out better than Soul Conduit (probably), you have effectively made the deck stronger, if you feel you can abuse it even more, think of ways to compliment the Forcefield strategy and take out what doesn't. If you feel like it's good enough already, come back here and share some stories
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Metalworker is banned in EDH. If your group doesn't use the ban list, then yeah, it's fantastic.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
Agreed. It quite arguably should not be banned, but it is. C'est la vie.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
I've been on Floyd Bennett Field, NY, Installing and running a VR Tactical Trainer for the NYPD. No time to smash face with Kozilek.
However.
In my testing against a Sharoom and a Kaalia, I found some interesting things with the latest changes.
The Sharoom deck, T101 got countered, but I was able to explorer's map for Eldrazi Temple and simple re-cast the same turn.
8 card draw in a single turn? not many people are coming back from that, took that game handily.
The next game, I got Countered into Oblivion, lost that game, slow and grindy.
Forgemaster got hindered, etc.
The Sharoom deck had just about every counter, and just about every way to get instants / sorceries back into hand from the graveyard.
Also FRIGGEN SNAPCASTER MAGE.
I got Hindered into a Tunnel Vision.
I couldn't even be mad, that was Hilarious, even with my yard reshuffling a few times.
I'll be able to play again maybe next weekend, when I am back home in the South.
I started a very similar Kozilek list about three months ago, and in my time, the only decks that have been able to go toe-to-toe with the deck are certain GoodStuff.decs (mostly including the likes of Bane of Progress, Sylvan Primordial/Acidic Slime + Rite of Replication, etc) and a guy who runs a multi-thousand-dollar Sliver Queen Planeswalker deck, which is really just more good stuff anyway.
I've been quite impressed with the deck, and must give kudos to the builder, even if mine is a bit different. Figured might as well post after these months.
I can't remember and don't have time to check right now, but has anyone suggested Hall of the Bandit Lord yet?
MMhmhm I love me some Snapcaster Mage myself so I guess I can't even be mad about that. Good thing to see you share stories though, I'm always interested in different meta's and how to react to them.
Exploration Map for Eye of Ugin would've been good too, definitely with all that Hindering going on.
First of all: thank you
I'm glad I convinced you as I self, was a Karn player once and probably felt the same one day.
Odd though, has Kozilek not stood up and take a reputation for his own yet? Either way, I like playing this deck as an archenemy more than any other.
About the Hall, there was a small discussion on it on page 6.
Here's the "largest" piece of text I wrote about it but you can always go back and check yourself.
If you do decide to run it, be sure to come back and share how you're abusing it
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
True story, my Karn list was 80% the same as your Kozilek list. That's a big reason why I moved Generals, since I'd just have to swap out a reasonably small amount of cards from my current one. Next step, Arcum Dagsson
Karn had his reputation because of our judge who used to run it a lot and kick ass, so everyone's afraid of it. I'm the only one to run Kozilek, though, so he's still obscure to a lot of people. A few of them, including the store owner, claim he's a bad general anyway, saying they had called Wizards who said his trigger doesn't work from the Command Zone (not sure how they think Prossh, Skyraider of Kher works, then :-/).
The variations I run from your deck are these, by the way:
- Wasteland
- Miren, the Moaning Well
- Rishadan Port
- Deserted Temple
- Soul Conduit
- Semblance Anvil
+ Urza lands
+ Cloud Key
+ Wurmcoil Engine
+ Planar Portal
Probably going to drop Planar Portal for another land. It's good when things are going wrong, but other than that, eh. I like the Urza ones and never really had a time where I've wished they were something else, even if I've only scarcely assembled Tron (I've only ever gotten it naturally, no Map, and boy does it feel good).
I do like Anvil for the explosive turns it can make (played it back when it was Standard, even; free Myr Superion are pretty good), but I never find myself with a card I'm willing to discard, and there's a fair chance of it eating a Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, Putrefy, Shatter, etc., in my area. Not much in the decks paints a target on its head quite like Semblance Anvil.
I've also been impressed with just how much Storm Cauldron grinds the game to a halt. I've had plenty of people just stop being able to do anything because it's on the field. It's turned a lot of games into "Draw, land, go" from my opponents while I'm sitting there going "Whhheeee, ertaferks, look at all me mana rocks!" and continuing with my game plan. And heavens, don't get me started on Cauldron + Crucible + Strip Mine. Send a land back to your hand for free? I'll take it.
If they're claiming Kozi doesn't work, aside from being absolutely incorrect, switch to Jin instead of Arcum. Arcum is extremely linier and very quickly boring with the same wincon every game.
Jin is a hilarious general that plays arch enemy and wins anyways. I played a game thursday that went like this:
Turn 1:
- Island
- Mana Crypt
- Voltaic Key
- Trinket Mage
(Getting Mana Vault)Turn 2:
Turn 3:
Cast Jin EoT Before me, Killed.
Turn 4:
Cast Jin EoT Before me, lives.
Turn 5:
Akroma's Memorial
Phyrexian Metamorph (As Gilded Lotus)
Thran Dynamo
Counter all the threats to Jin
Turn 6:
Fabricate -> Blightsteel Colossus -> dead opponent -> everyone else scoops after I counter their removal
Jin plays similarly to Kozilek, except you want him to live, and he causes them to lose 99% of the time if he lives through their end step. (Make sure to include instant speed bounce that can hit Reliquary Tower turning end phase before discard. So many people feel stupidly safe because of it.)
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
P.S. Should Kozilek and Jin share the same thread?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Is there anyway to play Koziliek as a general without just crushing casual tables? I mean, sure, I could take out the good cards and fill the deck with garbage like Jangling Automaton, but that's just terrible. I'm thinking about an effective deck with a lower ceiling.
Maybe downgrade the ramp (say Guardian Idol instead of Mana Crypt)? Make it all about mid-level, decent artifact creatures (like Wurmcoil Engine)?
Captain Sisay - Efficient Toolbox Control
Kemba, Kha Regent - Equipment & Mini-stax
I think that would depend on just how you're trying to make it nicer. If you're trying to make the deck slower, dial down the ramp some. Take out Mana Crypt/Vault, Basalt and Grim Monoliths, etc., for generally weaker, but still effective, cards. Mind Stone, Pristine Talisman, stuff like that.
If you're trying to make the deck more friendly to the table, you could try taking out mean cards like Winter Orb and Storm Cauldron in favor of group hug cards like Anvil of Bogardan, Howling Mine, and Font of Mythos.
As far as the creatures, few in the deck are horribly impactful on their own. If you were to cut any, I'd say probably Ulamog and Blightsteel in favor of Wurmcoil and, if you want to get cheeky, Colossus of Akros. You could also cut the Swiftfoot Boots and/or Lightning Greaves just to make things more "fair."
That said, maybe I'm not the one who should tell you how to tone down this deck, but I figured I'd try my hand at it.
You could also try shifting gears and playing Karn, though he's a very different deck, despite, like I said, the decks being 80% the same thing. Still fun, just much slower, and not nearly as much "Blargablarga, mana rocks, ramp, kill you." Turn four commanding board position is much less frequent, but you do get to experience a lot of the cool interactions that Kozilek simply doesn't have time for.