So nojw that Wastes will give us the opportunity to play basics, what do you guys think about running a handful and then playing some ramp cards like Solemn SimulacrumMyriad Landscape and even Thawing Glaciers?
I think Myriad & Thawing Glaciers are both too slow. We'd be better off sticking with mana rocks. Mana Moose might belong now though.
Just a quick note: Myriad Landscape doesn't work with Wastes. Myriad makes it so you have to find two lands with the same land type. Wastes have no land type (Basic is a Supertype) so Myraid won't be able to find them.
Regarding the question: I am running 6 wastes with Solemn and Burnished Hart. I am still waiting to play a few games to determine if it is too slow or not.
So I've done a decent amount of testing with new Kozilek as the general and old Kozi in the 99. The counterspell ability is usually enough to protect him from one spell, sometimes two. It's effective in stopping others from going off too. Menace has done a lot more work than I thought it would. I've won games with general damage because they can't block him. The biggest boon has been the fill to 7 cards. I've drawn ~6 cards with him on an average cast. I've had numerous times of 7 and 5, with one case so far of 3. The sheer card advantage has been ridiculous and can't be easily dealt with.
I've also done a little testing with Null Brooch and it's been effective as a counter to control decks, though I haven't done too many games with it. It did empty my hand for a 7 card draw from new Kozi.
I'll be adding some more new stuff this week and will playtest more, but I'm loving new Kozi and my playgroup both loves and hates him. Love because he's so good, and hate for the very same reason. Keep testing everyone! And here's hoping for more insane support for our colorless brethren!
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Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion Omnath, Locus of Mana Rhys the Exiled (Elves) Progenitus (Planeswalkers) Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks) Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord Kaalia the Vast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general) Roon of the Hidden Realm
Hey! Long time follower, first time poster. I'm a Kozzy 1.0 player who had modeled a lot of his deckbuilding off of the concepts you all suggest in this thread (specifically, the first page and the recent overhaul that hasn't quite made it to the front yet).
The potency is pretty real. I've been playing with restraints, opting out of Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith, and Metalworker as well as the all-important clock of omens. The deck still fights like a monster, even in what I would consider to be a suboptimized form without the full utility and mana suite that puts it over the top. This is changing now that my meta is hardening up (just ordered my metalworker and friends).
For those of you discussing 2 mana accelerants, I believe Mind Stone is generally superior to most of what has been suggested, and it still is debatable. In a build without Dark Depths, I see Chromatic Lantern as almost worse than Mind Stone, given that it affects only the unobtainable Tabernacle and (the much more attainable) Eye of Ugin.
I have a few questions:
Why no Dark Depths? Vesuva and Thespian Stage occasionally turn it into another lightning speed murder machine, for no mana. I appreciate the high premium this deck places on land drops and mana production, but I feel like I would slot in Dark Depths as utility murder over Ashnod's Altar when I very frequently do not have chumps to eat.
At what point in the meta do you sacrifice efficiency for hate cards? What is the most effective way to counteract Gaddock Teeg hatebear lockdowns? Pray? I'm speaking to cards alluded to on the front page, such as Stony Silence and its friends. When do Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker come into play?
I'd like to ask the users who were debating it: why is Alhammarret's Archive not a win more card? The odds of "draw 4" (or variable, with Koz 2.0) whiffing is very low. Even if it did whiff, and your Koz is removed from the battlefield, the cards you did get almost certainly enable another cast. If they don't, they put you in a political position of great power--not an immediate threat, drawing enemy fire, but capable of becoming one again before anyone realizes what happened. People discount Draw 4. Nobody discounts Draw 8, which does not, in my opinion, accelerate this deck's endgame. I'm sure there are scenarios where drawing 8 is superior, and the doctrine of pure card advantage is all about getting as many cards into your hand as possible, but I think playing Ham Archive discounts the Philosophy of Fire--killing your opponent is the best card advantage there is, and I think spending 5 mana in a way that does not directly move your deck toward accomplishing this is wasteful.
Wastes: Worth playing to counteract Wave of Vitriol and so Solemn Simulacrum / Burnished Hart can improve our game, or are the nonbasics too critical to squander? What other cards interact with basics in colorless that might be of use to the build? I'm not keen on Terrain Generator.
What activated abilities are you using your Rings of Brighthearth on? When is it most effective? I'm wondering if I should slot one in or not.
Lastly, is Soul of New Phyrexia relevant enough to include? The indestructibility seems interesting, as it negates common blowouts like Vandalblast, but the issue of slowdown like in the case of Ham Archive is very real.
@RaidAurora: Just some of my anecdotal experiences.
Mind Stone - I'm actually playing and enjoying it right now, although I might be taking it out once OGW comes out.
Chromatic Lantern - Along with Urborg, I like this card perhaps more than I should. It's been relevant with Eye of Ugin, Maze of Ith, Ancient Tomb (If you want to tap for 1 mana) Temple of the False God (don't have 5 lands) and Mishra's Workshop (Just got this card a few days ago. Fantastic on it's own, but sometimes nice to tap to cast your general!) I don't own Tabernacle right now, but I'm planning on acquiring it eventually; even know someone who might trade theirs.
Dark Depths - Don't own it, haven't playtested it, but could be fun. My only fear is that the number of times you actually get Marit Lage will be rare, and in the meantime you have a dead card. (Unless you have Urborg/Chromatic Lantern on the field) And it's not like the deck is lacking finishers.
Ashnod's Altar - While this can combine well with things like Myr Battlesphere, I've usually used it as a sac outlet for Kozilek so I can draw more cards. YMMV in your deck & playgroup.
Gaddock Teeg - Please let me know if you come up with some good plans. Might just be "Play more creatures" like Endbringer, New Kozilek, Solemn Simulacrum... But yeah this matchup has been demoralizing at times.
Alhammerret's Archive - I really want to like this card, and perhaps I would if I playtested it, but it doesn't *seem* to be filling a niche this deck needs. In your opening hand, would you rather see this or Sisay's Ring? I'd rather see the ring, because anything that helps me cast Kozilek a turn faster is fantastic. Also, Judwah and I are not running Reliquary or Thought Vessel (as far as I know) So we're pretty guaranteed to be discarding extra cards (which granted, is still good) I just feel that casting Kozilek is already such a blowout in your favor, that it really is unnecessary to double the card draw. It does also have synergy with Sensei's Divining Top, Hedron Archive, Mind Stone and other good cards, so it's by no means bad. But 5 mana+ utility cards with no immediate impact on their own have been hitting the chopping block lately.
Wastes - I'm guessing the correct number is going to be 3 or something just so you can use Solemn Simulacrum and not cry when Path to Exile/Ghost Quarter/ and to a lesser extent, Waves of Vitriol hits. But I'd like to a playtest a budget version of the deck with like 30 Wastes and see all the ways we can take advantage of basics.
Rings of Brighthearth - While the loss of Basalt Monolith and to a lesser extent, Grim Monolith diminishes it's usefullness for combos, it's still a powerhouse card for all lands with an activated ability, planeswalkers, and many artifacts, like any of the card draw ones. This fills an Alhammerret's Archive-ish role and does so much more in many cases.
Soul of New Phyrexia - I'm not an especially good person to ask on this one, since I don't even run Darksteel Forge; not big on 9 mana spells that don't do anything. But I don't play in the same game store very often; I've been touring 4 different game stores since I moved to Washington and even go back to my old game store in Oregon on occasion, so I haven't really fallen into consistent playgroups that specifically run hate against my deck. I might see the appeal of Darksteel Forge and Soul a lot more if I did have one playgroup.
EDIT: But I have playtested Soul of New Phyrexia before and it's alright as a 6/6 trample creature with an occasionally relevant protection ability; but don't count on it. Krosan Grip gets around this. People will force you to use this ability only to add on to the stack an even more devastating spell and you won't have the mana open to stop that one. For absolute defense, stick with Darksteel Forge.
@Chort- I like the "Play more creatures" gameplan. Endbringer bears testing, I suspect it isn't as insanely good as Conduit (which gives you one of your ulamogs or blightsteel colossus and ramps) but the card advantage is pretty plain there. It's all a matter of what should step down in the list to make room.
Loss of Basalt/Grim Monolith is about to be rectified in my decklist; I'll consider adding Rings as my budget allows. I'm seeing more of the utility for Chromatic Lantern now that you're pointing out its broader range of targets.
Ran into a bit of difficulty with the classic Spike Edric list. Do you think the addition of the higher tier mana rocks will make this matchup more bearable? What's our angle against infinity turns decks, outpace and beat down?
Anyone have a realization that this means that with lands, Kozilek the Distortion, and so on that we may finally in the next few years see a Colorless Preconstructed deck?
Yes!
I actually thought they'd surprise us with the 2015 commander set when some people said there'd be 6 decks. Unfortunately it was just people misreading stuff
It would really open up more strategies for colorless if they do so, though.
Judwah, just... Thank you. You're a national treasure. At least for Kozilek players. =)
I traded for a Kozilek in March this year, and had fun just trying to get enough lands to make a deck. Eventually I went online and found your guide. By June, I had gone on an eBay/tcgplayer spree, picking up Wasteland, Rishadan Port and all the good stuff. And finally, December I'm breaking out in a cold sweat as I just purchased a Mishra's Workshop on eBay from someone with minimal history as a seller. (Still on the lookout for the tabernacle) Maybe I shouldn't be thanking you; you've created a monster.
Haha, anyway, super stoked like everyone about all the possibilities opening up with the new set. I mean, how exciting is it that they've created this new mana symbol for exclusively colorless! You'd imagine they'll be using this mana symbol on cards in future sets beyond OftG since they're going through the trouble of printing it on mana sources from now until forever.
Now! To contribute to the card discussion. Have you considered Terminal Moraine? I like it better than Evolving Wilds, because sometimes you simply need the mana and you won't always have Urborg/Lantern. Why would you run a fetchland at all? Deck thinning and abuse-able with Rings of Brighthearth, Crucible of Worlds. And sometimes just a shuffle effect can be nice. (Sensei's divining top, scroll rack, for those that still run it.)But maybe other lands provide more needed utility; let me know what you think?
Endbringer... I'll definitely try it out in the deck for a while. One of the things I love about Eldrazi are the cast triggers, so this misses that mark, but it certainly has a lot of useful stuff, and like most things, seems a lot better with haste, so hopefully you can combine it with boots/memorial.
I wonder if Urza's Incubator will ever be worth considering. If we keep on getting sweet Eldrazi, replacing our non-Eldrazi tech, I think it could actually be quite good. (I think I'll try New Kozilek replacing my Loreseeker's Stone, for example.)
@Frostdragon4: For a while now I've been wondering if Wizards would consider doing just a colorless and 5 color deck as the EDH decks. Maybe up the MSRP. But this certainly seems a lot more plausible with the introduction of Wastes. And it'd be nice to see a ton of reprints with the new mana symbol. And good lord, 2 new generals? 15 new cards? T'would be glorious.
Welcome to Kozilek!
Thanks for the kind words, nice to see that you're fully enjoying yourself and going all in on the deckbuilding!
On Terminal Moraine: I don't see it being useful over other utility lands, sure, the Crucible interaction is there. But their combined strenght isn't great enough to include this over lands that provide more utility on their own. It is budget friendly though, and seems like a cool tech when it works.
Maybe some Karn decks will play this along with Evolving Wilds?
I'm jealous about that workshop purchase! Make us proud by wrecking games with that card!
It's easy to "test" Urza's Incubator without playing it by just measuring how much Eye of Ugin does in your games. For now it doesn't seem like an inclusion (yet). We'll see what the future brings. Who knows, maybe Emrakul Cthulu is lurking over Innistrad and we'll have eldrazi in Innistrad! (one can hope)
These are the ones on my watchlist as well.
I have a feeling Terrain Generator will pull it's weight more than previously assumed. All depending on the amount of Wastes, ofcourse.
So I've done a decent amount of testing with new Kozilek as the general and old Kozi in the 99. The counterspell ability is usually enough to protect him from one spell, sometimes two. It's effective in stopping others from going off too. Menace has done a lot more work than I thought it would. I've won games with general damage because they can't block him. The biggest boon has been the fill to 7 cards. I've drawn ~6 cards with him on an average cast. I've had numerous times of 7 and 5, with one case so far of 3. The sheer card advantage has been ridiculous and can't be easily dealt with.
I've also done a little testing with Null Brooch and it's been effective as a counter to control decks, though I haven't done too many games with it. It did empty my hand for a 7 card draw from new Kozi.
I'll be adding some more new stuff this week and will playtest more, but I'm loving new Kozi and my playgroup both loves and hates him. Love because he's so good, and hate for the very same reason. Keep testing everyone! And here's hoping for more insane support for our colorless brethren!
Great report,
Did you add a % of more rocks to the deck to compensate? It seems that new-kozilek would thrive more with a small addition of extra rocks to truly capitalize on it's ability to draw 7.
What personally holds me back is that we would not be able to draw cards when we're already at a full hand. How has the experience been in that case?
I'm (probably) only going to test New-Kozi post-release so whoever does test him, be sure to provide more playtesting experiences
Hey! Long time follower, first time poster. I'm a Kozzy 1.0 player who had modeled a lot of his deckbuilding off of the concepts you all suggest in this thread (specifically, the first page and the recent overhaul that hasn't quite made it to the front yet).
The potency is pretty real. I've been playing with restraints, opting out of Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith, and Metalworker as well as the all-important clock of omens. The deck still fights like a monster, even in what I would consider to be a suboptimized form without the full utility and mana suite that puts it over the top. This is changing now that my meta is hardening up (just ordered my metalworker and friends).
For those of you discussing 2 mana accelerants, I believe Mind Stone is generally superior to most of what has been suggested, and it still is debatable. In a build without Dark Depths, I see Chromatic Lantern as almost worse than Mind Stone, given that it affects only the unobtainable Tabernacle and (the much more attainable) Eye of Ugin.
I have a few questions:
Why no Dark Depths? Vesuva and Thespian Stage occasionally turn it into another lightning speed murder machine, for no mana. I appreciate the high premium this deck places on land drops and mana production, but I feel like I would slot in Dark Depths as utility murder over Ashnod's Altar when I very frequently do not have chumps to eat.
At what point in the meta do you sacrifice efficiency for hate cards? What is the most effective way to counteract Gaddock Teeg hatebear lockdowns? Pray? I'm speaking to cards alluded to on the front page, such as Stony Silence and its friends. When do Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker come into play?
I'd like to ask the users who were debating it: why is Alhammarret's Archive not a win more card? The odds of "draw 4" (or variable, with Koz 2.0) whiffing is very low. Even if it did whiff, and your Koz is removed from the battlefield, the cards you did get almost certainly enable another cast. If they don't, they put you in a political position of great power--not an immediate threat, drawing enemy fire, but capable of becoming one again before anyone realizes what happened. People discount Draw 4. Nobody discounts Draw 8, which does not, in my opinion, accelerate this deck's endgame. I'm sure there are scenarios where drawing 8 is superior, and the doctrine of pure card advantage is all about getting as many cards into your hand as possible, but I think playing Ham Archive discounts the Philosophy of Fire--killing your opponent is the best card advantage there is, and I think spending 5 mana in a way that does not directly move your deck toward accomplishing this is wasteful.
Wastes: Worth playing to counteract Wave of Vitriol and so Solemn Simulacrum / Burnished Hart can improve our game, or are the nonbasics too critical to squander? What other cards interact with basics in colorless that might be of use to the build? I'm not keen on Terrain Generator.
What activated abilities are you using your Rings of Brighthearth on? When is it most effective? I'm wondering if I should slot one in or not.
Lastly, is Soul of New Phyrexia relevant enough to include? The indestructibility seems interesting, as it negates common blowouts like Vandalblast, but the issue of slowdown like in the case of Ham Archive is very real.
And welcome to you too!
Well, welcome to posting that is. Good to see more and more people theorycrafting, it really helps this deck grow!
@Dark Depths, I have a Dark Depths in my collection but cannot suggest it's addition to this deck. In most cases our finishers will be stronger than the one Dark Depths can provide.
As well as it's un-ability to tap for mana without Urborg/Lantern, making it a possibility that it slows us down instead of accelerating us. Vesuva will not trigger Dark Depths, we would solely rely on Thespian's Stage to combo with it. And the odds of getting these are quite low as it's not near what we're trying to achieve with this deck's gameplan, and as such, not worthy to tutor for.
Ashnod's Altar is mainly for eating up Kozilek and recasting Kozilek. (with or without infinite mana, this card holds it's own.)
I like Mind Stone as well, it's just always been the rock that doesn't make it. Personally favor Chromatic Lantern highly above Mind Stone due to it's synergy with Maze, Eye of Ugin, Temple false God, Ancient Tomb,..
The hate cards would be more of a -figure it out by testing- scenario. I can't tell you to "run X" when in reality I only know a glimpse of the hate your playgroup is using to stop you.
However, here's some suggestions:
If Stony Silence is the main problem, I'd definitely look into slotting as much removal for it as possible, and remove other defensive cards such as Darksteel Forge.
If Gaddock Teeg is the problem, try Brittle Effigy. Even Oblivion Stone is worthy of testing here.
I only have a small amount of games in the tank so far but it's been about two to three wastes once lens hits.
The amount of wastes is a mix between budget reasons and the fact that I like the idea of making my kozilek deck being able to swap into a memnarch or bosh list pending on my mood. I plan on having a set list of cards I just swap in and out pending on memnarch or bosh that way I can play red, blue, or straight colorless. And the wastes just become basics of islands or mountains. Couldn't decide between the three options so I figured I'd eventually try and have all three lol. But for now I wanted straight colorless. I got to say though that this deck has already quickly become my favorite edh deck and I have a feeling I'll be selling of cards from other decks to make kozilek real. It's currently proxied in a budget version (just bought a house so money is tight)
@Juwdah- Thank you for your suggestions! I may possibly ignore your advice and play Dark Depths anyway, because I'm kind of tacky and like drawing from colorless threats across Magic's history. Plus, I mean, it's just so flavorful. But my opinion on Chromatic Lantern and Ashnod has shifted. I need more time in the pilot's seat.
Have you played against Spike Edric with this list, or any of the other borderline-broken EDH matchups that Koz might have to face?
Great report,
Did you add a % of more rocks to the deck to compensate? It seems that new-kozilek would thrive more with a small addition of extra rocks to truly capitalize on it's ability to draw 7.
What personally holds me back is that we would not be able to draw cards when we're already at a full hand. How has the experience been in that case?
I'm (probably) only going to test New-Kozi post-release so whoever does test him, be sure to provide more playtesting experiences
Not really. I only added Thought Vessel and still run the normal compliment of usual mana rocks, minus Mana Crypt. I've just been finding that I empty my hand fairly often right before I cast him, giving me more cards than old Kozi. And having a full hand isn't a bad thing. If new-Kozi gets removed, you're still loaded with a mitt full of cards to do something with next turn. The other big bonus is if there's a board wipe and your hand isn't loaded with bad cards (which is a rarity in most cases), you can come right back by dumping your new hand then casting Kozi the following turn. In the games in which I've casted him multiple times, the lowest I've drawn was 4. The one case of drawing 3 was when I was stuck with a hand full of land from bad draws prior to casting him. I do see a potential issue of people over-extending to empty their hand to draw more cards, but I find that for the first cast of either Kozi, your hand is gonna be near empty, giving the edge to new-K.
I'll keep this thread apprised of any new developments and will have to work on a detailed workup for an overhaul when OGW comes out. Thanks Juwdah.
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Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion Omnath, Locus of Mana Rhys the Exiled (Elves) Progenitus (Planeswalkers) Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks) Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord Kaalia the Vast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general) Roon of the Hidden Realm
I love portal. It plus ugins nexus and a sac outlet equals infinite turns which I'm a sucker for. Otherwise I'll exile just about anything for it. The deck is full of so many goodies that with all the draw the deck can do, I don't see it missing too much.
What do people think of Prototype Portal? It seems like it would be able to do alot of good things in the deck, simply churning out Sol Rings and Blightsteel Collossi is pretty great. . Kozi isn't a deck that lacks for mana to activate it most of the time, and any removal used on the Portal could have just been pointed at whatever card the portal exiled.
Tested and proven worthless garbage.
Ofcourse, you can test it yourself if you want to form your own opinion on the matter. I think it's already been discussed ..somewhere.. in this thread.
So I recently bought my way into a very underpowered version of this deck (No mox, Crypt, or other such cards yet), and man, I love this.
It just kinda vomits itself onto the board once you get going. And Annihilating someone for 20 permanents with Kozilek, Clock of Omens, and Strionic Resonator just feels amazing.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Been following this thread for a while and recently built a colorless deck (been switching commanders from Kozilek to Ulamog 2.0 for testing purposes) and I'm enjoying it. OotG has really perked me up and I think Kozi 2.0 will end up being my new commander. Urza's Incubator has been a nice card for me, but I likely run a few more Eldrazi than your list. Another card I recently included and quite enjoy is [/c]Psychosis Crawler[/c]. It can certainly be a dead drop if you're out of cards, but it isn't too bad to have in play and drop Kozilek.
As for the Wastes, I'm pondering switching to Waste cards (my land base isn't anything special) to utilize Extraplanar Lens and maybe Walker of the Wastes could find a spot.
I also like Spacial Contortion as another removal choice. It can get rid of Gaddock Teeg at instant speed to allow you to dump any cards you may need/want on your next turn.
Thanks for the deck ideas, really helped me put the deck into action.
Tested and proven worthless garbage.
Ofcourse, you can test it yourself if you want to form your own opinion on the matter. I think it's already been discussed ..somewhere.. in this thread.
Searching back, you dismiss it as very disapointing when you tried it, but don't really explain why. Is 1 point of card disadvantage too much? The inital mana requirements? The threat generation?
When I tried it I either had to imprint something I didn't really care about (mana rocks when I was WAY ahead on mana) or it'd get blown up before I could finish putting the imprint card underneath it.
If you can live the dream and pump out a Blightsteel Colossusp that'd be awesome. It'd also be the first time that ever worked. And it won't work very often after that.
Anyone seen matter reshaper in spoiled section? Looks pretty cool. Two us new colorless mana so 3cmc. When he dies u put top card in play if it's 3cmc or less, otherwise draw it.
Anyone seen matter reshaper in spoiled section? Looks pretty cool. Two us new colorless mana so 3cmc. When he dies u put top card in play if it's 3cmc or less, otherwise draw it.
Seems cool but doubt it will make the list.
Too unreliable and whiffy.
Anyone seen matter reshaper in spoiled section? Looks pretty cool. Two us new colorless mana so 3cmc. When he dies u put top card in play if it's 3cmc or less, otherwise draw it.
Seems cool but doubt it will make the list.
Too unreliable and whiffy.
I'm considering it for my (more budgety) list. It hits 60% of it currently.
I'm also running more creatures than usual. It might be better to cut it for a mana rock, but I want to test it for sure.
Hey all! Quick little update. Of the many games I played this weekend, I had one in particular of interest for here. I've been still using new Kozi as my general and had cast him twice already in the game, both getting >4 cards. The third time I cast him, I got 4 cards exactly. But this point is where his card draw ability failed compared to old Kozi's. I had enough mana in my pool using Doubling Cube shenanigans, along with Krark-Clan Ironworks and Mycosynth Lattice, to sac and recast him over and over. I got stuck with 6 cards in my hand for a while and was only drawing 1 card a cast. This is obviously a problem. I won the game since I was able to eventually draw into Staff of Domination to draw out my deck, but the lack of cards after I was able to loop-cast him made things a bit scary.
This though is one instance of many games I've used New Kozi and had his draw effect be less effective than old Kozi. It's something to be concerned about but not enough to get all up in arms and dump New Kozi to the side.
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Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion Omnath, Locus of Mana Rhys the Exiled (Elves) Progenitus (Planeswalkers) Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks) Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord Kaalia the Vast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general) Roon of the Hidden Realm
I built the deck according to the decklist on page 64 and I find it really strong, but I still have one question:
Would Erratic Portal be good in the deck? Since we are adding a couple more creatures, it has more targets on our side of the field, and it would let us draw a lot more cards out of Kozilek... It could also be some good removal tech against a tapped opponent... What do you think?
With the Spawnsire I would put a lot of Eldrazi, so it could be another win con, overwhelming the opponent with eldrazis.
The Ring however would allow to put some more situational artifacts such as combo pieces and others. A card I would put in would be Goblin Cannon for example to have something to do with infinite mana. It is a combo piece, but I would not like to draw it in a game.
Regarding the question: I am running 6 wastes with Solemn and Burnished Hart. I am still waiting to play a few games to determine if it is too slow or not.
Wayfarer's Bauble
Burnished Hart
Solemn Simulacrum
Terrain Generator
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I've also done a little testing with Null Brooch and it's been effective as a counter to control decks, though I haven't done too many games with it. It did empty my hand for a 7 card draw from new Kozi.
I'll be adding some more new stuff this week and will playtest more, but I'm loving new Kozi and my playgroup both loves and hates him. Love because he's so good, and hate for the very same reason. Keep testing everyone! And here's hoping for more insane support for our colorless brethren!
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rhys the Exiled (Elves)
Progenitus (Planeswalkers)
Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks)
Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord
Kaalia the Vast
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general)
Roon of the Hidden Realm
The potency is pretty real. I've been playing with restraints, opting out of Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith, and Metalworker as well as the all-important clock of omens. The deck still fights like a monster, even in what I would consider to be a suboptimized form without the full utility and mana suite that puts it over the top. This is changing now that my meta is hardening up (just ordered my metalworker and friends).
For those of you discussing 2 mana accelerants, I believe Mind Stone is generally superior to most of what has been suggested, and it still is debatable. In a build without Dark Depths, I see Chromatic Lantern as almost worse than Mind Stone, given that it affects only the unobtainable Tabernacle and (the much more attainable) Eye of Ugin.
I have a few questions:
Why no Dark Depths? Vesuva and Thespian Stage occasionally turn it into another lightning speed murder machine, for no mana. I appreciate the high premium this deck places on land drops and mana production, but I feel like I would slot in Dark Depths as utility murder over Ashnod's Altar when I very frequently do not have chumps to eat.
At what point in the meta do you sacrifice efficiency for hate cards? What is the most effective way to counteract Gaddock Teeg hatebear lockdowns? Pray? I'm speaking to cards alluded to on the front page, such as Stony Silence and its friends. When do Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker come into play?
I'd like to ask the users who were debating it: why is Alhammarret's Archive not a win more card? The odds of "draw 4" (or variable, with Koz 2.0) whiffing is very low. Even if it did whiff, and your Koz is removed from the battlefield, the cards you did get almost certainly enable another cast. If they don't, they put you in a political position of great power--not an immediate threat, drawing enemy fire, but capable of becoming one again before anyone realizes what happened. People discount Draw 4. Nobody discounts Draw 8, which does not, in my opinion, accelerate this deck's endgame. I'm sure there are scenarios where drawing 8 is superior, and the doctrine of pure card advantage is all about getting as many cards into your hand as possible, but I think playing Ham Archive discounts the Philosophy of Fire--killing your opponent is the best card advantage there is, and I think spending 5 mana in a way that does not directly move your deck toward accomplishing this is wasteful.
Wastes: Worth playing to counteract Wave of Vitriol and so Solemn Simulacrum / Burnished Hart can improve our game, or are the nonbasics too critical to squander? What other cards interact with basics in colorless that might be of use to the build? I'm not keen on Terrain Generator.
What activated abilities are you using your Rings of Brighthearth on? When is it most effective? I'm wondering if I should slot one in or not.
Lastly, is Soul of New Phyrexia relevant enough to include? The indestructibility seems interesting, as it negates common blowouts like Vandalblast, but the issue of slowdown like in the case of Ham Archive is very real.
Mind Stone - I'm actually playing and enjoying it right now, although I might be taking it out once OGW comes out.
Chromatic Lantern - Along with Urborg, I like this card perhaps more than I should. It's been relevant with Eye of Ugin, Maze of Ith, Ancient Tomb (If you want to tap for 1 mana) Temple of the False God (don't have 5 lands) and Mishra's Workshop (Just got this card a few days ago. Fantastic on it's own, but sometimes nice to tap to cast your general!) I don't own Tabernacle right now, but I'm planning on acquiring it eventually; even know someone who might trade theirs.
Dark Depths - Don't own it, haven't playtested it, but could be fun. My only fear is that the number of times you actually get Marit Lage will be rare, and in the meantime you have a dead card. (Unless you have Urborg/Chromatic Lantern on the field) And it's not like the deck is lacking finishers.
Ashnod's Altar - While this can combine well with things like Myr Battlesphere, I've usually used it as a sac outlet for Kozilek so I can draw more cards. YMMV in your deck & playgroup.
Gaddock Teeg - Please let me know if you come up with some good plans. Might just be "Play more creatures" like Endbringer, New Kozilek, Solemn Simulacrum... But yeah this matchup has been demoralizing at times.
Alhammerret's Archive - I really want to like this card, and perhaps I would if I playtested it, but it doesn't *seem* to be filling a niche this deck needs. In your opening hand, would you rather see this or Sisay's Ring? I'd rather see the ring, because anything that helps me cast Kozilek a turn faster is fantastic. Also, Judwah and I are not running Reliquary or Thought Vessel (as far as I know) So we're pretty guaranteed to be discarding extra cards (which granted, is still good) I just feel that casting Kozilek is already such a blowout in your favor, that it really is unnecessary to double the card draw. It does also have synergy with Sensei's Divining Top, Hedron Archive, Mind Stone and other good cards, so it's by no means bad. But 5 mana+ utility cards with no immediate impact on their own have been hitting the chopping block lately.
Wastes - I'm guessing the correct number is going to be 3 or something just so you can use Solemn Simulacrum and not cry when Path to Exile/Ghost Quarter/ and to a lesser extent, Waves of Vitriol hits. But I'd like to a playtest a budget version of the deck with like 30 Wastes and see all the ways we can take advantage of basics.
Rings of Brighthearth - While the loss of Basalt Monolith and to a lesser extent, Grim Monolith diminishes it's usefullness for combos, it's still a powerhouse card for all lands with an activated ability, planeswalkers, and many artifacts, like any of the card draw ones. This fills an Alhammerret's Archive-ish role and does so much more in many cases.
Soul of New Phyrexia - I'm not an especially good person to ask on this one, since I don't even run Darksteel Forge; not big on 9 mana spells that don't do anything. But I don't play in the same game store very often; I've been touring 4 different game stores since I moved to Washington and even go back to my old game store in Oregon on occasion, so I haven't really fallen into consistent playgroups that specifically run hate against my deck. I might see the appeal of Darksteel Forge and Soul a lot more if I did have one playgroup.
EDIT: But I have playtested Soul of New Phyrexia before and it's alright as a 6/6 trample creature with an occasionally relevant protection ability; but don't count on it. Krosan Grip gets around this. People will force you to use this ability only to add on to the stack an even more devastating spell and you won't have the mana open to stop that one. For absolute defense, stick with Darksteel Forge.
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Loss of Basalt/Grim Monolith is about to be rectified in my decklist; I'll consider adding Rings as my budget allows. I'm seeing more of the utility for Chromatic Lantern now that you're pointing out its broader range of targets.
Ran into a bit of difficulty with the classic Spike Edric list. Do you think the addition of the higher tier mana rocks will make this matchup more bearable? What's our angle against infinity turns decks, outpace and beat down?
Yes!
I actually thought they'd surprise us with the 2015 commander set when some people said there'd be 6 decks. Unfortunately it was just people misreading stuff
It would really open up more strategies for colorless if they do so, though.
Welcome to Kozilek!
Thanks for the kind words, nice to see that you're fully enjoying yourself and going all in on the deckbuilding!
On Terminal Moraine: I don't see it being useful over other utility lands, sure, the Crucible interaction is there. But their combined strenght isn't great enough to include this over lands that provide more utility on their own. It is budget friendly though, and seems like a cool tech when it works.
Maybe some Karn decks will play this along with Evolving Wilds?
I'm jealous about that workshop purchase! Make us proud by wrecking games with that card!
It's easy to "test" Urza's Incubator without playing it by just measuring how much Eye of Ugin does in your games. For now it doesn't seem like an inclusion (yet). We'll see what the future brings. Who knows, maybe Emrakul Cthulu is lurking over Innistrad and we'll have eldrazi in Innistrad! (one can hope)
These are the ones on my watchlist as well.
I have a feeling Terrain Generator will pull it's weight more than previously assumed. All depending on the amount of Wastes, ofcourse.
Great report,
Did you add a % of more rocks to the deck to compensate? It seems that new-kozilek would thrive more with a small addition of extra rocks to truly capitalize on it's ability to draw 7.
What personally holds me back is that we would not be able to draw cards when we're already at a full hand. How has the experience been in that case?
I'm (probably) only going to test New-Kozi post-release so whoever does test him, be sure to provide more playtesting experiences
And welcome to you too!
Well, welcome to posting that is. Good to see more and more people theorycrafting, it really helps this deck grow!
@Dark Depths, I have a Dark Depths in my collection but cannot suggest it's addition to this deck. In most cases our finishers will be stronger than the one Dark Depths can provide.
As well as it's un-ability to tap for mana without Urborg/Lantern, making it a possibility that it slows us down instead of accelerating us.
Vesuva will not trigger Dark Depths, we would solely rely on Thespian's Stage to combo with it. And the odds of getting these are quite low as it's not near what we're trying to achieve with this deck's gameplan, and as such, not worthy to tutor for.
Ashnod's Altar is mainly for eating up Kozilek and recasting Kozilek. (with or without infinite mana, this card holds it's own.)
I like Mind Stone as well, it's just always been the rock that doesn't make it. Personally favor Chromatic Lantern highly above Mind Stone due to it's synergy with Maze, Eye of Ugin, Temple false God, Ancient Tomb,..
The hate cards would be more of a -figure it out by testing- scenario. I can't tell you to "run X" when in reality I only know a glimpse of the hate your playgroup is using to stop you.
However, here's some suggestions:
If Stony Silence is the main problem, I'd definitely look into slotting as much removal for it as possible, and remove other defensive cards such as Darksteel Forge.
If Gaddock Teeg is the problem, try Brittle Effigy. Even Oblivion Stone is worthy of testing here.
Any reason for only including 16 wastes?
What's the average amount of wastes that tap double when Extraplanar hits the field?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
The amount of wastes is a mix between budget reasons and the fact that I like the idea of making my kozilek deck being able to swap into a memnarch or bosh list pending on my mood. I plan on having a set list of cards I just swap in and out pending on memnarch or bosh that way I can play red, blue, or straight colorless. And the wastes just become basics of islands or mountains. Couldn't decide between the three options so I figured I'd eventually try and have all three lol. But for now I wanted straight colorless. I got to say though that this deck has already quickly become my favorite edh deck and I have a feeling I'll be selling of cards from other decks to make kozilek real. It's currently proxied in a budget version (just bought a house so money is tight)
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Have you played against Spike Edric with this list, or any of the other borderline-broken EDH matchups that Koz might have to face?
Not really. I only added Thought Vessel and still run the normal compliment of usual mana rocks, minus Mana Crypt. I've just been finding that I empty my hand fairly often right before I cast him, giving me more cards than old Kozi. And having a full hand isn't a bad thing. If new-Kozi gets removed, you're still loaded with a mitt full of cards to do something with next turn. The other big bonus is if there's a board wipe and your hand isn't loaded with bad cards (which is a rarity in most cases), you can come right back by dumping your new hand then casting Kozi the following turn. In the games in which I've casted him multiple times, the lowest I've drawn was 4. The one case of drawing 3 was when I was stuck with a hand full of land from bad draws prior to casting him. I do see a potential issue of people over-extending to empty their hand to draw more cards, but I find that for the first cast of either Kozi, your hand is gonna be near empty, giving the edge to new-K.
I'll keep this thread apprised of any new developments and will have to work on a detailed workup for an overhaul when OGW comes out. Thanks Juwdah.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rhys the Exiled (Elves)
Progenitus (Planeswalkers)
Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks)
Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord
Kaalia the Vast
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general)
Roon of the Hidden Realm
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Yes, but I only play multiplayer games, are you referring to 1v1 scenarios?
Tested and proven worthless garbage.
Ofcourse, you can test it yourself if you want to form your own opinion on the matter. I think it's already been discussed ..somewhere.. in this thread.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
It just kinda vomits itself onto the board once you get going. And Annihilating someone for 20 permanents with Kozilek, Clock of Omens, and Strionic Resonator just feels amazing.
As for the Wastes, I'm pondering switching to Waste cards (my land base isn't anything special) to utilize Extraplanar Lens and maybe Walker of the Wastes could find a spot.
I also like Spacial Contortion as another removal choice. It can get rid of Gaddock Teeg at instant speed to allow you to dump any cards you may need/want on your next turn.
Thanks for the deck ideas, really helped me put the deck into action.
When I tried it I either had to imprint something I didn't really care about (mana rocks when I was WAY ahead on mana) or it'd get blown up before I could finish putting the imprint card underneath it.
If you can live the dream and pump out a Blightsteel Colossusp that'd be awesome. It'd also be the first time that ever worked. And it won't work very often after that.
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Seems cool but doubt it will make the list.
Too unreliable and whiffy.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
It's on page 64 I believe.
[EDH Non-Primers] Newzuri | Breya
I'm considering it for my (more budgety) list. It hits 60% of it currently.
I'm also running more creatures than usual. It might be better to cut it for a mana rock, but I want to test it for sure.
This though is one instance of many games I've used New Kozi and had his draw effect be less effective than old Kozi. It's something to be concerned about but not enough to get all up in arms and dump New Kozi to the side.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rhys the Exiled (Elves)
Progenitus (Planeswalkers)
Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks)
Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord
Kaalia the Vast
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general)
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Would Erratic Portal be good in the deck? Since we are adding a couple more creatures, it has more targets on our side of the field, and it would let us draw a lot more cards out of Kozilek... It could also be some good removal tech against a tapped opponent... What do you think?
What about a sideboard (or wishboard)? Generally in commander it is a 10 cards sideboard, where allowed.
We could use cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog or Ring of Ma'ruf to be able to get some cards out of the blue.
With the Spawnsire I would put a lot of Eldrazi, so it could be another win con, overwhelming the opponent with eldrazis.
The Ring however would allow to put some more situational artifacts such as combo pieces and others. A card I would put in would be Goblin Cannon for example to have something to do with infinite mana. It is a combo piece, but I would not like to draw it in a game.
Also, why no Staff of Domination? Or at least in a sideboard?