What do you think of Scroll Rack? It's a crazy card but i was having problem with cutting things from my deck.
I recently got a Tangle Wire which i wanted to try out and thought that Scroll Rack hasn't done much. There aren't too many shuffle effects in my deck atm.
Well, it did let me dig about 8 cards to find my Homeward Path when a friend stole Blightsteel Colossus from me with Bribery.
Do you guys think it was an ok cut?
Been also thinking about getting a Lion's Eye Diamond to make the deck more explosive, and as i said in another comment im trying to get a Mox Opal as well.
Does anyone here play a more voltron build of Kozilek? I'd rather just smash face than durdle around with my artifacts. Obviously I'm still going to run a lot of them, but I'd rather have equipments and the likes over stax cards and combo cards. I've played a Sydri stax/combo list for a while and my playgroup will kill me if I bring out something similar again.
Does anyone here play a more voltron build of Kozilek? I'd rather just smash face than durdle around with my artifacts. Obviously I'm still going to run a lot of them, but I'd rather have equipments and the likes over stax cards and combo cards. I've played a Sydri stax/combo list for a while and my playgroup will kill me if I bring out something similar again.
I really do not like Sydri or Equipments. The only equipment i run is Batterskull I do however try to ramp to kozilek as soon as i can since, when i've reached that goal you can play the stuff you've drawn from his trigger.
I don't have much stax really, i got 2 cards that are straight up stax, but kozilek is kind of a monster with his annihilator, that's a stax ability in itself.
Has anyone taken another look at Alhammarret's Archive? Combos really great with Sensei's Divining Top for 1 mana draw card.
Also pretty well with Mind's Eye And of course Kozilek, Butcher of Truth Cast ability. I realize we have zero card draw problems.
Just wondering if anyone actually put any more thought into it.
What do you think of Scroll Rack? It's a crazy card but i was having problem with cutting things from my deck.
I recently got a Tangle Wire which i wanted to try out and thought that Scroll Rack hasn't done much. There aren't too many shuffle effects in my deck atm.
Well, it did let me dig about 8 cards to find my Homeward Path when a friend stole Blightsteel Colossus from me with Bribery.
Do you guys think it was an ok cut?
Been also thinking about getting a Lion's Eye Diamond to make the deck more explosive, and as i said in another comment im trying to get a Mox Opal as well.
Does anyone here play a more voltron build of Kozilek? I'd rather just smash face than durdle around with my artifacts. Obviously I'm still going to run a lot of them, but I'd rather have equipments and the likes over stax cards and combo cards. I've played a Sydri stax/combo list for a while and my playgroup will kill me if I bring out something similar again.
There's some around, but we could also easily brainstorm towards one. Everyone here seems to like deckbuilding and theorycrafting
Do note that, stax does benefit a Voltron gameplan. (by quite a bit)
Are they gonna remove annihilator and make eldrazis ability an millability but it instead exiles your opponents library? This one has the "Cast" trigger so even if your opponent counters it the cards will get exiled.
Still it's an inevitable end. eventually...
Oh and i love the part where the cards check for ALL the lands that are exiled, so even cards that got exiled from Rest in Peace or the likes are available for you
Heck, if they fetch and then Delve them away, you get the fetchlands (not like it'll do much for us unless there's a Blood Moon or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out...)
First time i Tried out Lion's Eye Diamond in the deck and i was able to lockdown the game + Casting Kozilek aaand i won that game pretty convincingly. The only card i discarded to LED was Blightsteel Colossus( OH NO, how horrifying =P ). Tangle Wire is crazy good. Alhammarret's Archive has been performing really well, definetly a card in the deck.
I've managed to get a Static Orb but i think i'll wait for the Winter Orb. Haven't figured out which stax pieces i'll try out later and what to cut.
I'm actually unsure about that "nonbo" Mox Diamond add, it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway. So you'll actually lose CA,.. It's better to just use an utility land.
I'm actually unsure about that "nonbo" Mox Diamond add, it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway. So you'll actually lose CA,.. It's better to just use an utility land.
That, plus the fact that it can be a dead card.
Im gonna trade for a Mox Opal, that can take Mox Diamonds place and it won't cost me a land.
I wanted to contrast Juwdah's list with Runnin's and hopefully get feedback from the two creators. I may have missed a card or two so bear with me. Runnin also has not updated his list to reflect the addition of Lion's Eye Diamond.
There was some variance in the mana base. Both are playing land's that are way out of the average player's budget. Feel free to highlight important differences.
I wanted their opinion which cards are essential and which are conditional based on meta.
I wanted to contrast Juwdah's list with Runnin's and hopefully get feedback from the two creators. I may have missed a card or two so bear with me. Runnin also has not updated his list to reflect the addition of Lion's Eye Diamond.
There was some variance in the mana base. Both are playing land's that are way out of the average player's budget. Feel free to highlight important differences.
I wanted their opinion which cards are essential and which are conditional based on meta.
I guess i can try to write up an answer for you.
Im still quite new when it comes to playing Kozilek since i've been mainly a Karn, Silver Golem player before and that build is quite different, its more combo heavy than stax/ramp heavy like most Kozilek lists seems to be.
Same with the manarocks im still not really sure of which to run and im changing up the deck almost every week to see what fits and what doesen't fit.
I've added Lion's Eye Diamond to the list and i did cut Unstable Obelisk for the time being.
What i think about my cardchoices you highlighted:
Alhammarret's Archive is a card i've tried out a couple of times now and it's been really strong, getting double value from kozileks drawtrigger, getting to draw 2 cards from Sensei's Divining Top/ Trading Postetc, seems pretty good eh?
Batterskull is a recurrable creature + equipment that i really like, i hate most equipments but i feel like Batterskull fits in the deck, sometimes you need that lifegain.
Cloud Key, many cards i got is from my old Karn deck, cloudkey could be slow but sometimes its crazy how much mana you get from one card. It kinda sucks it doesen't make Kozilek cheaper but it does make all of our artifacts cheaper. I also run Helm of Awakening when i really want to go off, throwing out all of my mana rocks to play Kozilek and his friends:)
Forcefield, alot of ppl are running Blightsteel Colossus, hexproofed and shrouded creatues in my meta so i wanted an answer for them. Making Uril the Miststalker hit for 1 instead of 32+ is pretty good
Same thing against huge token armies, i've prevented 1000s of damage with ForceField.
I would say the card is definetly a meta call and not something i would just get immediatly since it's quite pricey.
Mox Diamond, Like i've said in this thread lately it's a card i've wanted to try in the deck but i realised its too much of a 2 for 1. Not only that, like Juwdah said :" it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway".
So im planning to switch it for Mox Opal instead.
Staff of Domination is a card i've wanted to play with for quite some time and suddenly it got unbanned with Metalworker! I love the foil version of this card so its in for now, it works pretty good with Alhammarret's Archive.
Tawnos's Coffin is a card i just love rules wise and it was MVP in Karn for the spotremoval it offered. In Karn with the combos he can pull off you could hide all of your Artifacts in the Coffin, let the coffin get destroyed and save your board, it could even remove certain annoying permanents in conjunction with Karn + Liquimetal Coating.
Unstable Obelisk, some say its slow but i feel like its a nice option to have, to instantly nuke a permanent. Not only that, once you've achieved a certain amount of mana it's a great removal, it won't really be dead lategame, sucks that it costs 3 and not 2 but i think it would be too good at 2.
Arcbound Reclaimeris here for the recursion he offers, but he could get switched out, i just love golems
Getting back certain cards can get you back into the game.
Copper Gnomes is even better now that i run Blightsteel Colossus, it does draw a bit of hate but it's kinda like a one sided show and tell. An uncounterable artifact straight into play, why not? Look at the cute gnomes as well :=)
Steel Hellkite is kind of a petcard, i play it in legacy and i played it in standard in all of my Artifact centered builds, it blows up stuff that has hexproof as well, and now with the new Tomb of the Spirit Dragon you can recurr it if need be. Turns into a wincon as well with mana available.
Wurmcoil Engine It can be quite dead later on since there's so many better bombs in other decks in this format but i mainly had him in for the lifelink + he comboes with Krark-Clan Ironworks+ Nim Deathmantle, an old combo in karn, but Wurmcoil is a card i played in standard and i still play it in modern. I just love the card.
I would say alot of my choices are because i really like them or having quite a bit of history with them Still haven't acquired the necessary stuff of the stax Package that Juwdah runs since the players in my meta can be quite cranky when it comes to stax strategies.
Regarding the lands: I don't think i can comment yet on it since Juwdah hasn't updated his list.
All in all im still trying to find stack off 99 cards that works well with Kozilek.
Some cards i can comment on that you highlighted from Juwdah's List:
Scroll Rack : I do have this card but im sort of still trying it out, it's amazing when it works, but i kinda felt i don't have enough shuffle effects in the the deck, maybe im just picky.
I will add it again later on i think, seems just too good.[card]
Loreseeker's Stone: It seems amazing Haven't tried it yet and i don't know what to cut for it.
Winter Orb, Trying to find a beta one for a decent price when i have the funds/cards for it!
Mirror Works, i have yet tried this card but it seems stupidly good in this build Just playing a Lion's Eye Diamond from a topdeck and copying it can be good.
Duplicant seems really strong and i can definetly see it taking up a slot in my deck, exiling an Akroma / Prophet is just soo satisfying. Especially if it exiles Hellkite Tyrant.
Mindslaver is a fun card and quite strong, i think i need this card but we'll see about it. Like i said about Arcbound Reclaimer, quite strong if i got the recursion for it
EDIT: Oh and i forgot to mention, because of how my meta reacted to this deck it was a bad beatdown deck, im still working on it:)
Thanks for the detailed response. I am brand new to Kozilek. Cloud Key, Alhammarret's Archive and Tawnos's Coffin from your list look the most promising. I have experience with the Coffin in a grindy Sharuum deck.
I expect Juwdah has tried out most if not all of your suggestions. He can aid us in separating the wheat from the chaff.
I wanted to contrast Juwdah's list with Runnin's and hopefully get feedback from the two creators. I may have missed a card or two so bear with me. Runnin also has not updated his list to reflect the addition of Lion's Eye Diamond.
There was some variance in the mana base. Both are playing land's that are way out of the average player's budget. Feel free to highlight important differences.
I wanted their opinion which cards are essential and which are conditional based on meta.
Im still quite new when it comes to playing Kozilek since i've been mainly a Karn, Silver Golem player before and that build is quite different, its more combo heavy than stax/ramp heavy like most Kozilek lists seems to be.
Same with the manarocks im still not really sure of which to run and im changing up the deck almost every week to see what fits and what doesen't fit.
I've added Lion's Eye Diamond to the list and i did cut Unstable Obelisk for the time being.
What i think about my cardchoices you highlighted:
Alhammarret's Archive is a card i've tried out a couple of times now and it's been really strong, getting double value from kozileks drawtrigger, getting to draw 2 cards from Sensei's Divining Top/ Trading Postetc, seems pretty good eh?
Batterskull is a recurrable creature + equipment that i really like, i hate most equipments but i feel like Batterskull fits in the deck, sometimes you need that lifegain.
Cloud Key, many cards i got is from my old Karn deck, cloudkey could be slow but sometimes its crazy how much mana you get from one card. It kinda sucks it doesen't make Kozilek cheaper but it does make all of our artifacts cheaper. I also run Helm of Awakening when i really want to go off, throwing out all of my mana rocks to play Kozilek and his friends:)
Forcefield, alot of ppl are running Blightsteel Colossus, hexproofed and shrouded creatues in my meta so i wanted an answer for them. Making Uril the Miststalker hit for 1 instead of 32+ is pretty good
Same thing against huge token armies, i've prevented 1000s of damage with ForceField.
I would say the card is definetly a meta call and not something i would just get immediatly since it's quite pricey.
Mox Diamond, Like i've said in this thread lately it's a card i've wanted to try in the deck but i realised its too much of a 2 for 1. Not only that, like Juwdah said :" it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway".
So im planning to switch it for Mox Opal instead.
Staff of Domination is a card i've wanted to play with for quite some time and suddenly it got unbanned with Metalworker! I love the foil version of this card so its in for now, it works pretty good with Alhammarret's Archive.
Tawnos's Coffin is a card i just love rules wise and it was MVP in Karn for the spotremoval it offered. In Karn with the combos he can pull off you could hide all of your Artifacts in the Coffin, let the coffin get destroyed and save your board, it could even remove certain annoying permanents in conjunction with Karn + Liquimetal Coating.
Unstable Obelisk, some say its slow but i feel like its a nice option to have, to instantly nuke a permanent. Not only that, once you've achieved a certain amount of mana it's a great removal, it won't really be dead lategame, sucks that it costs 3 and not 2 but i think it would be too good at 2.
Arcbound Reclaimeris here for the recursion he offers, but he could get switched out, i just love golems
Getting back certain cards can get you back into the game.
Copper Gnomes is even better now that i run Blightsteel Colossus, it does draw a bit of hate but it's kinda like a one sided show and tell. An uncounterable artifact straight into play, why not? Look at the cute gnomes as well :=)
Steel Hellkite is kind of a petcard, i play it in legacy and i played it in standard in all of my Artifact centered builds, it blows up stuff that has hexproof as well, and now with the new Tomb of the Spirit Dragon you can recurr it if need be. Turns into a wincon as well with mana available.
Wurmcoil Engine It can be quite dead later on since there's so many better bombs in other decks in this format but i mainly had him in for the lifelink + he comboes with Krark-Clan Ironworks+ Nim Deathmantle, an old combo in karn, but Wurmcoil is a card i played in standard and i still play it in modern. I just love the card.
I would say alot of my choices are because i really like them or having quite a bit of history with them Still haven't acquired the necessary stuff of the stax Package that Juwdah runs since the players in my meta can be quite cranky when it comes to stax strategies.
Regarding the lands: I don't think i can comment yet on it since Juwdah hasn't updated his list.
All in all im still trying to find stack off 99 cards that works well with Kozilek.
Some cards i can comment on that you highlighted from Juwdah's List:
Scroll Rack : I do have this card but im sort of still trying it out, it's amazing when it works, but i kinda felt i don't have enough shuffle effects in the the deck, maybe im just picky.
I will add it again later on i think, seems just too good.[card]
Loreseeker's Stone: It seems amazing Haven't tried it yet and i don't know what to cut for it.
Winter Orb, Trying to find a beta one for a decent price when i have the funds/cards for it!
Mirror Works, i have yet tried this card but it seems stupidly good in this build Just playing a Lion's Eye Diamond from a topdeck and copying it can be good.
Duplicant seems really strong and i can definetly see it taking up a slot in my deck, exiling an Akroma / Prophet is just soo satisfying. Especially if it exiles Hellkite Tyrant.
Mindslaver is a fun card and quite strong, i think i need this card but we'll see about it. Like i said about Arcbound Reclaimer, quite strong if i got the recursion for it
EDIT: Oh and i forgot to mention, because of how my meta reacted to this deck it was a bad beatdown deck, im still working on it:)
Hmm, On first sight I can see that Runnin's picks are aimed at a more build-up gameplan with beats. Whereas my experience with the deck is more of an all-in, I hardly believe in recursion anymore for this deck, so things like Arcbound Reclaimer are too much of a "Plan C" for me.
Batterskull: While it's a very strong card, I can't justifiy it in my list as it's very low on creatures and the ones I do run, or kozilek, don't need it. I do like it's lifelink for keeping the player alive long enough. Strong, but out of place on my list. Runnin is using more creatures as a beat-down plan though, so could be that it's strong enough to retain a spot in a deck like that.
Mox Diamond: My opinion on this card can be read two or three posts above this.
Staff of Domination: It's a great card, but it's just underwhelming in a deck like this. It's good with the occasional Metalworker though, and lots of people will run this card for it's reputation.
Tawnos's Coffin: Still unsure, not enough testing to have an opinion.
Unstable Obelisk: Haven't tested it yet, but it seems underwhelming in my eyes. I could ofcourse, be wrong.
Arcbound Reclaimer: I always found that it's good in theory, but underwhelming on the field. To top it off, it's a dead card often. Not my cup of tea.
Copper Gnomes: I don't see the reason for paying 6 mana for an artifact and lose CA when I can just play a ramp card. It even opens up more weak spots for the opponent to abuse.
Steel Hellkite: Underperforming lately, if it's still in the main decklist on page 1, it ain't going to be for long. Without other options available though, it's extra removal. Just, too slow for today's meta.
Wurmcoil Engine: Good card, just not good for the gameplan I'm aiming for. Could be better in Runnin's deck.
I think most cards can be explained with the text provided on page 1, however, I can explain the differences.
Ashnods, Sisay's Ring, etc are obviously extra ramp pieces as I'm going for a more all in strategy.
I wanted to contrast Juwdah's list with Runnin's and hopefully get feedback from the two creators. I may have missed a card or two so bear with me. Runnin also has not updated his list to reflect the addition of Lion's Eye Diamond.
There was some variance in the mana base. Both are playing land's that are way out of the average player's budget. Feel free to highlight important differences.
I wanted their opinion which cards are essential and which are conditional based on meta.
Im still quite new when it comes to playing Kozilek since i've been mainly a Karn, Silver Golem player before and that build is quite different, its more combo heavy than stax/ramp heavy like most Kozilek lists seems to be.
Same with the manarocks im still not really sure of which to run and im changing up the deck almost every week to see what fits and what doesen't fit.
I've added Lion's Eye Diamond to the list and i did cut Unstable Obelisk for the time being.
What i think about my cardchoices you highlighted:
Alhammarret's Archive is a card i've tried out a couple of times now and it's been really strong, getting double value from kozileks drawtrigger, getting to draw 2 cards from Sensei's Divining Top/ Trading Postetc, seems pretty good eh?
Batterskull is a recurrable creature + equipment that i really like, i hate most equipments but i feel like Batterskull fits in the deck, sometimes you need that lifegain.
Cloud Key, many cards i got is from my old Karn deck, cloudkey could be slow but sometimes its crazy how much mana you get from one card. It kinda sucks it doesen't make Kozilek cheaper but it does make all of our artifacts cheaper. I also run Helm of Awakening when i really want to go off, throwing out all of my mana rocks to play Kozilek and his friends:)
Forcefield, alot of ppl are running Blightsteel Colossus, hexproofed and shrouded creatues in my meta so i wanted an answer for them. Making Uril the Miststalker hit for 1 instead of 32+ is pretty good
Same thing against huge token armies, i've prevented 1000s of damage with ForceField.
I would say the card is definetly a meta call and not something i would just get immediatly since it's quite pricey.
Mox Diamond, Like i've said in this thread lately it's a card i've wanted to try in the deck but i realised its too much of a 2 for 1. Not only that, like Juwdah said :" it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway".
So im planning to switch it for Mox Opal instead.
Staff of Domination is a card i've wanted to play with for quite some time and suddenly it got unbanned with Metalworker! I love the foil version of this card so its in for now, it works pretty good with Alhammarret's Archive.
Tawnos's Coffin is a card i just love rules wise and it was MVP in Karn for the spotremoval it offered. In Karn with the combos he can pull off you could hide all of your Artifacts in the Coffin, let the coffin get destroyed and save your board, it could even remove certain annoying permanents in conjunction with Karn + Liquimetal Coating.
Unstable Obelisk, some say its slow but i feel like its a nice option to have, to instantly nuke a permanent. Not only that, once you've achieved a certain amount of mana it's a great removal, it won't really be dead lategame, sucks that it costs 3 and not 2 but i think it would be too good at 2.
Arcbound Reclaimeris here for the recursion he offers, but he could get switched out, i just love golems
Getting back certain cards can get you back into the game.
Copper Gnomes is even better now that i run Blightsteel Colossus, it does draw a bit of hate but it's kinda like a one sided show and tell. An uncounterable artifact straight into play, why not? Look at the cute gnomes as well :=)
Steel Hellkite is kind of a petcard, i play it in legacy and i played it in standard in all of my Artifact centered builds, it blows up stuff that has hexproof as well, and now with the new Tomb of the Spirit Dragon you can recurr it if need be. Turns into a wincon as well with mana available.
Wurmcoil Engine It can be quite dead later on since there's so many better bombs in other decks in this format but i mainly had him in for the lifelink + he comboes with Krark-Clan Ironworks+ Nim Deathmantle, an old combo in karn, but Wurmcoil is a card i played in standard and i still play it in modern. I just love the card.
I would say alot of my choices are because i really like them or having quite a bit of history with them Still haven't acquired the necessary stuff of the stax Package that Juwdah runs since the players in my meta can be quite cranky when it comes to stax strategies.
Regarding the lands: I don't think i can comment yet on it since Juwdah hasn't updated his list.
All in all im still trying to find stack off 99 cards that works well with Kozilek.
Some cards i can comment on that you highlighted from Juwdah's List:
Scroll Rack : I do have this card but im sort of still trying it out, it's amazing when it works, but i kinda felt i don't have enough shuffle effects in the the deck, maybe im just picky.
I will add it again later on i think, seems just too good.[card]
Loreseeker's Stone: It seems amazing Haven't tried it yet and i don't know what to cut for it.
Winter Orb, Trying to find a beta one for a decent price when i have the funds/cards for it!
Mirror Works, i have yet tried this card but it seems stupidly good in this build Just playing a Lion's Eye Diamond from a topdeck and copying it can be good.
Duplicant seems really strong and i can definetly see it taking up a slot in my deck, exiling an Akroma / Prophet is just soo satisfying. Especially if it exiles Hellkite Tyrant.
Mindslaver is a fun card and quite strong, i think i need this card but we'll see about it. Like i said about Arcbound Reclaimer, quite strong if i got the recursion for it
EDIT: Oh and i forgot to mention, because of how my meta reacted to this deck it was a bad beatdown deck, im still working on it:)
Hmm, On first sight I can see that Runnin's picks are aimed at a more build-up gameplan with beats. Whereas my experience with the deck is more of an all-in, I hardly believe in recursion anymore for this deck, so things like Arcbound Reclaimer are too much of a "Plan C" for me.
Batterskull: While it's a very strong card, I can't justifiy it in my list as it's very low on creatures and the ones I do run, or kozilek, don't need it. I do like it's lifelink for keeping the player alive long enough. Strong, but out of place on my list. Runnin is using more creatures as a beat-down plan though, so could be that it's strong enough to retain a spot in a deck like that.
Mox Diamond: My opinion on this card can be read two or three posts above this.
Staff of Domination: It's a great card, but it's just underwhelming in a deck like this. It's good with the occasional Metalworker though, and lots of people will run this card for it's reputation.
Tawnos's Coffin: Still unsure, not enough testing to have an opinion.
Unstable Obelisk: Haven't tested it yet, but it seems underwhelming in my eyes. I could ofcourse, be wrong.
Arcbound Reclaimer: I always found that it's good in theory, but underwhelming on the field. To top it off, it's a dead card often. Not my cup of tea.
Copper Gnomes: I don't see the reason for paying 6 mana for an artifact and lose CA when I can just play a ramp card. It even opens up more weak spots for the opponent to abuse.
Steel Hellkite: Underperforming lately, if it's still in the main decklist on page 1, it ain't going to be for long. Without other options available though, it's extra removal. Just, too slow for today's meta.
Wurmcoil Engine: Good card, just not good for the gameplan I'm aiming for. Could be better in Runnin's deck.
I think most cards can be explained with the text provided on page 1, however, I can explain the differences.
Ashnods, Sisay's Ring, etc are obviously extra ramp pieces as I'm going for a more all in strategy.
juwdah, I cannot sing the praises of tawnos's coffin enough. We played a 5 man that on turned into an epic 4v1 and the coffin single handedly was my MVP. I had unwinding clock out and was able to bounce Koz for protection and bounce another creature during every other players turn. It was soooo good. Someone played Jin-jitaxis and I coffin'don't it at end of their turn so they didn't get card draw. Untapped coffin durin next 3 players turns so they lost their hands and confined it again at end of my turn to save my hand. Later someone played Ixdris and I was able to save kozilek again. Cannot recommend it enough!
A quick thing about stax pieces. Flipping over Kozilek as your general many times creates a archenemy environment at tables that would more typically play good politics. Play the stax pieces. As the game degenerates into a 3v1 or worse it levels the field. If the game stays nice and casual it's a fine to keep them in your hand but save them and keep them close to hand as the table WILL turn on you. It always does and stax punishes them for their betrayal.
Juwdah, I have all the cards listed in your last update except Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale and Rashadan Port. What would you recommend I remove if I was determined to play Cloud Key and possibly Tawnos's Coffin? My guess would be one of the lesser mana rocks.
Thanks to you and Runnin for the response. That was exactly what I was hoping to get.
Juwdah, I have all the cards listed in your last update except Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale and Rashadan Port. What would you recommend I remove if I was determined to play Cloud Key and possibly Tawnos's Coffin? My guess would be one of the lesser mana rocks.
Thanks to you and Runnin for the response. That was exactly what I was hoping to get.
I have tried semblance anvil and cloudkey and have found the anvil to be more effective. I have not tried lorekeeper stone let us know if you get any mileage out of it.
I have glacial cravasse in place of tabernacle. I am rarely upset to see it in my hand as it can hold off an entire table until someone finds a way to get rid of it or when you decide you have enough board presence to let it go and smash face. Just wished it tapped for mana.
Are there any colorless land tutors that we could add?
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What do you think of Scroll Rack? It's a crazy card but i was having problem with cutting things from my deck.
I recently got a Tangle Wire which i wanted to try out and thought that Scroll Rack hasn't done much. There aren't too many shuffle effects in my deck atm.
Well, it did let me dig about 8 cards to find my Homeward Path when a friend stole Blightsteel Colossus from me with Bribery.
Do you guys think it was an ok cut?
Been also thinking about getting a Lion's Eye Diamond to make the deck more explosive, and as i said in another comment im trying to get a Mox Opal as well.
Any experience with Lion's Eye Diamond?
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I really do not like Sydri or Equipments. The only equipment i run is Batterskull I do however try to ramp to kozilek as soon as i can since, when i've reached that goal you can play the stuff you've drawn from his trigger.
I don't have much stax really, i got 2 cards that are straight up stax, but kozilek is kind of a monster with his annihilator, that's a stax ability in itself.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Also pretty well with Mind's Eye And of course Kozilek, Butcher of Truth Cast ability. I realize we have zero card draw problems.
Just wondering if anyone actually put any more thought into it.
GRTitan ScapeshiftGR
UBRGrishoalbrandUBR
WRGNaya CompanyWRG
UREldrazi AggroUR
UMerfolkU
WRNorinWR
I'd have to look at your complete list again
There's some around, but we could also easily brainstorm towards one. Everyone here seems to like deckbuilding and theorycrafting
Do note that, stax does benefit a Voltron gameplan. (by quite a bit)
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Alhammarret's Archive
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Batterskull
1x Blinkmoth Urn
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Clock of Omens
1x Cloud Key
1x Coalition Relic
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Darksteel Forge
1x Doubling Cube
1x Dreamstone Hedron
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Expedition Map
1x Forcefield
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Grim Monolith
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Helm of Possession
1x Krark-Clan Ironworks
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Memory Jar
1x Mimic Vat
1x Mind's Eye
1x Mox Diamond
1x Myr Turbine
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sculpting Steel
1x Semblance Anvil
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
1x Storm Cauldron
1x Strionic Resonator
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Tangle Wire
1x Tawnos's Coffin
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Torpor Orb
1x Trading Post
1x Unwinding Clock
1x Voltaic Key
1x Worn Powerstone
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Blinkmoth Well
1x Buried Ruin
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Crystal Vein
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Deserted Temple
1x Dust Bowl
1x Eldrazi Temple
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1x High Market
1x Homeward Path
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Mage-Ring Network
1x Maze of Ith
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Mishra's Workshop
1x Mystifying Maze
1x Petrified Field
1x Phyrexia's Core
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Springjack Pasture
1x Strip Mine
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Urza's Factory
1x Wasteland
1x Winding Canyons
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Copper Gnomes
1x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Metalworker
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Karn Liberated
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x All Is Dust
I've cut Scroll Rack and Dread Statuary for Tanglewire and Mage-Ring Network.
I've added a Mox Diamond but i did cut a land for it (nonbo).
Getting the rest of the staxpackage later on.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
check this out!
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/duel-decks-zendikar-vs-eldrazi-packaging-2015-07-29
Are they gonna remove annihilator and make eldrazis ability an millability but it instead exiles your opponents library? This one has the "Cast" trigger so even if your opponent counters it the cards will get exiled.
Still it's an inevitable end. eventually...
Oh and i love the part where the cards check for ALL the lands that are exiled, so even cards that got exiled from Rest in Peace or the likes are available for you
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Heck, if they fetch and then Delve them away, you get the fetchlands (not like it'll do much for us unless there's a Blood Moon or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out...)
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Tangle Wire is crazy good.
Alhammarret's Archive has been performing really well, definetly a card in the deck.
I've managed to get a Static Orb but i think i'll wait for the Winter Orb. Haven't figured out which stax pieces i'll try out later and what to cut.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I'm actually unsure about that "nonbo" Mox Diamond add, it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway. So you'll actually lose CA,.. It's better to just use an utility land.
That, plus the fact that it can be a dead card.
As with Cloudpost-lands, the off chance of it happenning does not earn it's place in the deck.
EDIT: as has been said before, it's been a while since the main decklist on page 1 has been updated, I will make work of that in the coming week.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Im gonna trade for a Mox Opal, that can take Mox Diamonds place and it won't cost me a land.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Juwdah: Ashnod's Altar, Kyren Troy, Sisay's Ring, Ur-Golem's Eye, Mox Opal, Scroll Rack, Loreseeker's Stone, Winter Orb, Mirror Works, Duplicant, and Mindslaver·
Runnin: Alhammarret's Archive, Batterskull, Cloud Key, Forcefield, Mox Diamond, Staff of Domination, Tawnos's Coffin, Unstable Obelisk, Arcbound Reclaimer, Copper Gnomes, Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine.
There was some variance in the mana base. Both are playing land's that are way out of the average player's budget. Feel free to highlight important differences.
I wanted their opinion which cards are essential and which are conditional based on meta.
I guess i can try to write up an answer for you.
Im still quite new when it comes to playing Kozilek since i've been mainly a Karn, Silver Golem player before and that build is quite different, its more combo heavy than stax/ramp heavy like most Kozilek lists seems to be.
Same with the manarocks im still not really sure of which to run and im changing up the deck almost every week to see what fits and what doesen't fit.
I've added Lion's Eye Diamond to the list and i did cut Unstable Obelisk for the time being.
What i think about my cardchoices you highlighted:
Alhammarret's Archive is a card i've tried out a couple of times now and it's been really strong, getting double value from kozileks drawtrigger, getting to draw 2 cards from Sensei's Divining Top/ Trading Postetc, seems pretty good eh?
Batterskull is a recurrable creature + equipment that i really like, i hate most equipments but i feel like Batterskull fits in the deck, sometimes you need that lifegain.
Cloud Key, many cards i got is from my old Karn deck, cloudkey could be slow but sometimes its crazy how much mana you get from one card. It kinda sucks it doesen't make Kozilek cheaper but it does make all of our artifacts cheaper. I also run Helm of Awakening when i really want to go off, throwing out all of my mana rocks to play Kozilek and his friends:)
Forcefield, alot of ppl are running Blightsteel Colossus, hexproofed and shrouded creatues in my meta so i wanted an answer for them. Making Uril the Miststalker hit for 1 instead of 32+ is pretty good
Same thing against huge token armies, i've prevented 1000s of damage with ForceField.
I would say the card is definetly a meta call and not something i would just get immediatly since it's quite pricey.
Mox Diamond, Like i've said in this thread lately it's a card i've wanted to try in the deck but i realised its too much of a 2 for 1. Not only that, like Juwdah said :" it's just going to weaken your board position to artifact hate even more, as this deck cannot use it to effectively "ramp" due to it's low amount of lands anyway".
So im planning to switch it for Mox Opal instead.
Staff of Domination is a card i've wanted to play with for quite some time and suddenly it got unbanned with Metalworker! I love the foil version of this card so its in for now, it works pretty good with Alhammarret's Archive.
Tawnos's Coffin is a card i just love rules wise and it was MVP in Karn for the spotremoval it offered. In Karn with the combos he can pull off you could hide all of your Artifacts in the Coffin, let the coffin get destroyed and save your board, it could even remove certain annoying permanents in conjunction with Karn + Liquimetal Coating.
Unstable Obelisk, some say its slow but i feel like its a nice option to have, to instantly nuke a permanent. Not only that, once you've achieved a certain amount of mana it's a great removal, it won't really be dead lategame, sucks that it costs 3 and not 2 but i think it would be too good at 2.
Arcbound Reclaimeris here for the recursion he offers, but he could get switched out, i just love golems
Getting back certain cards can get you back into the game.
Copper Gnomes is even better now that i run Blightsteel Colossus, it does draw a bit of hate but it's kinda like a one sided show and tell. An uncounterable artifact straight into play, why not? Look at the cute gnomes as well :=)
Steel Hellkite is kind of a petcard, i play it in legacy and i played it in standard in all of my Artifact centered builds, it blows up stuff that has hexproof as well, and now with the new Tomb of the Spirit Dragon you can recurr it if need be. Turns into a wincon as well with mana available.
Wurmcoil Engine It can be quite dead later on since there's so many better bombs in other decks in this format but i mainly had him in for the lifelink + he comboes with Krark-Clan Ironworks+ Nim Deathmantle, an old combo in karn, but Wurmcoil is a card i played in standard and i still play it in modern. I just love the card.
I would say alot of my choices are because i really like them or having quite a bit of history with them Still haven't acquired the necessary stuff of the stax Package that Juwdah runs since the players in my meta can be quite cranky when it comes to stax strategies.
Regarding the lands: I don't think i can comment yet on it since Juwdah hasn't updated his list.
All in all im still trying to find stack off 99 cards that works well with Kozilek.
Some cards i can comment on that you highlighted from Juwdah's List:
Scroll Rack : I do have this card but im sort of still trying it out, it's amazing when it works, but i kinda felt i don't have enough shuffle effects in the the deck, maybe im just picky.
I will add it again later on i think, seems just too good.[card]
Loreseeker's Stone: It seems amazing Haven't tried it yet and i don't know what to cut for it.
Winter Orb, Trying to find a beta one for a decent price when i have the funds/cards for it!
Mirror Works, i have yet tried this card but it seems stupidly good in this build Just playing a Lion's Eye Diamond from a topdeck and copying it can be good.
Duplicant seems really strong and i can definetly see it taking up a slot in my deck, exiling an Akroma / Prophet is just soo satisfying. Especially if it exiles Hellkite Tyrant.
Mindslaver is a fun card and quite strong, i think i need this card but we'll see about it. Like i said about Arcbound Reclaimer, quite strong if i got the recursion for it
EDIT: Oh and i forgot to mention, because of how my meta reacted to this deck it was a bad beatdown deck, im still working on it:)
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I expect Juwdah has tried out most if not all of your suggestions. He can aid us in separating the wheat from the chaff.
He replied a few posts before yours that he'd update the OP soon. I'm looking forward to the changes as well. This is one of my favorite deck in the format. This is the most recent list I could find: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/477463-kozilek-butcher-with-juice?page=48
Hmm, On first sight I can see that Runnin's picks are aimed at a more build-up gameplan with beats. Whereas my experience with the deck is more of an all-in, I hardly believe in recursion anymore for this deck, so things like Arcbound Reclaimer are too much of a "Plan C" for me.
I'll go over the list as well.
Alhammaret's Archive: Haven't tested this yet. No opinion.
Batterskull: While it's a very strong card, I can't justifiy it in my list as it's very low on creatures and the ones I do run, or kozilek, don't need it. I do like it's lifelink for keeping the player alive long enough. Strong, but out of place on my list. Runnin is using more creatures as a beat-down plan though, so could be that it's strong enough to retain a spot in a deck like that.
Cloud Key: Cloud Key is good, nothing else I can say about it. I'm running both Semblance Anvil and Helm of Awakening already so I don't feel the need to include it, but it's a great card for this deck nevertheless. Also an enabler for Sculpting Steel/Spine of Ish Sah/Krark-Clan Ironworks combo.
Forcefield: Haven't tested this yet, no opinion.
Mox Diamond: My opinion on this card can be read two or three posts above this.
Staff of Domination: It's a great card, but it's just underwhelming in a deck like this. It's good with the occasional Metalworker though, and lots of people will run this card for it's reputation.
Tawnos's Coffin: Still unsure, not enough testing to have an opinion.
Unstable Obelisk: Haven't tested it yet, but it seems underwhelming in my eyes. I could ofcourse, be wrong.
Arcbound Reclaimer: I always found that it's good in theory, but underwhelming on the field. To top it off, it's a dead card often. Not my cup of tea.
Copper Gnomes: I don't see the reason for paying 6 mana for an artifact and lose CA when I can just play a ramp card. It even opens up more weak spots for the opponent to abuse.
Steel Hellkite: Underperforming lately, if it's still in the main decklist on page 1, it ain't going to be for long. Without other options available though, it's extra removal. Just, too slow for today's meta.
Wurmcoil Engine: Good card, just not good for the gameplan I'm aiming for. Could be better in Runnin's deck.
I think most cards can be explained with the text provided on page 1, however, I can explain the differences.
Ashnods, Sisay's Ring, etc are obviously extra ramp pieces as I'm going for a more all in strategy.
Loreseeker's Stone is a great card for CA.
Scroll Rack has actually been underperforming for me as well, might see a cut soon for more CA (the archive, perhaps?)
I can't stress enough how good Winter Orb is in this deck, no matter what gameplan.
Mindslaver is a very stable wincondition that's gotten me many games where other winconditions would not have been possible.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Cool, thanks for the write up, gonna look through my deck tomorrow when i got the time.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Thanks to you and Runnin for the response. That was exactly what I was hoping to get.
Due to loreseeker's Stone's addition, I would say it's safe to remove Scroll Rack if you want to run Cloud Key.
And for Tawnos's Coffin, I'd remove Helm of Possession.
Don't feel the need to chase after a Tabernacle, it's good, other things have more priority though.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
My new phone is broken so i got this replacement phone in the mean time, it kinda sucks ^^'.
I'll replace Mox Diamond with the newly acquired Opal, and i think im gonna cut Arcbound Reclaimer for Loreseeker's Stonejust to try it out tomorrow.
EDIT:
ALSO! Cutting Mystifying Maze + Cloud Key for Winter Orb and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale just to try out the stax package.
Maybe i should cut Semblance Anvil instead of Cloud Key?
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I have glacial cravasse in place of tabernacle. I am rarely upset to see it in my hand as it can hold off an entire table until someone finds a way to get rid of it or when you decide you have enough board presence to let it go and smash face. Just wished it tapped for mana.
Are there any colorless land tutors that we could add?