I know you have talked up Cloudshift and how it has saved your butt. What would be the difference between that and the following (besides some costing 2CMC):
The only benefit I can think of ETB effects from certain creatures.
I see that blueram is not playing Aurelia, the Warleader, but did you know that Cloudshift can give you 3 attack phases? Simply Cloudshift Aurelia at the end of the first combat phase and she comes back into play with no memory of her former self.
If you already had Kaalia and Gisela on the board (non-summoning sick) you could technically swing for 20 points of damage 3 times in one turn!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like watching Commander Gameplay? Check out our EDH Battles on Youtube! MTGCasualPlay EDH Battles
I see that blueram is not playing Aurelia, the Warleader, but did you know that Cloudshift can give you 3 attack phases? Simply Cloudshift Aurelia at the end of the first combat phase and she comes back into play with no memory of her former self.
If you already had Kaalia and Gisela on the board (non-summoning sick) you could technically swing for 20 points of damage 3 times in one turn!
Only an turn after Aurelia was cheated in, unless you hard cast her.
Both my Uril and Kaalia decks have the same problem you are experiencing... those darn clones!!!
Currently I run Flickerform in Uril, but not Kaalia. I am very interested to hear how Flickerform is working for you.
My current plan to avoid cloning effects (Very Similar to yours) in Kaalia are: Angelic Renewal (Love it!) Ghostway (Can dig for this with Sunforger)
and Legion's Initiative (as soon as Dragon's Maze is released).
I have also considered using Silence and Orim's Chant cast during the blue mage's upkeep to keep them from casting their clone. I run these in Uril, with a small degree of success so far.
Keep us updated on other ideas to survive the Clone Wars!
Hm. I'm intrigued by the possibility of Silence and Orim's Chant. I think I'd rather have some of the more reactive cards in my deck though since I don't want to preemptively use a card when they might not have an answer anyway.
Legion's Initiative is a card I'll definitely try and find room to carve out for. With all of these awesome cards as of late, it's getting really hard to keep certain things in. :/
Perhaps Orzhov Charm and Otherworldly Journey? OJ is a cheaper version of Ghostway and Orzhov charm has utility to recycle ETB effects on creatures cheated in by Kaalia (can also destroy and problematic creature at the cost of life). Bonus: both searchable via Sunforger.
I probably should look into Orzhov Charm at SOME point. I'm not a big fan of it's removal modular, and we can't really use it's reanimation modular with the current list, but bounce has been relevant before.
I see that blueram is not playing Aurelia, the Warleader, but did you know that Cloudshift can give you 3 attack phases? Simply Cloudshift Aurelia at the end of the first combat phase and she comes back into play with no memory of her former self.
If you already had Kaalia and Gisela on the board (non-summoning sick) you could technically swing for 20 points of damage 3 times in one turn!
I thought about playing Aurelia in the deck, but the only copy I have is manning my Boros deck atm, centered around getting multiple attack steps within a single turn.
I can't really say since I never gave her a testing, but the mana cost seems kinda intensive for this deck. Not only that, but dropping her on turn six when we want Kaalia out by turn three or four seems a little slow. You can certainly build your deck around that if you want, of course, but mine just isn't tuned for that.
I've tried playing Razia's Purification before, and it taught me something important: Cards that let your opponent decide things are usually pretty bad. By this, I mean cards that give final say like Vexing Devil are very hard to play with since they require head games and ideal scenarios which don't come up very often. More often than not I'd rather have a hard wrath than something that may let my opponent keep their biggest dude that's keeping Kaalia from swinging in. Not only that, but Avacyn can't protect us from it.
Second of all, If you can't find posts about it, it probably wasn't brought up at all.
I'm actually not considering Sire of Insanity because I don't run a reanimation list. If I did, I would, and anyone else who does should really take a look at him. But I don't, so I'm still not.
Fourth of all, I ABSOLUTELY RESENT CALLING Master of Cruelties AN AUTO-INCLUDE. It is by NO MEANS an auto-include, it never WILL be an auto-include (at least for this type of deck), and I will personally drop kick anyone in my local area who calls it as such.
There are VERY few cards I would consider an "auto-include", and those involve cards that are pretty easy to obtain, or help a deck so much in a specific way that I kind of have to scratch my head at why it isn't in there, particularly when you don't need to warp your deck around it to make it work. The best example would be Crib Swap in a Horde of Notions deck. Why wouldn't you want recurable removal if you're fine with paying eight mana to do it? It just makes too much sense not to.
So why don't I include a potential one-shot kill in the "auto-include" list of Kaalia? A couple of reasons.
1) It needs some set up to work.
Yes it's a one-shot kill, but that requires both Kaalia and Master to go unblocked first. Unless you're roaring ahead of everyone else with mana rocks and hitting them fast, chances are someone's going to have a blocker to take on the Master. It may or may not be the person that you need to kill, and it definitely depends on your meta.
2) The Meta
Because my meta uses a lot of little dudes like Wood Elves and Solemn Simulacrum, the Master is going to be blocked more often than not and is just going to sit on the board, doing nothing while I try and get more Kaalia swings going. Best case scenario, someone panics and he eats some removal for us.
It's like trying to play my Karador deck sometimes. If I'm playing in a meta with a lot of graveyard hate, then the deck has a really hard time of winning.
3)The Nature of Multiplayer
If you're wrathing away everyone's lands with Kaalia on board, you've pretty much won the game by this point. If you're doing it when it's just the Master, all you've done is find a way to get everyone to one life without winning. The flash in trick is something that works as a very powerful combination...against a single player. After that, the Master doesn't do anything except guard for us because of his "exalted" restriction....though I admit that would make for a cool exalted deck idea.
4) He warps the deck...somewhat
If you run more sac outlets than I do, then he gets A LOT better because of support like Phyrexian Reclamation. But you need to be running a reanimator build rather than the build we have here which is, "play Kaalia, wrath away the lands so they can't deal with her". The deck is focused on Kaalia, but if you want to get maximum usage out of Master then Kaalia just becomes an enabler and the Master pretty much takes over the deck. Yes, you can also run bounce effects with Orzhov Charm and Oni of Wild Places, like some people do for Rakdos. There's nothing wrong with that per se, it's just not the way I want to build the deck. Speaking of which...
5) This Deck Is Built for Land Wraths, not Reanimation/etc
I've mentioned it several times by now, but it's worth saying again: I think he would do well in a reanimation version of Kaalia that wants to get dudes back into her hand for re-use, but we don't do that. We pretty much shotgun out creatures with Kaalia, and hope everyone lives until we can cast Armageddon.
A big reason I don't like calling a card an "auto-include" is because so many different decks want to different things. Even someone as seemingly narrow as Kaalia can be built in multiple different ways. Straight forward aggro (like ours), reanimation, control...you can even go cleric tribal if you want or just play with a "who's who" of your favorite angels, demons, and dragons. You can make it tribal for any of her three types and use her as an enabler.
My point is, an "auto-include" doesn't care what sort of deck it's going into. Master of Cruelties does, a lot.
6) I Despise "Cheap Knock-Outs".
This might be my inner hipster talking but I don't like one-shot kills, especially when it requires so few cards. Two cards like Kaalia/Master, Niv-Mizzet/Curiousity...I REALLY don't like using them, at least in mutiplayer. If I were running a one-vs.-one list like 3drinks is, THEN I'd say Master is an auto-include no problem since two-player commander is a lot more focused on efficient decks that can win.
The Master is a real "feel bad" card in that it can come out of nowhere and absolutely ruin a game for someone where they sit around waiting for the next game to start because now Master can't kill anyone else. Granted, land wraths can do that too, but at least they usually end the game for EVERYONE when it's cast and lets everyone shuffle up for a new game right away (which happens every time I cast Armageddon to win). I prefer my games to involve lots of interactivity until I'm ready to seal my win.
This is BY FAR one of the bigget reasons I don't consider Master an "auto-include", but it's the biggest. Auto-includes are acceptable in nearly every meta, whereas I can see lots of people getting frustrated and upset at Master.
If there's an open slot in the future for my deck, or my primary group gets reeeeeally competitive, THEN I'll consider putting him in there. As it is, I'm not bothering to run him.
UPDATE!!!
Bought a box and a fatpack of Dragon's Maze today, so I got some nice stuff that I WILL be adding to Kaalia.
I never really get the full value off of OT, so I'm going with a much better two-for-one with the split card. The split card is also a lot cheaper to cast when I only one target, and casting it for three is what I usually do for OT anyway. I'll add the thunder back in if I need more enchantment/artifact removal, but since my regular group has a bigger problem with powerful enchantments/artifacts than creatures, I think the new option might prove more effective.
I'm not sure how much cutting card draw will hurt me, but the triple black and five life was a little much at times for me. Here, I'm opting for a much more easily cast spell, and one that acts as reanimation for ANY permanent in our graveyard, which I like. I'd been looking for a way to get some more reanimation into this deck (just enough to have a back up in case high-powered cards like Avacyn died off), and this one fits the bill. Hopefully it'll work out as well as I think it does.
I also got a foil Legion's Initiative, but I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut for it. Maybe Sword of War and Peace? I still like it for its protection, and I haven't had a chance to properly test it out yet, so I'll keep it in mind for the future.
Have you considered Aurelia, the War Leader? Or even just Aggravated Assault? Aggravated assault (or for that matter Hellkite Charger, a free version) combos infinitely with Sword of Feast and Famine. Sorry I'm new here, I don't know how to tag cards.
Have you considered Aurelia, the War Leader? Or even just Aggravated Assault? Aggravated assault (or for that matter Hellkite Charger, a free version) combos infinitely with Sword of Feast and Famine. Sorry I'm new here, I don't know how to tag cards.
Just use card and /card surrounding each with its own set of brackets or use the little button you'll see that looks like a card on on the post dash.
And yes, those cards have been considered, but unless you're specifically building your deck around extra attacks with all sorts of haste effects (Urabrask, Fervor, and [cardAnger[/card] to name a few), I genuinely find extra attack steps to be wasted in Kaalia because the creatures she flashes in can't attack again due to summoning sickness.
Furthermore, I'm just not a fan of infinite combos to begin with and I consider them extremely cheap, even it's an attacking one. I have an infinite combo in my Aurelia deck, but by the deck's nature I'm unlikely to draw into it so I don't mind as much. With this deck, if I wanted to focus on the combo, I'd start tutoring for it, and then it'd be less Kaalia and more combo.
I was playing a game with Kaalia where one person was playing Jhoira chaos, one was playing Cromat, and yet another was using some sort of blue artifact deck. Regardless, I wasn't worried about spot removal for this one. Because of that, I was comfortable with dropping Kaalia without protection and cast Armageddon the turn after dropping Gisela. I killed Jhoira and Cromat pretty quickly, but not before drawing seven with a Jin-Gitaxias that my Lord of the Void grabbed from Jhoira, and making everyone else ditch their hands.
My only concern was artifact guy and how his Steel Overseer had pumped an army of thopters that swung at me for lethal as soon as I'd killed the other two players.
This is where it gets cool.
First I used Cloudshift on my Rune-Scarred Demon to get myself a blocker, with the bonus of tutoring up a card (grabbing Avacyn). Then, I blocked his strongest dude, preventing significant damage and killing the demon, only to be brought back by Angelic Renewal and letting me tutor for another card (Akroma's Vengeance). I swung with my team at him, dropped Avacyn with Kaalia, and then wrathed away the last of his board to force a scoop out of him.
So ya...I like Renewal now. Looking forward to seeing how it works against my normal group.
Alright, I understand your deck better now. Thanks for the detailed insight I didn't expect you to not like Master of Cruelties but you make a fair point.
Anyway, I'm glad you posted an update to the deck. Angelic Renewal has been wonderful in my B/W Ghost Council ETB deck and I often use it much in the same fashion as you did. In fact I'm getting a little depressed of how good ETB-centric decks are in Commander... (granted, we don't play with infinite combos)
Seriously, I like to play it in any deck that doesn't use a lot of ETB effects itself and it completely hoses a lot of the more "finely tuned" decks in my meta. Beautiful thing, that.
And ya, I thought I would like Master of Cruelties too, especially after I learned how it worked, but the more I looked through my deck to make cuts and thought about how it played, the more I realized that this isn't the deck to make it work. If I were making some changes for 1-on-1 I'd add it in no questions asked, but as is, we need more reliable options.
I was playing a game with Kaalia where one person was playing Jhoira chaos, one was playing Cromat, and yet another was using some sort of blue artifact deck. Regardless, I wasn't worried about spot removal for this one. Because of that, I was comfortable with dropping Kaalia without protection and cast Armageddon the turn after dropping Gisela. I killed Jhoira and Cromat pretty quickly, but not before drawing seven with a Jin-Gitaxias that my Lord of the Void grabbed from Jhoira, and making everyone else ditch their hands.
My only concern was artifact guy and how his Steel Overseer had pumped an army of thopters that swung at me for lethal as soon as I'd killed the other two players.
This is where it gets cool.
First I used Cloudshift on my Rune-Scarred Demon to get myself a blocker, with the bonus of tutoring up a card (grabbing Avacyn). Then, I blocked his strongest dude, preventing significant damage and killing the demon, only to be brought back by Angelic Renewal and letting me tutor for another card (Akroma's Vengeance). I swung with my team at him, dropped Avacyn with Kaalia, and then wrathed away the last of his board to force a scoop out of him.
So ya...I like Renewal now. Looking forward to seeing how it works against my normal group.
So I think it's safe to say that the new legend rule helps out Kaalia a TON. I was SO sick of having Avacyn and Iona legend-ruled by my friend's Captain Sisay deck, and it eliminates one of the easiest ways that players have been using to kill Kaalia, even after she's strapped on her boots or a sword.
DO WANT and will be applying to my groups immediately, official applications be damned.
Have you experimented at all with extra combats? I have Aurelia right now, but I'd like to get an idea of how powerful they are before expending resources on acquiring the cards. Great primer btw! I'm a relatively new player and had no idea about the true power of the Sunforger!
Have you experimented at all with extra combats? I have Aurelia right now, but I'd like to get an idea of how powerful they are before expending resources on acquiring the cards. Great primer btw! I'm a relatively new player and had no idea about the true power of the Sunforger!
Thanks! Yes, Sunforger has always been a pet card of mine. I've thought about taking it before, but every time I do I look at our toolbox and remember just how much reach it gives us in multiplayer dog-fights when we can't cast Armageddon on turn five like we'd want to. I love it so much I made a Numot Sunforger-control list that plays a lot of the good white and red counterspells...hm...I need to put that list up soon....
As for extra combat steps, it really depends on how you want to build your deck. You certainly CAN build Kaalia to take advantage of those, but there are a few downsides:
1) A lot of them only untap creatures that "attacked". Since the creatures that Kaalia flashes never declared an attack, they don't get the benefit of the attack step.
2) Unless they have haste (like Akroma), they won't get to attack even if they untap. Unless you have a hand chocked full of angels, demons, or dragons, Kaalia's going to be swinging by herself most of the time since our creatures are usually such high priorities for spot removal too.
3) As I mentioned above, unless you have a hand chock full of A/D/D, then Kaalia lacks the punch to really make use of those effects. This is a deck that tends to run out of cards pretty quickly, so unless you have a way to constantly keep a fresh grip of cards (somewhat hard to do in these colors), then the effect is minimal.
But like I said, if that's the route you want to go with your deck, it's definitely doable, you just have to overcome those three obstacles.
Have you experimented at all with extra combats? I have Aurelia right now, but I'd like to get an idea of how powerful they are before expending resources on acquiring the cards. Great primer btw! I'm a relatively new player and had no idea about the true power of the Sunforger!
If you run Sunforger, don't forget another one of blueram's pet cards: Cloudshift! Cloudshift is amazing for dodging spot-removal or reusing ETB effects.
I am using Aurelia, the Warleader in my Kaalia deck right now with above-average results:
DRAWBACKS:
If you sneak her in with Kaalia her ability will NOT trigger that turn.
If she attacks outright with Kaalia, and you sneak an A/D/D into play, that particular A/D/D will not be able to attack in combat phase 2 due to summoning sickness.
That being said.
Turn 3 Kaalia, Equip Greaves, Attack, Sneak Aurelia in. (1 attack phase)
Turn 4 Attack with Kaalia + Aurelia, Sneak in Gisela. Attack Again (Gisela cannot attack), Sneak in another A/D/D.
Turn 5 Win Game. Attack with Kaalia + Aurelia + Gisela + A/D/D... twice. Win-more
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like watching Commander Gameplay? Check out our EDH Battles on Youtube! MTGCasualPlay EDH Battles
3) As I mentioned above, unless you have a hand chock full of A/D/D, then Kaalia lacks the punch to really make use of those effects. This is a deck that tends to run out of cards pretty quickly, so unless you have a way to constantly keep a fresh grip of cards (somewhat hard to do in these colors), then the effect is minimal.
So do you have any suggestions for generating more card advantage? I have Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon but are there any other consistent ways to draw cards?
If you run Sunforger, don't forget another one of blueram's pet cards: Cloudshift! Cloudshift is amazing for dodging spot-removal or reusing ETB effects.
I am using Aurelia, the Warleader in my Kaalia deck right now with above-average results:
DRAWBACKS:
If you sneak her in with Kaalia her ability will NOT trigger that turn.
If she attacks outright with Kaalia, and you sneak an A/D/D into play, that particular A/D/D will not be able to attack in combat phase 2 due to summoning sickness.
That being said.
Turn 3 Kaalia, Equip Greaves, Attack, Sneak Aurelia in. (1 attack phase)
Turn 4 Attack with Kaalia + Aurelia, Sneak in Gisela. Attack Again (Gisela cannot attack), Sneak in another A/D/D.
Turn 5 Win Game. Attack with Kaalia + Aurelia + Gisela + A/D/D... twice. Win-more
Aurelia I actually consider to be okay. I'd be much more willing to give her a test run (and pretty excited to try it too) IF it didn't require me to cut any of the amazing creatures I'm already packing. From a pure competitive standpoint, I should have cut Akroma by now, but she gets a pass for being one of my all-time favorite cards ever so no dice.
It's a good problem to have when you have TONS of quality creatures coming out every set that seem to slot in very nicely for Kaalia, particuarly since angels, demons, and dragons are some of the best supported higher-rarity tribes in Magic.
So do you have any suggestions for generating more card advantage? I have Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon but are there any other consistent ways to draw cards?
Necropotence is mana-intensive, but is GREAT card draw and should really be run in any black deck that needs a full grip. The only downside is that when we use life as a resource, we tend to burn through it pretty quickly, especially if people are trying to kill us (and they will). Fortunately, there are enough lifelink angels out there (like Baneslayer Angel) that you can run to get it back. There's also Vault of the Archangel which I've come to love, just because it's a relevant mana sink that makes Kaalia a lot less appealing to block and makes Balefire Dragon absolutely nuts. I also ran Promise of Power and still run Sword of Fire and Ice for some nice draw power. PoP recently came out of my list, but it's a solid one-shot effect.
For my purposes though (in addition to the above), I run a small amount of "wheel" effects, cards that force everyone to discard their hand to draw seven new cards.
Reforge the Soul is great because it's miracle cost gives us disruption when played with Top, and is relatively cheap to cast without the MC, AND can be set up with Liliana's tutor ability (I LOVE doing that and have done so multiple times). Dragon Mage can be cheated in with Kaalia AND draws you those cards you need. I usually try to use him last if I have cards I want to use, but sometimes you might need to just get some new cards, even if it means abandoning one or two otherwise sweet cards.
The bonus of using wheel effects is that if you play in a combo-based meta (like I was for a while), playing one late when people are holding game-winners absolutely hoses their plan. Again, RtS is AWESOME for this strategy if you combine it with top after they've drawn their tutored-game-winner (by drawing it on their turn).
...that reminds me, I need to get an ACTUAL Wheel of Fortune for this deck at some point...
So do you have any suggestions for generating more card advantage? I have Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon but are there any other consistent ways to draw cards?
Similar to blueram's perspective on wheel effects. My card draw consists of Dragon Mage and Wheel of Fortune (I don't run Top so Wheel works better for me at :2mana::symr:)
Looking through the list earlier this week, I realized that I lacked a lot of "catch-up" power. With this in mind, I swapped Boom // Bust for Merciless Eviction. Another sweeper was sorely needed, and Bust isn't necessarily the best land wipe we have. Sometimes you just gotta deal with dudes. :/
It's been a while since I've played Kaalia at the LGS. Unfortunately, most of it was spent fighting from under an Iona locking me out white, and subsequently most of my spells. I was also denied from Kaalia a lot with all of the Elesh Norns running around.
This has finally convinced me to look VERY closely for something to cut for Legion's Initiative. I've been wanting to add it for a while (particularly since I pulled a foil version from my fat pack when DGM was released), but had a hard time making cuts.
This is potentially a bad move considering how hungry Kaalia is for a grip of cards, but I'm making the experimental move of cutting Phyrexian Arena for LI. If Elesh Norn is going to dominate my meta, then I need to find every way possible I can use to Keep Kaalia alive, and anthem effects that double as anti-wrath tech really do the trick. Sword of War and Peace has been relevant so far just because it stops Kaalia from being path'd, swords'd, chaos warp'd, or any given burn spell. We rarely have cards in our hand to use the life gain, and the hand-based burn varies, so it's continuing to see play for the protection more than anything else. It DOES work nicely with Necropotence though.
With that said, I played three games with Kaalia (I think) and won the last one. Toward the beginning, I swung Kaalia at the Maelstrom Wanderer player and flashed in a Lord of the Void. No blockers, I used Boros Charm to give the Lord double strike, and Maelstrom immediately scooped. I mean, jesus. He'd already cast Maelstom by that point and got a couple of dudes out of it and he starts calling me out as the dick at the table just because I'm playing Kaalia.
Honestly, it's because of attitudes like this that I have no qualms using Armageddon as a win-con. That and the Sisay player calling me out for having Armageddon when he takes 20 mins to tutor every game and builds a board state of Avacyn, Elesh, and Iona every game.
Whatever. I'm off to update the deck list.
EDIT: Deck has FINALLY been updated! Geez, you'd think I would have noticed that I cut stuff like Eternal Dragon out sooner.
Just out of curiosity, why did you take Eternal Dragon out. Even though he is not on my current list, he has been bugging me to give him a chance.
Wear // Tear is a card I added as well. I mean, I liked Return to Dust but the WW and extra mana left me high and dry sometimes.
Obzedat's Aid. I also thought about this one. How do you like it so far? I passed on this card because there was not a lot of non-creature permanents in my graveyard that would justify running this over Reanimate.
With that said, I played three games with Kaalia (I think) and won the last one. Toward the beginning, I swung Kaalia at the Maelstrom Wanderer player and flashed in a Lord of the Void. No blockers, I used Boros Charm to give the Lord double strike, and Maelstrom immediately scooped. I mean, jesus. He'd already cast Maelstom by that point and got a couple of dudes out of it and he starts calling me out as the dick at the table just because I'm playing Kaalia.
Honestly, it's because of attitudes like this that I have no qualms using Armageddon as a win-con. That and the Sisay player calling me out for having Armageddon when he takes 20 mins to tutor every game and builds a board state of Avacyn, Elesh, and Iona every game.
It seems to me more-and-more lately, that Magic players get ticked off at anyone that doesn't try to win the same way they do. IMO, Maelstrom is way more degenerate than Kaalia... They can cascade into Jokulhops or Apocalypse (I think) and have Maelstrom as the only permanent on the table. Seen it many times.
Elesh has also been rearing its ugly head at our table lately... let me know if you find more ways to get around her. For now, I am considering even more spot removal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like watching Commander Gameplay? Check out our EDH Battles on Youtube! MTGCasualPlay EDH Battles
Just out of curiosity, why did you take Eternal Dragon out. Even though he is not on my current list, he has been bugging me to give him a chance.
Wear // Tear is a card I added as well. I mean, I liked Return to Dust but the WW and extra mana left me high and dry sometimes.
Obzedat's Aid. I also thought about this one. How do you like it so far? I passed on this card because there was not a lot of non-creature permanents in my graveyard that would justify running this over Reanimate.
It seems to me more-and-more lately, that Magic players get ticked off at anyone that doesn't try to win the same way they do. IMO, Maelstrom is way more degenerate than Kaalia... They can cascade into Jokulhops or Apocalypse (I think) and have Maelstrom as the only permanent on the table. Seen it many times.
Elesh has also been rearing its ugly head at our table lately... let me know if you find more ways to get around her. For now, I am considering even more spot removal.
I ended up cutting Eternal Dragon because what I needed was a faster start, not long-term land drops. He got cut for a mana rock, and I've been pretty happy with that. I've only ever used him to fetch a plains ONCE per game because it's so costly to bring him back. He's great when you don't have anything else to do, but if that's happening, we're going to need more than a simple dragon. I'd prefer to keep mana open for a top-decked fatty.
Obzedat's Aid hasn't seen TOO much play as of yet just because I haven't drawn it. It's a good tutor target though, so I'm keeping that in mind. At least Sword of War and Peace is pulling its weight just for the protection and the buff on Kaalia.
I've been wondering if I just don't have enough removal PERIOD, because if Iona declares white, I have virtually no way to get rid of her, save combat and Chaos Warp. Of course, trying to open other colors diminishes the value of the Sunforger packages somewhat.
I'm at least giving Tragic Slip a look just because it gets around the Iona lock and kills Avacyn.
Hey there mate, I've been following your deck for quite a while and it has given me many answers to problems that I've been having. That being said, thank you, and let's get on with the discussion-
Why not race them to see who gets Iona first, if you call white before they do, that should prevent them from casting a bunch of spells as well. Of course, worst case scenario, you are going to need to find black/red removal. Having diversity in removal is always good, though it's difficult to find them in Kaalia's colors.
What's the scenario in your meta anyway? Which opponents of yours run Iona and what colors do they run?
Tragic Slip seems okay, but meeting the conditions for morbid seems iffy to me. In a multiplayer game, when Iona comes out, that should be nearing end game status. So either Iona gets wiped by a form of mass removal, or gets destroyed by a non-white spell. Sure, you or your opponents can chump and Tragic Slip Iona that way, but if it was you who had to chump, you'd be losing a creature ]:
If you're that late into a game, assuming you haven't used armageddon, would it be safe to suggest Weight of Spires? It may be creature specific as well, but it also supports the sunforger package and slaps things silly.
I ended up cutting Eternal Dragon because what I needed was a faster start, not long-term land drops. He got cut for a mana rock, and I've been pretty happy with that. I've only ever used him to fetch a plains ONCE per game because it's so costly to bring him back. He's great when you don't have anything else to do, but if that's happening, we're going to need more than a simple dragon. I'd prefer to keep mana open for a top-decked fatty.
Good point. Thanx for the tip... back in the binder with Eternal Dragon, lol.
I've been wondering if I just don't have enough removal PERIOD, because if Iona declares white, I have virtually no way to get rid of her, save combat and Chaos Warp. Of course, trying to open other colors diminishes the value of the Sunforger packages somewhat.
I'm at least giving Tragic Slip a look just because it gets around the Iona lock and kills Avacyn.
I'm gonna go out on a super, thin limb here and really stretch for an answer... maybe a brainstorming session to combat Elesh and Iona...
Grab the Reins. Take their Iona or Elesh and throw her back at them with Entwine? Grasping for straws on this one, but it IS a desperation Sunforger target (minus Entwine cost).
Damnation. Black Wrath of God... to replace one of the white sweepers?
Shadowborn Demon from M14. 3BB Destroy target non-Demon creature when it ETB... sacrifice during upkeep though.
Elesh has been popping up during some of our matches but lately, I only see Iona if someone uses Bribery on my deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you like watching Commander Gameplay? Check out our EDH Battles on Youtube! MTGCasualPlay EDH Battles
Hey there mate, I've been following your deck for quite a while and it has given me many answers to problems that I've been having. That being said, thank you, and let's get on with the discussion-
Why not race them to see who gets Iona first, if you call white before they do, that should prevent them from casting a bunch of spells as well. Of course, worst case scenario, you are going to need to find black/red removal. Having diversity in removal is always good, though it's difficult to find them in Kaalia's colors.
What's the scenario in your meta anyway? Which opponents of yours run Iona and what colors do they run?
Tragic Slip seems okay, but meeting the conditions for morbid seems iffy to me. In a multiplayer game, when Iona comes out, that should be nearing end game status. So either Iona gets wiped by a form of mass removal, or gets destroyed by a non-white spell. Sure, you or your opponents can chump and Tragic Slip Iona that way, but if it was you who had to chump, you'd be losing a creature ]:
If you're that late into a game, assuming you haven't used armageddon, would it be safe to suggest Weight of Spires? It may be creature specific as well, but it also supports the sunforger package and slaps things silly.
I'm gonna go out on a super, thin limb here and really stretch for an answer... maybe a brainstorming session to combat Elesh and Iona...
Grab the Reins. Take their Iona or Elesh and throw her back at them with Entwine? Grasping for straws on this one, but it IS a desperation Sunforger target (minus Entwine cost).
Damnation. Black Wrath of God... to replace one of the white sweepers?
Shadowborn Demon from M14. 3BB Destroy target non-Demon creature when it ETB... sacrifice during upkeep though.
Elesh has been popping up during some of our matches but lately, I only see Iona if someone uses Bribery on my deck.
First of all, let me just say that I'm an idiot for forgetting that Wrecking Ball, Terminate, and Dreadbore are still cards. The first two even work with sunforger. I'll have to change up some of the removal...I may even end up cutting Path just to diversify the colors.
Second, thank you and welcome! Glad this primer is still helping people, though I wish more of them would comment and share their experiences (I'll catch up to you yet 3drinks!!! *shakes fist*).
Racing for Iona sounds like something that's doable if we get a tutor or lucky on the draw.
So far though, the problem's been the same: SISAY. If I don't deal with sisay swiftly and quickly, I start having problems. There was a game where I managed to shut down a Sisay by not only dropping Stranglehold, but by blowing up Thousand-year elixir and Sisay herself as soon as she came out. The hate was strong that game...and it was also Karrthus, who has access to ramp spells. Unfortunately, I lost because I dedicated all my resources to neutering her while player three just wound up for the knock out punch on me.
The problem with doing that with Kaalia is that once you start hating someone off the board with her, your presences scares the ever loving crap out of everyone else and they'll do everything they can to kill you before you can deal with Sisay, letting her crawl back in and snatch victory from under their nose.
There's also a crap ton of maelstrom wanderer decks running around. My Numot deck (which I'm hoping to get some time to put up soon) is better tuned for it, but Kaalia has a hard time matching up to that speed without getting preemptively clipped if she hits the field naked.
Ironically, both sisay and maelstrom are regulars at my more competitive closed group of four every sunday, so the lgs has become something of a training grounds for me.
Weight of Spires might be alright, but Grab the Reigns is too costly for my taste. But if you run reanimator Kaalia with plenty of sac outlets, I could see it pulling some decent weight. Damnation could be a good replacement for Akroma's Vengeance, but I think All is Dust might have to be the solution. If they're out, we probably haven't wrathed away the lands yet and probably have the mana to cast it. Probably for Akroma's Vengeance.
So current question: What removal currently on the list should I swap out for Terminate (first choice), Dreadbore (second choice since it saves us from wasting time with walkers'), or Wrecking Ball (nice cuz it hits lands for us)?
Mortify might be the unlucky card I would remove. You already run hide // seek and wear // tear, aka enchantment/artifact removal, so taking out mortify might be safe. Sounds pretty scary that you're considering swapping out path or swords, but I suppose it is for the better. I would not consider running wrecking ball though, I can hardly see you destroying a single land, unless some opponent got mana screwed and you screw him even further since the spell costs 4 mana.
I'm sketchy with using all is dust, that's risking leftover artifacts for your opponents to still use. I do, however, like that permanents are sacrificed. Amongst my friends, they run indestructible permanents(spellbreaker behemoth, sapling of colfenor) which is a bit of a nuisance because with it being late game, I wouldn't have an answer. Then again, my meta isn't your meta.
My memory is a little fuzzy, did you run mistveil plains? I don't remember if I saw it in your list or not.
edit: now that I noticed, how often do you use seek's ability? I use that pretty often to take out ulamog
I see that blueram is not playing Aurelia, the Warleader, but did you know that Cloudshift can give you 3 attack phases? Simply Cloudshift Aurelia at the end of the first combat phase and she comes back into play with no memory of her former self.
If you already had Kaalia and Gisela on the board (non-summoning sick) you could technically swing for 20 points of damage 3 times in one turn!
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Only an turn after Aurelia was cheated in, unless you hard cast her.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Yep, yep, definitely was referring to a hard-cast of Aurelia.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Razia's Purification
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Hm. I'm intrigued by the possibility of Silence and Orim's Chant. I think I'd rather have some of the more reactive cards in my deck though since I don't want to preemptively use a card when they might not have an answer anyway.
Legion's Initiative is a card I'll definitely try and find room to carve out for. With all of these awesome cards as of late, it's getting really hard to keep certain things in. :/
I probably should look into Orzhov Charm at SOME point. I'm not a big fan of it's removal modular, and we can't really use it's reanimation modular with the current list, but bounce has been relevant before.
I thought about playing Aurelia in the deck, but the only copy I have is manning my Boros deck atm, centered around getting multiple attack steps within a single turn.
I can't really say since I never gave her a testing, but the mana cost seems kinda intensive for this deck. Not only that, but dropping her on turn six when we want Kaalia out by turn three or four seems a little slow. You can certainly build your deck around that if you want, of course, but mine just isn't tuned for that.
Excellent troll, sir, but I'll bite anyway.
I've tried playing Razia's Purification before, and it taught me something important: Cards that let your opponent decide things are usually pretty bad. By this, I mean cards that give final say like Vexing Devil are very hard to play with since they require head games and ideal scenarios which don't come up very often. More often than not I'd rather have a hard wrath than something that may let my opponent keep their biggest dude that's keeping Kaalia from swinging in. Not only that, but Avacyn can't protect us from it.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
First of all, I'm glad you like it!
Second of all, If you can't find posts about it, it probably wasn't brought up at all.
I'm actually not considering Sire of Insanity because I don't run a reanimation list. If I did, I would, and anyone else who does should really take a look at him. But I don't, so I'm still not.
Fourth of all, I ABSOLUTELY RESENT CALLING Master of Cruelties AN AUTO-INCLUDE. It is by NO MEANS an auto-include, it never WILL be an auto-include (at least for this type of deck), and I will personally drop kick anyone in my local area who calls it as such.
There are VERY few cards I would consider an "auto-include", and those involve cards that are pretty easy to obtain, or help a deck so much in a specific way that I kind of have to scratch my head at why it isn't in there, particularly when you don't need to warp your deck around it to make it work. The best example would be Crib Swap in a Horde of Notions deck. Why wouldn't you want recurable removal if you're fine with paying eight mana to do it? It just makes too much sense not to.
So why don't I include a potential one-shot kill in the "auto-include" list of Kaalia? A couple of reasons.
1) It needs some set up to work.
Yes it's a one-shot kill, but that requires both Kaalia and Master to go unblocked first. Unless you're roaring ahead of everyone else with mana rocks and hitting them fast, chances are someone's going to have a blocker to take on the Master. It may or may not be the person that you need to kill, and it definitely depends on your meta.
2) The Meta
Because my meta uses a lot of little dudes like Wood Elves and Solemn Simulacrum, the Master is going to be blocked more often than not and is just going to sit on the board, doing nothing while I try and get more Kaalia swings going. Best case scenario, someone panics and he eats some removal for us.
It's like trying to play my Karador deck sometimes. If I'm playing in a meta with a lot of graveyard hate, then the deck has a really hard time of winning.
3)The Nature of Multiplayer
If you're wrathing away everyone's lands with Kaalia on board, you've pretty much won the game by this point. If you're doing it when it's just the Master, all you've done is find a way to get everyone to one life without winning. The flash in trick is something that works as a very powerful combination...against a single player. After that, the Master doesn't do anything except guard for us because of his "exalted" restriction....though I admit that would make for a cool exalted deck idea.
4) He warps the deck...somewhat
If you run more sac outlets than I do, then he gets A LOT better because of support like Phyrexian Reclamation. But you need to be running a reanimator build rather than the build we have here which is, "play Kaalia, wrath away the lands so they can't deal with her". The deck is focused on Kaalia, but if you want to get maximum usage out of Master then Kaalia just becomes an enabler and the Master pretty much takes over the deck. Yes, you can also run bounce effects with Orzhov Charm and Oni of Wild Places, like some people do for Rakdos. There's nothing wrong with that per se, it's just not the way I want to build the deck. Speaking of which...
5) This Deck Is Built for Land Wraths, not Reanimation/etc
I've mentioned it several times by now, but it's worth saying again: I think he would do well in a reanimation version of Kaalia that wants to get dudes back into her hand for re-use, but we don't do that. We pretty much shotgun out creatures with Kaalia, and hope everyone lives until we can cast Armageddon.
A big reason I don't like calling a card an "auto-include" is because so many different decks want to different things. Even someone as seemingly narrow as Kaalia can be built in multiple different ways. Straight forward aggro (like ours), reanimation, control...you can even go cleric tribal if you want or just play with a "who's who" of your favorite angels, demons, and dragons. You can make it tribal for any of her three types and use her as an enabler.
My point is, an "auto-include" doesn't care what sort of deck it's going into. Master of Cruelties does, a lot.
6) I Despise "Cheap Knock-Outs".
This might be my inner hipster talking but I don't like one-shot kills, especially when it requires so few cards. Two cards like Kaalia/Master, Niv-Mizzet/Curiousity...I REALLY don't like using them, at least in mutiplayer. If I were running a one-vs.-one list like 3drinks is, THEN I'd say Master is an auto-include no problem since two-player commander is a lot more focused on efficient decks that can win.
The Master is a real "feel bad" card in that it can come out of nowhere and absolutely ruin a game for someone where they sit around waiting for the next game to start because now Master can't kill anyone else. Granted, land wraths can do that too, but at least they usually end the game for EVERYONE when it's cast and lets everyone shuffle up for a new game right away (which happens every time I cast Armageddon to win). I prefer my games to involve lots of interactivity until I'm ready to seal my win.
This is BY FAR one of the bigget reasons I don't consider Master an "auto-include", but it's the biggest. Auto-includes are acceptable in nearly every meta, whereas I can see lots of people getting frustrated and upset at Master.
If there's an open slot in the future for my deck, or my primary group gets reeeeeally competitive, THEN I'll consider putting him in there. As it is, I'm not bothering to run him.
UPDATE!!!
Bought a box and a fatpack of Dragon's Maze today, so I got some nice stuff that I WILL be adding to Kaalia.
Orim's Thunder -> Wear // Tear
I never really get the full value off of OT, so I'm going with a much better two-for-one with the split card. The split card is also a lot cheaper to cast when I only one target, and casting it for three is what I usually do for OT anyway. I'll add the thunder back in if I need more enchantment/artifact removal, but since my regular group has a bigger problem with powerful enchantments/artifacts than creatures, I think the new option might prove more effective.
Promise of Power -> Obzedat's Aid
I'm not sure how much cutting card draw will hurt me, but the triple black and five life was a little much at times for me. Here, I'm opting for a much more easily cast spell, and one that acts as reanimation for ANY permanent in our graveyard, which I like. I'd been looking for a way to get some more reanimation into this deck (just enough to have a back up in case high-powered cards like Avacyn died off), and this one fits the bill. Hopefully it'll work out as well as I think it does.
I also got a foil Legion's Initiative, but I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut for it. Maybe Sword of War and Peace? I still like it for its protection, and I haven't had a chance to properly test it out yet, so I'll keep it in mind for the future.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Just use card and /card surrounding each with its own set of brackets or use the little button you'll see that looks like a card on on the post dash.
And yes, those cards have been considered, but unless you're specifically building your deck around extra attacks with all sorts of haste effects (Urabrask, Fervor, and [cardAnger[/card] to name a few), I genuinely find extra attack steps to be wasted in Kaalia because the creatures she flashes in can't attack again due to summoning sickness.
Furthermore, I'm just not a fan of infinite combos to begin with and I consider them extremely cheap, even it's an attacking one. I have an infinite combo in my Aurelia deck, but by the deck's nature I'm unlikely to draw into it so I don't mind as much. With this deck, if I wanted to focus on the combo, I'd start tutoring for it, and then it'd be less Kaalia and more combo.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I was playing a game with Kaalia where one person was playing Jhoira chaos, one was playing Cromat, and yet another was using some sort of blue artifact deck. Regardless, I wasn't worried about spot removal for this one. Because of that, I was comfortable with dropping Kaalia without protection and cast Armageddon the turn after dropping Gisela. I killed Jhoira and Cromat pretty quickly, but not before drawing seven with a Jin-Gitaxias that my Lord of the Void grabbed from Jhoira, and making everyone else ditch their hands.
My only concern was artifact guy and how his Steel Overseer had pumped an army of thopters that swung at me for lethal as soon as I'd killed the other two players.
This is where it gets cool.
First I used Cloudshift on my Rune-Scarred Demon to get myself a blocker, with the bonus of tutoring up a card (grabbing Avacyn). Then, I blocked his strongest dude, preventing significant damage and killing the demon, only to be brought back by Angelic Renewal and letting me tutor for another card (Akroma's Vengeance). I swung with my team at him, dropped Avacyn with Kaalia, and then wrathed away the last of his board to force a scoop out of him.
So ya...I like Renewal now. Looking forward to seeing how it works against my normal group.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
That's why Torpor Orb is so good.
Seriously, I like to play it in any deck that doesn't use a lot of ETB effects itself and it completely hoses a lot of the more "finely tuned" decks in my meta. Beautiful thing, that.
And ya, I thought I would like Master of Cruelties too, especially after I learned how it worked, but the more I looked through my deck to make cuts and thought about how it played, the more I realized that this isn't the deck to make it work. If I were making some changes for 1-on-1 I'd add it in no questions asked, but as is, we need more reliable options.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Heck ya! Glad to see more believers in Angelic Renewal!
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
DO WANT and will be applying to my groups immediately, official applications be damned.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
WBR Kaalia of the VastWBR
W Kemba, Kha RegentW
WUBX Sharuum the HegemonWUBX
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge UBR
Modern:
X Affinity X
"It's easy to see the bright side of other people's problems"
Thanks! Yes, Sunforger has always been a pet card of mine. I've thought about taking it before, but every time I do I look at our toolbox and remember just how much reach it gives us in multiplayer dog-fights when we can't cast Armageddon on turn five like we'd want to. I love it so much I made a Numot Sunforger-control list that plays a lot of the good white and red counterspells...hm...I need to put that list up soon....
As for extra combat steps, it really depends on how you want to build your deck. You certainly CAN build Kaalia to take advantage of those, but there are a few downsides:
1) A lot of them only untap creatures that "attacked". Since the creatures that Kaalia flashes never declared an attack, they don't get the benefit of the attack step.
2) Unless they have haste (like Akroma), they won't get to attack even if they untap. Unless you have a hand chocked full of angels, demons, or dragons, Kaalia's going to be swinging by herself most of the time since our creatures are usually such high priorities for spot removal too.
3) As I mentioned above, unless you have a hand chock full of A/D/D, then Kaalia lacks the punch to really make use of those effects. This is a deck that tends to run out of cards pretty quickly, so unless you have a way to constantly keep a fresh grip of cards (somewhat hard to do in these colors), then the effect is minimal.
But like I said, if that's the route you want to go with your deck, it's definitely doable, you just have to overcome those three obstacles.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
If you run Sunforger, don't forget another one of blueram's pet cards: Cloudshift! Cloudshift is amazing for dodging spot-removal or reusing ETB effects.
I am using Aurelia, the Warleader in my Kaalia deck right now with above-average results:
DRAWBACKS:
If you sneak her in with Kaalia her ability will NOT trigger that turn.
If she attacks outright with Kaalia, and you sneak an A/D/D into play, that particular A/D/D will not be able to attack in combat phase 2 due to summoning sickness.
That being said.
Turn 3 Kaalia, Equip Greaves, Attack, Sneak Aurelia in. (1 attack phase)
Turn 4 Attack with Kaalia + Aurelia, Sneak in Gisela. Attack Again (Gisela cannot attack), Sneak in another A/D/D.
Turn 5 Win Game. Attack with Kaalia + Aurelia + Gisela + A/D/D... twice. Win-more
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
So do you have any suggestions for generating more card advantage? I have Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon but are there any other consistent ways to draw cards?
WBR Kaalia of the VastWBR
W Kemba, Kha RegentW
WUBX Sharuum the HegemonWUBX
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge UBR
Modern:
X Affinity X
"It's easy to see the bright side of other people's problems"
Aurelia I actually consider to be okay. I'd be much more willing to give her a test run (and pretty excited to try it too) IF it didn't require me to cut any of the amazing creatures I'm already packing. From a pure competitive standpoint, I should have cut Akroma by now, but she gets a pass for being one of my all-time favorite cards ever so no dice.
It's a good problem to have when you have TONS of quality creatures coming out every set that seem to slot in very nicely for Kaalia, particuarly since angels, demons, and dragons are some of the best supported higher-rarity tribes in Magic.
And yes, Cloudshift is teh r0x0r
Necropotence is mana-intensive, but is GREAT card draw and should really be run in any black deck that needs a full grip. The only downside is that when we use life as a resource, we tend to burn through it pretty quickly, especially if people are trying to kill us (and they will). Fortunately, there are enough lifelink angels out there (like Baneslayer Angel) that you can run to get it back. There's also Vault of the Archangel which I've come to love, just because it's a relevant mana sink that makes Kaalia a lot less appealing to block and makes Balefire Dragon absolutely nuts. I also ran Promise of Power and still run Sword of Fire and Ice for some nice draw power. PoP recently came out of my list, but it's a solid one-shot effect.
For my purposes though (in addition to the above), I run a small amount of "wheel" effects, cards that force everyone to discard their hand to draw seven new cards.
Reforge the Soul is great because it's miracle cost gives us disruption when played with Top, and is relatively cheap to cast without the MC, AND can be set up with Liliana's tutor ability (I LOVE doing that and have done so multiple times). Dragon Mage can be cheated in with Kaalia AND draws you those cards you need. I usually try to use him last if I have cards I want to use, but sometimes you might need to just get some new cards, even if it means abandoning one or two otherwise sweet cards.
The bonus of using wheel effects is that if you play in a combo-based meta (like I was for a while), playing one late when people are holding game-winners absolutely hoses their plan. Again, RtS is AWESOME for this strategy if you combine it with top after they've drawn their tutored-game-winner (by drawing it on their turn).
...that reminds me, I need to get an ACTUAL Wheel of Fortune for this deck at some point...
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Similar to blueram's perspective on wheel effects. My card draw consists of Dragon Mage and Wheel of Fortune (I don't run Top so Wheel works better for me at :2mana::symr:)
My black card draw includes Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon like you mentioned, but Disciple of Bolas is also really, really good. Especially when you have an idle Rakdos the Defiler sitting on the battlefield)
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Changes:
Looking through the list earlier this week, I realized that I lacked a lot of "catch-up" power. With this in mind, I swapped Boom // Bust for Merciless Eviction. Another sweeper was sorely needed, and Bust isn't necessarily the best land wipe we have. Sometimes you just gotta deal with dudes. :/
It's been a while since I've played Kaalia at the LGS. Unfortunately, most of it was spent fighting from under an Iona locking me out white, and subsequently most of my spells. I was also denied from Kaalia a lot with all of the Elesh Norns running around.
This has finally convinced me to look VERY closely for something to cut for Legion's Initiative. I've been wanting to add it for a while (particularly since I pulled a foil version from my fat pack when DGM was released), but had a hard time making cuts.
This is potentially a bad move considering how hungry Kaalia is for a grip of cards, but I'm making the experimental move of cutting Phyrexian Arena for LI. If Elesh Norn is going to dominate my meta, then I need to find every way possible I can use to Keep Kaalia alive, and anthem effects that double as anti-wrath tech really do the trick. Sword of War and Peace has been relevant so far just because it stops Kaalia from being path'd, swords'd, chaos warp'd, or any given burn spell. We rarely have cards in our hand to use the life gain, and the hand-based burn varies, so it's continuing to see play for the protection more than anything else. It DOES work nicely with Necropotence though.
With that said, I played three games with Kaalia (I think) and won the last one. Toward the beginning, I swung Kaalia at the Maelstrom Wanderer player and flashed in a Lord of the Void. No blockers, I used Boros Charm to give the Lord double strike, and Maelstrom immediately scooped. I mean, jesus. He'd already cast Maelstom by that point and got a couple of dudes out of it and he starts calling me out as the dick at the table just because I'm playing Kaalia.
Honestly, it's because of attitudes like this that I have no qualms using Armageddon as a win-con. That and the Sisay player calling me out for having Armageddon when he takes 20 mins to tutor every game and builds a board state of Avacyn, Elesh, and Iona every game.
Whatever. I'm off to update the deck list.
EDIT: Deck has FINALLY been updated! Geez, you'd think I would have noticed that I cut stuff like Eternal Dragon out sooner.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Wear // Tear is a card I added as well. I mean, I liked Return to Dust but the WW and extra mana left me high and dry sometimes.
Obzedat's Aid. I also thought about this one. How do you like it so far? I passed on this card because there was not a lot of non-creature permanents in my graveyard that would justify running this over Reanimate.
Legion's Initiative is some-good. You won't regret adding it.
It seems to me more-and-more lately, that Magic players get ticked off at anyone that doesn't try to win the same way they do. IMO, Maelstrom is way more degenerate than Kaalia... They can cascade into Jokulhops or Apocalypse (I think) and have Maelstrom as the only permanent on the table. Seen it many times.
Elesh has also been rearing its ugly head at our table lately... let me know if you find more ways to get around her. For now, I am considering even more spot removal.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
I ended up cutting Eternal Dragon because what I needed was a faster start, not long-term land drops. He got cut for a mana rock, and I've been pretty happy with that. I've only ever used him to fetch a plains ONCE per game because it's so costly to bring him back. He's great when you don't have anything else to do, but if that's happening, we're going to need more than a simple dragon. I'd prefer to keep mana open for a top-decked fatty.
Obzedat's Aid hasn't seen TOO much play as of yet just because I haven't drawn it. It's a good tutor target though, so I'm keeping that in mind. At least Sword of War and Peace is pulling its weight just for the protection and the buff on Kaalia.
I've been wondering if I just don't have enough removal PERIOD, because if Iona declares white, I have virtually no way to get rid of her, save combat and Chaos Warp. Of course, trying to open other colors diminishes the value of the Sunforger packages somewhat.
I'm at least giving Tragic Slip a look just because it gets around the Iona lock and kills Avacyn.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Why not race them to see who gets Iona first, if you call white before they do, that should prevent them from casting a bunch of spells as well. Of course, worst case scenario, you are going to need to find black/red removal. Having diversity in removal is always good, though it's difficult to find them in Kaalia's colors.
What's the scenario in your meta anyway? Which opponents of yours run Iona and what colors do they run?
Tragic Slip seems okay, but meeting the conditions for morbid seems iffy to me. In a multiplayer game, when Iona comes out, that should be nearing end game status. So either Iona gets wiped by a form of mass removal, or gets destroyed by a non-white spell. Sure, you or your opponents can chump and Tragic Slip Iona that way, but if it was you who had to chump, you'd be losing a creature ]:
If you're that late into a game, assuming you haven't used armageddon, would it be safe to suggest Weight of Spires? It may be creature specific as well, but it also supports the sunforger package and slaps things silly.
Just my two cents [:
I'm gonna go out on a super, thin limb here and really stretch for an answer... maybe a brainstorming session to combat Elesh and Iona...
Grab the Reins. Take their Iona or Elesh and throw her back at them with Entwine? Grasping for straws on this one, but it IS a desperation Sunforger target (minus Entwine cost).
Damnation. Black Wrath of God... to replace one of the white sweepers?
Shadowborn Demon from M14. 3BB Destroy target non-Demon creature when it ETB... sacrifice during upkeep though.
Elesh has been popping up during some of our matches but lately, I only see Iona if someone uses Bribery on my deck.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
First of all, let me just say that I'm an idiot for forgetting that Wrecking Ball, Terminate, and Dreadbore are still cards. The first two even work with sunforger. I'll have to change up some of the removal...I may even end up cutting Path just to diversify the colors.
Second, thank you and welcome! Glad this primer is still helping people, though I wish more of them would comment and share their experiences (I'll catch up to you yet 3drinks!!! *shakes fist*).
Racing for Iona sounds like something that's doable if we get a tutor or lucky on the draw.
So far though, the problem's been the same: SISAY. If I don't deal with sisay swiftly and quickly, I start having problems. There was a game where I managed to shut down a Sisay by not only dropping Stranglehold, but by blowing up Thousand-year elixir and Sisay herself as soon as she came out. The hate was strong that game...and it was also Karrthus, who has access to ramp spells. Unfortunately, I lost because I dedicated all my resources to neutering her while player three just wound up for the knock out punch on me.
The problem with doing that with Kaalia is that once you start hating someone off the board with her, your presences scares the ever loving crap out of everyone else and they'll do everything they can to kill you before you can deal with Sisay, letting her crawl back in and snatch victory from under their nose.
There's also a crap ton of maelstrom wanderer decks running around. My Numot deck (which I'm hoping to get some time to put up soon) is better tuned for it, but Kaalia has a hard time matching up to that speed without getting preemptively clipped if she hits the field naked.
Ironically, both sisay and maelstrom are regulars at my more competitive closed group of four every sunday, so the lgs has become something of a training grounds for me.
Weight of Spires might be alright, but Grab the Reigns is too costly for my taste. But if you run reanimator Kaalia with plenty of sac outlets, I could see it pulling some decent weight. Damnation could be a good replacement for Akroma's Vengeance, but I think All is Dust might have to be the solution. If they're out, we probably haven't wrathed away the lands yet and probably have the mana to cast it. Probably for Akroma's Vengeance.
So current question: What removal currently on the list should I swap out for Terminate (first choice), Dreadbore (second choice since it saves us from wasting time with walkers'), or Wrecking Ball (nice cuz it hits lands for us)?
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I'm sketchy with using all is dust, that's risking leftover artifacts for your opponents to still use. I do, however, like that permanents are sacrificed. Amongst my friends, they run indestructible permanents(spellbreaker behemoth, sapling of colfenor) which is a bit of a nuisance because with it being late game, I wouldn't have an answer. Then again, my meta isn't your meta.
My memory is a little fuzzy, did you run mistveil plains? I don't remember if I saw it in your list or not.
edit: now that I noticed, how often do you use seek's ability? I use that pretty often to take out ulamog