Good news, blueram! I've been looking at the decklist on the first page, and it looks like you have 99 Cards including Kaalia. So you can slot in a Theros card of your choice without making any cuts.
Whip of Erebos - I like being able to give all of our huge guys lifelink and just make the crackback from other players that much easier to endure. It's a great way to re-use some of our ETB creatures, and cloudshift makes sure that the guy gets to stick around (though Angel of Serenity also works here).
Got my hands on a foil whip but have yet to draw it in a game, going to keep it in the deck to test it out for a while. The prospect of having Kaalia die then getting to use her again next turn for 4 mana is indeed very enticing. If anything it is another sort of lifelink and recursion which we are always looking for.
Nothing else really outstanding from the set, Read the Bones replaced Ancient Craving for me as I can cast it on curve to help find that pesky forth land if I kept a greedy hand.
Good news, blueram! I've been looking at the decklist on the first page, and it looks like you have 99 Cards including Kaalia. So you can slot in a Theros card of your choice without making any cuts.
Wait...what?! Gimme a sec... *goes off to count cards in deck*
No, I definitely have 100 cards IRL. I'm probably just missing one on the list. ^^; Oh boy, figuring out which one is gonna be fun....
Speaking of fun, I LOVE some of the new cards that got spoiled! =D The two I like so far:
Angel of Finality - DEFINITELY gotta find a spot for this beauty! Graveyard hate all day~ Turn Cloudshift into insta-speed Bojuka Bog? Angelic Renewal? Karmic Guide? I can play easily w/o Kaalia? INNISTRAD BASED ART HRRRRRNGGGGG. *ahem* Yes, seems quite good.
Opal Palace - getting a +1/+1 counter might not seem like a big deal for most generals, but on Kaalia, that's HUGE. One casting means that she can survive Elesh Norn! A bigger body means she can fly into more things without worrying about trading with a chumper. Not only that, but I've frequently been finding that I have 5 mana on turn three or four anyway, so the downside is nominal, especially since it can fix for any color. Thoughts?
Opal Palace - getting a +1/+1 counter might not seem like a big deal for most generals, but on Kaalia, that's HUGE. One casting means that she can survive Elesh Norn! A bigger body means she can fly into more things without worrying about trading with a chumper. Not only that, but I've frequently been finding that I have 5 mana on turn three or four anyway, so the downside is nominal, especially since it can fix for any color. Thoughts?
The Elesh Norn thing isn't bad, but the rest doesn't seem as big a deal. If they're trading against Kaalia with a 2/2 we still have some large guy who just landed on the table, so she did her job. The fixing aspect I feel depends on the quality of your landbase; I decided to invest heavily in my Kaalia so pretty much every land is dual, fetch, or utility, so the mana fixing isn't necessary. If you're on a more budget Kaalia then you're more likely to appreciate the fixing and more likely to not be going for the explosive turn 3/4 Kaalia swing.
I don't see Ravages of War anywhere. I think it would be much better than Catastrophe because I don't see many situations where you'd want to destroy all creatures, since you're the one who should be swarming with them. And you're already running Armageddon, so why not add Ravages, a really ridiculously redundant reprint?
I don't see Ravages of War anywhere. I think it would be much better than Catastrophe because I don't see many situations where you'd want to destroy all creatures, since you're the one who should be swarming with them. And you're already running Armageddon, so why not add Ravages, a really ridiculously redundant reprint?
My guess would be because most people don't have money for expensive Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprints.
Something that I've been using to great effect recently is Knollspine Dragon. You can Cloud Shift it for immense value. It's not uncommon that I'm drawing 10-20 cards with this baby. Note that you must discard your hand that the ability is a may.
For lockdown and mana control you can try Winter Orb, Global Ruin, or Desolation. All budget friendly, efficient and effective.
I like Necrologia better than Necropotence in Kaalia. Reason being that the discarded cards aren't exiled. With cards like Living Death, this can be a huge difference. It's also less heavy on the B. BBB can be hard to get early on when you need it.
I think you exagerate about Opal Palace, mana is a challenge in Kaalia as it is, especially when trying to maximize ability to get Kaalia out by turn 4 consistently and 3 sometimes with all 3 colours. This is not only a filter land, but outside your commander, who will die often, it's win more, it makes Kaalia cost one more each time than it should.
The angel may have a role, but the palace is not meant for this deck. If Elesh Norn is killing Kaalia then you have other issues to deal with, including why cant deal with it or have a stable position by the time it happens.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
My guess would be because most people don't have money for expensive Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprints.
Woah. I never saw the price of that card. I thought it was just a functional reprint, not a Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprint. Did they have mass burnings of boxes of that set or something? Well, regardless, the card something that with a huge budget might be worth it, but now I understand why I don't see it much.
The Elesh Norn thing isn't bad, but the rest doesn't seem as big a deal. If they're trading against Kaalia with a 2/2 we still have some large guy who just landed on the table, so she did her job. The fixing aspect I feel depends on the quality of your landbase; I decided to invest heavily in my Kaalia so pretty much every land is dual, fetch, or utility, so the mana fixing isn't necessary. If you're on a more budget Kaalia then you're more likely to appreciate the fixing and more likely to not be going for the explosive turn 3/4 Kaalia swing.
I think you exagerate about Opal Palace, mana is a challenge in Kaalia as it is, especially when trying to maximize ability to get Kaalia out by turn 4 consistently and 3 sometimes with all 3 colours. This is not only a filter land, but outside your commander, who will die often, it's win more, it makes Kaalia cost one more each time than it should.
The angel may have a role, but the palace is not meant for this deck. If Elesh Norn is killing Kaalia then you have other issues to deal with, including why cant deal with it or have a stable position by the time it happens.
I actually don't want to be trading Kaalia with anything, truth be told. Hence why I've given her a suit of swords (may be adding Feast/famine in the future
) to help up her body/give her evasion. I run Legion's Initiative primarily because it gives her that one extra bonus in toughness. The wrath evasion is just a bonus. Elesh Norn is quite rampant in meta. I can have the answer to one, but as soon as someone gets rid of it, another is sure to show up, and I don't always have a sword/LI to pump her. At that point, it becomes very annoying because momentum has been disturbed and it locks me out of Kaalia until LI comes into play.
As for land bases, you can see that I'm clearly running as many duals/fetches/etc as I can be (minus the off-color fetches because those leave a horrible taste in my mouth). I still have games where I have a problem getting mana set right, but I more often find games where I go from having 3 to 5 mana, and always feel like I have some sort of missed opportunity. Truthfully, I don't mind paying an extra mana if it means she gets a better chance at surviving.
I don't see Ravages of War anywhere. I think it would be much better than Catastrophe because I don't see many situations where you'd want to destroy all creatures, since you're the one who should be swarming with them. And you're already running Armageddon, so why not add Ravages, a really ridiculously redundant reprint?
Woah. I never saw the price of that card. I thought it was just a functional reprint, not a Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprint. Did they have mass burnings of boxes of that set or something? Well, regardless, the card something that with a huge budget might be worth it, but now I understand why I don't see it much.
Pretty much. It'd be an AMAZING card to have in this deck and I'd run it without a second thought if I had that kind of money to blow on a single piece of cardboard. Of course, the recent reprints in the new precons give me hope that Wizards will find a good place to reprint RoW in the future.
The reason any given PTK card is worth so much is because it was exclusively a release in the asian market to drive up interest there, from what I understand. It's (I believe) the only set to reference real world events, and to use actual guns. It is much hunted and cherished by collectors anywhere who can get an original PTK print. Hell, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is leagues cheaper as a JUDGE PROMO than it's original printing.
Something that I've been using to great effect recently is Knollspine Dragon. You can Cloud Shift it for immense value. It's not uncommon that I'm drawing 10-20 cards with this baby. Note that you must discard your hand that the ability is a may.
For lockdown and mana control you can try Winter Orb, Global Ruin, or Desolation. All budget friendly, efficient and effective.
I like Necrologia better than Necropotence in Kaalia. Reason being that the discarded cards aren't exiled. With cards like Living Death, this can be a huge difference. It's also less heavy on the B. BBB can be hard to get early on when you need it.
Woah, woah, woah, woah there man. I like you, but I have one major problem with something you just said. I'm a strong proponent that there is very rarely something that "just goes in every X deck" because of different metas/play styles/etc. Allow me to go through why I personally choose to avoid reanimation as a sub-theme for my deck so you can understand where I'm coming from.
1) Graveyard hate is very strong in my meta
Some playgroups have the luxury of doing anything they please because their meta is lighter than they should be on graveyard hate. My meta doesn't have that problem. It's not to the point where graveyard based decks are completely hosed (I still do well with Karador), but using it as a back up or sub theme becomes a lot harder when you have people readily using Tormod's Crypt. That and Bojuka Bog is one of the few cards that I do consider a "staple", as in every black deck ever runs it.
2) It disrupts the flow of my game plan
Because the deck wants to hit hard and fast, I find I usually play one of two ways depending on my opening hand:
A) Super fast aggressive where I've dropped my entire hand by turns 4-5
B) I can't get a fast start, so I sit back and wait for initial removal to be gone and I can protect Kaalia with same-turn equipment suit ups.
I use reanimation to get things back just like everyone else, but it's more for utility purposes than as a sub-theme so that I'm not as hurt when graveyard hate gets directed towards me. Not only that, but then I'm not as hurt when somebody decides they want to loot my graveyard (which does happen quite often) for what's usually the best body around.
3) I only have so many card slots
This fits in with #2, but I'm so focused on voltroning up Kaalia and being aggressive that I don't have a lot of flexibility with this deck. I could definitely rework it to be that way, but the way I like to play Kaalia is that "all-in" game plan that comes from spitting out an angel/demon/dragon every turn. Any major sub themes take away from that plan's effectiveness. Yes, it means that I'm usually hosed if Kaalia gets tucked and I can't get her back, but I'm willing to take that risk.
With that said, I certainly DO encourage other players to try reanimation builds and I reference reanimation quite a bit when looking at new cards because I understand that a number of players really like that sort of thing. I do too, just not for my deck.
You mention a lot of good cards worth running. Obzedat's Aid is in the list because it literally gets back anything the deck needs back, including enchantments, Liliana, equipment, in addition to the regular fatty. I like the flexibility more than speed, but it's been worth it so far. Winter Orb isn't a card I'd like to run, period. Although it's usually just as effective as a land wipe at slowing down opponent's, I don't care for how it just "grinds the game down". Yes, I'm still cheating dudes into play with Kaalia, but I'm usually focusing on one player while I do that. Meanwhile, the other 1-2 players have untapped enough lands to deal with it and will punish me with whatever's been building in their hands. Land wipes get rid of their resources completely and force them to top deck ways to play. I also find that the land wipes tend to get more "wins by concession" than a winter orb does because the land wipes can be so demoralizing or game deciding. The same can be said about your other suggestions. Fine cards, but not what this deck wants to use for any of the above.
I also just happen to think of the orb as a "douchey-card" in general, but I know my opinion isn't shared by everyone either. That's just my personal preference.
I don't play 1-v-1 in my store, so I don't really care for one-shot effects most of the time when they canabalize my life and are less than recurable. Necropotence might be a bad thing to have when I'm using Sire of Insanity, but at least I can get it back with Obzedat's Aid or Sun Titan. It's also tutorable with Enlightened Tutor, turning one card into a full hand. It's mana intensive, yes, but actually don't want it early game so much as mid-to-late when I need more gas, so I'm fine with this.
Thanks for all the comments guys. I appreciate having debates on this thread, as well as general feedback. It's a good exercise in justifying why I'm running certain cards over others.
I haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if he has ever been considered but what about the Master of Cruelties?
I see him in a lot of Kaalia decks.
I really like him in 1-v-1 builds, no question. I don't particularly care for him here just because getting to one-shot somebody isn't really enough to justify him when I have 2-3 other people to kill. It's a handly little trick, but I prefer to get more utility out of my card slots than to have a guy who's just going to end up blocking for me the rest of the game.
That said...I could see myself trying him out in the future if I could figure out what I'd cut...
Woah. I never saw the price of that card. I thought it was just a functional reprint, not a Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprint. Did they have mass burnings of boxes of that set or something? Well, regardless, the card something that with a huge budget might be worth it, but now I understand why I don't see it much.
Personally for the price of Ravages, I'd rather obtain a Moat. On Magic Online I actually have Ravages and 'Geddon and...I cut Ravages. With Cataclysm and Armageddon in conjunction with the tutours we can play, I haven't had a problem obtaining a 'Geddon when I need it (and I never want multiples of it). 'Clysm is sheer destructive power, and 'Geddon is great to close a game once I am set up - and drawing another 'Geddon does not help me at all.
Of course I can't speak for BlueRam, but this is what I've figured out over the time that my own Primer has been in service.
I really like him in 1-v-1 builds, no question. I don't particularly care for him here just because getting to one-shot somebody isn't really enough to justify him when I have 2-3 other people to kill. It's a handly little trick, but I prefer to get more utility out of my card slots than to have a guy who's just going to end up blocking for me the rest of the game.
That said...I could see myself trying him out in the future if I could figure out what I'd cut...
If I play Kaalia 1v1 then Master of Cruelties[/card] replaces Aurelia, the Warleader in my build. Otherwise I would feel awful to "one-shot" an opponent on turn 3 or 4 knocking them out of the game and force them to sit and watch the rest of us finish a game that could take a long time. (Unless of course we are playing in a competitive environment for prizes :cool2:)
Personally for the price of Ravages, I'd rather obtain a Moat. On Magic Online I actually have Ravages and 'Geddon and...I cut Ravages. With Cataclysm and Armageddon in conjunction with the tutours we can play, I haven't had a problem obtaining a 'Geddon when I need it (and I never want multiples of it). 'Clysm is sheer destructive power, and 'Geddon is great to close a game once I am set up - and drawing another 'Geddon does not help me at all.
This. Yuuuup.
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If I play Kaalia 1v1 then Master of Cruelties[/card] replaces Aurelia, the Warleader in my build. Otherwise I would feel awful to "one-shot" an opponent on turn 3 or 4 knocking them out of the game and force them to sit and watch the rest of us finish a game that could take a long time. (Unless of course we are playing in a competitive environment for prizes :cool2:).
It is a great threat tool. Almost an on-site-required-kill. I use it mainly to slow down whoever is pumping out creatures or ramp. Aiming for the little guy does nothing.
It is a great threat tool. Almost an on-site-required-kill. I use it mainly to slow down whoever is pumping out creatures or ramp. Aiming for the little guy does nothing.
My problem is that he doesn't really have any sort of evasion. If they're already pumping out guys, isn't it likely that he'll just be chump blocked? If he naturally had flying, I'd consider him a little more because then he'd just block everything all day.
I wouldn't play MoC in multiplayer at all. It's just not strong enough to be worth a slot for "Whenever ~ kills a player, ~ gains Defender for the rest of the game."
I actually go back to playing Avacyn in that scenario, heh.
I wouldn't play MoC in multiplayer at all. It's just not strong enough to be worth a slot for "Whenever ~ kills a player, ~ gains Defender for the rest of the game."
I actually go back to playing Avacyn in that scenario, heh.
No, I totally believe preach that. I'm just saying I'd consider him a little more if he had natural evasion....of course, that'd be a little TOO crazy.
What is everyone's opinion on Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon? I know he doesn't work towards a common win condition as Kaalia or rest of her deck but, it might be a good way to deal with a life gain deck that has gotten out of control late game. Since we don't want to run something like big Sorin and Kaalia's commander damage takes a forever to finish a player off.
I think with the amount of recursion we run he might be worth running testing because he is always a 3 turn clock and can be given haste and regeneration. Not to mention he only cost 5 mana and is easily castable without Kaalia.
I just got my hands on a copy of him recently and I think I'll test him in the deck for a while since I like the art so much.
Kaalia's commander damage actually isn't too bad if you're suiting her up with Swords or Sunforger (delicious delicious Sunforger). I feel like that ends up being the better plan than running Skittles.
What is everyone's opinion on Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon? I know he doesn't work towards a common win condition as Kaalia or rest of her deck but, it might be a good way to deal with a life gain deck that has gotten out of control late game. Since we don't want to run something like big Sorin and Kaalia's commander damage takes a forever to finish a player off.
I think with the amount of recursion we run he might be worth running testing because he is always a 3 turn clock and can be given haste and regeneration. Not to mention he only cost 5 mana and is easily castable without Kaalia.
I just got my hands on a copy of him recently and I think I'll test him in the deck for a while since I like the art so much.
The problem with running Skittles is that, like you said, he doesn't really help with Kaalia's primary game plan. Because of that, he eats up a slot that you could be using to play someone who gives you much more versatile removal. If life gain is a problem for you, I heavily suggest running Erebos since he acts as an indestructible way to draw cards and has the neat side effect of denying life gain for your opponents.
What do you think about the possibility of going even deeper down the rabbit hole with land destruction?
I was playing around in my various deck building programs with lists that go as low as 9 creatures including Kaalia. The rest is all mass and targeted land removal, mana rocks, tutors, removal and indestructibility packages.
How many slots for land destruction is to many? Even if I'm going for that as the deck archetype.
Here is a list I'm going to start cutting and tweaking from:
What do you think about the possibility of going even deeper down the rabbit hole with land destruction?
I was playing around in my various deck building programs with lists that go as low as 9 creatures including Kaalia. The rest is all mass and targeted land removal, mana rocks, tutors, removal and indestructibility packages.
How many slots for land destruction is to many? Even if I'm going for that as the deck archetype.
Hmmm....well, if your playgroup is okay with not playing magic while you punch them in the face over and over, then by all means go for it. Personally, I feel 2-3 land wraths are perfectly acceptable if you're using them as wincons and have a good suite of tutors.
For you though? I honestly couldn't say. If that's your primary goal, then by all means continue to toy around with it.
I'm not a big fan of going that creature light in a Kaalia deck, but if you always have a fatty then it may work out. I'd try and add in some more beats though.
The group I play with runs some LD but not too much to where it hinders the entire game except for one deck that rarely gets played. I run Armageddon, a friend runs a few choice spells, one has Wasteland/Life from the Loam combo. I have been shut out of a game before because of tons of LD, I just picked up my deck and started playing something else til the game was done.
Hmmm....well, if your playgroup is okay with not playing magic while you punch them in the face over and over, then by all means go for it. Personally, I feel 2-3 land wraths are perfectly acceptable if you're using them as wincons and have a good suite of tutors.
For you though? I honestly couldn't say. If that's your primary goal, then by all means continue to toy around with it.
I'm not a big fan of going that creature light in a Kaalia deck, but if you always have a fatty then it may work out. I'd try and add in some more beats though.
Well if I do make the deck, which is no guarantee, it would only be something I would whip out when someone pulls some crap that pisses the entire LGS off. All the targeted LD would go at him making it so he just wouldn't be able to play.
The mass wipes would be to try to win once we've hated the other guy out. They wouldn't draw me all that much hate because when we run league there is a rule that says "if all lands would be destroyed, instead 75% are destroyed" (rounded down I think). Because of that a card like Cataclysm is far more hated then Armageddon.
Got my hands on a foil whip but have yet to draw it in a game, going to keep it in the deck to test it out for a while. The prospect of having Kaalia die then getting to use her again next turn for 4 mana is indeed very enticing. If anything it is another sort of lifelink and recursion which we are always looking for.
Nothing else really outstanding from the set, Read the Bones replaced Ancient Craving for me as I can cast it on curve to help find that pesky forth land if I kept a greedy hand.
Wait...what?! Gimme a sec... *goes off to count cards in deck*
No, I definitely have 100 cards IRL. I'm probably just missing one on the list. ^^; Oh boy, figuring out which one is gonna be fun....
Speaking of fun, I LOVE some of the new cards that got spoiled! =D The two I like so far:
Angel of Finality - DEFINITELY gotta find a spot for this beauty! Graveyard hate all day~ Turn Cloudshift into insta-speed Bojuka Bog? Angelic Renewal? Karmic Guide? I can play easily w/o Kaalia? INNISTRAD BASED ART HRRRRRNGGGGG. *ahem* Yes, seems quite good.
Opal Palace - getting a +1/+1 counter might not seem like a big deal for most generals, but on Kaalia, that's HUGE. One casting means that she can survive Elesh Norn! A bigger body means she can fly into more things without worrying about trading with a chumper. Not only that, but I've frequently been finding that I have 5 mana on turn three or four anyway, so the downside is nominal, especially since it can fix for any color. Thoughts?
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My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
The Elesh Norn thing isn't bad, but the rest doesn't seem as big a deal. If they're trading against Kaalia with a 2/2 we still have some large guy who just landed on the table, so she did her job. The fixing aspect I feel depends on the quality of your landbase; I decided to invest heavily in my Kaalia so pretty much every land is dual, fetch, or utility, so the mana fixing isn't necessary. If you're on a more budget Kaalia then you're more likely to appreciate the fixing and more likely to not be going for the explosive turn 3/4 Kaalia swing.
My guess would be because most people don't have money for expensive Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprints.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
For lockdown and mana control you can try Winter Orb, Global Ruin, or Desolation. All budget friendly, efficient and effective.
IMO, there are a lot better options (not all of them expensive) than Obzedat's Aid when it comes to reanimation or recursion, which should be a major sub theme of every Kaalia deck. Consider Living Death, Patriarch's Bidding, Reanimate, Breath of Life, Death or Glory, Twilight Shepherd (not in deck list but in description) and of course Yawgmoth's Will.
I like Necrologia better than Necropotence in Kaalia. Reason being that the discarded cards aren't exiled. With cards like Living Death, this can be a huge difference. It's also less heavy on the B. BBB can be hard to get early on when you need it.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
The angel may have a role, but the palace is not meant for this deck. If Elesh Norn is killing Kaalia then you have other issues to deal with, including why cant deal with it or have a stable position by the time it happens.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Woah. I never saw the price of that card. I thought it was just a functional reprint, not a Portal Three Kingdoms functional reprint. Did they have mass burnings of boxes of that set or something? Well, regardless, the card something that with a huge budget might be worth it, but now I understand why I don't see it much.
I actually don't want to be trading Kaalia with anything, truth be told. Hence why I've given her a suit of swords (may be adding Feast/famine in the future
) to help up her body/give her evasion. I run Legion's Initiative primarily because it gives her that one extra bonus in toughness. The wrath evasion is just a bonus. Elesh Norn is quite rampant in meta. I can have the answer to one, but as soon as someone gets rid of it, another is sure to show up, and I don't always have a sword/LI to pump her. At that point, it becomes very annoying because momentum has been disturbed and it locks me out of Kaalia until LI comes into play.
As for land bases, you can see that I'm clearly running as many duals/fetches/etc as I can be (minus the off-color fetches because those leave a horrible taste in my mouth). I still have games where I have a problem getting mana set right, but I more often find games where I go from having 3 to 5 mana, and always feel like I have some sort of missed opportunity. Truthfully, I don't mind paying an extra mana if it means she gets a better chance at surviving.
Pretty much. It'd be an AMAZING card to have in this deck and I'd run it without a second thought if I had that kind of money to blow on a single piece of cardboard. Of course, the recent reprints in the new precons give me hope that Wizards will find a good place to reprint RoW in the future.
The reason any given PTK card is worth so much is because it was exclusively a release in the asian market to drive up interest there, from what I understand. It's (I believe) the only set to reference real world events, and to use actual guns. It is much hunted and cherished by collectors anywhere who can get an original PTK print. Hell, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is leagues cheaper as a JUDGE PROMO than it's original printing.
Woah, woah, woah, woah there man. I like you, but I have one major problem with something you just said. I'm a strong proponent that there is very rarely something that "just goes in every X deck" because of different metas/play styles/etc. Allow me to go through why I personally choose to avoid reanimation as a sub-theme for my deck so you can understand where I'm coming from.
1) Graveyard hate is very strong in my meta
Some playgroups have the luxury of doing anything they please because their meta is lighter than they should be on graveyard hate. My meta doesn't have that problem. It's not to the point where graveyard based decks are completely hosed (I still do well with Karador), but using it as a back up or sub theme becomes a lot harder when you have people readily using Tormod's Crypt. That and Bojuka Bog is one of the few cards that I do consider a "staple", as in every black deck ever runs it.
2) It disrupts the flow of my game plan
Because the deck wants to hit hard and fast, I find I usually play one of two ways depending on my opening hand:
A) Super fast aggressive where I've dropped my entire hand by turns 4-5
B) I can't get a fast start, so I sit back and wait for initial removal to be gone and I can protect Kaalia with same-turn equipment suit ups.
I use reanimation to get things back just like everyone else, but it's more for utility purposes than as a sub-theme so that I'm not as hurt when graveyard hate gets directed towards me. Not only that, but then I'm not as hurt when somebody decides they want to loot my graveyard (which does happen quite often) for what's usually the best body around.
3) I only have so many card slots
This fits in with #2, but I'm so focused on voltroning up Kaalia and being aggressive that I don't have a lot of flexibility with this deck. I could definitely rework it to be that way, but the way I like to play Kaalia is that "all-in" game plan that comes from spitting out an angel/demon/dragon every turn. Any major sub themes take away from that plan's effectiveness. Yes, it means that I'm usually hosed if Kaalia gets tucked and I can't get her back, but I'm willing to take that risk.
With that said, I certainly DO encourage other players to try reanimation builds and I reference reanimation quite a bit when looking at new cards because I understand that a number of players really like that sort of thing. I do too, just not for my deck.
You mention a lot of good cards worth running. Obzedat's Aid is in the list because it literally gets back anything the deck needs back, including enchantments, Liliana, equipment, in addition to the regular fatty. I like the flexibility more than speed, but it's been worth it so far. Winter Orb isn't a card I'd like to run, period. Although it's usually just as effective as a land wipe at slowing down opponent's, I don't care for how it just "grinds the game down". Yes, I'm still cheating dudes into play with Kaalia, but I'm usually focusing on one player while I do that. Meanwhile, the other 1-2 players have untapped enough lands to deal with it and will punish me with whatever's been building in their hands. Land wipes get rid of their resources completely and force them to top deck ways to play. I also find that the land wipes tend to get more "wins by concession" than a winter orb does because the land wipes can be so demoralizing or game deciding. The same can be said about your other suggestions. Fine cards, but not what this deck wants to use for any of the above.
I also just happen to think of the orb as a "douchey-card" in general, but I know my opinion isn't shared by everyone either. That's just my personal preference.
I don't play 1-v-1 in my store, so I don't really care for one-shot effects most of the time when they canabalize my life and are less than recurable. Necropotence might be a bad thing to have when I'm using Sire of Insanity, but at least I can get it back with Obzedat's Aid or Sun Titan. It's also tutorable with Enlightened Tutor, turning one card into a full hand. It's mana intensive, yes, but actually don't want it early game so much as mid-to-late when I need more gas, so I'm fine with this.
Thanks for all the comments guys. I appreciate having debates on this thread, as well as general feedback. It's a good exercise in justifying why I'm running certain cards over others.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I see him in a lot of Kaalia decks.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I really like him in 1-v-1 builds, no question. I don't particularly care for him here just because getting to one-shot somebody isn't really enough to justify him when I have 2-3 other people to kill. It's a handly little trick, but I prefer to get more utility out of my card slots than to have a guy who's just going to end up blocking for me the rest of the game.
That said...I could see myself trying him out in the future if I could figure out what I'd cut...
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Personally for the price of Ravages, I'd rather obtain a Moat. On Magic Online I actually have Ravages and 'Geddon and...I cut Ravages. With Cataclysm and Armageddon in conjunction with the tutours we can play, I haven't had a problem obtaining a 'Geddon when I need it (and I never want multiples of it). 'Clysm is sheer destructive power, and 'Geddon is great to close a game once I am set up - and drawing another 'Geddon does not help me at all.
Of course I can't speak for BlueRam, but this is what I've figured out over the time that my own Primer has been in service.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If I play Kaalia 1v1 then Master of Cruelties[/card] replaces Aurelia, the Warleader in my build. Otherwise I would feel awful to "one-shot" an opponent on turn 3 or 4 knocking them out of the game and force them to sit and watch the rest of us finish a game that could take a long time. (Unless of course we are playing in a competitive environment for prizes :cool2:)
This. Yuuuup.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
It is a great threat tool. Almost an on-site-required-kill. I use it mainly to slow down whoever is pumping out creatures or ramp. Aiming for the little guy does nothing.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
My problem is that he doesn't really have any sort of evasion. If they're already pumping out guys, isn't it likely that he'll just be chump blocked? If he naturally had flying, I'd consider him a little more because then he'd just block everything all day.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I actually go back to playing Avacyn in that scenario, heh.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
No, I totally believe preach that. I'm just saying I'd consider him a little more if he had natural evasion....of course, that'd be a little TOO crazy.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I think with the amount of recursion we run he might be worth running testing because he is always a 3 turn clock and can be given haste and regeneration. Not to mention he only cost 5 mana and is easily castable without Kaalia.
I just got my hands on a copy of him recently and I think I'll test him in the deck for a while since I like the art so much.
The problem with running Skittles is that, like you said, he doesn't really help with Kaalia's primary game plan. Because of that, he eats up a slot that you could be using to play someone who gives you much more versatile removal. If life gain is a problem for you, I heavily suggest running Erebos since he acts as an indestructible way to draw cards and has the neat side effect of denying life gain for your opponents.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I was playing around in my various deck building programs with lists that go as low as 9 creatures including Kaalia. The rest is all mass and targeted land removal, mana rocks, tutors, removal and indestructibility packages.
How many slots for land destruction is to many? Even if I'm going for that as the deck archetype.
Here is a list I'm going to start cutting and tweaking from:
4 Kaalia of the Vast
Creatures:
2 Grand Abolisher
5 Desolation Angel
5 Karmic Guide
5 Master of Cruelties
6 Twilight Sheperd
6 Aurelia, the Warleader
7 Angel of Despair
7 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
8 Akroma, Angel of Fury
8 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
8 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Planeswalkers:
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
7 Karn Liberated
Artifacts:
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Grim Monolith
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Boros Signet
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Darksteel Ingot
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
5 Gilded Lotus
6 Mycosynth Lattice
9 Darksteel Forge
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Path to Exile
2 Terminate
3 Oblation
3 Chaos Warp
4 Wrecking Ball
4 Boil
Enchantment:
2 Impending Disaster
3 Price of Glory
4 Leyline of the Void
Sorcery:
2 Wheel of Fate
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Pillage
3 Vindicate
4 Armageddon
4 Wrath of God
4 Damnation
4 Diabolic Tutor
4 Boiling Seas
4 Ruination
4 Sunder from Within
4 Demolish
5 Lava Flow
5 Incendiary Command
5 Fissure Vent
6 Catastrophe
6 Bust
6 Jokulhaups
6 Rain of Salt
6 Wake of Destruction
6 Volcanic Awakening
7 Devastation
8 Obliterate
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Hmmm....well, if your playgroup is okay with not playing magic while you punch them in the face over and over, then by all means go for it. Personally, I feel 2-3 land wraths are perfectly acceptable if you're using them as wincons and have a good suite of tutors.
For you though? I honestly couldn't say. If that's your primary goal, then by all means continue to toy around with it.
I'm not a big fan of going that creature light in a Kaalia deck, but if you always have a fatty then it may work out. I'd try and add in some more beats though.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
Well if I do make the deck, which is no guarantee, it would only be something I would whip out when someone pulls some crap that pisses the entire LGS off. All the targeted LD would go at him making it so he just wouldn't be able to play.
The mass wipes would be to try to win once we've hated the other guy out. They wouldn't draw me all that much hate because when we run league there is a rule that says "if all lands would be destroyed, instead 75% are destroyed" (rounded down I think). Because of that a card like Cataclysm is far more hated then Armageddon.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB