Creatures with the cascade ability (Maelstrom Wanderer, Bloodbraid Elf, Etherium-Horn Sorcerer and Shardless Agent) decrease the value of counterspells because they are terrible to 'cascade' into. If you cascade into a counterspell, the only valid target on the stack is the creature you cast yourself. You don't have to cast the counterspell, but then you're missing out on the value that cascade grants and have to put that spell on the bottom of your library (never to see it again).
Exactly my reasoning. I found that being able to counter at the right time is way more important than cascaders possibly hitting something.
Jonas, has Maelstrom Wanderer ever been in the deck? Both Gelf and I play Maelstrom Wanderer with three bad cascade cards, the two counterspells and Chord of Calling. Those three with your inclusion of Green Sun's Zenith make a potential of four. But, you play Dryad Arbor so Chord and Zenith are not technically dead cascades.
Gelf, if Jonas adds another counterspell would you include Maelstrom in the deck?
Maelstrom Wanderer is a very powerful card that will almost always let you cast 3 creatures for 3 mana AND it gives them haste. Furthermore, because cascade cares about converted mana cost less than the cascading spell, there is much less risk of a bad cascade running Maelstrom Wanderer. Compared to Bloodbraid Elf, where the chance of a bad cascade is around 16% (5 cards out of 31 with cmc less than 4; Willbender can be cast, but is a pretty poor cascade), Maelstrom Wanderer only has a bad cascade 8.5% of the time (5 out of 59 cards with cmc less than 8).
I don't like the term 'auto-include' but it is hard to argue against the value Maelstrom Wanderer offers.
It seems interesting, but not quite a must.
It could be noticeable that it may Give trample to two creatures paying .
I like the exploration effect more than granting trample, but that said giving trample to Animar is a legitimate way to win. Being able to bounce and replay Gaea's Cradle could also be fun.
Tutors are so dependant on gamestate I can't really say which is the first I tutored for. As I've said previously board wipes are rampant in my meta and I usually favour a draw engine over protection, if I haven't already got one.
Jonas, has Maelstrom Wanderer ever been in the deck? Both Gelf and I play Maelstrom Wanderer with three bad cascade cards, the two counterspells and Chord of Calling. Those three with your inclusion of Green Sun's Zenith make a potential of four. But, you play Dryad Arbor so Chord and Zenith are not technically dead cascades.
Gelf, if Jonas adds another counterspell would you include Maelstrom in the deck?
Maelstrom Wanderer was indeed in the deck for a very long time. It's value is fantastic, but lately games seem to go often like this: my birds/exploration/hardened scales get countered T1, Meddling Mage T2 naming Animar, Blood Moon T3, and so on. It looks like I need low-cost counterspells for the beginning of the game more than I need cascaders T4/T5, when the outcome of the game more or less has been decided.
I have not done the testing I had hoped as once Animar wins I usually put up the deck. Force of Will is a card I am always happy to see. Early game it is the superior card to Stubborn Denial and counters Meddling Mage unlike Swan Song which I also play.
You may consider Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast· Again, both counter Meddling Mage and give you blue permanent removal. I would think you would have help countering or removing Blood Moon.
The best response to a player who tapped out for blood moon is probably worldly tutor for kiki jiki :), (And it will re-instill your faith in manamorphose!) seriously though. Playing against red is different. Fetching for basics, not playing animar til turn 5+, casting lots of tutors for earthcraft/phyrexian revoker. All of these things usually being good plays vs heavy red.
Good torpor orb answers like caustic caterpilar and sylvok replica usually pull lots of utility against heavy red themes. 5. 1-2 mana counterspells is usually what I play but right now i'm only running 4. (removed muddle the mixture for chain of vapor), however, i do try and play at. least 10 1-2 mana answers so i'm always interacting with my opponents board in the early turns. animar cant fit the 8+ counterspells needed to see one by turn 3 and do what it does best. animar has to use cards like man o war for utility roles to handle things like meddling mage. save those valuable counterspells for pushing through a win, or not dying. i've had great success with stubborn denial and swan song but flusterstorm and mana drain have been just as amazing. my particular animar didn't support f.o.w. very well. I was already burning through resources at an alarming rate.
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URGANIMARURG In the folklore of its plane, the Animar is the ultimate source of all life—the seed from which all creation grows. In the presence of Animar, crops blossom and herds thrive, and the wake of its wanderings determines the course of the seasons.
How about Gladehart Cavalry?
It seems interesting, maybe specially in a more +1 counter centric build, but also in a general Animar deck could be useful...
I might consider a creature with Support 1, simply as a way of loading an extra counter on Animar (much like Bond Beetle does), although personally I do not play with creatures that add extra +1/+1 counters, because usually the effect becomes pointless due to the way Animar's +1/+1 counters create a positive feedback loop.
I guess if you're bouncing and recasting Gladehart Cavalry for the effect it can create some pretty big creatures, but if you're already able to do that, chances are bouncing and recasting Bond Beetle will have the same impact.
In such a situation, you can act first, by trying to assemble a combo before Keranos has control of the game. Or you try to assemble your resources to win in a single turn when Keranos is forced to tap out (or when you can force past counterspells using Surrak Dragonclaw for example).
Likewise, Xenagos, God of Revels survives those big board wipes and you can keep trying to push through fat creatures to threaten Keranos.
Maelstrom Wanderer might also grant you victory if you can cast and him a few times.
Burn spells are certainly one of the hardest things to fight through, but in such cases the deck is certainly capable of winning using other threats, it's usually just a slower path to victory. If the deck is packing particular hate to use against Animar, we too can pack meta specific cards to improve our odds (again Surrak Dragonclaw comes to mind and Glamerdye). Don't forget Venser, Shaper Savant can return Obliterate to the hand. If Keranos tapped out for it, you have an opportunity to combo off. If you can ramp enough, hard casting Eldrazi legends can also win the game.
Finally are you playing against Keranos 1v1 or multiplayer? Don't forget in multiplayer other players might be convinced to aid you against Keranos, but this will probably only work if you lose to him enough times that he becomes the greater perceived threat than Animar.
Gelf, as usual thank you for your quick answering.
My games were always in 1v1.
In my matches I've never had the possibility to pump Animar or to "overrun" my opponent: Animar got countered or bounced, my board swiped so I becams stuck with no lands, no creatures and 3 damages per turn from Keranos.
1) Ruric Thar, The Unbowed works well against any deck that plays relatively few creatures, but unless you can protect him he usually only deals 6 damage before being removed. That said, if he stalls your opponent for a turn, that might be long enough to assemble a win condition. Other creatures that work well against control decks are Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Dosan the Falling Leaf.
2) Creature tutors will only help if you have silver bullets to find. I think Surrak Dragonclaw will probably be really good (you can flash him to act as a counterspell or before your turn to protect the next turn) but tutoring for him signals that strategy. Green Sun's Zenith will tap you out against control and is probably worth countering, so I don't think it is playable in this match up unless you're using it to be super fast (ie. finding Dryad Arbor or mana elves).
3) Maelstrom Wanderer is very powerful. It is difficult to counterspell productively (you'll probably get two out of three spells) and grants haste, leaving little time to react to its appearance before dealing damage. Cascade forces you to re-evaluate some other cards in the deck (including counterspells and morph) but because he hits almost anything (CMC 7 or less) you don't need worry as much as when including cascade from Bloodbraid Elf or Shardless Agent which cascade into a smaller pool of cards. Talking about morph, without Animar on the table, how much value does morph really add? If you're thinking about shaping your deck to a meta which usually denies you having Animar on board, you need to move in a direction that is less reliant on his synergies and Cascade (Etherium-Horn Sorcerer!) is a way to do that.
4) I don't think Keranos, God of Storms is very good for two reasons: First, he only provides a benefit once on your turn and Animar combo typically will only gain that benefit at most three times if it's winning. Second, I play multiplayer magic, so effects that work once in my turn simply don't do enough. I can't abuse Keranos with Animar, so I don't see the point. Compared to Kruphix, God of Horizons, which acts as a way to store mana when Animar can't be relied on for his discount; Xenagos, God of Revels, an haste enabler that survives most Wraths; and Purphoros, God of the Forge which combos for victory with the numerous enter the battlefield effects we run, Keranos sits there and does virtually nothing most of the time. Keranos wants you to build your deck in a completely different direction, one with makes the game go long over many turns, so that you get suitable advantage over an occassional card draw and lightning bolts.
I'll follow this up by saying my deck (and EDH experience) is not designed for 1v1 magic. It might be able to win some games 1v1, but it is intentionally 'slow' for an Animar deck. In my opinion, your best bet to win against Keranos is to kill him before he gains control of the board. To do that, I'd recommend something along the lines of Jesters Imperial Animar build. I know budget is a concern for you, but even without Imperial Recruiter, you can play a deck with many small creatures that draw you cards when equipped with Skullclamp. Earthcraft keeps the early turn going and you might even be able to pump Animar out of burn range even if you can't win on the turn you cast him.
The other option is to force Keranos to be the aggro deck. Play your own counterspells and force him to tap out, counterspell his land destruction and combo to victory late in the game, preferably in a single turn. This style of play will move you well away from Animar's strengths, but it is a way of dealing with the meta.
I like the build of my deck (you may find it in my signature), so I'd like to change only a few cards of it.
Going in a small creatures build would mean to change a lot of them, so I'll think about it in the future if I'll see that my current deck is not so funny to play in the meta that I usually play against: I'm just looking for having fun playing my deck, not to be competitive in a DCI sanctioned event.
That said, my build is very similar to your primer deck. I've got just one morph card more, which is Akroma, Angel of Fury, but just because it's a card that I've always had in mind to play some day... and in this build it seems to fit someway.
It's true, without Animar on the board a morph card is much less useful, but I like that my opponent doesn't know which card could be turned face up.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Dosan the Falling Leaf seem to be very good options, but I see that you don't play any one of them anymore and you explained well why you chose to put them out: Teferi has the well known problem of the :symu::symu::symu: casting cost, Dosan blocks me to do something in my opponent's turn.
Since I don't have any of them I prefer not to buy them for now.
Maelstrom Wanderer at this moment is a little bit out of budget (a wallet after Christmas is not so full, especially when you're a father :)), so I'll try Etherium-Horn Sorcerer instead (it's also tutorable with Fabricate).
I'll try also Green Sun's Zenith to try to enhance the speed of the deck.
What does everyone think of Thought Harvester? It's an interesting win condition in Ancestral Animar multiplayer builds. I posted about this on the competitiveEDH subreddit:
It's no Ancestral Statue, but it might have some potential. Here's my thinking.
Ancestral Statue, Cloudstone combo, or (sometimes) Earthcraft combo all let you cast infinite colored spells resulting in an infinite Animar. But that's probably not enough to win.
So the real win condition is Purphoros. But he's hard to tutor for as he cant be found with Recruiter or Empath.
I'd say about a third of the time I can get an infinite Animar, I can't win with it that turn (either with Purph, a draw engine, or whatever). So it would definitely be useful to increase those chances.
What about Thought Harvester as an additional win condition?
Pros:
Fetchable with Recruiter. That's the main reason. That means having Recruiter, Purph, or this guy on hand results in a win. Before, it was just Purph. Also, Recruiter might very well be on the board already, in which case any bounce spell works too.
Can knock out individual players at a time. Might be relevant if you know one player had an answer. Not sure.
Cons:
Essentially requires you to go infinite, whereas Purph can sometimes deal enough damage off runs with Primordial Sage, for example. This guy needs an order of magnitude more activations to win.
Obviously, this wouldn't replace Purph but would go in addition.
Compared to the other potential pieces of the combo:
Purphoros, God of the Forge is durable and can win with 20 creatures entering the battlefield, which is possible without combo. He also offers a pump ability if you have to attack to finish an opponent.
Ancestral Statue produces an infinitely large Animar on its own and can be used to trigger cast and ETB effects even if not infinite (but not Cloudstone Curio sadly). It can also bounce another creature for an effect you might need.
Thought Harvester might exile a few cards, unless you're going infinite at which point it wins. It triggers incidently, but only from colourless spells. Exiling a few cards is almost the same as doing nothing (much like dishing out a few poison counters) whereas a few triggers from Purphoros may do enough to allow victory through combat. Altar of the Brood is another similar combo piece that never gained traction, although I concede, exile mill is much stronger than just mill and a creature is far more tutorable. We'll just ignore Trinket Mage.
If you're completely focused on Ancestral Statue combo for victory, Though Harvester gets you there, but it offers the least utility in a situation where you can't win right away. If you're playing any processors, then the incidental exile gains a lot of value, but Eldrazi processors tend to be quite difficult to abuse.
Alternatively you could use Oblivion Sower, which loops with Cloudstone Curio to win in the same way (library exile), but also ramps. There are more pieces required in the combo, but the utility outside of combo is better and it requires fewer loops to win.
The Colourless Mana Symbol – This C is a big deal if we want to include particular Eldrazi in the deck and of the new mechanics the one which will have lasting impact on deck construction and card choices. More discussion on this soon.
Cohort – Creature ability (yay) specifically referring to allies (boo). An ally tribal build might want some of these effects, but from what I’ve seen they’re fairly lacklustre for EDH.
Support - A +1/+1 counter ability, that specifically pushes the counters wide rather than tall. Appears on both creatures and spells, so if you’re in the ‘+1/+1 counters matter’ build this has potential.
Surge - A discounted cost if you’ve already cast a spell (or playing a team game and your teammate has cast a spell). Again this is appears on both spells and creatures. Sometimes it adds an additional enter the battlefield effect. Animar’s cost reduction allows us to switch on Surge easily, but (for the same reason) the discounted cost of creatures usually won’t be relevant. Depends a good deal on ETB effects available or if there are any non-creature spells unique enough to prove useful.
Returning Mechanics – Landfall, Eldrazi Scions (now with C!) and Devoid
Discussion around the Colourless Mana Symbol
This brave new world poses a problem for Animar. For the first time we see colourless creatures that do not get the full Animar discount. Colourless mana is almost useless for Animar most of the time, but suddenly there are new creatures which require it to be cast. Is it worth manipulating the mana base to be able to cast them or activate their abilities?
Is this enough to run something with a cost of C? Maybe, but we’d have trouble bouncing and recasting the creature in question. How meeting about a cost of CC? I’d say it’s not enough.
So if we want to include these new creatures, we’d want to increase the colourless sources in the mana base to support them. The easiest changes would be to include painlands; Karplusan Forest, Shivan Reef and Yavimaya Coast and add more five colour lands; City of Brass and Mana Confluence for example. These lands let us add colourless without sacrificing the ability to produce necessary coloured mana. Instead you’re taking damage when you need the coloured mana (especially troublesome if you need it while abusing Palinchron).
Chromatic Lantern, Joiner Adept and Prismatic Omen could be used to fix all our mana issues (unless/until rule 4 is changed) and might simultaneously allow the running more utility lands, but would leave our mana base weaker to non-land targeted removal.
Including one or two Wastes allow us to tutor for a colourless source with Sakura-Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum and Farhaven Elf. They can also be untapped with Earthcraft, but without a Chromatic Lantern effect (or a high proportion of colourless costs) they may be ‘dead’ lands during the game.
At this point if feels like we’re building a four colour mana base, and with that comes greater inconsistency. It’s a dramatic change to allow the casting of a few unique creatures and spells in a deck that is already mana intensive, due to a lack of generic costs (care of Animar’s abilities). It does feel like Animar is suddenly a four colour Commander and we’re been asked if it is worth including this new fourth colour? It is certainly possible, but is it worthwhile? When I get to the colourless section of the review, bear this in mind.
TL:DR The Colourless Mana symbol is the big thing here. Mechanically the rest might have something interesting to offer, but it’s more likely to be interesting as incidental to another powerful effect than specifically about the mechanic itself.
Cards for Animar:
UBlueU
Cultivator Drone – If you’re keen on the new mana symbol here’s a mana dork on theme. Consider, does it make the cut compared to cheaper and less restrictive mana dorks such as Sea Scryer, Palladium Myr or Plague Myr?
Deepfathom Skulker – If you’re playing an aggressive deck this is Edric, Spymaster of Trest number two, which potentially costs U! Sometimes you will be able to activate the ability to push through an attacker.
Thought Harvester – Combos with Ancestral Statue and morph loops to exile target opponent’s library (or all opponents’ libraries with enough repeats). Also has synergy with Oblivion Sower and Eldrazi Processors if you’re playing them. If infinite loop victories are your thing and you want redundancy, why not? Bear in mind outside of an infinite colourless casting loop this thing doesn’t do much.
Gift of Tusks - I mention this because cheap ‘removal’ is good and while I’m unlikely to play this in my deck, it is something to watch out for. It can be used to deny Animar discounts for a turn or turn off another combo piece we might rely on. In combat situations where both parties have creatures, this is better than Pongify because you leave nothing behind. If the creature in question is never attacking or blocking, this might only stall for a turn.
Sphinx of the Final Word – A big creature that is hard to remove and protects Glimpse of Nature and Chord of Calling from counter magic. If we ran more Instants and Sorcery (say in a much more controlling Animar build) it might be worth running. More likely we’ll have to defend against it from a new wave of Mizzix storm builds.
RRedR
Eldrazi Obligator – If you can pay the colourless cost, the ability is very hard to counter. This might surprise some control decks and let you take an important creature. You can also use it to untap your own creature and give it haste, which might be relevant. Sadly Animar doesn’t discount the ability cost and it doesn’t combo with Kiki-Jiki, but it’s better than it first appears.
Kozilek's Return – Ok so this does have anti-synergy with Animar, it’s a non-creature spell and it kills creatures, but we can also easily trigger that second ability. Animar himself will usually be out of the damage range and instant speed colourless damage, plus two effects for the cost of one card, all adds up to very good value. The second ability is also very difficult to counter (seems to be theme of the set). I imagine this being good against token decks and control decks that hide behind chump blockers or hope to rely on them to cover Annihilate triggers. I don’t know if I want to include this card in my deck, but I do think it is harder to dismiss (as a non-creature) than most spells.
Chandra, Flamecaller – Obligatory mention that I don’t think Planeswalkers make the cut in Animar. Further, none of her abilities are particularly interesting in context: I don’t want to create tokens, blue and green have better draw engines and she’s too expensive (mana cost) to be a board wipe for x/3s (or even x/4s). Compare to Crater Hellion if you really want that effect.
Cinder Hellion – Speaking of Hellions… direct damage to an opponent on ETB always grabs attention. Is this worthwhile looping? A brief delve into Magic history reveals Ghitu Slinger; which can hit players and creatures, is cheaper (just ignore Echo, we won’t need another upkeep) and still a common if you were building pauper Animar or something.
Expedite – Sure it’s not a creature, but being able to simply grant haste and draw a card for R (or basically cycle it if you don’t need it) seems pretty good. This made me look to see if this cantrip been printed before and I found Crimson Wisps too! Animar prefers its haste granted by a creature, but in some circumstances and metas this sort of effect might make the cut.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers – Wouldn’t it be amazing to cast Glimpse of Nature, then this to get another free Glimpse of Nature? Outside of magical Christmas land, we’d never play this creature because there are not enough targets in our deck (and most are counterspells anyway), but it’s always worth noting creatures with powerful ETB effects.
Reckless Bushwhacker – Paid with surge this will ETB to give all creatures +1/+0 and haste, not a bad aggro enabler. There are plenty of red creatures that do this now, so an aggro build should never be lacking a haste enabler. This one should be cheap and easy to acquire.
Tyrant of Valakut – I’m pretty sure Animar still offers a discount if you choose the surge cost, so casting this for RR and getting a lightning bolt isn’t too bad, but I’m reminded again of Ghitu Slinger.
GGreenG
Birthing Hulk – Generates Eldrazi Scions as an ETB should you want the tokens or C sources. Probably a bit high on the curve even with Animar’s discount.
Scion Summoner – Another way to generate Eldrazi Scions, on a much more reasonable body, but one has to ask, how important is the 1 power on the token? Nest Invader is a better ramp option if you’re just after the C.
Vile Redeemer – This gives a decent response to a Wrath of God by replacing lost bodies and providing mana to rebuild your board. Unlike Caller of the Claw and Fresh Meat, the Scions are able to pay for Animar’s commander tax increase and generic costs until Animar is loaded with counters again. Furthermore the ability is difficult to counter as it is triggered on cast. This almost makes me want to play Fecundity again.
World Breaker – Exile removal for artifacts, enchantments and lands is powerful (and on cast not ETB to add counterspell resilience). Enjoys a big discount from Animar. Can return itself from the grave to your hand by sacrificing a land. Seems pretty decent even if you can’t get the free regrowth effect. Important to note it deals with both Torpor Orb and Humility at a cheaper cost than Ulamog.
Bonds of Mortality – A meta card if you’re having trouble with indestructible and hexproof. I think Arcane Lighthouse is probably the better way to deal with hexproof (and shroud, but not indestructible). If your meta is difficult why not both?
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - Obligatory mention that I don’t think Planeswalkers make the cut in Animar. We don’t want plant tokens, but she does put a +1/+1 counter on Animar (almost like casting a creature but with no discount!) and her ultimate would refill the hand, if we ever got there. Sadly, like all planeswalkers, she is too slow for me.
Saddleback Lagac – ETB support 2. Unless you’re playing ‘+1/+1 counters matter’ it’s not worth the cost and even then you have to ask is the extra cost for a 3/1 body worth it over something like Bond Beetle or Hunting Moa?
Zendikar Resurgent – It’s a high cost enchantment, but a combination of a personal Mana Flare and Primordial Sage probably justifies the cost. I can’t see wanting to give up a turn to cast this, but it would be a fantastic cascade from Maelstrom Wanderer. I’d love this combination of abilities on a creature. An elemental can dream.
GRUMulticolouredURG
Void Grafter – Not a bad way to protect Animar from spot removal.
Jori En, Ruin Diver – Animar can easily trigger the draw, possibly even during opponents’ turns if you control Prophet of Kruphix. It’s small incremental advantage, if you’re already able to consistently push ahead (or bounce and recast the same creatures with Cloudstone Curio). It’s not repeatable draw when we need it most, during a combo turn, so might not be worth the trouble.
Mina and Denn, Wildborn – Playing extra lands is never a bad thing (as long as you have card draw), nor is giving Animar trample. You also have the decent option of bouncing and replaying Gaea’s Cradle for the double tap, if you’ve no other lands to play. Also plays well with Cloudstone Curio for mana double taps (yes, you can bounce lands).
XArtifacts/ColourlessX
Hedron Crawler – Better than Cultivator Drone, but less good than Plague Myr? At this stage I think playing Eldrazi that produce Scions or Spawn are a better source of C.
Deceiver of Form – A pretty interesting clone ability. It doesn’t play so well with legendary creatures or ETB effects, so there isn’t much in my deck that seems worth copying. Best possible targets? Artisan of Kozilek (Annihilator!) and maybe Fathom Mage (declare no attackers, cast a 2/2 second main, draw a bunch of cards and stick a +1/+1 counter on all the creatures). If you build around more attack or combat damage creatures, this gets better. It’s certainly quirky.
Endbringer – Truly the test for your colourless mana production. In multiplayer the ping adds up and the ability to pre-emptively stop an attacker or politically stop a blocker is pretty cool, but I’d prefer to draw an extra card in each turn. It’s kind of like a Mind's Eye on legs, with some other utility and can be cast for cheap. Unfortunately, compared to Mind’s Eye, it dies more easily and requires haste to start gaining real advantage as soon as possible.
Kozilek, the Great Distortion – The other test for your colourless mana production. Here’s the rub, new Kozilek will never draw you as many cards as the Butcher of Truth, because it always caps at 7 in hand. Bounce tricks don’t work unless you can empty your hand somehow. Not that drawing up to a full starting hand is unexciting, it’s just not as good once you have engines going. The other main ability adds a decent control element. Repeatable counterspell is a powerful effect if you have enough cards in hand, although it’s going to be difficult to always have something of the right CMC, when you do it will be hard for opponents to stay in the game. Finally a 12/12 with Menace is a decent attacking threat, but doesn’t nearly compare to Annihilator 4. Ultimately I think old Kozilek is the better Kozilek and given the difficulty of getting CC, new Kozilek probably will never make the cut in this deck.
Matter Reshaper – Now this is worth considering a new C mana base. At the very least it replaces itself by putting a card in your hand. At most it puts Cloudstone Curio or numerous other cards on the battlefield. If they’re morph creatures, you don’t have to put them on the battlefield, it’s a may ability, you can choose to put them in hand! It’s a pretty damn fine death trigger. It’s kind of like a cross between Coiling Oracle and Solemn Simulacrum.
Thought-Knot Seer – Another reason to consider C. With bounce shenanigans (triggers on leaving the battlefield, not dying) you can exile cards from opponent A and give card draw to opponent B; a fun political play. Also given Equilibrium, Man-o'-War and Venser, Shaper Savant, this can be used as a way of exiling problematic permanents (even a spell from the stack!) in a two step process. I like it.
Warping Wail – Colourless charm. This will stop a lot of board wipe effects, exiles various utility creatures, give you an instant speed blocker or provides that extra C you need. Very versatile effect, but I think less restrictive counterspell effects are what we really need. That said, if you’re playing control Animar deck, consider this card.
XLandsX
Crumbling Vestige – negates a little of the disadvantage of only tapping for colourless mana by giving you coloured mana on the way in. I think this is a pretty good land that balances coloured and colourless needs, especially as a common, but there will be times it’s really awkward.
Holdout Settlement – Animar usually has some small creature with an ETB effect sitting around to meet the cost of producing coloured mana. If I was pushing for the colourless mana base, this is probably worth a spot.
Mirrorpool – undoubtedly a cool utility land. Being able to copy Chord of Calling or get a token clone of an ETB creature is a powerful effect. I might give it a try.
Sea Gate Wreckage – Card draw on lands is good, even if you need to be hellbent to use it.
Wandering Fumarole – UR manland. Of the three choices we have now, this is probably the worst. I’m disappointed because I was hoping it would have a loot effect on dealing combat damage. Oh well.
Wastes – Can be searched up with our basic land search, which is a pretty big bonus. Otherwise it will mostly do nothing (kind of like mountains). I might play one if I run Thought-Knot Seer.
Hello, how competative is this list? trying to search a most complete animar list, my field full of string control\combo decks with a lot of wraths so im needed strongest one
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EDH
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Narset, Enlightened Master
Gelf, your analysis is very interesting.
I've got just a question:
can we play colorless cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Wastes lands with Animar? I thought that they could be played only with a colorless general (i.e. Kozilek, the Great Distortion)...
Colourless is the absence of colour identity. It is not its own colour and therefore can go in any deck. The new mana symbol does not create a colour identity.
If it worked the way you are suggesting, any non-basic land that taps for C would be excluded from all decks except Kozilek's (who would then also exclude all coloured mana symbols, leaving very few legal non-basic lands). Sol Ring (it taps for CC) and most mana rocks would also be illegal except in Kozilek. Fortunately this is not the case.
Exactly my reasoning. I found that being able to counter at the right time is way more important than cascaders possibly hitting something.
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Gelf, if Jonas adds another counterspell would you include Maelstrom in the deck?
I don't like the term 'auto-include' but it is hard to argue against the value Maelstrom Wanderer offers.
I like the exploration effect more than granting trample, but that said giving trample to Animar is a legitimate way to win. Being able to bounce and replay Gaea's Cradle could also be fun.
There aren't too many options for extra land drops on creatures (Oracle of Mul Daya, Azusa, Lost but Seeking... is that it?) so if it's an effect you're really building around, Mina and Denn will increase your redundancy, without resorting to enchantments, artifacts or other spells.
Guilded Drake should have been in my deck from the beginning. Especially relevant if you are stealing a big threat with no etb effect.
What was usually the first creature you tutored for with Fauna Shaman?
I am finding going defensive with Stratus Dancer, Elgaud Shieldmate or Glen Elandra is the best bet.
Maelstrom Wanderer was indeed in the deck for a very long time. It's value is fantastic, but lately games seem to go often like this: my birds/exploration/hardened scales get countered T1, Meddling Mage T2 naming Animar, Blood Moon T3, and so on. It looks like I need low-cost counterspells for the beginning of the game more than I need cascaders T4/T5, when the outcome of the game more or less has been decided.
Thinking about it: most of the problem cards I face are blue. (Prophet of Kruphix, counterspells, Meddling Mage). I think I'm going to test out Red Elemental Blast for a while.
1 Animar, soul of Elements
Lands (37)
5 Island
1 Mountain
6 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Hinterland Harbour
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Mana Confluence (*)
1 Command Tower (A)
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Homeward Path
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Small Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise (A)
1 Shrieking Drake
2 Ainok Survivalist
2 Beastcaller Savant
2 Bloom Tender
2 Cloud of Faeries
2 Elvish Visionary (*) (F)
2 Den Protector
2 Gilded Drake
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder (*) (P)
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stratus Dancer
2 Sylvan Ranger (*)
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Willbender
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Eternal Witness
3 Farhaven Elf
3 Fierce Empath
3 Imperial Recruiter (!)
3 Man-o'-War
3 Reclamation Sage (P)
3 Sage of Fables (*)
3 Wood Elves (*) (P)
4 Ancestral Statue (!) (A)
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Mystic Snake
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Solemn Simulacrum
5 Kruphix, God of Horizons
5 Mulldrifter
5 Peregrine Drake
5 Prophet of Kruphix (*)
5 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
5 Xenagos, God of Revels
6 Draining Whelk
6 Duplicant
6 Oblivion Sower (T)
6 Prime Speaker Zegana
6 Primordial Sage
6 Soul of the Harvest
7 Palinchron (!)
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
8 Terastodon
9 Artisan of Kozilek
10 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
10 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Spells
1 Exploration
1 Glimpse of Nature
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Hardened Scales
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Swan Song
2 Earthcraft
3 Birthing Pod
3 Chord of Calling
3 Cloudstone Curio (*) (!)
(*) Foil (P) Promo (A) Altered (F) Foreign (T) Testing for Fun, probably on it's way out (!) Broken Beyond Belief
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
You may consider Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast· Again, both counter Meddling Mage and give you blue permanent removal. I would think you would have help countering or removing Blood Moon.
Good torpor orb answers like caustic caterpilar and sylvok replica usually pull lots of utility against heavy red themes. 5. 1-2 mana counterspells is usually what I play but right now i'm only running 4. (removed muddle the mixture for chain of vapor), however, i do try and play at. least 10 1-2 mana answers so i'm always interacting with my opponents board in the early turns. animar cant fit the 8+ counterspells needed to see one by turn 3 and do what it does best. animar has to use cards like man o war for utility roles to handle things like meddling mage. save those valuable counterspells for pushing through a win, or not dying. i've had great success with stubborn denial and swan song but flusterstorm and mana drain have been just as amazing. my particular animar didn't support f.o.w. very well. I was already burning through resources at an alarming rate.
In the folklore of its plane, the Animar is the ultimate source of all life—the seed from which all creation grows. In the presence of Animar, crops blossom and herds thrive, and the wake of its wanderings determines the course of the seasons.
1x Animar, Soul of Elements
//Dorks + Land find (16)
1x Somberwald Sage
1x Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1x Burished Hart
1x Iron Myr
1x Silver Myr
1x Copper Myr
1x Palladium Myr
1x Rattleclaw Mystic
1x Bloom Tender
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Fertilid
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Oblivion Sower
1x Orcale of Mul Daya
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Wood Elves
//Tutors, Card advantage and draws (10)
1x Brutalizer Exarch
1x Fierce Empath
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
1x Shaman of the Great Hunt
1x Soul of the Harvest
1x Heartwood Storyteller
1x Woodland Bellower
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1x Mulldrifter
//Clones (6)
1x Dack's Duplicate
1x Sakashima's Student
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Progenitor Mimic
1x Clever Impersonator
//Haste Givers (2)
1x Urabrask the Hidden
1x Maelstrom Wanderer
//Disruption & Protection (15)
1x Gilded Drake
1x Spellskite
1x Willbender
1x Plaxmanta
1x Ainok Survivalist
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Voidmage Apprentice
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Mystic Snake
1x Duplicant
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Voidmage Husher
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Draining Whelk
1x Eternal Witness
1x Temur Sabertooth
1x Ancestral Statue
1x Deadwood Treefolk
1x Man-o'-War
//Untaps and Good stuff (2)
1x Peregrine Drake
1x Prophet of Kruphix
////Other Non creature Spells (6)
1x Sylvan Library
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Chord of Calling
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Worldy Tutor
1x Green Sun's Zenith
////Lands (36)
1x Temple of Abandon (T)
1x Temple of Epiphany (T)
1x Temple of Mystery (T)
1x Breeding Pool
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Flooded Grove
1x Fire-Lit Thicket
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Shivan Reef
1x Command Tower
1x City of Brass (T)
1x Winding Canyons
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Mosswort Bridge
7x Forest
6x Island
2x Mountain
1x Palinchron
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I like your deck.
I've got two questions about it:
Tiny - Yasova
How do you sideboard? Do you have specific cards you remove to fit in the more competitive cards?
You run a lot of clones. Are they ever dead in hand?
Have you ever won with Shaman of Forgotten Ways?
It seems interesting, maybe specially in a more +1 counter centric build, but also in a general Animar deck could be useful...
Tiny - Yasova
Gladehart Cavalry spreads counters wide, which is rarely what I want as a counter enabler for Animar. If I wanted the aggro boost I'd prefer to run something much more efficient such as Craterhoof Behemoth, Pathbreaker Ibex or (non-creature) Beastmaster Ascension. If I wanted the +1/+1 counters; Master Biomancer, Bloodspore Thrinax or Shaman of the Great Hunt all do the job better in my opinion.
I guess if you're bouncing and recasting Gladehart Cavalry for the effect it can create some pretty big creatures, but if you're already able to do that, chances are bouncing and recasting Bond Beetle will have the same impact.
In short, I don't like the Cavalry
how do you play a deck like this against a Keranos, God of Storms deck?
That means we have to face many counter / control cards, Wildfire / Obliterate et similia, Anger of the Gods, Tezzeret the Seeker / Tamiyo, the Moon Sage... it seems impossible for Animar to stay into play and nothing can be played while the opponent drive his draws to deal 3 damages every single turn with Keranos, God of Storms.
Is there a specifical way to play Animar against Keranos?
P.S.: happy new year!!
Tiny - Yasova
If you can get Birthing Pod and Glen Elendra Archmage onto the battlefield, you can win by using Pod to find Zealous Conscripts (untap Birthing Pod) then sac Glen Elendra again for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. If you also have Purphoros, God of the Forge you don't even need to attack to win.
Likewise, Xenagos, God of Revels survives those big board wipes and you can keep trying to push through fat creatures to threaten Keranos.
Maelstrom Wanderer might also grant you victory if you can cast and him a few times.
Burn spells are certainly one of the hardest things to fight through, but in such cases the deck is certainly capable of winning using other threats, it's usually just a slower path to victory. If the deck is packing particular hate to use against Animar, we too can pack meta specific cards to improve our odds (again Surrak Dragonclaw comes to mind and Glamerdye). Don't forget Venser, Shaper Savant can return Obliterate to the hand. If Keranos tapped out for it, you have an opportunity to combo off. If you can ramp enough, hard casting Eldrazi legends can also win the game.
Finally are you playing against Keranos 1v1 or multiplayer? Don't forget in multiplayer other players might be convinced to aid you against Keranos, but this will probably only work if you lose to him enough times that he becomes the greater perceived threat than Animar.
My games were always in 1v1.
In my matches I've never had the possibility to pump Animar or to "overrun" my opponent: Animar got countered or bounced, my board swiped so I becams stuck with no lands, no creatures and 3 damages per turn from Keranos.
In my deck there are Surrak Dragonclaw, Birthing Pod, Glen Elendra Archmage, Zealous Conscripts, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Venser, Shaper Savant, but I either didn't see them or I simply wasn't able to play them.
Xenagos, God of Revels seems a very nice idea, so I'll put it back in my deck to see if it could help me out.
Some other question:
Tiny - Yasova
2) Creature tutors will only help if you have silver bullets to find. I think Surrak Dragonclaw will probably be really good (you can flash him to act as a counterspell or before your turn to protect the next turn) but tutoring for him signals that strategy. Green Sun's Zenith will tap you out against control and is probably worth countering, so I don't think it is playable in this match up unless you're using it to be super fast (ie. finding Dryad Arbor or mana elves).
3) Maelstrom Wanderer is very powerful. It is difficult to counterspell productively (you'll probably get two out of three spells) and grants haste, leaving little time to react to its appearance before dealing damage. Cascade forces you to re-evaluate some other cards in the deck (including counterspells and morph) but because he hits almost anything (CMC 7 or less) you don't need worry as much as when including cascade from Bloodbraid Elf or Shardless Agent which cascade into a smaller pool of cards. Talking about morph, without Animar on the table, how much value does morph really add? If you're thinking about shaping your deck to a meta which usually denies you having Animar on board, you need to move in a direction that is less reliant on his synergies and Cascade (Etherium-Horn Sorcerer!) is a way to do that.
4) I don't think Keranos, God of Storms is very good for two reasons: First, he only provides a benefit once on your turn and Animar combo typically will only gain that benefit at most three times if it's winning. Second, I play multiplayer magic, so effects that work once in my turn simply don't do enough. I can't abuse Keranos with Animar, so I don't see the point. Compared to Kruphix, God of Horizons, which acts as a way to store mana when Animar can't be relied on for his discount; Xenagos, God of Revels, an haste enabler that survives most Wraths; and Purphoros, God of the Forge which combos for victory with the numerous enter the battlefield effects we run, Keranos sits there and does virtually nothing most of the time. Keranos wants you to build your deck in a completely different direction, one with makes the game go long over many turns, so that you get suitable advantage over an occassional card draw and lightning bolts.
I'll follow this up by saying my deck (and EDH experience) is not designed for 1v1 magic. It might be able to win some games 1v1, but it is intentionally 'slow' for an Animar deck. In my opinion, your best bet to win against Keranos is to kill him before he gains control of the board. To do that, I'd recommend something along the lines of Jesters Imperial Animar build. I know budget is a concern for you, but even without Imperial Recruiter, you can play a deck with many small creatures that draw you cards when equipped with Skullclamp. Earthcraft keeps the early turn going and you might even be able to pump Animar out of burn range even if you can't win on the turn you cast him.
The other option is to force Keranos to be the aggro deck. Play your own counterspells and force him to tap out, counterspell his land destruction and combo to victory late in the game, preferably in a single turn. This style of play will move you well away from Animar's strengths, but it is a way of dealing with the meta.
Hope that helps.
I like the build of my deck (you may find it in my signature), so I'd like to change only a few cards of it.
Going in a small creatures build would mean to change a lot of them, so I'll think about it in the future if I'll see that my current deck is not so funny to play in the meta that I usually play against: I'm just looking for having fun playing my deck, not to be competitive in a DCI sanctioned event.
That said, my build is very similar to your primer deck. I've got just one morph card more, which is Akroma, Angel of Fury, but just because it's a card that I've always had in mind to play some day... and in this build it seems to fit someway.
It's true, without Animar on the board a morph card is much less useful, but I like that my opponent doesn't know which card could be turned face up.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Dosan the Falling Leaf seem to be very good options, but I see that you don't play any one of them anymore and you explained well why you chose to put them out: Teferi has the well known problem of the :symu::symu::symu: casting cost, Dosan blocks me to do something in my opponent's turn.
Since I don't have any of them I prefer not to buy them for now.
Maelstrom Wanderer at this moment is a little bit out of budget (a wallet after Christmas is not so full, especially when you're a father :)), so I'll try Etherium-Horn Sorcerer instead (it's also tutorable with Fabricate).
I'll try also Green Sun's Zenith to try to enhance the speed of the deck.
Tiny - Yasova
It's no Ancestral Statue, but it might have some potential. Here's my thinking.
Ancestral Statue, Cloudstone combo, or (sometimes) Earthcraft combo all let you cast infinite colored spells resulting in an infinite Animar. But that's probably not enough to win.
So the real win condition is Purphoros. But he's hard to tutor for as he cant be found with Recruiter or Empath.
I'd say about a third of the time I can get an infinite Animar, I can't win with it that turn (either with Purph, a draw engine, or whatever). So it would definitely be useful to increase those chances.
What about Thought Harvester as an additional win condition?
Pros:
Cons:
Obviously, this wouldn't replace Purph but would go in addition.
Thoughts?
Purphoros, God of the Forge is durable and can win with 20 creatures entering the battlefield, which is possible without combo. He also offers a pump ability if you have to attack to finish an opponent.
Ancestral Statue produces an infinitely large Animar on its own and can be used to trigger cast and ETB effects even if not infinite (but not Cloudstone Curio sadly). It can also bounce another creature for an effect you might need.
Thought Harvester might exile a few cards, unless you're going infinite at which point it wins. It triggers incidently, but only from colourless spells. Exiling a few cards is almost the same as doing nothing (much like dishing out a few poison counters) whereas a few triggers from Purphoros may do enough to allow victory through combat. Altar of the Brood is another similar combo piece that never gained traction, although I concede, exile mill is much stronger than just mill and a creature is far more tutorable. We'll just ignore Trinket Mage.
If you're completely focused on Ancestral Statue combo for victory, Though Harvester gets you there, but it offers the least utility in a situation where you can't win right away. If you're playing any processors, then the incidental exile gains a lot of value, but Eldrazi processors tend to be quite difficult to abuse.
Alternatively you could use Oblivion Sower, which loops with Cloudstone Curio to win in the same way (library exile), but also ramps. There are more pieces required in the combo, but the utility outside of combo is better and it requires fewer loops to win.
New Mechanics: Officially found here
Discussion around the Colourless Mana Symbol
This brave new world poses a problem for Animar. For the first time we see colourless creatures that do not get the full Animar discount. Colourless mana is almost useless for Animar most of the time, but suddenly there are new creatures which require it to be cast. Is it worth manipulating the mana base to be able to cast them or activate their abilities?
A quick review of my manabase. Cards which explicitly produce C: Cascade Bluffs, Fire-lit Thicket, Flooded Grove, Kessig Wolf Run and Winding Canyons. Kruphix, God of Horizons will also oblige if you don’t mind waiting for mana to otherwise empty from the pool.
Cards which produce C if we use them to produce mana outside Animar’s colour identity (rule 4 trickery): Ancient Ziggurat, Reflecting Pool (only if Ancient Ziggurat is also in play) and Birds of Paradise.
Is this enough to run something with a cost of C? Maybe, but we’d have trouble bouncing and recasting the creature in question. How meeting about a cost of CC? I’d say it’s not enough.
So if we want to include these new creatures, we’d want to increase the colourless sources in the mana base to support them. The easiest changes would be to include painlands; Karplusan Forest, Shivan Reef and Yavimaya Coast and add more five colour lands; City of Brass and Mana Confluence for example. These lands let us add colourless without sacrificing the ability to produce necessary coloured mana. Instead you’re taking damage when you need the coloured mana (especially troublesome if you need it while abusing Palinchron).
Chromatic Lantern, Joiner Adept and Prismatic Omen could be used to fix all our mana issues (unless/until rule 4 is changed) and might simultaneously allow the running more utility lands, but would leave our mana base weaker to non-land targeted removal.
Including one or two Wastes allow us to tutor for a colourless source with Sakura-Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum and Farhaven Elf. They can also be untapped with Earthcraft, but without a Chromatic Lantern effect (or a high proportion of colourless costs) they may be ‘dead’ lands during the game.
At this point if feels like we’re building a four colour mana base, and with that comes greater inconsistency. It’s a dramatic change to allow the casting of a few unique creatures and spells in a deck that is already mana intensive, due to a lack of generic costs (care of Animar’s abilities). It does feel like Animar is suddenly a four colour Commander and we’re been asked if it is worth including this new fourth colour? It is certainly possible, but is it worthwhile? When I get to the colourless section of the review, bear this in mind.
TL:DR The Colourless Mana symbol is the big thing here. Mechanically the rest might have something interesting to offer, but it’s more likely to be interesting as incidental to another powerful effect than specifically about the mechanic itself.
Cards for Animar:
U Blue U
R Red R
G Green G
GRU Multicoloured URG
X Artifacts/Colourless X
X Lands X
Overall thoughts, this set will shake up mana bases as we accommodate this ‘new colour’ of mana. I’m disappointed we didn’t see the rest of the new duel land cycle, but I guess they don’t want all of them together in standard. Otherwise there isn’t much which makes me instantly want to add them to the deck. I’m most interested in Thought-Knot Seer, Vile Redeemer and Mirrorpool, but I also think Eldrazi Obligator, Kozilek's Return, World Breaker, Mina and Denn, Wildborn, Matter Reshaper and Warping Wail have potential.
Honourable mention to Thought Harvester as a new combo finisher with Animar and Ancestral Statue.
Your thoughts? Anything I missed or misevaluated? Feel free to contribute to the discussion.
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Narset, Enlightened Master
Modern
Twin
I've got just a question:
can we play colorless cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Wastes lands with Animar? I thought that they could be played only with a colorless general (i.e. Kozilek, the Great Distortion)...
Tiny - Yasova
If it worked the way you are suggesting, any non-basic land that taps for C would be excluded from all decks except Kozilek's (who would then also exclude all coloured mana symbols, leaving very few legal non-basic lands). Sol Ring (it taps for CC) and most mana rocks would also be illegal except in Kozilek. Fortunately this is not the case.