I guess I should chime in here on my stance on blue control. Check out my Nin, the Pain Artist deck in my sig if you want to see an example.
I like counterspells. I don't LOVE them, but I like them. There's definitely a place in my decks for control. I have put a Venser on a Mimic Vat before and won the T-shirt. Generally, I don't like to play more than five or so. And mostly they almost always to something more than just counter a spell. I like stuff like Hinder, Venser, Glen Elendra Archmage, etc.
I don't play more than that mostly because they're not as good in multiplayer as I'd like them to be, but partly because people just don't like having their stuff countered and I'm ok with that. I'd like to be the one playing the threats sometimes too instead of countering them all until their hand is empty and then winning with a 3/1 flier.
Where that takes us with Riku is that I don't want this to be a pure control deck. I want to copy mad creatures and mad spells. I'm bummed that I don't have room for 150 cards in here and that there's no Wild Ricochet in the decklist (note: replace Decimate?? EDIT: DONE!). But I'll test some things out and come back and adjust and that's fine with me.
So there's definitely room for control elements here and I'm going to try the Seeborn Muse/Leyline approach just for kicks. Hello, Mystic Snake.
I'd strongly suggest adding in Green Sun's Zenith. It's really a fantastic creature tutor. I'd probably cut Solemn Simulacrum, given the fact that you have multiple better ramp spells and creatures, and much better card draw. Nice thing about being in those colors.
I'm not sure about Skullclamp, either. Most of your guys are too tough to be taken out by Clamp, and you're only packing a couple of sac outlets. I'd probably sub it out for Izzet Chronarch unless you have plans on how to get one of those out reliably.
Scavenging Ooze <---This was just spoiled, so not on oracle yet
Replacement for primal/loaming shaman?
I mean, yeah its a bear, but that just means its cheap to tutor off of chord of calling.
Plus its more permanent as hate than either of the others, it gains life and potentially beats face.
Also, you should replace tundra with taiga.
(I know that was just a typo tho, so sorry for being a prick :P)
Hmm... other than that... my favorite ETB is terastadon, I saw him mentioned several times, but not why he wasn't being run?
Side note 2: I include a LftL package in every g/u deck, as well as intuition.
I go LftL, spitting image, and genesis or in some cases, some other utility, eternal witness etc.
Plus an LftL package lets you run cycling lands, which make for great card draw/shennanigans.
For example, i worldly tutor in response to a spell, cycle a land, mystic snake! BOOM! safe from discard effects and no one sees it coming!
I know spitting image didn't make the cut, but you should take another look, reusable general kill/huge creature cloning is amazing. 8 mana for 2 extra primeval titans (or whatever else you want) is a great deal.
This may not be for you though, but I've found it really fun.
the deck i built runs mostly sorceries/instants and creatures with 38 land. i figured i would try to cut down on the artifacts and enchantments which dont get value out of my general (not the best reason thats why i still run a few of the good ones) so i can play cards like creeping corrosion or back to nature as such.
I definitely like your deck, and your take on it thus far. I've been praying for a general like Riku for a loooong time now, and pretty much have already had a deck built for him (Intet was a good stand-in though). Here are just a few suggestions you may want to consider:
1. I would absolutely cut Rite of Replication for Spitting Image. Reusable copy effects are amazing in the format, and it's also reusable Commander kill.
2. You should probably make room for Life from the Loam and the cycle lands. All of them are good on their own, and Life works pretty well with fetch lands too (and Strip Mine)
3. Add Bogardan Hellkite. Now. In the two years I've been playing this deck, there still is no creature out there that does a better job at racing people (especially with Kiki-Jiki). He is an unreal finisher, and vastly underrated in EDH
4. Ummm...Terastodon? Enough said
5. Try making the deck more consistent. Will all the shuffle effects you will be using, Scroll Rack is amazing. Always nice to be able to toss things back you don't need.
6. Lurking Predators is another great card, and works very well with scroll rack. However, you will probably need a higher creature density before you put it in
7. Without sounding like an ass, you deck is just trying to be too cute in some of the things it's doing. Crystal Shard shenanigans are nice, but slow you down from putting actual pressure on people. Remember, you still have to win...and are going to need to be able to exert some pressure to do so. RUG decks either need to win via combo (which it seems you have strayed away from...THANK YOU!!! I've done the same, and with a much increased play experience), or beatdown. Playing too much of a controlling game will get you behind a dedicated control deck, and you will just lose. Make sure to remember to keep up the pressure throughout the game
8. What good answers do you have to opposing forces? A few board wipes are nice, but in the grand scheme of things, aren't going to save you. Constant Mists is always a good idea...consider it
9. Play Regrowth. You'll thank me
10. Make room for Ulamog and Kozilek. They have saved my ass more times than I can count
And last but not least...
Don't get too caught up in your Commander. While Riku is AMAZING and will certainly help, make sure you are still going to be able to take care of business without him. Like I said, little consistency boosts and redundancy are the difference between a decent EDH deck, and one that you will have fun playing for years. On that note...don't let anyone convince you to cut Mimic Vat. Lol
Here is an article Sean McKeown wrote on SCG about my Intet deck about a month ago. He has some great advice about a few things with the colors, some of the cards, and other things. While I don't agree with him on everything (still playing Bribery), the article is definitely worth reading for anyone trying to do stuff thats similar is purpose. There have been some changes since, but look it up!
We talked already, of course. With some of the cuts going on between yours and other suggestions, there's probably going to be a need for more ramp in the deck. I guess my thing is that I'm still new to green and I need to stop worrying about the 3 and 4cmc slots, play some ramp, and worry more about 6 and 7 CMC slots.
Skullclamp is probably a lot better in the token version of this build I know some guys are running.
I think the Ooze is going to make it. He is pretty awesome and he's repeatable without jumping through hoops.
Intuition is a bit out of my budget right now (I think you'd agree that Survival would be more important?) but it's really a great idea. I'd have to do a batch swap down the road. I really do like LttL though for recurring lands without being all "CRUCIBLE LOCK YO".
Terastodon will probably get in. I'm just a green noob is all and I figured the Primus would be enough.
Same goes for Spitting Image. A later poster had me covered there as well.
Here are just a few suggestions you may want to consider:
Spitting Image: Rite is out, Spitting Image is in. I get the message, folks! When I said earlier I wanted to slaughter some sacred cows, this is EXACTLY what I had in mind.
Loam: LttL and some cycling lands would be a sweet draw engine. Thanks!
Hellkite: I'm not so sure about him but I love the flash and from a style perspective, I'd like for the deck to actually have some red in it. Hellkite seems like a good way to get some reach and some red in there at the same time. Holds swords like a boss too. And hahahahahaha with Kiki-Jiki.
Terastodon: Will get in there too. Going to increase the curve overall in this deck I think.
Scroll Rack: I have definitely thought of this. With more land ramp it will be bananas. I wonder if it will be redundant with Sylvan Library...
Lurking Predators: You're right that I need more creatures to support Predators, though it's awesome that creatures coming into play off of it trigger Riku.
Cuteness: You're probably right as much as I don't want to admit it. Maybe time to get a little tougher. This is a different beast for me as I'm not used to having access to ramp.
Constant Mists: Wow. Forgot about this one even existing.
Regrowth: Eh, I'm not so sure about it. I like stuff like Restock or Praetor's Counsel better. I'll think about it.
Eldrazi: I think I may draw the line at "fat" here. I know they are good but I just don't know how much I want the curve to move towards these guys. Reading your article, I noticed McKown cut your own Eldrazi... (good read btw, thanks much!).
I'll take a good long look at the decklist (been doing this daily it seems) and try to amp up the bite and consistency. I maybe just need to take a second crack at it from scratch with a different vision in mind.
Thanks much to everyone! I'll be happy to keep taking your suggestions.
EDIT: All kinds of changes made. We're fatter overall with a lot more card draw. I'm not sure about the amount of ramp/land search I've got in here (too much? Too little?) so if you've got any suggestions I'd be happy to hear from you.
I notice you do not have any of the blue transmute spells. They are actually really, really good. Transmute 1,2,3 allows you to get answers, draw, ramp, and important stuff like Survival, Sylvan. Get those two spells out and you should get to your win condition (you do need to decide on one). On the topic of your land, I think you may have too much and I would probably take some out to add ramp, 11-12 spells/artifacts.
@Sonik:
About intuition v. survival.
They're the same price... but survival is constant while intuition has been on the rise. (got mine 2 months ago @ 17, so yeah, its going up!)
Thus I'd go for intuition first since it'll just keep going up prolly while I expect survival to stay constant.
Besides, survival has fauna shaman as a poor mans replacement.
Furthermore, GSZ, Chord, Worldly tutor can all do a similar job.
There is NOTHING that does what intuition does.
Simply put, drawing that and knowing you can depending on the situation either make yourself a HUGE threat by tossing spitting image, LFTL, and, say genesis to it, or do the E-Witness, Body Double, insert-card-you-want-to-tutor combo, or numerous other combos just make it so insanely versatile its awesome.
So in summary: You can pick up a 25 dollar survival any time. A 25 dollar intuition may go extinct very soon.
Or maybe I overreact lol.
Survival is an insane card, don't get me wrong.
I'm running both in my riku deck (unless it ends up being animar, still on the fence X_x) but I feel like it may be higher priority than survival due to its higher potential for price increase. (or is survival going up? Haven't checked, but hasn't it been 25 ever since the ban?)
Also, unlike survival it can be duped with riku, which leads you to infinite tutoring via eternal witness/body double/restock being chosen on the 2nd package)
EDORT:
I've been testing chaos warp in my cockatrice build:
Don't forget that it doesn't let them draw, they reveal the top card, if its a permanent it comes into play.
for 3 mana, the best type of general kill possible with a large chance of hitting land (who cares) a small chance of hitting a better creature than the general/some better artifact, walker or enchant, and a chance of hitting sorcery or instant and literally doing nothing for them, I'd say its worth it.
Its the best no-conditions general/creature kill these colors have.
I notice you do not have any of the blue transmute spells. They are actually really, really good. Transmute 1,2,3 allows you to get answers, draw, ramp, and important stuff like Survival, Sylvan. Get those two spells out and you should get to your win condition (you do need to decide on one). On the topic of your land, I think you may have too much and I would probably take some out to add ramp, 11-12 spells/artifacts.
Seriously though, if anything, Muddle the Mixture would be the one I'd be most interested in playing in this deck. Cracking some fetches and cyclers and then grabbing Life from the Loam seems like a great draw engine. I put it in here for a few minutes and took it out but it could very well have a place in the deck.
As for my land, I'm sorry but at the moment I just won't play less than 38 lands. I understand with some more acceleration I could get out of the gate faster at the cost of consistency but when I start testing this next week I want to be someplace I'm familiar with mana-wise before I reach out into high-accel packages like tedv's lists and MCR's "Boros Strikes Back" Jor Kadeen. I may go to 37 but for now I'm a bit of a fraidy cat there.
I love Genesis Wave. Last week this deck had a lot more permanents in it than it does this week so I'm thinking I'm not so sure about the relevant permanent count this time around. Would I cut something like Vorinclex (another permanent...)? Woodfall Primus? A weenie?
Mind's desire doesn't do a lot here for me though I think. I have some cheap tutors and stuff but I don't want to waste them on a storm count. Between the three top-of-library manipulators and the ramp in here already, I shouldn't really have problems with mana that I need to cast Mind's Desire to get free spells.
You make great points about which I should get first. I'll shoot for Intuition. Thanks very much. As for Chaos Warp, a lot of folks are pooh-poohing its randomness but I think it's totally worth it for such a powerful effect. If the RC ever changes the rules for tucking that might change (here's hoping they don't), but for now, tuck for :2mana::symr: is really, really frickin good. And your opponent can't even activate library manipulation in response to the tuck since the tuck, shuffle and reveal all happen at once.
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Would love some additional feedback on Genesis Wave. Also sounds like I really need an Intuition...
I don't think it's fair to compare an Intet deck to a Riku deck, unless the Intet player is just playing Intet for his colors. If you plan on building around Intet even a little bit, the cards that you would use to make Intet better (by manipulating the top card of your library) are not necessarily good with Riku, and vice versa. Riku is all about copying creatures, instants, and/or sorceries, so any card that isn't a potential copier for Riku should be heavily scrutinized.
That being said, my future Riku list will have both Survival and Birthing Pod in there (along with my foil Squee). The list will inevitably have a large number of creatures, and ideally it will have an answer to almost every threat, so being able to repeatedly dig up those answers is invaluable.
One card that my future list will NOT have is Vorinclex. The only way I'd ever stoop down to that level is if I stopped caring about whether or not the rest of the table enjoyed playing the game, or if I suddenly became the Archenemy.
I'll also vouch for the effectiveness of Bo-kite, and suggest adding Inferno Titan if you want more creature killing.
I would cut the following cards from your list:
- Sylvan Library: This seems like something that belongs in an Intet list, not a Riku list. You're playing blue, so you can always find more draw power. This doesn't interact at all with Riku.
- Green Sun's Zenith: This is a fine card most of the time, but you're a three-color deck and this only gets green creatures, and sooner or later you will need to tutor for a non-green creature and fail because of this.
- Oblivion Stone: Again, usually a fine card, but in this deck with this general, I'd rather play something like Chain Reaction.
- Scroll Rack: Another fine card that probably works better in Intet than in Riku.
Hey man thanks for chiming in. You're right that all the library manipulation I have makes it look like an Intet deck and I'm not sure I have liked that. I'm still not totally comfortable with the decklist and it shows, doesn't it?
Sylvan Library: I have already expressed slight misgivings about this in previous posts in the realm of having too much library manipulation. I think I was running Future Sight at one point which would have made this card a lot better. I'm prepared to cut it. I'm actually bidding on an Intuition right now on eBay. If it comes through, this will be the cut, absolutely.
GSZ: Terastodon and Primetime solve lots of problems and Seedborn Muse can flat out destroy. The other cool thing about GSZ and other "straight-to-the-battlefield" tutors is that with enough mana, Riku can copy the spell AND BOTH creatures that are searched for. I'm not crazy about cutting it just yet but I will consider it. It's a bummer I can't go get Consecrated Sphinx with it and I know that Chord of Calling is like 10 times better in this deck. And cutting creature tutors makes Genesis Wave better, which leads me to...
Vorinclex: I didn't like him the minute I put him in. I know he's powerful but he's strong in that "jerk" kind of way that isn't really necessary I think. I think Genesis Wave will be taking his place.
Inferno Titan: I actually replaced him for Hellkite. Good to see that there others who will vouch for the hellkite. Green mana makes the 8 CMC realistic. He might find a spot back in though. He's the first 6 CMC beater in line that isn't in the list already.
Oblivion Stone: The one plus here is Academy Ruins making it recurrable if necessary. It's not my favorite card by any means but being able to bring it back for 3 mana is pretty bananas. If I were to replace it with an instant/sorcery sweeper, it would be Starstorm, which cycles and is an instant. It's way better than Chain Reaction in a deck with green.
Scroll Rack: I still want to try this because there's a ton of shuffle effects in this deck and there's a good chance the rack will be useful in sculpting my hand even without Intet shenanigans. It actually makes me want to play Oracle of Mul Daya in the 4-drop creature spot which, coincidentally, is very light in the deck and would really help out the birthing pod chain from 3 to 5.
So for now,
Vorinclex--->Genesis Wave
and depending on my good fortune
Sylvan Library--->Intuition
And I want to swap out some form of existing ramp for Oracle of Mul Daya (EDIT: removed Coiling Oracle) and try to squeeze in Inferno Titan.
Also removed Regrowth for Muddle the Mixture. Good/Bad idea? I'm not sure...
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Another question: Is Genesis Wave redundant with Tooth and Nail in a deck with Gamble and Mystical Tutor? My gut tells me I don't need both. What do you guys think? I'd also like more opinions on Green Sun's Zenith. Some are swearing by it here, others say I don't need it at all.
Actually, the more I look at this list, the more I'm not sure about Seedborn Muse shenanigans. I'll take opinions on that as well. I figure it's good enough based on the vigilance alone and the rest is gravy.
So I cut Coiling Oracle and Regrowth for the time being. Am I stupid?
I suppose I'm biased towards Chain Reaction because there is a lot of green in my local meta and Chain Reaction becomes extremely efficient with a lot of guys on the table. I'm sure Starstorm is just fine as well.
I think I would cut one of the non-creature ramp spells before I cut Coiling Oracle. Both trigger off Riku, but Coiling Oracle also helps start a Birthing Pod chain, and it's cheaper to cast.
I suppose I'm biased towards Chain Reaction because there is a lot of green in my local meta and Chain Reaction becomes extremely efficient with a lot of guys on the table. I'm sure Starstorm is just fine as well.
I think I would cut one of the non-creature ramp spells before I cut Coiling Oracle. Both trigger off Riku, but Coiling Oracle also helps start a Birthing Pod chain, and it's cheaper to cast.
Probably Nature's Lore. Thanks.
EDIT: I decided I don't like Kozilek anymore. He cost 10, he can't be copied and he destroys my GY recursion if he ever ends up in there. Will replace... just Regrowth for now because it's solid.
Also decided Reliquary Tower was unnecessary given the level of recursion going on here.
Another question: Is Genesis Wave redundant with Tooth and Nail in a deck with Gamble and Mystical Tutor? My gut tells me I don't need both. What do you guys think? I'd also like more opinions on Green Sun's Zenith. Some are swearing by it here, others say I don't need it at all.
If your deck is high on permanents, I would say yes to Genesis Wave but if most of your focus is on casting and copying spells, leave it out. Green Sun's Zenith is kinda meh to me, I prefer Chord of Calling for the "surprise" factor.
If your deck is high on permanents, I would say yes to Genesis Wave but if most of your focus is on casting and copying spells, leave it out. Green Sun's Zenith is kinda meh to me, I prefer Chord of Calling for the "surprise" factor.
I think I might be good to go for Genesis Wave as an "I win" spell. GSZ though I'm definitely considering cutting. Which leads me to another question for our loyal viewers:
So what gets cut? GSZ or Fauna Shaman seems like they could get the axe. I don't feel it's a bad thing to run Survival and Fauna Shaman together for redundancy.
Take Fauna Shaman out for Survival of the Fittest for now. Fauna Shaman is soooooooo much worse than Survival is. She has summoning sickness and can only do her ability once per turn. I know your commander can make a copy of here and cannot do it to survival but omg Survival is just so much better that its not even a contest. I will try to hit you up with some other alterations tomorrow I gota get out of the office now though.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Take Fauna Shaman out for Survival of the Fittest for now. Fauna Shaman is soooooooo much worse than Survival is. She has summoning sickness and can only do her ability once per turn. I know your commander can make a copy of here and cannot do it to survival but omg Survival is just so much better that its not even a contest. I will try to hit you up with some other alterations tomorrow I gota get out of the office now though.
Yeah I figured that would be the easy choice. Now the harder question: Is it worth it to put Fauna Shaman back in the deck as a second survival?
Right but I gotta make a cut :rolleyes:... (EDIT: Goodbye GSZ. Hello Fauna Shaman)
That is, what to take out to put Fauna Shaman back in.
EDIT: you know what might kick butt here? Artisan of Kozilek can be cast and copied, and BOTH of his reanimation targets (probably survivaled to the yard) can ALSO be copied, making six bodies for the low low cost of 15 mana- two artisans and two of each reanimation target. In that way he plays much nicer than Ulamog and Kozilek. This deck has a serious soft spot for cards that trigger Riku more than once. He could be a great inclusion on the finisher end if Genesis Wave doesn't work out or if I just get tired of casting it (can't imagine though...) Maybe he makes the cut over Woodfall Primus? Yeah, RTFC Sonik
Just for kicks I did the math on Genesis Wave. In this deck, four out of five cards are permanents. That should be enough for a boosted wave to get some work done. Something else would have to get cut for more beaters like Eldrazi, which I'm not sure the deck needs.
Also, I have no idea how Birthing Pod got out of the deck. It's back in over Regrowth, which probably needs to get back in (either it or some variant of it like All Suns' Dawn or Restock).
Yes...yes...and another yes...Worst case scenario he is just a blocker, and he can still be pitched to Survival. You best be putting Anger in there now! Lol
Also, copying Artisan does in fact NOT get you two guys, since it only triggers when you cast him. Another card MUCH better in an Intet deck than Riku. Woodfall Primus is a badass, and will save you many many times.
I know you said Kozilek came out because it screws up graveyard recursion, but in my experience it is much easier to reassemble gy recursion when it is shuffled into your deck, than when it is exiled. The Eldrazi are always good at protecting your stuff in a long game too.
Random question for my own, if I may: If you only have room for Krosan Tusker, OR Yavimaya Elder...which do you choose?
Also, some of your colorless only lands are a little suspect...Tower of the Magistrate that good for you? Try considering Winding Canyons again instead of it...great with Seedborn Muse
Random question for my own, if I may: If you only have room for Krosan Tusker, OR Yavimaya Elder...which do you choose?
Krosan Tusker is just a vanilla 6/5 if you cast it using Intet or Riku, it's cycling is what makes it interesting Yavimaya Elder has a much smaller body but can get you 2-3 cards even when cast with Intet or copied with Riku.
I would go with Yavimaya Elder as an early game blocker which nets you 2 lands when it is sent to the graveyard, or 3 if you just sac it, we have bigger and better things to play late game so Krosan Tusker being "just" a 6/5 doesn't really help you get to the red-zone with how powerful EDH creatures are. My lists also tend to be very basic heavy to be resistant to non-basic LD and because that is what green tutors for so I need all the searching.
Krosan Tusker is just a vanilla 6/5 if you cast it using Intet or Riku, it's cycling is what makes it interesting Yavimaya Elder has a much smaller body but can get you 2-3 cards even when cast with Intet or copied with Riku.
I would go with Yavimaya Elder as an early game blocker which nets you 2 lands when it is sent to the graveyard, or 3 if you just sac it, we have bigger and better things to play late game so Krosan Tusker being "just" a 6/5 doesn't really help you get to the red-zone with how powerful EDH creatures are. My lists also tend to be very basic heavy to be resistant to non-basic LD and because that is what green tutors for so I need all the searching.
Right but I gotta make a cut :rolleyes:... (EDIT: Goodbye GSZ. Hello Fauna Shaman)
That is, what to take out to put Fauna Shaman back in.
EDIT: you know what might kick butt here? Artisan of Kozilek can be cast and copied, and BOTH of his reanimation targets (probably survivaled to the yard) can ALSO be copied, making six bodies for the low low cost of 15 mana- two artisans and two of each reanimation target. In that way he plays much nicer than Ulamog and Kozilek. This deck has a serious soft spot for cards that trigger Riku more than once. He could be a great inclusion on the finisher end if Genesis Wave doesn't work out or if I just get tired of casting it (can't imagine though...) Maybe he makes the cut over Woodfall Primus?
Just for kicks I did the math on Genesis Wave. In this deck, four out of five cards are permanents. That should be enough for a boosted wave to get some work done. Something else would have to get cut for more beaters like Eldrazi, which I'm not sure the deck needs.
Also, I have no idea how Birthing Pod got out of the deck. It's back in over Regrowth, which probably needs to get back in (either it or some variant of it like All Suns' Dawn or Restock).
Ok first of all I have to correct you on this one:
Riku's wording on creatures:
Whenever another nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay {G}{U}. If you do, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield.
This means that you may not copy the eldrazi's abilities because Artisan is worded when you cast him. Riku does not kick in until he is coming into play meaning you will miss this window. Not that the Artisan is bad as having 2 guys who annihilate and or making another copy of whatever you rez are all good options. However what you suggested above will not work.
Also keep in mind that Ulamog and Kozilek are both legendary so if you did use Riku to copy them you would pop them both. Plus you cannot copy them until after their effects would go off so you cannot get doubble effect there either.
As for making the cut over Woodfall Primus... dont do it. Riku can make copies of the primus when he persists as well so you are looking at tonnnnnns of copies of that fatty. So many effects its soooooooo goooood.
I dont know if I would cut GSZ for the fauna shaman... it is a good effect and is often used to go get the shaman or primeval titan. Let me see what I can come up with... I think Muddle the Mixture could be an option for being cut. I would rather have GSZ than a transmute card in this deck.
I would also encourage you to look at some of your spells. You have a lot of spells that cannot benefit from your commander's ability to put 2 copies on the stack. Counterspells such as Spell Crumple do very little to put a second copy on the stack. On the other hand if you were to use something like Spin into Myth you can use your commander to put a second copy on the stack and hit up 2 commanders at the same time. I cant say that you dont loose some utility in doing this but the ability to get a second copy seems like something worth exploiting.
Hummm you need to make room for Cauldron of Souls as well in your decklist. If you use it on your army, your commander sees other creatures coming into play with him and he can pay the mana to kick out copies in a wrath. It seems like a great way to get some extra utility out of them.
I will say something some might find odd but I would consider cutting Mana Reflection for Kodama's Reach. You can use Kodama's to ramp you to an earlier Riku by a turn or you can use it to net 4 lands if Riku is in play. Mana Reflection is great but honestly it is a big target and it doesnt have any synergy with Riku. It does not accelerate him out and other than making a Gen Wave even more lolz I dont see it doing too much for the deck. Having extra mana open is always great but I just see Kodama's Reach as being more versatile at giving you more mana for the deck.
Ohhh and if you ever feel like being a dick to your meta you can always add in Plow Under. Putting someone down 4 land and 4 draws is very very mean. Stunted Growth is another similar effect that is so much fun to hit someone who just drew a bunch of cards with.
I would also encourage you to look at some of your spells. You have a lot of spells that cannot benefit from your commander's ability to put 2 copies on the stack. Counterspells such as Spell Crumple do very little to put a second copy on the stack. On the other hand if you were to use something like Spin into Myth you can use your commander to put a second copy on the stack and hit up 2 commanders at the same time. I cant say that you dont loose some utility in doing this but the ability to get a second copy seems like something worth exploiting.
I think that counterspells benefit tremendously from being copied. It makes your counterspells so much harder to fight against.
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I like counterspells. I don't LOVE them, but I like them. There's definitely a place in my decks for control. I have put a Venser on a Mimic Vat before and won the T-shirt. Generally, I don't like to play more than five or so. And mostly they almost always to something more than just counter a spell. I like stuff like Hinder, Venser, Glen Elendra Archmage, etc.
I don't play more than that mostly because they're not as good in multiplayer as I'd like them to be, but partly because people just don't like having their stuff countered and I'm ok with that. I'd like to be the one playing the threats sometimes too instead of countering them all until their hand is empty and then winning with a 3/1 flier.
Where that takes us with Riku is that I don't want this to be a pure control deck. I want to copy mad creatures and mad spells. I'm bummed that I don't have room for 150 cards in here and that there's no Wild Ricochet in the decklist (note: replace Decimate?? EDIT: DONE!). But I'll test some things out and come back and adjust and that's fine with me.
So there's definitely room for control elements here and I'm going to try the Seeborn Muse/Leyline approach just for kicks. Hello, Mystic Snake.
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Thada Adel Stax WIP
I'm not sure about Skullclamp, either. Most of your guys are too tough to be taken out by Clamp, and you're only packing a couple of sac outlets. I'd probably sub it out for Izzet Chronarch unless you have plans on how to get one of those out reliably.
Also, your Tundra should be a Taiga.
Replacement for primal/loaming shaman?
I mean, yeah its a bear, but that just means its cheap to tutor off of chord of calling.
Plus its more permanent as hate than either of the others, it gains life and potentially beats face.
Also, you should replace tundra with taiga.
(I know that was just a typo tho, so sorry for being a prick :P)
Hmm... other than that... my favorite ETB is terastadon, I saw him mentioned several times, but not why he wasn't being run?
Side note 2: I include a LftL package in every g/u deck, as well as intuition.
I go LftL, spitting image, and genesis or in some cases, some other utility, eternal witness etc.
Plus an LftL package lets you run cycling lands, which make for great card draw/shennanigans.
For example, i worldly tutor in response to a spell, cycle a land, mystic snake! BOOM! safe from discard effects and no one sees it coming!
I know spitting image didn't make the cut, but you should take another look, reusable general kill/huge creature cloning is amazing. 8 mana for 2 extra primeval titans (or whatever else you want) is a great deal.
This may not be for you though, but I've found it really fun.
UWBSharuum the HegemonBWU
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryGU
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU
1. I would absolutely cut Rite of Replication for Spitting Image. Reusable copy effects are amazing in the format, and it's also reusable Commander kill.
2. You should probably make room for Life from the Loam and the cycle lands. All of them are good on their own, and Life works pretty well with fetch lands too (and Strip Mine)
3. Add Bogardan Hellkite. Now. In the two years I've been playing this deck, there still is no creature out there that does a better job at racing people (especially with Kiki-Jiki). He is an unreal finisher, and vastly underrated in EDH
4. Ummm...Terastodon? Enough said
5. Try making the deck more consistent. Will all the shuffle effects you will be using, Scroll Rack is amazing. Always nice to be able to toss things back you don't need.
6. Lurking Predators is another great card, and works very well with scroll rack. However, you will probably need a higher creature density before you put it in
7. Without sounding like an ass, you deck is just trying to be too cute in some of the things it's doing. Crystal Shard shenanigans are nice, but slow you down from putting actual pressure on people. Remember, you still have to win...and are going to need to be able to exert some pressure to do so. RUG decks either need to win via combo (which it seems you have strayed away from...THANK YOU!!! I've done the same, and with a much increased play experience), or beatdown. Playing too much of a controlling game will get you behind a dedicated control deck, and you will just lose. Make sure to remember to keep up the pressure throughout the game
8. What good answers do you have to opposing forces? A few board wipes are nice, but in the grand scheme of things, aren't going to save you. Constant Mists is always a good idea...consider it
9. Play Regrowth. You'll thank me
10. Make room for Ulamog and Kozilek. They have saved my ass more times than I can count
And last but not least...
Don't get too caught up in your Commander. While Riku is AMAZING and will certainly help, make sure you are still going to be able to take care of business without him. Like I said, little consistency boosts and redundancy are the difference between a decent EDH deck, and one that you will have fun playing for years. On that note...don't let anyone convince you to cut Mimic Vat. Lol
Here is an article Sean McKeown wrote on SCG about my Intet deck about a month ago. He has some great advice about a few things with the colors, some of the cards, and other things. While I don't agree with him on everything (still playing Bribery), the article is definitely worth reading for anyone trying to do stuff thats similar is purpose. There have been some changes since, but look it up!
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/multiplayer/21789_99_Problems_Intent_On_Intet.html
I will have my Riku list up on here soon for reference...good luck man!
We talked already, of course. With some of the cuts going on between yours and other suggestions, there's probably going to be a need for more ramp in the deck. I guess my thing is that I'm still new to green and I need to stop worrying about the 3 and 4cmc slots, play some ramp, and worry more about 6 and 7 CMC slots.
Skullclamp is probably a lot better in the token version of this build I know some guys are running.
I think the Ooze is going to make it. He is pretty awesome and he's repeatable without jumping through hoops.
Intuition is a bit out of my budget right now (I think you'd agree that Survival would be more important?) but it's really a great idea. I'd have to do a batch swap down the road. I really do like LttL though for recurring lands without being all "CRUCIBLE LOCK YO".
Terastodon will probably get in. I'm just a green noob is all and I figured the Primus would be enough.
Same goes for Spitting Image. A later poster had me covered there as well.
Spitting Image: Rite is out, Spitting Image is in. I get the message, folks! When I said earlier I wanted to slaughter some sacred cows, this is EXACTLY what I had in mind.
Loam: LttL and some cycling lands would be a sweet draw engine. Thanks!
Hellkite: I'm not so sure about him but I love the flash and from a style perspective, I'd like for the deck to actually have some red in it. Hellkite seems like a good way to get some reach and some red in there at the same time. Holds swords like a boss too. And hahahahahaha with Kiki-Jiki.
Terastodon: Will get in there too. Going to increase the curve overall in this deck I think.
Scroll Rack: I have definitely thought of this. With more land ramp it will be bananas. I wonder if it will be redundant with Sylvan Library...
Lurking Predators: You're right that I need more creatures to support Predators, though it's awesome that creatures coming into play off of it trigger Riku.
Cuteness: You're probably right as much as I don't want to admit it. Maybe time to get a little tougher. This is a different beast for me as I'm not used to having access to ramp.
Constant Mists: Wow. Forgot about this one even existing.
Regrowth: Eh, I'm not so sure about it. I like stuff like Restock or Praetor's Counsel better. I'll think about it.
Eldrazi: I think I may draw the line at "fat" here. I know they are good but I just don't know how much I want the curve to move towards these guys. Reading your article, I noticed McKown cut your own Eldrazi... (good read btw, thanks much!).
I'll take a good long look at the decklist (been doing this daily it seems) and try to amp up the bite and consistency. I maybe just need to take a second crack at it from scratch with a different vision in mind.
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Thanks much to everyone! I'll be happy to keep taking your suggestions.
EDIT: All kinds of changes made. We're fatter overall with a lot more card draw. I'm not sure about the amount of ramp/land search I've got in here (too much? Too little?) so if you've got any suggestions I'd be happy to hear from you.
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:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
About intuition v. survival.
They're the same price... but survival is constant while intuition has been on the rise. (got mine 2 months ago @ 17, so yeah, its going up!)
Thus I'd go for intuition first since it'll just keep going up prolly while I expect survival to stay constant.
Besides, survival has fauna shaman as a poor mans replacement.
Furthermore, GSZ, Chord, Worldly tutor can all do a similar job.
There is NOTHING that does what intuition does.
Simply put, drawing that and knowing you can depending on the situation either make yourself a HUGE threat by tossing spitting image, LFTL, and, say genesis to it, or do the E-Witness, Body Double, insert-card-you-want-to-tutor combo, or numerous other combos just make it so insanely versatile its awesome.
So in summary: You can pick up a 25 dollar survival any time. A 25 dollar intuition may go extinct very soon.
Or maybe I overreact lol.
Survival is an insane card, don't get me wrong.
I'm running both in my riku deck (unless it ends up being animar, still on the fence X_x) but I feel like it may be higher priority than survival due to its higher potential for price increase. (or is survival going up? Haven't checked, but hasn't it been 25 ever since the ban?)
Also, unlike survival it can be duped with riku, which leads you to infinite tutoring via eternal witness/body double/restock being chosen on the 2nd package)
EDORT:
I've been testing chaos warp in my cockatrice build:
Don't forget that it doesn't let them draw, they reveal the top card, if its a permanent it comes into play.
for 3 mana, the best type of general kill possible with a large chance of hitting land (who cares) a small chance of hitting a better creature than the general/some better artifact, walker or enchant, and a chance of hitting sorcery or instant and literally doing nothing for them, I'd say its worth it.
Its the best no-conditions general/creature kill these colors have.
UWBSharuum the HegemonBWU
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryGU
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU
Ahh, but I am sneaky. Do you see Tolaria West?
Seriously though, if anything, Muddle the Mixture would be the one I'd be most interested in playing in this deck. Cracking some fetches and cyclers and then grabbing Life from the Loam seems like a great draw engine. I put it in here for a few minutes and took it out but it could very well have a place in the deck.
As for my land, I'm sorry but at the moment I just won't play less than 38 lands. I understand with some more acceleration I could get out of the gate faster at the cost of consistency but when I start testing this next week I want to be someplace I'm familiar with mana-wise before I reach out into high-accel packages like tedv's lists and MCR's "Boros Strikes Back" Jor Kadeen. I may go to 37 but for now I'm a bit of a fraidy cat there.
I love Genesis Wave. Last week this deck had a lot more permanents in it than it does this week so I'm thinking I'm not so sure about the relevant permanent count this time around. Would I cut something like Vorinclex (another permanent...)? Woodfall Primus? A weenie?
Mind's desire doesn't do a lot here for me though I think. I have some cheap tutors and stuff but I don't want to waste them on a storm count. Between the three top-of-library manipulators and the ramp in here already, I shouldn't really have problems with mana that I need to cast Mind's Desire to get free spells.
You make great points about which I should get first. I'll shoot for Intuition. Thanks very much. As for Chaos Warp, a lot of folks are pooh-poohing its randomness but I think it's totally worth it for such a powerful effect. If the RC ever changes the rules for tucking that might change (here's hoping they don't), but for now, tuck for :2mana::symr: is really, really frickin good. And your opponent can't even activate library manipulation in response to the tuck since the tuck, shuffle and reveal all happen at once.
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Would love some additional feedback on Genesis Wave. Also sounds like I really need an Intuition...
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That being said, my future Riku list will have both Survival and Birthing Pod in there (along with my foil Squee). The list will inevitably have a large number of creatures, and ideally it will have an answer to almost every threat, so being able to repeatedly dig up those answers is invaluable.
One card that my future list will NOT have is Vorinclex. The only way I'd ever stoop down to that level is if I stopped caring about whether or not the rest of the table enjoyed playing the game, or if I suddenly became the Archenemy.
I'll also vouch for the effectiveness of Bo-kite, and suggest adding Inferno Titan if you want more creature killing.
I would cut the following cards from your list:
- Sylvan Library: This seems like something that belongs in an Intet list, not a Riku list. You're playing blue, so you can always find more draw power. This doesn't interact at all with Riku.
- Green Sun's Zenith: This is a fine card most of the time, but you're a three-color deck and this only gets green creatures, and sooner or later you will need to tutor for a non-green creature and fail because of this.
- Oblivion Stone: Again, usually a fine card, but in this deck with this general, I'd rather play something like Chain Reaction.
- Scroll Rack: Another fine card that probably works better in Intet than in Riku.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Hey man thanks for chiming in. You're right that all the library manipulation I have makes it look like an Intet deck and I'm not sure I have liked that. I'm still not totally comfortable with the decklist and it shows, doesn't it?
Sylvan Library: I have already expressed slight misgivings about this in previous posts in the realm of having too much library manipulation. I think I was running Future Sight at one point which would have made this card a lot better. I'm prepared to cut it. I'm actually bidding on an Intuition right now on eBay. If it comes through, this will be the cut, absolutely.
GSZ: Terastodon and Primetime solve lots of problems and Seedborn Muse can flat out destroy. The other cool thing about GSZ and other "straight-to-the-battlefield" tutors is that with enough mana, Riku can copy the spell AND BOTH creatures that are searched for. I'm not crazy about cutting it just yet but I will consider it. It's a bummer I can't go get Consecrated Sphinx with it and I know that Chord of Calling is like 10 times better in this deck. And cutting creature tutors makes Genesis Wave better, which leads me to...
Vorinclex: I didn't like him the minute I put him in. I know he's powerful but he's strong in that "jerk" kind of way that isn't really necessary I think. I think Genesis Wave will be taking his place.
Inferno Titan: I actually replaced him for Hellkite. Good to see that there others who will vouch for the hellkite. Green mana makes the 8 CMC realistic. He might find a spot back in though. He's the first 6 CMC beater in line that isn't in the list already.
Oblivion Stone: The one plus here is Academy Ruins making it recurrable if necessary. It's not my favorite card by any means but being able to bring it back for 3 mana is pretty bananas. If I were to replace it with an instant/sorcery sweeper, it would be Starstorm, which cycles and is an instant. It's way better than Chain Reaction in a deck with green.
Scroll Rack: I still want to try this because there's a ton of shuffle effects in this deck and there's a good chance the rack will be useful in sculpting my hand even without Intet shenanigans. It actually makes me want to play Oracle of Mul Daya in the 4-drop creature spot which, coincidentally, is very light in the deck and would really help out the birthing pod chain from 3 to 5.
So for now,
Vorinclex--->Genesis Wave
and depending on my good fortune
Sylvan Library--->Intuition
And I want to swap out some form of existing ramp for Oracle of Mul Daya (EDIT: removed Coiling Oracle) and try to squeeze in Inferno Titan.
Also removed Regrowth for Muddle the Mixture. Good/Bad idea? I'm not sure...
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Another question: Is Genesis Wave redundant with Tooth and Nail in a deck with Gamble and Mystical Tutor? My gut tells me I don't need both. What do you guys think? I'd also like more opinions on Green Sun's Zenith. Some are swearing by it here, others say I don't need it at all.
Actually, the more I look at this list, the more I'm not sure about Seedborn Muse shenanigans. I'll take opinions on that as well. I figure it's good enough based on the vigilance alone and the rest is gravy.
So I cut Coiling Oracle and Regrowth for the time being. Am I stupid?
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Thada Adel Stax WIP
I think I would cut one of the non-creature ramp spells before I cut Coiling Oracle. Both trigger off Riku, but Coiling Oracle also helps start a Birthing Pod chain, and it's cheaper to cast.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Probably Nature's Lore. Thanks.
EDIT: I decided I don't like Kozilek anymore. He cost 10, he can't be copied and he destroys my GY recursion if he ever ends up in there. Will replace... just Regrowth for now because it's solid.
Also decided Reliquary Tower was unnecessary given the level of recursion going on here.
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EDIT EDIT: NOW WITH 100% MORE INTUITION!
Should I cut Gamble now? Extra Credit: Replace it with a red card. I don't want the deck to be purely U/G.
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Thada Adel Stax WIP
If your deck is high on permanents, I would say yes to Genesis Wave but if most of your focus is on casting and copying spells, leave it out. Green Sun's Zenith is kinda meh to me, I prefer Chord of Calling for the "surprise" factor.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I think I might be good to go for Genesis Wave as an "I win" spell. GSZ though I'm definitely considering cutting. Which leads me to another question for our loyal viewers:
I GOT A SURVIVAL YO
So what gets cut? GSZ or Fauna Shaman seems like they could get the axe. I don't feel it's a bad thing to run Survival and Fauna Shaman together for redundancy.
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Yeah I figured that would be the easy choice. Now the harder question: Is it worth it to put Fauna Shaman back in the deck as a second survival?
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Yes, so much yes.
That is, what to take out to put Fauna Shaman back in.
EDIT: you know what might kick butt here? Artisan of Kozilek can be cast and copied, and BOTH of his reanimation targets (probably survivaled to the yard) can ALSO be copied, making six bodies for the low low cost of 15 mana- two artisans and two of each reanimation target. In that way he plays much nicer than Ulamog and Kozilek. This deck has a serious soft spot for cards that trigger Riku more than once. He could be a great inclusion on the finisher end if Genesis Wave doesn't work out or if I just get tired of casting it (can't imagine though...) Maybe he makes the cut over Woodfall Primus?Yeah, RTFC SonikJust for kicks I did the math on Genesis Wave. In this deck, four out of five cards are permanents. That should be enough for a boosted wave to get some work done. Something else would have to get cut for more beaters like Eldrazi, which I'm not sure the deck needs.
Also, I have no idea how Birthing Pod got out of the deck. It's back in over Regrowth, which probably needs to get back in (either it or some variant of it like All Suns' Dawn or Restock).
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Also, copying Artisan does in fact NOT get you two guys, since it only triggers when you cast him. Another card MUCH better in an Intet deck than Riku. Woodfall Primus is a badass, and will save you many many times.
I know you said Kozilek came out because it screws up graveyard recursion, but in my experience it is much easier to reassemble gy recursion when it is shuffled into your deck, than when it is exiled. The Eldrazi are always good at protecting your stuff in a long game too.
Random question for my own, if I may: If you only have room for Krosan Tusker, OR Yavimaya Elder...which do you choose?
Also, some of your colorless only lands are a little suspect...Tower of the Magistrate that good for you? Try considering Winding Canyons again instead of it...great with Seedborn Muse
Krosan Tusker is just a vanilla 6/5 if you cast it using Intet or Riku, it's cycling is what makes it interesting
Yavimaya Elder has a much smaller body but can get you 2-3 cards even when cast with Intet or copied with Riku.
I would go with Yavimaya Elder as an early game blocker which nets you 2 lands when it is sent to the graveyard, or 3 if you just sac it, we have bigger and better things to play late game so Krosan Tusker being "just" a 6/5 doesn't really help you get to the red-zone with how powerful EDH creatures are. My lists also tend to be very basic heavy to be resistant to non-basic LD and because that is what green tutors for so I need all the searching.
"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
Legacy: UW Miracle, U MUC, UW StoneBlade, U Merfolk, R Burn, & UB Reanimator
EDH: U Azami, Lady of Scrolls & URG Riku of Two Reflections
Casual: UR Dragonstorm, UB Dralnu-Teachings, U NinjaFae, & UR Izzet EDH
Agreed. Yavimaya Elder will get you extra cards, Krosan Tusker mostly just there for cycling.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Ok first of all I have to correct you on this one:
Riku's wording on creatures:
Whenever another nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay {G}{U}. If you do, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield.
This means that you may not copy the eldrazi's abilities because Artisan is worded when you cast him. Riku does not kick in until he is coming into play meaning you will miss this window. Not that the Artisan is bad as having 2 guys who annihilate and or making another copy of whatever you rez are all good options. However what you suggested above will not work.
Also keep in mind that Ulamog and Kozilek are both legendary so if you did use Riku to copy them you would pop them both. Plus you cannot copy them until after their effects would go off so you cannot get doubble effect there either.
As for making the cut over Woodfall Primus... dont do it. Riku can make copies of the primus when he persists as well so you are looking at tonnnnnns of copies of that fatty. So many effects its soooooooo goooood.
I dont know if I would cut GSZ for the fauna shaman... it is a good effect and is often used to go get the shaman or primeval titan. Let me see what I can come up with... I think Muddle the Mixture could be an option for being cut. I would rather have GSZ than a transmute card in this deck.
I would also encourage you to look at some of your spells. You have a lot of spells that cannot benefit from your commander's ability to put 2 copies on the stack. Counterspells such as Spell Crumple do very little to put a second copy on the stack. On the other hand if you were to use something like Spin into Myth you can use your commander to put a second copy on the stack and hit up 2 commanders at the same time. I cant say that you dont loose some utility in doing this but the ability to get a second copy seems like something worth exploiting.
Hummm you need to make room for Cauldron of Souls as well in your decklist. If you use it on your army, your commander sees other creatures coming into play with him and he can pay the mana to kick out copies in a wrath. It seems like a great way to get some extra utility out of them.
I will say something some might find odd but I would consider cutting Mana Reflection for Kodama's Reach. You can use Kodama's to ramp you to an earlier Riku by a turn or you can use it to net 4 lands if Riku is in play. Mana Reflection is great but honestly it is a big target and it doesnt have any synergy with Riku. It does not accelerate him out and other than making a Gen Wave even more lolz I dont see it doing too much for the deck. Having extra mana open is always great but I just see Kodama's Reach as being more versatile at giving you more mana for the deck.
Ohhh and if you ever feel like being a dick to your meta you can always add in Plow Under. Putting someone down 4 land and 4 draws is very very mean. Stunted Growth is another similar effect that is so much fun to hit someone who just drew a bunch of cards with.
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I think that counterspells benefit tremendously from being copied. It makes your counterspells so much harder to fight against.