In my build, 7 shocks + 7 duals (and no basics) is plenty enough for knight, especially with recursion. Plus, most lines of play will prioritize green.
All arguments against KotR, apply to Valakut as well. However, Knight is much stronger and requires less support. Valakut is the last win-con for me as well.
1. Maze's End
2. Strip Mine recursion
3. Child of alara recursion/opponents flips table
4. Marit Lage
5. Child of alara beat down
I don't believe in courser. Easily destroyed, generates no value other than life gain, seems like a tempo loss also. I don't want to spend my turn 3 and tap out for it.
Psychic vortex doesn't draw a card the turn you play it but costs you something the turn you play it. That alone seems like a none starter for me. At 2UU why not Jace TMS?
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
That's one of the main deck building constrains in this deck (I.e. being able to play from the graveyard). With life from the loam being an important engine, you have to be okay with business cards heading to the graveyard.
I don't know if you start playing cards like Mizzix's mastery because then you start going down another road. You have to ask yourself if you'd be okay milling any certain card in your deck before you include it.
However, between all the tutors and eternal witness+ sun titan + Volrath's stronghold, wouldn't you be okay without mastery. I'm not going to doubt the power of Mizzix's mastery (which I think is stronger than yawg win) but the application in this build seems questionable.
That's one of the main deck building constrains in this deck (I.e. being able to play from the graveyard). With life from the loam being an important engine, you have to be okay with business cards heading to the graveyard.
I don't know if you start playing cards like Mizzix's mastery because then you start going down another road. You have to ask yourself if you'd be okay milling any certain card in your deck before you include it.
However, between all the tutors and eternal witness+ sun titan + Volrath's stronghold, wouldn't you be okay without mastery. I'm not going to doubt the power of Mizzix's mastery (which I think is stronger than yawg win) but the application in this build seems questionable.
I agree with crim here: it's a risk you take in playing the deck. If it's a problem, you can run MM or just general recursion. Otherwise you're diluting the deck with narrow answers. This is a lands deck and will not have many high value targets for Mizzix's Mastery that Creeping Corrosion wouldn't also do (but with more general application).
Just put this list together from a lifetime of spare parts (minus Island of Wak-Wak and Diamond Valley because I dont own them and they're expensive, but do own Bazaar of Baghdad so it's in). I like how it's always a good deck to have around because from now into the future we can play cool lands that Wizards prints. It's a good deck to have on the side, and I'm going to include it in my Meta. As I'm winding down my collection and purchases, it's nice to have a deck to breath new life into older forgotten cards.
Just put this list together from a lifetime of spare parts (minus Island of Wak-Wak and Diamond Valley because I dont own them and they're expensive, but do own Bazaar of Baghdad so it's in). I like how it's always a good deck to have around because from now into the future we can play cool lands that Wizards prints. It's a good deck to have on the side, and I'm going to include it in my Meta. As I'm winding down my collection and purchases, it's nice to have a deck to breath new life into older forgotten cards.
Just put this list together from a lifetime of spare parts (minus Island of Wak-Wak and Diamond Valley because I dont own them and they're expensive, but do own Bazaar of Baghdad so it's in). I like how it's always a good deck to have around because from now into the future we can play cool lands that Wizards prints. It's a good deck to have on the side, and I'm going to include it in my Meta. As I'm winding down my collection and purchases, it's nice to have a deck to breath new life into older forgotten cards.
I'm glad to see appreciation for this archetype, one that truly shows the value of deck building and history of the game.
Diamond valley is important though. I hope that you can find one eventually.
Just put this list together from a lifetime of spare parts (minus Island of Wak-Wak and Diamond Valley because I dont own them and they're expensive, but do own Bazaar of Baghdad so it's in). I like how it's always a good deck to have around because from now into the future we can play cool lands that Wizards prints. It's a good deck to have on the side, and I'm going to include it in my Meta. As I'm winding down my collection and purchases, it's nice to have a deck to breath new life into older forgotten cards.
I'm glad to see appreciation for this archetype, one that truly shows the value of deck building and history of the game.
Diamond valley is important though. I hope that you can find one eventually.
Eh, its somewhat important. I don't picture spending the $150+ on 1 card, this is supposed to be a home for my older stuff and not a costly project. I added Phyrexian Tower, High Market and Miren, the Moaning Well instead, they're not as good but I already have them. I also wanted to fool around with Titania, Protector of Argoth because I never really had a deck for her before.
Valakut is a win condition. More precisely, running Valakut can turn Scapeshift, Splendid Reclamation, or Creeping Renaissance into win conditions. Valakut can also be an incredibly powerful removal engine.
Knight is vastly inferior as a win condition. It provides a solid tutoring engine though. And it has more value than Valakut if you can't find Prismatic Omen.
Personally I prefer the superior win condition and the removal utility to the extra tutoring. My deck needs the removal more. As a beat stick, I'm not really impressed by KotR. I want evasion plus the ability to one-shot with less than 40 damage (as in our general or Inkmoth).
Lastly, Valakut is a land. It's easier for us to find and recur, as well as being much harder to kill (including collateral damage from our own board wipes. This is especially relevant if you are not running lots of Forets & Plains and you need the combo.
So I (respectfully) offer a different opinion. I do admit it must be pretty nuts when you get the right board going! But "better than Valakut by a mile" is hard for me to accept.
EDIT - I'll see if I find a copy and give it a test run!
Eh, its somewhat important. I don't picture spending the $150+ on 1 card, this is supposed to be a home for my older stuff and not a costly project. I added Phyrexian Tower, High Market and Miren, the Moaning Well instead, they're not as good but I already have them. I also wanted to fool around with Titania, Protector of Argoth because I never really had a deck for her before.
I agree that Diamond Valley is a great card for us but easy to live without. The substitutes are really quite good.
Valakut is a win condition. More precisely, running Valakut can turn Scapeshift, Splendid Reclamation, or Creeping Renaissance into win conditions. Valakut can also be an incredibly powerful removal engine.
Knight is vastly inferior as a win condition. It provides a solid tutoring engine though. And it has more value than Valakut if you can't find Prismatic Omen.
Personally I prefer the superior win condition and the removal utility to the extra tutoring. My deck needs the removal more. As a beat stick, I'm not really impressed by KotR. I want evasion plus the ability to one-shot with less than 40 damage (as in our general or Inkmoth).
Lastly, Valakut is a land. It's easier for us to find and recur, as well as being much harder to kill (including collateral damage from our own board wipes. This is especially relevant if you are not running lots of Forets & Plains and you need the combo.
So I (respectfully) offer a different opinion. I do admit it must be pretty nuts when you get the right board going! But "better than Valakut by a mile" is hard for me to accept.
EDIT - I'll see if I find a copy and give it a test run! Smile
I've predicated my build upon tutors. Therefore, Knight of the Reliquary is far superior in my build. I also have avoided many lands that others play in favor of a manabase completely based on Fetches + ABU duals + Shocklands. My manabase eschews cards like Command Tower & Rainbow Lands for every fetchable land (even ones not heavily played like Plateau).
However, I'd still posit that KotR is stronger than Valakut in most other builds as well. Valakut is worst than a come into play tapped Mountain (since you can't fetch it) unless it's winning the game. And that requires a setup of Prismatic Omen + Scapeshift/Splendid Reclamation. Even then, it's not a lock to kill anyone (40 life is 14 landfall triggers) much less take out multiple players. I just believe that unless something happened to your Maze's End, if you're going to Scapeshift that many lands, you're just going to go for that instead.
So if, you're using Valakut to kill players it will require recursion of Scapeshift (and I guess a huge amount of lands left in your deck) or Splendid Reclamation (after you find a way to fill your yard again). You could also set up a Manabond + Trade Routes engine to facilitate a Valakut win. A very beautiful and satisfying way to win if you can make it happen. And every single build that I've seen has a much easier time recurring a KotR (creature) rather than sorceries simply for the sake of Child itself.
I believe that KotR simply leads to more wins or winning situations because a tutor every single turn is just stronger than a card that's only there for winning (and difficult wins at that). Also, imagine a KotR after a Scapeshift or with Prismatic Omen. It's even better paired with those than Valakut.
Been a long time since I've posted here, I had to take a hiatus(lost my password for this. So I've been reading an unable to post.)
I've updated my list over the last several months. Things of particular note:
I have converted the manabase to include the maximum number of forest typed duals and every fetch that gets a forest. Color consistency is now amazing. I haven't not hit my colors in months.
CIPT duals have proven to be effective
Gatecreeper Vine is the truth
I have begun playing a package of 2-Card "Endless boardwipe" packages in lieu of other board wipes. Each card that recycles the board wipe has other uses as well.
Riftsweeper has proven necessary in my meta.
I cut inkmoth nexus as a win-con. It drew to much ire for the benefit it provided. Replaced with Door To Nothingness which has presented fantastic results.
Sunder and Deathcloud both float in and out of the deck. Both post great results but it is hard to justify them over other options.
I feel like the effect isn't powerful enough to justify having to pay 4 mana of various colors for. Similar effects can be played for a much less prohibitive cost. Ex: Rites of Flourishing
Has anyone done any testing with the gay kings in the 99 of child? Card advantage and acceleration, seems like it could be playable.
You lose access to Ad Nauseam and The Gitrog Monster, two very valuable cards. In my estimation Blue isn't as necessary as having access to Black. Im not in love with the symmetrical effect.
I think it wont be good enough in a singleton deck.
I was thinking the same thing, but there are lots of tutors and ways other decks set up singleton combos. It may not be worth being in the 99, but I don't think it's not worth trying. It's a lot of draw power.
That's because you are not doing it right. With Omen on board and just six lands you can Scapeshift into Valakut, Vesuva, and any four lands for 36 direct damage!
Incidentally, more often than not I end up with at least one Gateland in exile.
Valakut is worst than a come into play tapped Mountain (since you can't fetch it) unless it's winning the game.
Except that Valakut + Omen is crazy good removal. IMO you are criminally undervaluing Valakut! If you are already running Vesuva & Omen, Valakut does great work for a single card.
I've remembered that I'm meaning to add a Living Wish. This lets me run creatures and lands that are otherwise a bit too situational - and also just lets me run more fun cards that didn't make the cut. I'm sure KotR will always have a home in my deck once I'm up to 115! If I really like her, she can get promoted to MD.
WURG Thrasios, Triton Hero + Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder
UBR Inalla, Archmage Ritualist
So...what about Valakut?
I think KotR is better than Valakut by a mile.
All arguments against KotR, apply to Valakut as well. However, Knight is much stronger and requires less support. Valakut is the last win-con for me as well.
1. Maze's End
2. Strip Mine recursion
3. Child of alara recursion/opponents flips table
4. Marit Lage
5. Child of alara beat down
I don't believe in courser. Easily destroyed, generates no value other than life gain, seems like a tempo loss also. I don't want to spend my turn 3 and tap out for it.
Psychic vortex doesn't draw a card the turn you play it but costs you something the turn you play it. That alone seems like a none starter for me. At 2UU why not Jace TMS?
EDIT: I also notice that you have 9 sorceries on the list yet it was listed as 10. Your deck might be missing a card?
EDIT 2: Then I counted your lands, you have 58 lands instead of 57, so it's 100 total.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Self milling and then casting Splendid Reclamation would be awesome - unless Splendid Reclamation gets put into the graveyard. I would also run Mizzix's Mastery as well if that were the strategy.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I don't know if you start playing cards like Mizzix's mastery because then you start going down another road. You have to ask yourself if you'd be okay milling any certain card in your deck before you include it.
However, between all the tutors and eternal witness+ sun titan + Volrath's stronghold, wouldn't you be okay without mastery. I'm not going to doubt the power of Mizzix's mastery (which I think is stronger than yawg win) but the application in this build seems questionable.
I agree with crim here: it's a risk you take in playing the deck. If it's a problem, you can run MM or just general recursion. Otherwise you're diluting the deck with narrow answers. This is a lands deck and will not have many high value targets for Mizzix's Mastery that Creeping Corrosion wouldn't also do (but with more general application).
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I'm glad to see appreciation for this archetype, one that truly shows the value of deck building and history of the game.
Diamond valley is important though. I hope that you can find one eventually.
Eh, its somewhat important. I don't picture spending the $150+ on 1 card, this is supposed to be a home for my older stuff and not a costly project. I added Phyrexian Tower, High Market and Miren, the Moaning Well instead, they're not as good but I already have them. I also wanted to fool around with Titania, Protector of Argoth because I never really had a deck for her before.
Valakut is a win condition. More precisely, running Valakut can turn Scapeshift, Splendid Reclamation, or Creeping Renaissance into win conditions. Valakut can also be an incredibly powerful removal engine.
Knight is vastly inferior as a win condition. It provides a solid tutoring engine though. And it has more value than Valakut if you can't find Prismatic Omen.
Personally I prefer the superior win condition and the removal utility to the extra tutoring. My deck needs the removal more. As a beat stick, I'm not really impressed by KotR. I want evasion plus the ability to one-shot with less than 40 damage (as in our general or Inkmoth).
Lastly, Valakut is a land. It's easier for us to find and recur, as well as being much harder to kill (including collateral damage from our own board wipes. This is especially relevant if you are not running lots of Forets & Plains and you need the combo.
So I (respectfully) offer a different opinion. I do admit it must be pretty nuts when you get the right board going! But "better than Valakut by a mile" is hard for me to accept.
EDIT - I'll see if I find a copy and give it a test run!
I agree that Diamond Valley is a great card for us but easy to live without. The substitutes are really quite good.
I'm very happy you are enjoing this archetype!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I've predicated my build upon tutors. Therefore, Knight of the Reliquary is far superior in my build. I also have avoided many lands that others play in favor of a manabase completely based on Fetches + ABU duals + Shocklands. My manabase eschews cards like Command Tower & Rainbow Lands for every fetchable land (even ones not heavily played like Plateau).
However, I'd still posit that KotR is stronger than Valakut in most other builds as well. Valakut is worst than a come into play tapped Mountain (since you can't fetch it) unless it's winning the game. And that requires a setup of Prismatic Omen + Scapeshift/Splendid Reclamation. Even then, it's not a lock to kill anyone (40 life is 14 landfall triggers) much less take out multiple players. I just believe that unless something happened to your Maze's End, if you're going to Scapeshift that many lands, you're just going to go for that instead.
So if, you're using Valakut to kill players it will require recursion of Scapeshift (and I guess a huge amount of lands left in your deck) or Splendid Reclamation (after you find a way to fill your yard again). You could also set up a Manabond + Trade Routes engine to facilitate a Valakut win. A very beautiful and satisfying way to win if you can make it happen. And every single build that I've seen has a much easier time recurring a KotR (creature) rather than sorceries simply for the sake of Child itself.
I believe that KotR simply leads to more wins or winning situations because a tutor every single turn is just stronger than a card that's only there for winning (and difficult wins at that). Also, imagine a KotR after a Scapeshift or with Prismatic Omen. It's even better paired with those than Valakut.
I've updated my list over the last several months. Things of particular note:
Decklist by Card Type:
Land (43)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Azorius Guildgate
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boros Guildgate
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Breeding Pool
1x Canopy Vista
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Cinder Glade
1x Dark Depths
1x Dimir Guildgate
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Golgari Guildgate
1x Gruul Guildgate
1x High Market
1x Izzet Guildgate
1x Maze's End
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Orzhov Guildgate
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Petrified Field
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Savannah
1x Selesnya Guildgate
1x Simic Guildgate
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Stomping Ground
1x Strip Mine
1x Taiga
1x Temple Garden
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Tolaria West
1x Tropical Island
1x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Vesuva
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Bring to Light
1x Creeping Renaissance
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Genesis Wave
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Life from the Loam
1x Nature's Lore
1x Reap and Sow
1x Scapeshift
1x Splendid Reclamation
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Tempt with Discovery
1x The Great Aurora
1x Wargate
1x Amulet of Vigor
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Door to Nothingness
1x Expedition Map
1x Ghirapur Orrery
1x Horn of Greed
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Storm Cauldron
1x Zuran Orb
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Child of Alara
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gatecreeper Vine
1x Kederekt Leviathan
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Riftsweeper
1x Sun Titan
1x The Gitrog Monster
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Ulvenwald Hydra
1x Burgeoning
1x Exploration
1x Manabond
1x Necromancy
1x Prismatic Omen
1x Rites of Flourishing
1x Trade Routes
1x Constant Mists
1x Crop Rotation
1x Entomb
1x Intuition
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Realms Uncharted
1x Vampiric Tutor
WURG Thrasios, Triton Hero + Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder
UBR Inalla, Archmage Ritualist
You lose access to Ad Nauseam and The Gitrog Monster, two very valuable cards. In my estimation Blue isn't as necessary as having access to Black. Im not in love with the symmetrical effect.
WURG Thrasios, Triton Hero + Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder
UBR Inalla, Archmage Ritualist
I was thinking the same thing, but there are lots of tutors and ways other decks set up singleton combos. It may not be worth being in the 99, but I don't think it's not worth trying. It's a lot of draw power.
That's because you are not doing it right. With Omen on board and just six lands you can Scapeshift into Valakut, Vesuva, and any four lands for 36 direct damage!
Incidentally, more often than not I end up with at least one Gateland in exile.
Except that Valakut + Omen is crazy good removal. IMO you are criminally undervaluing Valakut! If you are already running Vesuva & Omen, Valakut does great work for a single card.
I've remembered that I'm meaning to add a Living Wish. This lets me run creatures and lands that are otherwise a bit too situational - and also just lets me run more fun cards that didn't make the cut. I'm sure KotR will always have a home in my deck once I'm up to 115! If I really like her, she can get promoted to MD.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats