Hi all... first time poster, and new Chainer, Dementia Master player. I have put together a list similar to the ones I have seen here and have a quick question (I am sure more questions to arrive soon).
What do you think about (or have you ever played) Vampire Hexmage? My playgroup utilizes a ton of Planeswalkers and/or creatures with +1/+1 counters and it seems that Chainer could use and abuse her ability quite nicely.
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Hi all... first time poster, and new Chainer, Dementia Master player. I have put together a list similar to the ones I have seen here and have a quick question (I am sure more questions to arrive soon).
What do you think about (or have you ever played) Vampire Hexmage? My playgroup utilizes a ton of Planeswalkers and/or creatures with +1/+1 counters and it seems that Chainer could use and abuse her ability quite nicely.
Glad to have another Chainerite on board
Chainer plays very much like a tool box deck that can be tweaked for an individual meta. If you see lots of walkers and +1 counters, then Vampire hexmage would seem like a great addition.
Hi all... first time poster, and new Chainer, Dementia Master player. I have put together a list similar to the ones I have seen here and have a quick question (I am sure more questions to arrive soon).
What do you think about (or have you ever played) Vampire Hexmage? My playgroup utilizes a ton of Planeswalkers and/or creatures with +1/+1 counters and it seems that Chainer could use and abuse her ability quite nicely.
I think that hexmage is definitely a viable meta choice. I will say, however, that if you're gonna play hexmage, then dark depths becomes a very viable. Especially with crucible of worlds.
I think that hexmage is definitely a viable meta choice. I will say, however, that if you're gonna play hexmage, then dark depths becomes a very viable. Especially with crucible of worlds.
I like your train-of-thought. My next Andrew Jackson will be ear-marked for Dark Depths.
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I need some help with my Chainer build. I've only played with the deck a few times so I don't know yet what should stay/leave. For now I'm mostly looking to improve its consistency. My meta is slivers, vorel counters and intet. There are a few cards I want to cut but I'll see if they match your suggestions
Wanted to make a suggestion to those with a lot of +1/+1 counter decks in their meta. Spike Cannibal. Amazingly good now that so many simic and green counters decks are popping up.
If your meta is slivers, Plague Sliver is a great beatdown sliver to make them pay for having out hordes.
The one time I played against slivers I remember [card]Altar of Dementia[card] doing a ton of work to mill them and then reanimate all their good slivers.
Spike Cannibal is a great counter hate card against vorel and other new decks popping up if you want another out than recurring Fleshbag Marauder.
From there you need
1) Tutors and Card Draw
2) Mana Doublers
3) Removal
4) Recursion/Utility
5) additional wincons
IMHO that in order of importance as well, but there are a lot of people that will argue with that order.
Tutors and card draw are pretty straight forward, just play all the best ones that you can afford. For draw, we like the draw x lose x cards and the dmg during upkeep types.
Outside of those memory jar and Disciple of Bolas are the most noteable.
You want creatures that you can recur for removal through chainer, and enough reset the board options to get rid of problem enchantments. You dont mind wrathing, as you can usually recover faster than anyone else can using your general and a mana doubler.
The usual recursion we use is Crucible of Worlds and Trading Post. Crucible lets us replay coffers and more importantly hit every land drop once we have a fetchland in the yard.
The deck is very mana hungry, hitting every land drop is important.
Trading Post works great with getting back artifacts with chainered' guys or bloodghast/reassembling skeleton. Every once in a while you'll discard a card for life, or pay life for a chump blocker, or sac your mana vault for a new card. Its definitely a late game card with a lot of utility.
You dont need sac outlets in chainer to get your worth, but most people agree on 2. Outside of altar, Dimir House Guard is my favorite. Other people like altar of dementia and Spawning Pit... notice none of them cost mana to activate.
Blood Artist and Falkenwrath Noble are probably the best examples of wincons. Early on they trade points of damage, and if you can get into some sort of loop they can add up pings very fast. Exsanguinate is a pretty default mono black wincon.
I used Liliana of the Dark Realms once to make chainer 21 p/t once... it doesnt happen often but its good to remember. Going aggrro with this deck doesnt usually make sense, unless you're steal a ton of fatties from people's yards.
Right now your deck looks like cabal coffers is the general, not chainer.
Its all big black mana beaters. Which is fine, but eventually you'll probably shift more combo or more midrange control.
Chainer is a card advantage engine waiting to be abused.
EDIT:
I updated my decklist.
Out of interest, i put the entire deck in my cart on TCGplayer, went to the cart optimizer and let it choose heavily played cards.
You can get the deck for $585.78, which for an edh deck is pretty well priced IMHO... and probably only b/c of all the fetches I play.
For the lazy people not wanting to click the link in my sig:
Some big changes (8 cards) this time around. The big idea is to get low. Lowering the mana cost as much as possible and adding in more draw! Noteable cuts are:
Decree of Pain I swear by this card, it may come back, but Im afraid of having too many high cc spells- Hopefully Mutilate can fill it's shoes.
Beseech the Queen i loved this with sickening shoal, but it hurts too much with dark confidant/tutelage. Replaced by diabolic intent.
Altar of Dementia and Phyrexian Tower, goodbye to sac outlets hello to more draw.
ADDED
BOB, dark tutelage, lose 2 draw 2. I might change them to the lose 4 draw 4, I need to feel out the deck with bob first.
Withering Boon but we'e mono black! we have creature kill up the wazoo!!! This is an out to stuff like sigarda, uril, azusa, and early game commanders that we need a couple turns against. Generally, trading a card in your deck is pure card disadvantage- but them needing to get the 2 extra mana gives us enough tempo often times to catch up. Also, with wizards printing more and more ETB guys, there are some creatures we just cant let hit the battlefield.
We went from having 7 draw effects to 12. AVG CMC is 3.27
Wow terrific post Throst. It will take some time to study all your suggestions and our decklist. Cost is not so much of an issue for me because I plan on building this incrementaly overtime.
One question though. Do you have enough lifegain in there to counteract all the "pain" effects?
If your meta is slivers, Plague Sliver is a great beatdown sliver to make them pay for having out hordes.
The one time I played against slivers I remember [card]Altar of Dementia[card] doing a ton of work to mill them and then reanimate all their good slivers.
Spike Cannibal is a great counter hate card against vorel and other new decks popping up if you want another out than recurring Fleshbag Marauder.
From there you need
1) Tutors and Card Draw
2) Mana Doublers
3) Removal
4) Recursion/Utility
5) additional wincons
IMHO that in order of importance as well, but there are a lot of people that will argue with that order.
Tutors and card draw are pretty straight forward, just play all the best ones that you can afford. For draw, we like the draw x lose x cards and the dmg during upkeep types.
Outside of those memory jar and Disciple of Bolas are the most noteable.
You want creatures that you can recur for removal through chainer, and enough reset the board options to get rid of problem enchantments. You dont mind wrathing, as you can usually recover faster than anyone else can using your general and a mana doubler.
The usual recursion we use is Crucible of Worlds and Trading Post. Crucible lets us replay coffers and more importantly hit every land drop once we have a fetchland in the yard.
The deck is very mana hungry, hitting every land drop is important.
Trading Post works great with getting back artifacts with chainered' guys or bloodghast/reassembling skeleton. Every once in a while you'll discard a card for life, or pay life for a chump blocker, or sac your mana vault for a new card. Its definitely a late game card with a lot of utility.
You dont need sac outlets in chainer to get your worth, but most people agree on 2. Outside of altar, Dimir House Guard is my favorite. Other people like altar of dementia and Spawning Pit... notice none of them cost mana to activate.
Blood Artist and Falkenwrath Noble are probably the best examples of wincons. Early on they trade points of damage, and if you can get into some sort of loop they can add up pings very fast. Exsanguinate is a pretty default mono black wincon.
I used Liliana of the Dark Realms once to make chainer 21 p/t once... it doesnt happen often but its good to remember. Going aggrro with this deck doesnt usually make sense, unless you're steal a ton of fatties from people's yards.
Right now your deck looks like cabal coffers is the general, not chainer.
Its all big black mana beaters. Which is fine, but eventually you'll probably shift more combo or more midrange control.
Chainer is a card advantage engine waiting to be abused.
EDIT:
I updated my decklist.
Out of interest, i put the entire deck in my cart on TCGplayer, went to the cart optimizer and let it choose heavily played cards.
You can get the deck for $585.78, which for an edh deck is pretty well priced IMHO... and probably only b/c of all the fetches I play.
For the lazy people not wanting to click the link in my sig:
Some big changes (8 cards) this time around. The big idea is to get low. Lowering the mana cost as much as possible and adding in more draw! Noteable cuts are:
Decree of Pain I swear by this card, it may come back, but Im afraid of having too many high cc spells- Hopefully Mutilate can fill it's shoes.
Beseech the Queen i loved this with sickening shoal, but it hurts too much with dark confidant/tutelage. Replaced by diabolic intent.
Altar of Dementia and Phyrexian Tower, goodbye to sac outlets hello to more draw.
ADDED
BOB, dark tutelage, lose 2 draw 2. I might change them to the lose 4 draw 4, I need to feel out the deck with bob first.
Withering Boon but we'e mono black! we have creature kill up the wazoo!!! This is an out to stuff like sigarda, uril, azusa, and early game commanders that we need a couple turns against. Generally, trading a card in your deck is pure card disadvantage- but them needing to get the 2 extra mana gives us enough tempo often times to catch up. Also, with wizards printing more and more ETB guys, there are some creatures we just cant let hit the battlefield.
We went from having 7 draw effects to 12. AVG CMC is 3.27
What do you think needs changing? Id rather be able to pin down what are definite "staples" and make a collaborative guide to help people wanting to build their own chainer decks
With all the tutors, what is the first couple of pieces that we should look for? Obviously it depends on your starting hand and on what your opponents play. Personally I like to get around 6 mana generators then card drawing engines. Does that sound right?
On a side note, I picked up caged sun and all is dust as well as fleshbag marauder. I will continue updating the deck overtime.
Oh and one last thing. How do you like sadistic hypnotist as a sac outlet?
I usually try and assemble some sort of card advantage engine right away.
Assuming that your card draw is going to get you into one of your doublers or just another tutor.
Hitting all your land drops is definitely crucial. Early on I like to get lily otdr out or crucible of worlds w/ a fetch. Crucible with fetch is so good i might even advocate running the mirage fetchs/ terramorphic expanse as a more budget version.
The more chainer activations you can chain together at once is often the difference between losing and winning.
Sadistic Hippy isnt bad, hes just not instant speed. Often times you want to be able to sac them at instant speed to dodge removal.
If you run a lot of token producers he's a great way to have consistent hand control, and even better with gravepact out too
**EDIT**
Lately when I tutor early game Im trying to anticipate how the game is going to go. If there is someone with a lot of control ill get out blood scrivener and mindslicer asap with a sac outlet. then either during the EOT of the turn before me ill sac slicer OR during the draw step of the most threatening player after they have drawn ill sac the slicer.
You can tutor for dimir house guard which will tutor for slicer, then cast chainer to get back DHG for your sac outlet.
Another way to create huge card advantage with chainer is to use your tutor to find Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Then use XHD to get the tutor back, you chainer to get XHD back, and then youre tutoring for w/e you want every turn.
What do you think needs changing? Id rather be able to pin down what are definite "staples" and make a collaborative guide to help people wanting to build their own chainer decks
Well, at this point I just don't know anymore. I am nearly resigned to accepting that mono black simply cannot compete with UGx ramp/walk decks. We just aren't fast enough. I just got done playing a weekend of EDH in a ridiculously competitive meta, and most games went something along the lines of: t2 Edric/Thada, t3 Knowledge Exploitation into Time Stretch. GG. Or t4 Maelstrom Wanderer into God only knows what (although it was fun when it was MY Maelstrom Wanderer deck :P). Or t3/4 Zur attacks into Solitary Confinement.
Black was just insanely underpowered. The only game that looked like it might have a chance, I got my Caged Sun Mana Drained into Time Stretch. We just don't have a strategy to beat the Time Walk players. They ramp better, they have blue, they walk through time. Even mono blue Thada decks easily outramp us by stealing everyone's Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. We are too easily disrupted by Strip Mine/Wasteland. Even if we hit discard, something like Maelstrom Wanderer/Bribery into Diluvian Primordial for double Time Walk happens. I tried probably 6 in a row with Chainer before accepting that I needed to bust out my UGx decks.
I guess my point is that Chainer is a fun deck, but cannot compete with tier 1 decks. So my advice is to build it however you think it is fun, not however you think is best to beat the top decks. My advice has always come from the standpoint of making the deck as competitive as possible. Since I no longer think it's possible, I don't think my advice is all that relevant.
I guess my point is that Chainer is a fun deck, but cannot compete with tier 1 decks. So my advice is to build it however you think it is fun, not however you think is best to beat the top decks. My advice has always come from the standpoint of making the deck as competitive as possible. Since I no longer think it's possible, I don't think my advice is all that relevant.
Currently, this is how my Chainer EDH deck is built - for fun. I have been running Chainer for about 2 months now and it is one of my favorites to play. Not built for competitive play, although it is definitely not a slouch and has had it's dominant moments at the kitchen table.
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Currently, this is how my Chainer EDH deck is built - for fun. I have been running Chainer for about 2 months now and it is one of my favorites to play. Not built for competitive play, although it is definitely not a slouch and has had it's dominant moments at the kitchen table.
That's good. I still love this darn deck, it's one of my favorites, and it's always been one of my pet projects. I probably shouldn't sound so dour about it, but I just spent sooo much effort trying to make it tier 1 or at least 1.5. It is still a very good deck as long as you aren't stuck in a crazy tier 1 meta, it just seems that no matter how fast I make it, it's still a cut below those damnable timewalk decks. A number of people have commented that the deck changes I have made (in relation to OP) have made the deck powerful, but less fun, so given that I have seemingly failed my goal to power it into a hyper-competitive meta, I simply don't think people, especially those newer to Chainer, should worry about my advice.
Have fun with the deck, smash some face, reanimate your friends stuff and make them cry
That's good. I still love this darn deck, it's one of my favorites, and it's always been one of my pet projects. I probably shouldn't sound so dour about it, but I just spent sooo much effort trying to make it tier 1 or at least 1.5. It is still a very good deck as long as you aren't stuck in a crazy tier 1 meta, it just seems that no matter how fast I make it, it's still a cut below those damnable timewalk decks. A number of people have commented that the deck changes I have made (in relation to OP) have made the deck powerful, but less fun, so given that I have seemingly failed my goal to power it into a hyper-competitive meta, I simply don't think people, especially those newer to Chainer, should worry about my advice.
Have fun with the deck, smash some face, reanimate your friends stuff and make them cry
Have you tried Necrotic Ooze combo or Mike and Trike? They are faster than going infinite with extra turn effects. So much so that I cut out a lot of my extra turn effects to put in more hate against them
Have you tried Necrotic Ooze combo or Mike and Trike? They are faster than going infinite with extra turn effects. So much so that I cut out a lot of my extra turn effects to put in more hate against them
Hmmm... I run Necrotic Ooze... what is the combo with him?
I think a lot of folks do not utilize the Mike & Trike combo in Chainer due to Dark Mike returning stolen creatures to their opponent with a +1/+1 counter on it. IMO, this could be played around if you are very careful, but I am one of those that, currently, do not run this combo.
Another combo I was curious about for Chainer is the Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond combo. Has anyone ran this one in their Chainer build?
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Hmmm... I run Necrotic Ooze... what is the combo with him?
I think a lot of folks do not utilize the Mike & Trike combo in Chainer due to Dark Mike returning stolen creatures to their opponent with a +1/+1 counter on it. IMO, this could be played around if you are very careful, but I am one of those that, currently, do not run this combo.
Another combo I was curious about for Chainer is the Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond combo. Has anyone ran this one in their Chainer build?
Necrotic Ooze combos with Triskelion and Phyrexian Devourer. It gets there really quick with Buried Alive, and a reanimation effect. Giving opponents creatures back is not desirable but if you can finish the table off it becomes irrelevant
Have you tried Necrotic Ooze combo or Mike and Trike? They are faster than going infinite with extra turn effects. So much so that I cut out a lot of my extra turn effects to put in more hate against them
I am regularly facing turn 3-4 Time Stretch. Not sure how to reliably Mike/Trike faster than that.
I am regularly facing turn 3-4 Time Stretch. Not sure how to reliably Mike/Trike faster than that.
There's a few ways to cheat Time Stretch out that quickly but none I know of which can do so consistently. But regardless, if they don't combo out and it comes back to you, you have a chance running combo to make up the difference in resources generated. Other options you have are cutting value cards and adding in more hand disruption
There's a few ways to cheat Time Stretch out that quickly but none I know of which can do so consistently. But regardless, if they don't combo out and it comes back to you, you have a chance running combo to make up the difference in resources generated. Other options you have are cutting value cards and adding in more hand disruption
It just never comes back around. And I genuinely do run a reasonable amount of hand disruption. But do I target Edric (doesn't matter too much), Thada (probably hurts a little more), or Maelstrom Wanderer (doesn't care if he has a hand)? Or Zur if he's on the table... it's just not a good meta for mono black. And the problem with the discard is that even if I strip the knowledge Exploitation or Time Walk spell, someone else comes by and casts it from their graveyard. If only mono black had access to blue
It just never comes back around. And I genuinely do run a reasonable amount of hand disruption. But do I target Edric (doesn't matter too much), Thada (probably hurts a little more), or Maelstrom Wanderer (doesn't care if he has a hand)? Or Zur if he's on the table... it's just not a good meta for mono black. And the problem with the discard is that even if I strip the knowledge Exploitation or Time Walk spell, someone else comes by and casts it from their graveyard. If only mono black had access to blue
Kinda skeptical about those other players being able to go infinite that quick. 3 pieces are required. Anyways in your shoes I'd rip up your current list and rebuild around Necrotic Ooze combo. All those big mana cards you're running are pointless if you're losing turn 3-4. BUG is probably the strongest color combination but monoblack can still be competitive. There's a Sheoldred player in my meta who takes more than his fair share of games despite going up against what I think are pretty good Zur, Mimeo, and Rafiq/Azusa lists
What do you think about (or have you ever played) Vampire Hexmage? My playgroup utilizes a ton of Planeswalkers and/or creatures with +1/+1 counters and it seems that Chainer could use and abuse her ability quite nicely.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Glad to have another Chainerite on board
Chainer plays very much like a tool box deck that can be tweaked for an individual meta. If you see lots of walkers and +1 counters, then Vampire hexmage would seem like a great addition.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I think that hexmage is definitely a viable meta choice. I will say, however, that if you're gonna play hexmage, then dark depths becomes a very viable. Especially with crucible of worlds.
I like your train-of-thought. My next Andrew Jackson will be ear-marked for Dark Depths.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
I need some help with my Chainer build. I've only played with the deck a few times so I don't know yet what should stay/leave. For now I'm mostly looking to improve its consistency. My meta is slivers, vorel counters and intet. There are a few cards I want to cut but I'll see if they match your suggestions
1 Hex Parasite
1 Bloodghast
1 Disciple of Griselbrand
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Crypt Rats
1 Dark Impostor
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Khabal Ghoul
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Sangromancer
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Ogre Slumlord
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Midnight Banshee
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Triskelion
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Expedition Map
1 Reanimate
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Exsanguinate
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Profane Command
1 Sign in Blood
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Mimic Vat
1 Murder
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Victimize
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Damnation
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Grave Pact
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Mutilate
1 No Mercy
1 Syphon Mind
1 Brainspoil
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Painful Quandary
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Hex
1 Grave Betrayal
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Deserted Temple
1 Maze of Ith
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
33 Swamp
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Thespian's Stage
Wanted to make a suggestion to those with a lot of +1/+1 counter decks in their meta. Spike Cannibal. Amazingly good now that so many simic and green counters decks are popping up.
If your meta is slivers, Plague Sliver is a great beatdown sliver to make them pay for having out hordes.
The one time I played against slivers I remember [card]Altar of Dementia[card] doing a ton of work to mill them and then reanimate all their good slivers.
Spike Cannibal is a great counter hate card against vorel and other new decks popping up if you want another out than recurring Fleshbag Marauder.
To me, chainer's core is this:
From there you need
1) Tutors and Card Draw
2) Mana Doublers
3) Removal
4) Recursion/Utility
5) additional wincons
IMHO that in order of importance as well, but there are a lot of people that will argue with that order.
Tutors and card draw are pretty straight forward, just play all the best ones that you can afford. For draw, we like the draw x lose x cards and the dmg during upkeep types.
Outside of those memory jar and Disciple of Bolas are the most noteable.
cabal coffers, Crypt Ghast, Nirkvana Revenant, and caged sun are the essential. If you dont see a lot of artifact hate you can run extraplanar lens, and if you dont see a lot of black you can run Gauntlet of Power.
My preferred removal suite is as follows
You want creatures that you can recur for removal through chainer, and enough reset the board options to get rid of problem enchantments. You dont mind wrathing, as you can usually recover faster than anyone else can using your general and a mana doubler.
The usual recursion we use is Crucible of Worlds and Trading Post. Crucible lets us replay coffers and more importantly hit every land drop once we have a fetchland in the yard.
The deck is very mana hungry, hitting every land drop is important.
Trading Post works great with getting back artifacts with chainered' guys or bloodghast/reassembling skeleton. Every once in a while you'll discard a card for life, or pay life for a chump blocker, or sac your mana vault for a new card. Its definitely a late game card with a lot of utility.
You dont need sac outlets in chainer to get your worth, but most people agree on 2. Outside of altar, Dimir House Guard is my favorite. Other people like altar of dementia and Spawning Pit... notice none of them cost mana to activate.
Blood Artist and Falkenwrath Noble are probably the best examples of wincons. Early on they trade points of damage, and if you can get into some sort of loop they can add up pings very fast. Exsanguinate is a pretty default mono black wincon.
I used Liliana of the Dark Realms once to make chainer 21 p/t once... it doesnt happen often but its good to remember. Going aggrro with this deck doesnt usually make sense, unless you're steal a ton of fatties from people's yards.
Right now your deck looks like cabal coffers is the general, not chainer.
Its all big black mana beaters. Which is fine, but eventually you'll probably shift more combo or more midrange control.
Chainer is a card advantage engine waiting to be abused.
EDIT:
I updated my decklist.
Out of interest, i put the entire deck in my cart on TCGplayer, went to the cart optimizer and let it choose heavily played cards.
You can get the deck for $585.78, which for an edh deck is pretty well priced IMHO... and probably only b/c of all the fetches I play.
For the lazy people not wanting to click the link in my sig:
Some big changes (8 cards) this time around. The big idea is to get low. Lowering the mana cost as much as possible and adding in more draw! Noteable cuts are:
Decree of Pain I swear by this card, it may come back, but Im afraid of having too many high cc spells- Hopefully Mutilate can fill it's shoes.
Beseech the Queen i loved this with sickening shoal, but it hurts too much with dark confidant/tutelage. Replaced by diabolic intent.
Altar of Dementia and Phyrexian Tower, goodbye to sac outlets hello to more draw.
ADDED
BOB, dark tutelage, lose 2 draw 2. I might change them to the lose 4 draw 4, I need to feel out the deck with bob first.
Withering Boon but we'e mono black! we have creature kill up the wazoo!!! This is an out to stuff like sigarda, uril, azusa, and early game commanders that we need a couple turns against. Generally, trading a card in your deck is pure card disadvantage- but them needing to get the 2 extra mana gives us enough tempo often times to catch up. Also, with wizards printing more and more ETB guys, there are some creatures we just cant let hit the battlefield.
We went from having 7 draw effects to 12. AVG CMC is 3.27
1 Mana Crypt
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Terrain Generator
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
25 Swamp
//1cc (10)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Codex Shredder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
//2cc (13)
1 Exsanguinate
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Withering Boon
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sign in Blood
1 Dark Confidant
1 Blood Scrivener
1 Mind Stone
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Blood Artist
1 Bloodghast
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dismember
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Infernal Tribute
1 Necropotence
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Dark Tutelage
//4cc (14)
1 Mutilate
1 Trading Post
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Strands of Night
1 Damnation
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Mindslicer
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Sangromancer
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
5 Living Death
5 Memory Jar
5 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
//6cc 6
1 Duplicant
1 Salvaging Station
1 Caged Sun
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Massacre Wurm
//7cc 4
1 All is Dust
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Karn Liberated
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
One question though. Do you have enough lifegain in there to counteract all the "pain" effects?
Thats all the lifegain I run.
Its usually enough, Sangromancer with memory jar and/or mindslicer usually gains you a ridiculous amount of life.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Very good post. We don't agree on every individual card choice, but that is a very nice mini-spoiler.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
With all the tutors, what is the first couple of pieces that we should look for? Obviously it depends on your starting hand and on what your opponents play. Personally I like to get around 6 mana generators then card drawing engines. Does that sound right?
On a side note, I picked up caged sun and all is dust as well as fleshbag marauder. I will continue updating the deck overtime.
Oh and one last thing. How do you like sadistic hypnotist as a sac outlet?
Assuming that your card draw is going to get you into one of your doublers or just another tutor.
Hitting all your land drops is definitely crucial. Early on I like to get lily otdr out or crucible of worlds w/ a fetch. Crucible with fetch is so good i might even advocate running the mirage fetchs/ terramorphic expanse as a more budget version.
The more chainer activations you can chain together at once is often the difference between losing and winning.
Sadistic Hippy isnt bad, hes just not instant speed. Often times you want to be able to sac them at instant speed to dodge removal.
If you run a lot of token producers he's a great way to have consistent hand control, and even better with gravepact out too
**EDIT**
Lately when I tutor early game Im trying to anticipate how the game is going to go. If there is someone with a lot of control ill get out blood scrivener and mindslicer asap with a sac outlet. then either during the EOT of the turn before me ill sac slicer OR during the draw step of the most threatening player after they have drawn ill sac the slicer.
You can tutor for dimir house guard which will tutor for slicer, then cast chainer to get back DHG for your sac outlet.
Another way to create huge card advantage with chainer is to use your tutor to find Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Then use XHD to get the tutor back, you chainer to get XHD back, and then youre tutoring for w/e you want every turn.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Well, at this point I just don't know anymore. I am nearly resigned to accepting that mono black simply cannot compete with UGx ramp/walk decks. We just aren't fast enough. I just got done playing a weekend of EDH in a ridiculously competitive meta, and most games went something along the lines of: t2 Edric/Thada, t3 Knowledge Exploitation into Time Stretch. GG. Or t4 Maelstrom Wanderer into God only knows what (although it was fun when it was MY Maelstrom Wanderer deck :P). Or t3/4 Zur attacks into Solitary Confinement.
Black was just insanely underpowered. The only game that looked like it might have a chance, I got my Caged Sun Mana Drained into Time Stretch. We just don't have a strategy to beat the Time Walk players. They ramp better, they have blue, they walk through time. Even mono blue Thada decks easily outramp us by stealing everyone's Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. We are too easily disrupted by Strip Mine/Wasteland. Even if we hit discard, something like Maelstrom Wanderer/Bribery into Diluvian Primordial for double Time Walk happens. I tried probably 6 in a row with Chainer before accepting that I needed to bust out my UGx decks.
I guess my point is that Chainer is a fun deck, but cannot compete with tier 1 decks. So my advice is to build it however you think it is fun, not however you think is best to beat the top decks. My advice has always come from the standpoint of making the deck as competitive as possible. Since I no longer think it's possible, I don't think my advice is all that relevant.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Currently, this is how my Chainer EDH deck is built - for fun. I have been running Chainer for about 2 months now and it is one of my favorites to play. Not built for competitive play, although it is definitely not a slouch and has had it's dominant moments at the kitchen table.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
That's good. I still love this darn deck, it's one of my favorites, and it's always been one of my pet projects. I probably shouldn't sound so dour about it, but I just spent sooo much effort trying to make it tier 1 or at least 1.5. It is still a very good deck as long as you aren't stuck in a crazy tier 1 meta, it just seems that no matter how fast I make it, it's still a cut below those damnable timewalk decks. A number of people have commented that the deck changes I have made (in relation to OP) have made the deck powerful, but less fun, so given that I have seemingly failed my goal to power it into a hyper-competitive meta, I simply don't think people, especially those newer to Chainer, should worry about my advice.
Have fun with the deck, smash some face, reanimate your friends stuff and make them cry
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
(~~Takes Torch passed from MrCoupon~~) Will do. Long Live Chainer!
:D:rofl: (~~laughing at my own comments~~)
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Have you tried Necrotic Ooze combo or Mike and Trike? They are faster than going infinite with extra turn effects. So much so that I cut out a lot of my extra turn effects to put in more hate against them
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Hmmm... I run Necrotic Ooze... what is the combo with him?
I think a lot of folks do not utilize the Mike & Trike combo in Chainer due to Dark Mike returning stolen creatures to their opponent with a +1/+1 counter on it. IMO, this could be played around if you are very careful, but I am one of those that, currently, do not run this combo.
Another combo I was curious about for Chainer is the Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond combo. Has anyone ran this one in their Chainer build?
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Necrotic Ooze combos with Triskelion and Phyrexian Devourer. It gets there really quick with Buried Alive, and a reanimation effect. Giving opponents creatures back is not desirable but if you can finish the table off it becomes irrelevant
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I am regularly facing turn 3-4 Time Stretch. Not sure how to reliably Mike/Trike faster than that.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
There's a few ways to cheat Time Stretch out that quickly but none I know of which can do so consistently. But regardless, if they don't combo out and it comes back to you, you have a chance running combo to make up the difference in resources generated. Other options you have are cutting value cards and adding in more hand disruption
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
It just never comes back around. And I genuinely do run a reasonable amount of hand disruption. But do I target Edric (doesn't matter too much), Thada (probably hurts a little more), or Maelstrom Wanderer (doesn't care if he has a hand)? Or Zur if he's on the table... it's just not a good meta for mono black. And the problem with the discard is that even if I strip the knowledge Exploitation or Time Walk spell, someone else comes by and casts it from their graveyard. If only mono black had access to blue
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Kinda skeptical about those other players being able to go infinite that quick. 3 pieces are required. Anyways in your shoes I'd rip up your current list and rebuild around Necrotic Ooze combo. All those big mana cards you're running are pointless if you're losing turn 3-4. BUG is probably the strongest color combination but monoblack can still be competitive. There's a Sheoldred player in my meta who takes more than his fair share of games despite going up against what I think are pretty good Zur, Mimeo, and Rafiq/Azusa lists
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL