What do you guys think of replacing one forest with a Dryad Arbor? With Loam and Survival, it allows for repeated creature tutoring and upgrades Survival from card quality to card advantage, similar to what RG decks can do with Squee. The overall impact to the deck; having one land that can die and comes into play essentially tapped, may not be that bad for the comparative gains.
Great primer, very entertaining read. I'd just like to point out that the Reveillark combo requires a sac outlet that costs no mana and can be used an arbitrary number of times in a turn (so it can't tap like High Market). Since your list does not contain one Saffi is a perfectly safe card to add as long as you don't add in the aforementioned sac outlet. Even now if you had a free sac outlet you could loop Acidic Slime repeatedly using Karmic Guide and Reveillark. Saffi simply allows you to loop cards with more than 2 power.
EDIT: And while it's a great card Greater Good allows you to combo off with your current set up since you can just stack all the draw triggers.
If you intend on using True Believer, may you consider using Spirit of the Hearth instead? Although it's possible that Leyline of Sanctity might survive better as more people have more creature sweepers than enchantment removal.
Also, since you like Life from the Loam, why not try Scapeshift. Can fix your colors for you or pull the remaining lands in your deck out (which improves your draws).
Thanks for all the help guys. I'm sorry I haven't been active here lately. I've been packing/getting ready to begin the trek back to the land of ice and snow for another semester of higher education (which means a lot more testing of this deck, as well my others). But enough with the excuses, time to give you guys what you're here for: some responses!
Dscherli, I agree with you (and the posters above you) that the deck might need some more sac outlets, but I think I disagree with your choices. There just isn't enough stuff in here that costs four to make Dimir House Guard worth it to me, which is a shame, since I love tutors. One of the most important facets of the deck is its ramp, and I rarely need mana, so Phyrexian Altar isn't that necessary. Undead Gladiator isn't really a sac outlet, but is a cool choice in general. I'd appreciate it if you would read the list prior to commenting, since I clearly state I don't like combos like Saffi/Llark/Guide. I also disagree with you about needing "big dumb beaters" in a deck like this. Plenty of my creatures are big enough to swing home, but they all do something in addition. I'd love to see your list though, and to know how it plays out for you.
Disruptive, I know how Birthing Pod works. I don't need a diagram to understand it, and more importantly, your chain takes five turns to complete, which gives people plenty of time to interrupt it. Also, in five turns, I could play other things that generate just as much card advantage or ramp me just as far. As for the comments on the next page, I like True Believer better for its easy recurability, and Scapeshift and Life From the Loam have nothing to do with each other, at least the way I use them.
Gilrad, my only issue is that if I ever end up discarding an Eldrazi Titan when I don't want to, it hoses my entire gameplan, which causes some problems. I do like the idea of using Entomb as a silver bullet against grave hate, but the potential losses outweigh the gains, at least in my opinion. Also, welcome to the thread!
Talanos, I would definitely place Primeval Titan in Garruk's spot, every time. As for Vish Kal, I just worry about how hard he could be to utilize and protect over multiple turns. If it works for you though, by all means rock 'im. I think Stonecloaker is probably a better piece of pinpoint grave hate. One shot, but he can sneak in when no one is looking. The idea of using a Dryad Arbor is an intriguing one, and my only concern is drawing it early and having really slow starts with it, and that sweepers now hit your lands. Still, could be good.
Donald, I've read your threads on just about all of your generals multiple times, and I must say it's an honor to welcome you to my thread. To receive praise from you is pretty exciting, and I'm glad you enjoyed reading the primer. Thank you for the point on Saffi Eriksdotter, but I planned on putting Greater Good in here eventually, so maybe she'll still sit out. That said, what do you mean I can combo off with GG in my current set up by stacking the triggers?
Thank you all for the help, and I will hopefully be a little more active here soon.
For a tutor, have you considered Citanul Flute. I'm currently running this in my Karador deck (which I hope to start putting up on here soon). I've found that, despite that it's pricey to use, really gets the job done. I'm not too much of an aggressive player so I like to be able to keep my mana open and tutor for whatever I want (even more tutors, like fierce empath lol), whenever I want.
Also, I absolutely love Lurking Predators. In a game last night, I was able to cheat in 7 or so creatures before it got back to my turn. Not sure if it's quite what you need though, just a suggestion.
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All Generals I've attempted in EDH:
Rith, Rhys, Ghave, Karador, Oona, Wrexial, Uril, Animar, Damia, Mimeoplasm
Scapeshift puts lands into your graveyard; it's sort of like a super-duper Harrow. Life from the Loam gets those lands back from your graveyard. Also Scapeshift will likely cause threshold (along with all your sacrificing creatures).
Then, with threshold, some of these cards might be good:
Donald, I've read your threads on just about all of your generals multiple times, and I must say it's an honor to welcome you to my thread. To receive praise from you is pretty exciting, and I'm glad you enjoyed reading the primer. Thank you for the point on Saffi Eriksdotter, but I planned on putting Greater Good in here eventually, so maybe she'll still sit out. That said, what do you mean I can combo off with GG in my current set up by stacking the triggers?
Thanks a lot for the kind words. It's a really nice primer you got there, very informative and I got some good laughs too.
Actually with Greater Good and no Eldrazi you fine, I was thinking it would be like how Greater Gargadon can sac and arbitrary number of things then resolve all the triggers. You can still do that with Greater Good but I forgot the important detail of Greater Good actually killing you once you let all the triggers resolve since the combo doesn't win on the spot. So Saffi and GG are both fine. You can still make some strong plays with it but nothing too crazy I think. My bad, was getting a little late in the day.:p
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Talanos, I would definitely place Primeval Titan in Garruk's spot, every time. As for Vish Kal, I just worry about how hard he could be to utilize and protect over multiple turns. If it works for you though, by all means rock 'im. I think Stonecloaker is probably a better piece of pinpoint grave hate. One shot, but he can sneak in when no one is looking. The idea of using a Dryad Arbor is an intriguing one, and my only concern is drawing it early and having really slow starts with it, and that sweepers now hit your lands. Still, could be good.
My issue with Stonecloaker is that I'm mostly concerned about recursion that doesn't target. Animate Dead, etc., aren't as common as, say, Will or Mimeoplasm. And even when you are dealing with pinpoint recursion, you need to have 3 mana open. I haven't tested it yet, but it seems clunky. Anyone have any personal experience with it?
Also, has anyone tested Riftsweeper? It seems like a useful option in theory, but at the same time, I can usually handle a couple things being removed from game. I worry that it's too slow to be that effective and sometimes a dead draw, although I can recall occasions where if I had one in the deck I would have gone and searched it up.
Yes, but it kills hands as well, eliminating nearly all answers.
I see your point. I guess I like hanging on to my answers as well. But given that we can recur our creatures at least, I can see why you'd do this. I tend to not like going all in on my graveyard and relying on Karador, as it opens me up to GY hate. But I suppose if you make them discard their hate, then they can't hurt you as much.
Also, has anyone tested Riftsweeper? It seems like a useful option in theory, but at the same time, I can usually handle a couple things being removed from game.
I'm running it in my build. I don't cast it often, but when I do, I'm usually very happy to do so. It's very satisfying to reclaim a problem creature my opponents thought was finally gone after they exiled it, to start the pain again. It's also a corner case tool against certain commanders/strategies, but that's not really enough to recommend it if you're not already running it, I don't think.
My issue with Stonecloaker is that I'm mostly concerned about recursion that doesn't target. Animate Dead, etc., aren't as common as, say, Will or Mimeoplasm. And even [when] you are dealing with pinpoint recursion, you need to have 3 mana open. I haven't tested it yet, but it seems clunky. Anyone have any personal experience with it?
It is really, really good in the mirror. Against Mimeoplasm, you need to either race, pulling creatures out of your graveyard faster than he can exile them, or attempt to exile the creatures in his graveyard. The important creatures to exile/recur are the ones that have abilities that you can't deal with such as indestructibility.
Otherwise, Stonecloaker is a really good spell. Most spells and effects that deal with the graveyard only let players deal with their own graveyard. Stonecloaker gives you options in how you want to mess that up and can be done at instant speed over and over again. Additionally, you'll likely never tap out turn after turn and you might even run out of things to do. Stonecloaker lets you destroy graveyards with your extra mana, even when it's not necessary.
Most of the time, you'll use its 'drawback' to return itself to your hand so you can do it over and over again. However, you can also use it to return another one of your creatures to your hand. This is really good for cards with ETB abilities. Stonecloaker can then do some damage or chump block and Karador can bring him back from your graveyard.
Quote from Talanos »
Also, has anyone tested Riftsweeper? It seems like a useful option in theory, but at the same time, I can usually handle a couple things being removed from game. I worry that it's too slow to be that effective and sometimes a dead draw, although I can recall occasions where if I had one in the deck I would have gone and searched it up.
It's actually really bad. Being in exile is not much different than being in your library and not being drawn. It's difficult to pull a specific card out of your library without wasting another card to do so and that's a wasteful use of your resources in a multiplayer environment. If you wanted to get a card back from exile, you'd want it to go straight to the battlefield or your hand. Since there are no cards that do exactly that (that I know of), the next best option is to put it in your graveyard with Pull From Eternity. If combined with Eternal Witness or Regrowth and targeting Restock or Praetor's Grasp, you can slowly get everything back from exile and put it into your graveyard. It costs a bit of mana, but at the same time, you still have the option to get a creature back from exile too.
EDIT: Just realized you can use Riftsweeper offensively too. It's still worse than Pull from Eternity other than the fact that it's recurable with Karador.
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Has anybody had any experience using Sisters of Stone Death. Seems like an awesome card if you have the mana.
It is really, really good in the mirror. Against Mimeoplasm, you need to either race, pulling creatures out of your graveyard faster than he can exile them, or attempt to exile the creatures in his graveyard. The important creatures to exile/recur are the ones that have abilities that you can't deal with such as indestructibility.
I can see what you're saying. You're right that generally you don't need to get rid of someone's entire GY, and focusing on the most dangerous targets first can still yield good results.
I also like your point that you can just use leftover mana, instead of having to actively deploy a GY hate card ahead of time. Withered Wretch has been very effective for me, but people focus on getting rid of it if they can. Stonecloaker is much harder to deal with. I also like the idea of randomly being able to use it to redeploy an ETB creature if you don't have a sac outlet.
Speaking of sac outlets, sometimes I wish I had more. I wonder if the mana base could support a Miren, Moaning Well. What land would you cut?
It's actually really bad. Being in exile is not much different than being in your library and not being drawn. It's difficult to pull a specific card out of your library without wasting another card to do so and that's a wasteful use of your resources in a multiplayer environment.
If you wanted to get a card back from exile, you'd want it to go straight to the battlefield or your hand. Since there are no cards that do exactly that (that I know of), the next best option is to put it in your graveyard with Pull From Eternity.
I like that he's a creature so that I can pitch him to survival or just let him chump and increase Karador's discount if I don't need to recover anything in exile. There's actually quite a few ways to pull a good creature back from the deck. But I do agree that you're making a tradeoff. I guess both options seem meh. I'll guess I'll wait until I lose a game on account of exile before I bite either bullet. So far I've had over a third of my creatures exiled and still managed to find enough redundant win conditions to pull out a victory. Exiled Revelark sure does make me a sad panda though.
Has anybody had any experience using Sisters of Stone Death. Seems like an awesome card if you have the mana.
I have one, and thought the same thing: that it is expensive. At the point where I'm casting a spell of that cost, I've looked to things like Knell, Novablast, Avenger, or Shelodred. (I don't have a Tooth and Nail yet, sadly)
The other problem I have it Sisters is that she doesn't do any good if you are being threatened by a flyer (without vigilance), which seems to be a reasonably common type of threat.
I recently started working on a Karador deck and currently it's running mostly a big reanimator theme, but I'm working on adding more utility little dudes to help fuel Karador.
Desert Twister: Never saw you reply about this card. Mono-G version of Vindicate that's cheaper on your wallet but more expensive on your mana base.
I personally love Desert Twister in my monogreen deck but I don't think it's worth a card slot when our general opens us up to hundreds of options in Black and White.
Mangara of Corondor: Although it's a creature which exiles itself rather than sacrifices and it can't use it's ability the turn it comes into play, it offers a Vindicate-like effect which gets around indestructibility by exiling the target. Might also give you a reason to replace Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Mortify or Putrefy if you want to play more creatures.
Viridian Zealot: Plays into your silly sub-theme of sacrificing all your creatures but whatever. Gets rid of an artifact/enchantment and can then be recurred as needed. He costs a buck or two though.
Capashen Unicorn: IT'S A FRACKIN' UNICORN! But it's also cheap. Does the same thing as Viridian Zealot but you have to wait a turn. This guy and Viridian Zealot play nicely with Sun Titan and Reveillark.
Sylvoc Replica: I don't know why I didnt' mention this guy earlier; he's been in my deck since before you even started this thread. Costs 3 to cast and G to blow up. Has a recursion combo with Glissa, The Traitor (who I hear is good at blocking).
I want to start off this post by apologizing to you all for not being active on here whatsoever for almost a month. I was getting ready to head back to college, and after finally getting settled, we got a massive flood. There is a ton of water up here, and suddenly I feel like I'm playing blue (I'm on an island... har har...). Thankfully, I stayed mostly dry, and nothing of mine was destroyed. Now that I am finally somewhat okay, I can hope to post. Here goes.
Dramaturtle, welcome to the thread. I really like Mindslicer actually, since we can usually reliably recur our threats much more quickly than other decks. This guy is going in for some heavy consideration for sure, since True Believer has been somewhat lakcluster so far. It needs more testing, but it might be the one to go. What would you cut for it?
Disruptive, I dislike Sisters of Stone Death simply because they are VERY mana intensive, for what I think is not a huge payoff. They are also hugely expensive right from the start, making it an even less appealing choice.
I agree with Disruptive on this one, ParadigmShift (and you, later in the post). I don't think Riftsweeper is really all that excellent, despite it's offensive and defensive applications. It did open my eyes to the former though, which is a cool idea.
ArtificerAndy, welcome to you as well. I agree completely with everything you've suggested. I'm also curious as to what utility guys you've added, so I'd like to see your list.
Thanks for being understanding guys. I really appreciate your patience, and all the help you've given. I still wanna improve this primer, so that'll be a big order of business soon. Keep the suggestions rolling!
IceBear, I also have been having lukewarm experiences with True Believer. In some ways, its hard to know how good it he since when he's out, people hold their grave hate and you don't always find out if they even had it or not, and thus, whether True Believer even did anything. Beyond that, I find that while he's good in theory, you have to wind up in a situation where you find and play him before the grave hate hits you. That doesn't really happen as often as you'd like.
On the topic of hate bears, though, I have been considering two others: Aven Mindcensor and Grand Abolisher. Anyone have any thoughts or experiences? I have not had a chance to test them out yet.
I recently changend from Ghave to Karador and this thread has given me lots of inspirations.
I have a few ideas myself. What do you think of them?
What do you think of Sunblast Angel? I like it very much in my list. It's a easily tutor- and recurable sweep that doesn't affect your side of the board at all. Sure it's a bit conditional but it very often keeps you from dying to repeated swings. Also you can flash it in with chord of calling after someone declared attackers
Also what about Aura Shards? We should have no problem playing a creature directly after casting it especially with Karador out, it has the potential of dealing with all troublesome artifacts and enchantments on the board without hitting your own and it is even recurable with sun Titan.
I'm also trying ashnods altar. It's a nice sac outlet and helps you doing some nice chains plus can help getting out huge threats pretty easy.
I also have a question: What do you usually search for with an early buried alive? I usually go for Fleshbag Marauder, Eternal Witness and Stonforge Mystic.
Has anyone tried Novablast Wurm? I run it and it has been pretty good to me. Bitter Ordeal helps strip grave hate from multiple peoples decks if you time it right after a board sweep. I use it to make other people play fair at my table so I don't get hated out.
First off, thanks icebear for the primer. You already saw that it helped me. I just wanted to suggest to everyone Necrotic Ooze. I purposely tailored my deck to have a few good activated abilities such as Order of Whiteclay to combo with Fauna Shaman in the yard for him. Things like this are just silly. Also you can pitch things like Magus of the Disk, which people here have said are slow, to speed them up and other fun things. Just something to think about.
Bitter Ordeal seems awesome against gravehate, I'm going to pick one up today!
Also I know that it was already mentioned in this thread, but I think nobody posted results about him: Has anyone any results with mindslicer? I think it could be great. If you play it and wrath afterwards it probably puts everyone but us into topdeck mode.
Only problems I have run into with Mindslicer is that my draw engines are pretty good so I usually have a pretty full hand that would get dumped and that puts too many threats in our grave and draws grave yard hate at us. Plus when ever I did draw him I seemed to over extend to get cards out of my hand. I think he would do better in a MBC with heavy discard elements. Though that is my ¢2.
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Brute force can sometimes knock down a locked door, But Knowledge is a skeleton key. ~Jace Beleren~
Volango, I agree that Sunblast Angel, while conditional, could be potentially really good. Might be worth playing over Magus of the Disk, but I could be wrong. Aura Shards could be really sweet, especially with something like Avenger of Zendikar. Lots of potential there. Ashnod's Altar doesn't seem overwhelmingly good, but it IS a sac outlet, at the least. Mindslicer is a double edged sword, but could be excellent. It does put everyone else into topdeck mode, while allowing us to continue unbothered. This is the card I most want to test.
Hughes, I haven't tried the Wurm, but Bitter Ordeal could be DEVASTATING against some decks, and at the least is a proactive means of dealing with their grave hate. Certainly worth testing out. Let me know if you have any success with it?
Iandowdy, I'm just glad I could help you out. Necrotic Ooze would be excellent if I ran a few more activated abilities; although, the idea of tapping Necrotic Ooze to activate the Magus of the Disk's ability, then sacrificing it as Dauntless Escort is REALLY appealing. Also, as a side note, Order of Whiteclay could be incredible.
Miguel, while I have made my opinions known on Birthing Pod, Minion Reflector is a REALLY strong addition. I have a ton of enter the battlefield effects, and this could make things even more ridiculous. Definitely worth a try.
Allow me to extend a welcome to all of you who have not been in here before, and I hope I can continue to be a resource to you guys. Keep those suggestions coming.
Bitter ordeal has been working pretty well since most of my playgroup doesn't run blue much. I do have concerns as to some one holding counters against it but I think that is ok since it means them making smaller moves to keep up counter magic. If counter magic becomes a problem I may just fall back on my mana web with urborg, tomb of yawgmoth combo to lock up their plays. Also to note is that I have played with Aura Shards and will not go anywhere without it if I play G/W. Sure it draws hate, but if you always cut a card because it draws hate you'll end up with a bunch crap cards. Aura Shards is too devestating to not run. Let your inner Timmy smile when you resolve Avenger of Zendikar or Hornet Queen while Aura Shards is out against a Sharum player.
EDIT: And while it's a great card Greater Good allows you to combo off with your current set up since you can just stack all the draw triggers.
Also, since you like Life from the Loam, why not try Scapeshift. Can fix your colors for you or pull the remaining lands in your deck out (which improves your draws).
Dscherli, I agree with you (and the posters above you) that the deck might need some more sac outlets, but I think I disagree with your choices. There just isn't enough stuff in here that costs four to make Dimir House Guard worth it to me, which is a shame, since I love tutors. One of the most important facets of the deck is its ramp, and I rarely need mana, so Phyrexian Altar isn't that necessary. Undead Gladiator isn't really a sac outlet, but is a cool choice in general. I'd appreciate it if you would read the list prior to commenting, since I clearly state I don't like combos like Saffi/Llark/Guide. I also disagree with you about needing "big dumb beaters" in a deck like this. Plenty of my creatures are big enough to swing home, but they all do something in addition. I'd love to see your list though, and to know how it plays out for you.
Disruptive, I know how Birthing Pod works. I don't need a diagram to understand it, and more importantly, your chain takes five turns to complete, which gives people plenty of time to interrupt it. Also, in five turns, I could play other things that generate just as much card advantage or ramp me just as far. As for the comments on the next page, I like True Believer better for its easy recurability, and Scapeshift and Life From the Loam have nothing to do with each other, at least the way I use them.
Gilrad, my only issue is that if I ever end up discarding an Eldrazi Titan when I don't want to, it hoses my entire gameplan, which causes some problems. I do like the idea of using Entomb as a silver bullet against grave hate, but the potential losses outweigh the gains, at least in my opinion. Also, welcome to the thread!
Talanos, I would definitely place Primeval Titan in Garruk's spot, every time. As for Vish Kal, I just worry about how hard he could be to utilize and protect over multiple turns. If it works for you though, by all means rock 'im. I think Stonecloaker is probably a better piece of pinpoint grave hate. One shot, but he can sneak in when no one is looking. The idea of using a Dryad Arbor is an intriguing one, and my only concern is drawing it early and having really slow starts with it, and that sweepers now hit your lands. Still, could be good.
Donald, I've read your threads on just about all of your generals multiple times, and I must say it's an honor to welcome you to my thread. To receive praise from you is pretty exciting, and I'm glad you enjoyed reading the primer. Thank you for the point on Saffi Eriksdotter, but I planned on putting Greater Good in here eventually, so maybe she'll still sit out. That said, what do you mean I can combo off with GG in my current set up by stacking the triggers?
Thank you all for the help, and I will hopefully be a little more active here soon.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Also, I absolutely love Lurking Predators. In a game last night, I was able to cheat in 7 or so creatures before it got back to my turn. Not sure if it's quite what you need though, just a suggestion.
Rith, Rhys, Ghave, Karador, Oona, Wrexial, Uril, Animar, Damia, Mimeoplasm
Then, with threshold, some of these cards might be good:
Krosan Restorer - Untaps lands.
Nantuko Monastery - 4/4 first strike man land (searchable with Scapeshift).
Reborn Hero - Recurs itself for WW.
Just trying to give you ideas.
Thanks a lot for the kind words. It's a really nice primer you got there, very informative and I got some good laughs too.
Actually with Greater Good and no Eldrazi you fine, I was thinking it would be like how Greater Gargadon can sac and arbitrary number of things then resolve all the triggers. You can still do that with Greater Good but I forgot the important detail of Greater Good actually killing you once you let all the triggers resolve since the combo doesn't win on the spot. So Saffi and GG are both fine. You can still make some strong plays with it but nothing too crazy I think. My bad, was getting a little late in the day.:p
The thing is, wraths don't hurt us that much either.
Yes, but it kills hands as well, eliminating nearly all answers.
My issue with Stonecloaker is that I'm mostly concerned about recursion that doesn't target. Animate Dead, etc., aren't as common as, say, Will or Mimeoplasm. And even when you are dealing with pinpoint recursion, you need to have 3 mana open. I haven't tested it yet, but it seems clunky. Anyone have any personal experience with it?
Also, has anyone tested Riftsweeper? It seems like a useful option in theory, but at the same time, I can usually handle a couple things being removed from game. I worry that it's too slow to be that effective and sometimes a dead draw, although I can recall occasions where if I had one in the deck I would have gone and searched it up.
I see your point. I guess I like hanging on to my answers as well. But given that we can recur our creatures at least, I can see why you'd do this. I tend to not like going all in on my graveyard and relying on Karador, as it opens me up to GY hate. But I suppose if you make them discard their hate, then they can't hurt you as much.
I'm running it in my build. I don't cast it often, but when I do, I'm usually very happy to do so. It's very satisfying to reclaim a problem creature my opponents thought was finally gone after they exiled it, to start the pain again. It's also a corner case tool against certain commanders/strategies, but that's not really enough to recommend it if you're not already running it, I don't think.
tl;dr - Riftsweeper: Interesting, not essential.
It is really, really good in the mirror. Against Mimeoplasm, you need to either race, pulling creatures out of your graveyard faster than he can exile them, or attempt to exile the creatures in his graveyard. The important creatures to exile/recur are the ones that have abilities that you can't deal with such as indestructibility.
Otherwise, Stonecloaker is a really good spell. Most spells and effects that deal with the graveyard only let players deal with their own graveyard. Stonecloaker gives you options in how you want to mess that up and can be done at instant speed over and over again. Additionally, you'll likely never tap out turn after turn and you might even run out of things to do. Stonecloaker lets you destroy graveyards with your extra mana, even when it's not necessary.
Most of the time, you'll use its 'drawback' to return itself to your hand so you can do it over and over again. However, you can also use it to return another one of your creatures to your hand. This is really good for cards with ETB abilities. Stonecloaker can then do some damage or chump block and Karador can bring him back from your graveyard.
It's actually really bad. Being in exile is not much different than being in your library and not being drawn. It's difficult to pull a specific card out of your library without wasting another card to do so and that's a wasteful use of your resources in a multiplayer environment. If you wanted to get a card back from exile, you'd want it to go straight to the battlefield or your hand. Since there are no cards that do exactly that (that I know of), the next best option is to put it in your graveyard with Pull From Eternity. If combined with Eternal Witness or Regrowth and targeting Restock or Praetor's Grasp, you can slowly get everything back from exile and put it into your graveyard. It costs a bit of mana, but at the same time, you still have the option to get a creature back from exile too.
EDIT: Just realized you can use Riftsweeper offensively too. It's still worse than Pull from Eternity other than the fact that it's recurable with Karador.
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Has anybody had any experience using Sisters of Stone Death. Seems like an awesome card if you have the mana.
I can see what you're saying. You're right that generally you don't need to get rid of someone's entire GY, and focusing on the most dangerous targets first can still yield good results.
I also like your point that you can just use leftover mana, instead of having to actively deploy a GY hate card ahead of time. Withered Wretch has been very effective for me, but people focus on getting rid of it if they can. Stonecloaker is much harder to deal with. I also like the idea of randomly being able to use it to redeploy an ETB creature if you don't have a sac outlet.
Speaking of sac outlets, sometimes I wish I had more. I wonder if the mana base could support a Miren, Moaning Well. What land would you cut?
I like that he's a creature so that I can pitch him to survival or just let him chump and increase Karador's discount if I don't need to recover anything in exile. There's actually quite a few ways to pull a good creature back from the deck. But I do agree that you're making a tradeoff. I guess both options seem meh. I'll guess I'll wait until I lose a game on account of exile before I bite either bullet. So far I've had over a third of my creatures exiled and still managed to find enough redundant win conditions to pull out a victory. Exiled Revelark sure does make me a sad panda though.
I have one, and thought the same thing: that it is expensive. At the point where I'm casting a spell of that cost, I've looked to things like Knell, Novablast, Avenger, or Shelodred. (I don't have a Tooth and Nail yet, sadly)
The other problem I have it Sisters is that she doesn't do any good if you are being threatened by a flyer (without vigilance), which seems to be a reasonably common type of threat.
I personally love Desert Twister in my monogreen deck but I don't think it's worth a card slot when our general opens us up to hundreds of options in Black and White.
I like Necrotic Sliver here.
Qasali Pridemage
Dramaturtle, welcome to the thread. I really like Mindslicer actually, since we can usually reliably recur our threats much more quickly than other decks. This guy is going in for some heavy consideration for sure, since True Believer has been somewhat lakcluster so far. It needs more testing, but it might be the one to go. What would you cut for it?
Disruptive, I dislike Sisters of Stone Death simply because they are VERY mana intensive, for what I think is not a huge payoff. They are also hugely expensive right from the start, making it an even less appealing choice.
I agree with Disruptive on this one, ParadigmShift (and you, later in the post). I don't think Riftsweeper is really all that excellent, despite it's offensive and defensive applications. It did open my eyes to the former though, which is a cool idea.
ArtificerAndy, welcome to you as well. I agree completely with everything you've suggested. I'm also curious as to what utility guys you've added, so I'd like to see your list.
Thanks for being understanding guys. I really appreciate your patience, and all the help you've given. I still wanna improve this primer, so that'll be a big order of business soon. Keep the suggestions rolling!
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
On the topic of hate bears, though, I have been considering two others: Aven Mindcensor and Grand Abolisher. Anyone have any thoughts or experiences? I have not had a chance to test them out yet.
I have a few ideas myself. What do you think of them?
What do you think of Sunblast Angel? I like it very much in my list. It's a easily tutor- and recurable sweep that doesn't affect your side of the board at all. Sure it's a bit conditional but it very often keeps you from dying to repeated swings. Also you can flash it in with chord of calling after someone declared attackers
Also what about Aura Shards? We should have no problem playing a creature directly after casting it especially with Karador out, it has the potential of dealing with all troublesome artifacts and enchantments on the board without hitting your own and it is even recurable with sun Titan.
I'm also trying ashnods altar. It's a nice sac outlet and helps you doing some nice chains plus can help getting out huge threats pretty easy.
I also have a question: What do you usually search for with an early buried alive? I usually go for Fleshbag Marauder, Eternal Witness and Stonforge Mystic.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
Brute force can sometimes knock down a locked door,
But Knowledge is a skeleton key.
~Jace Beleren~
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )Also I know that it was already mentioned in this thread, but I think nobody posted results about him: Has anyone any results with mindslicer? I think it could be great. If you play it and wrath afterwards it probably puts everyone but us into topdeck mode.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
Brute force can sometimes knock down a locked door,
But Knowledge is a skeleton key.
~Jace Beleren~
Volango, I agree that Sunblast Angel, while conditional, could be potentially really good. Might be worth playing over Magus of the Disk, but I could be wrong. Aura Shards could be really sweet, especially with something like Avenger of Zendikar. Lots of potential there. Ashnod's Altar doesn't seem overwhelmingly good, but it IS a sac outlet, at the least. Mindslicer is a double edged sword, but could be excellent. It does put everyone else into topdeck mode, while allowing us to continue unbothered. This is the card I most want to test.
Hughes, I haven't tried the Wurm, but Bitter Ordeal could be DEVASTATING against some decks, and at the least is a proactive means of dealing with their grave hate. Certainly worth testing out. Let me know if you have any success with it?
Iandowdy, I'm just glad I could help you out. Necrotic Ooze would be excellent if I ran a few more activated abilities; although, the idea of tapping Necrotic Ooze to activate the Magus of the Disk's ability, then sacrificing it as Dauntless Escort is REALLY appealing. Also, as a side note, Order of Whiteclay could be incredible.
Miguel, while I have made my opinions known on Birthing Pod, Minion Reflector is a REALLY strong addition. I have a ton of enter the battlefield effects, and this could make things even more ridiculous. Definitely worth a try.
Allow me to extend a welcome to all of you who have not been in here before, and I hope I can continue to be a resource to you guys. Keep those suggestions coming.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Brute force can sometimes knock down a locked door,
But Knowledge is a skeleton key.
~Jace Beleren~