Teeg is an interesting choice. He does some nice prevention, but I am always worried that he will block something that I need RIGHT now and don't have a sac outlet to get rid of him. Have you run into any such cases using him?
I apologize for double posting, and Viper and ISB can yell at me for this later (sorry guys!), but I updated the deck yet again. I caved and bought one of the last (in my opinion) necessary cards: Vindicate. True Believer also came out for Gaddock Teeg, since I always found that the Believer came down too late, and Teeg has a lasting effect on the board. He stops a lot of the most busted cards in the format, so he handles all the bad stuff for me. I've been pleased by him, and Vindicate is obviously a house, so yeah. Now I just need duals! >.<
Glad you decided to cut True Believer. I was constantly told to add him to my deck by multiple sources and I always thought he was just too little too late. Good choice with Gaddock Teeg, he served me unbelievably well in my old Captain Sisay deck. Edit: Also, Wood Elves is amazing and should definitely be in this list.
DM225, I agree about True Believer now. I needed to test him, and it was close between games he was useful and games he wasn't, but I ended up cutting him because less useful won out slightly. As for Wood Elves, I like the variety that other creatures provide, like Farhaven Elf, as opposed to only nabbing forests. What would you cut?
I am going to just assume that you are all behind me on this one and that she belongs in this list. Replacing Eternal Dragon? I think so. Feel free to disagree, but what do you think she should replace?
Merged Posts. Please use "EDIT" when double posting so close together. -ISB
I am going to just assume that you are all behind me on this one and that she belongs in this list. Replacing Eternal Dragon? I think so. Feel free to disagree, but what do you think she should replace?
I for one am not. I don't think the deck actually needs her. I'm not impressed. Her ability encourages the use of different tactics, such as Magus of the Abyss, Armageddon and other things like that. You could certainly build a Karador stax deck, but the majority of stax effects are sacrifice effects. As such, I don't think Karador would go over well trying to shoe Avacyn into such a build.
For one thing, Avacyn's ability doesn't stop exile, tuck, sacrifice, or -X/-X. All of these are used more than an actual destroy effect. I see Avacyn as being more a meta call really than a throw in.
I mean think about...doesn't Mike do something similar while at the same time allowing you to get extra usage of you etb/ltb effects?
Lastly, she doesn't actually bring you any closer to winning the game. For cmc8, or anything in that range, I'd rather be bringing the game to a close than prolonging it. Sorry, but she just doesn't cut it for me.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
An 8/8 indestructible flier doesn't end games? Maybe I'm new here or something, but that seems SO powerful. And she doesn't necessarily warp the deck around her. I think that I play a lot of wrath effects, and this allows my stuff to stick around, while other peoples' stuff does not. Finally, as for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, I utilize sacrifice effects to get my dudes into the yard with him in play (usually anyway). Things like Greater Good, High Market, and Phyrexian Tower. And he does make Wrath spells better for me, but so does Avacyn. Redundancy is good in this format, no? I think she's at least worth playtesting.
I certainly think she's worth playtesting. Whether or not she will change many decks for better or for worse is still TBD I think. I find counters and paths/swords to be quite effective vs. these colors, and I think this is no different.
I know that I personally don't see many counters in my meta (for better or worse), and even if I did, aside from Spell Crumple, Hinder, Dissipate, and Faerie Trickery, I don't have issues with dudes ending up in my graveyard.
As for Swords and Path and the like, I wouldn't stop playing a card because something else removes it. I have no doubts that the deck will be able to win without Avacyn, the same way it can win without many of the pieces in here. She does have a certain amount of flair to her though.
In the games I play, a 8/8 flier for 8 mana isn't that good. When opponent's have that much mana to spend they're often using it on a combo or something that has an immediate effect on the board. And if you're looking to cheat fatties into play...there are better options. If I'm in the position that an 8/8 flier is going to win the game for me...then I was probably going to win anyway, tbh.
I mean...I am going to test her out...I'm not gonna say she doesn't deserve some testing. I'm just saying that she doesn't impress me.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Looks like a timmy card for me, it's definitely strong, Imagine Elspeth, Knight Errant's ultimate without having to wait for the long loyalty counters. But like some of the suggestions above, I don't think Avacyn has a definite place in this deck type. Moreover, Is it just me, or I can see Worldslayer in her hands lol
I'm with @blackkithkin20. The card looks really cool and flavorful for sure, and it seems like a neat card to add in a deck here and there, but I do not think it is by any means a staple, since she provides no card advantage, and in general, 8/8 flyers don't really do much in the games I play. Just as a somewhat random comparison -- I'd rather spend 7 mana on Rune-Scarred Demon than 8 mana on Avacyn, Angel of Hope. I will almost certainly not be adding it into my Jenara 187 deck.
This card indeed will not bring the game closer to an and, and it barely advances your board. For 8 mana, I want to disrupt someone's game state or just blow someone out. (Like Myojin of Night's Reach)
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I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
I cant wait, wrath effects are big in my meta. Lots of people play black/white and *** and Damnation are everywhere, as with oblivion stone and disks. This will be a great choice for me. By the way, IceBear. Have you tried using Tidehollow Sculler in your deck? Hes amazing in my karador deck. Constantly being able to pick out a threat from someones hand then sac him to make it go away forever ( as long as you do it with his ability on the stack ) is pretty amazing. You already run a lot of sacrifice outlets to make it so its remove from the game permanently.
I think it could maybe be decent but my Karador is built around being low CMC... I am not sure that she brings enough to the table to help since I recover from wraths fastest already.
I feel that, in Karador, 7+cmc should be reserved for things like Sheoldred, Whispering One, Terastodon, Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, etc. Things that mess up your opponent, or help you do so at least, with little effort. Not big swingy things that could be good with wipes unless she eats the removal your opponent's been fisting for a bit. Avacyn's home is in things like Kaalia for sure. imo.
Edit: Sheoldred does need to stick to affect anything for sure, but the the others take immediate action and she is much better suited for our gameplan.
Fair enough, the people have spoken. I've also done some testing with the lovely lady in the list, and she doesn't do enough. It's a really sweet idea in theory, but it just doesn't translate. Consider me (sadly) converted. She is quite a card though. I feel like she has the potential to be scarily good.
As a side note, Ammo, I wish I could use Myojin of Night's Reach, but the inability to get that counter back is pretty rough when I constantly cast things from my yard, or cheat them into play that way.
Truhls, I have not tried Tidehollow Sculler, mostly because I don't feel I have enough sac outlets. I could try Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter like people keep suggesting to up the count by one, but I'm scared of the infinite combos he provides. As for the Sculler, I just think the ability is too narrow. I would rather deal with threats when they hit play as opposed to pulling them out of people's hands.
Fair enough, the people have spoken. I've also done some testing with the lovely lady in the list, and she doesn't do enough. It's a really sweet idea in theory, but it just doesn't translate. Consider me (sadly) converted. She is quite a card though. I feel like she has the potential to be scarily good.
As a side note, Ammo, I wish I could use Myojin of Night's Reach, but the inability to get that counter back is pretty rough when I constantly cast things from my yard, or cheat them into play that way.
Truhls, I have not tried Tidehollow Sculler, mostly because I don't feel I have enough sac outlets. I could try Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter like people keep suggesting to up the count by one, but I'm scared of the infinite combos he provides. As for the Sculler, I just think the ability is too narrow. I would rather deal with threats when they hit play as opposed to pulling them out of people's hands.
Yeah, i play a few combo decks rather often and taking out the pieces whenever i can helps more then waiting till it goes off. Same with someone who has board wipe in their hands, while it doesnt effect me as hard as others, it still slows me down. So it is one of the things i take out of hands. Also, Vish is only as infinite as you want it to be. 2 mana to completely remove or just stall a board wipe when you are in a good position can mean a lot.
Using Sculler to stop combo is actually a pretty sweet deal. I tend to just get Gaddock Teeg into play as fast as possible to stop those kinds of shenanigans from occurring though. I could use more ways of dealing with that I suppose, so perhaps some way of making people discard (in creature form, of course) would be nice... Something akin to the Myojin, but without that nasty limitation of "cast from your hand."
As for Vish Kal, I suppose I could NOT use him infinitely, but once I have that sort of combo assembled, there seems to be no reason not to do it, ya know? Like, most of my playgroup would see that as a show of pity, which no one would take kindly too. It's still a possibility, but we will see.
This post is really long and I'm unable to read all of it, so please excuse and ignore me if what I suggest has be brought up and discussed before.
Due to the nature of the deck, it seems to me that it's almost always better to use creatures instead of instants and sorceries for utility. The example I'd like to use here is Wood Elves vs Nature's Lore. For 1 extra mana, Wood Elves can
-Chump block
-Be recursed over and over by almost every recursion card in your deck.
-Wear skull clamp like a boss.
-Reduce the cost of Karador
-Diabolic intent fodder.
I realize that those comparisons are not nearly as clear-cut as the Wood Elves one, but with all the synergy that creatures have with the deck, I think they're definitely worth considering over their instant/sorcery counterparts. One problem with this approach is that some of the spells replaced are instants and removing those greatly reduces the deck's ability to interact with the stack. For me a remedy to this is winding canyons, even though it doesn't synergy with Karador's ability, I still consider it to be one of the most broken cards in my Karador build.
Also would you consider testing out Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre? It is a great spot removal effect, it is a game finisher and it works really well with all the board wipes in your deck. One interesting utility with him is that you can survival of the fittest or entomb him in response to graveyard hate to prevent your entire grave from being exiled.
So yeah thats all I have for now, please let me know what you think!!
If I ever added Vish Kal, I would make sure to drop him only when I could go infinite with him, but I really don't like the idea of any infinite combos, so methinks he will not be making any appearances.
A.Minor, I think Wood Elves for Nature's Lore is a perfectly valid switch, and one I will probably go with in the very near future. He is an exact duplicate of that effect, and he's a creature. Granted, that one extra mana may make the difference here, but it's worth a try at the least. As for the rest of the switches, I don't know that I agree. I want to try to work in some of those cards, but I don't know that I want to cut any of the four you suggest.
Now, as for Winding Canyons, it's a card I REALLY wanna try in this list. I think the land that should be cut for it is Krosan Verge, since it seems slow anyway, but I'm curious as to what you think on that one. As for Ulamog as a sneaky piece of grave protection, I don't know that I like it. I deal with a lot of people milling my library in my meta, and I often use Life From the Loam as a prominent engine in here, and the chance that it could just reset my grave is not one I like to think about.
Really solid ideas overall. Wood Elves is definitely going in, and I wanna try Winding Canyons as well. Most of all, welcome to the thread.
Yes, I obviously didn't look at your deck closely enough. Having Ulamog and Life from the Loam engine in the same deck is definitely counter-intuitive. Plus I didn't take milling into consideration. Sorry about that
As for some of the creatures, I'm not too confident that they're better than instants/sorceries in the deck since I've never tested them extensively. One card that really stands out to me though is Duplicant. It is a really nice solution to any creature, especially the indestructible ones. I notice that you have swords and path in the deck, but those are all one-use. My favourite thing about the card is that it is a 2/4 and passes the Reveillark test.
Ya I think krosan verge is a fine cut. It's one of those cards I say"wow" and put into every white/green deck when I first discover, then I take them out one by one for better lands. Also I'd like to ask how have the Ravnica bounce lands been for you? It seems like they have some neat synergy with things like vesuva, bojuka bog and the cycle lands. Is the utility worth the tempo bump and the risk of being two-for-oned?
Thanks!
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Glad you decided to cut True Believer. I was constantly told to add him to my deck by multiple sources and I always thought he was just too little too late. Good choice with Gaddock Teeg, he served me unbelievably well in my old Captain Sisay deck. Edit: Also, Wood Elves is amazing and should definitely be in this list.
Experimental Kraj
DM225, I agree about True Believer now. I needed to test him, and it was close between games he was useful and games he wasn't, but I ended up cutting him because less useful won out slightly. As for Wood Elves, I like the variety that other creatures provide, like Farhaven Elf, as opposed to only nabbing forests. What would you cut?
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Combo-Free Kiki-Jiki
Oh. My. God. Guys, look at that angel. She is SO good. Avacyn, Angel of Hope can be found//media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/96/564/635032497086311428.jpg">here, and here she is in image form:
I am going to just assume that you are all behind me on this one and that she belongs in this list. Replacing Eternal Dragon? I think so. Feel free to disagree, but what do you think she should replace?
Merged Posts. Please use "EDIT" when double posting so close together. -ISB
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
It's Karador. <3
BWGGhave the psycho shroomBWG
BWGKarador the crippler!BWG
I for one am not. I don't think the deck actually needs her. I'm not impressed. Her ability encourages the use of different tactics, such as Magus of the Abyss, Armageddon and other things like that. You could certainly build a Karador stax deck, but the majority of stax effects are sacrifice effects. As such, I don't think Karador would go over well trying to shoe Avacyn into such a build.
For one thing, Avacyn's ability doesn't stop exile, tuck, sacrifice, or -X/-X. All of these are used more than an actual destroy effect. I see Avacyn as being more a meta call really than a throw in.
I mean think about...doesn't Mike do something similar while at the same time allowing you to get extra usage of you etb/ltb effects?
Lastly, she doesn't actually bring you any closer to winning the game. For cmc8, or anything in that range, I'd rather be bringing the game to a close than prolonging it. Sorry, but she just doesn't cut it for me.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
As for Swords and Path and the like, I wouldn't stop playing a card because something else removes it. I have no doubts that the deck will be able to win without Avacyn, the same way it can win without many of the pieces in here. She does have a certain amount of flair to her though.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I mean...I am going to test her out...I'm not gonna say she doesn't deserve some testing. I'm just saying that she doesn't impress me.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
'Greatness, at any cost.'
Rafiq - Karador - Teferi - Momir Vig - Reaper King - Daretti
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
This card indeed will not bring the game closer to an and, and it barely advances your board. For 8 mana, I want to disrupt someone's game state or just blow someone out. (Like Myojin of Night's Reach)
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Edit: Sheoldred does need to stick to affect anything for sure, but the the others take immediate action and she is much better suited for our gameplan.
n0 c0mb0z Sharuum:symw::symu::symb:
Seton Druid Party:symg:
Drana Big Mana Black
Baru Landfall:symg:
Venser:symu:
Animar tempo:symu::symr::symg: (Retired)Azami, Lady of Card Advantage(Retired =[ )As a side note, Ammo, I wish I could use Myojin of Night's Reach, but the inability to get that counter back is pretty rough when I constantly cast things from my yard, or cheat them into play that way.
Truhls, I have not tried Tidehollow Sculler, mostly because I don't feel I have enough sac outlets. I could try Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter like people keep suggesting to up the count by one, but I'm scared of the infinite combos he provides. As for the Sculler, I just think the ability is too narrow. I would rather deal with threats when they hit play as opposed to pulling them out of people's hands.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Yeah, i play a few combo decks rather often and taking out the pieces whenever i can helps more then waiting till it goes off. Same with someone who has board wipe in their hands, while it doesnt effect me as hard as others, it still slows me down. So it is one of the things i take out of hands. Also, Vish is only as infinite as you want it to be. 2 mana to completely remove or just stall a board wipe when you are in a good position can mean a lot.
As for Vish Kal, I suppose I could NOT use him infinitely, but once I have that sort of combo assembled, there seems to be no reason not to do it, ya know? Like, most of my playgroup would see that as a show of pity, which no one would take kindly too. It's still a possibility, but we will see.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Due to the nature of the deck, it seems to me that it's almost always better to use creatures instead of instants and sorceries for utility. The example I'd like to use here is Wood Elves vs Nature's Lore. For 1 extra mana, Wood Elves can
-Chump block
-Be recursed over and over by almost every recursion card in your deck.
-Wear skull clamp like a boss.
-Reduce the cost of Karador
-Diabolic intent fodder.
Similar comparisons can be made for Solemn Simulacrum versus cultivate. Also Mangara of Corondor (with sac outlet), Duplicant, Woodfall Primus and Big Game Hunter versus cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Mortify and Putrefy.
I realize that those comparisons are not nearly as clear-cut as the Wood Elves one, but with all the synergy that creatures have with the deck, I think they're definitely worth considering over their instant/sorcery counterparts. One problem with this approach is that some of the spells replaced are instants and removing those greatly reduces the deck's ability to interact with the stack. For me a remedy to this is winding canyons, even though it doesn't synergy with Karador's ability, I still consider it to be one of the most broken cards in my Karador build.
Also would you consider testing out Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre? It is a great spot removal effect, it is a game finisher and it works really well with all the board wipes in your deck. One interesting utility with him is that you can survival of the fittest or entomb him in response to graveyard hate to prevent your entire grave from being exiled.
So yeah thats all I have for now, please let me know what you think!!
A.Minor, I think Wood Elves for Nature's Lore is a perfectly valid switch, and one I will probably go with in the very near future. He is an exact duplicate of that effect, and he's a creature. Granted, that one extra mana may make the difference here, but it's worth a try at the least. As for the rest of the switches, I don't know that I agree. I want to try to work in some of those cards, but I don't know that I want to cut any of the four you suggest.
Now, as for Winding Canyons, it's a card I REALLY wanna try in this list. I think the land that should be cut for it is Krosan Verge, since it seems slow anyway, but I'm curious as to what you think on that one. As for Ulamog as a sneaky piece of grave protection, I don't know that I like it. I deal with a lot of people milling my library in my meta, and I often use Life From the Loam as a prominent engine in here, and the chance that it could just reset my grave is not one I like to think about.
Really solid ideas overall. Wood Elves is definitely going in, and I wanna try Winding Canyons as well. Most of all, welcome to the thread.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
As for some of the creatures, I'm not too confident that they're better than instants/sorceries in the deck since I've never tested them extensively. One card that really stands out to me though is Duplicant. It is a really nice solution to any creature, especially the indestructible ones. I notice that you have swords and path in the deck, but those are all one-use. My favourite thing about the card is that it is a 2/4 and passes the Reveillark test.
Ya I think krosan verge is a fine cut. It's one of those cards I say"wow" and put into every white/green deck when I first discover, then I take them out one by one for better lands. Also I'd like to ask how have the Ravnica bounce lands been for you? It seems like they have some neat synergy with things like vesuva, bojuka bog and the cycle lands. Is the utility worth the tempo bump and the risk of being two-for-oned?
Thanks!