Thank you both. Makes sense. I knew there had to be a good reason since I know you to be a good deckbuilder.
One other question:
I have been goldfishing your build and it seems to have a pretty slow start as far as getting good stuff down on the table. I know you run a lot of ramp, but it seems to me that often I don't get to play a creature until turn 5. Is this usual?
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
Hey blackjack just wondering about your win conditions. So you usually let a combo present itself late into the game or go searching for a specific one?
Hey blackjack just wondering about your win conditions. So you usually let a combo present itself late into the game or go searching for a specific one?
I never set out to do anything specific and just play things out according to how the game develops. I usually like playing out long, "grindy" games.
Many games, it seems, are just endless loops of me trying to combo, getting stuffed, recurring something and trying again, getting disrupted, try again until something works. It used to be a lot easier to sneak things through, but I've been playing this deck so long, my group is getting pretty smart about stopping my combos.
So, this weekend I got a new toy to play with - Dark Prophecy.
I really passed over this card when it was spoiled, but when I had it in my hand I just had to stare at it for a minute, and I couldn't help but grin like an idiot. I decided to test it out, replacing Phyrexian Arena. And my consensus? This card is absolutely nuts for us.
I'm running pretty close to the list as it appears in the original post, at the moment. I had this out and let me tell you, the card advantage this adds to the Skullclamp + Bloodghast/Reassembling Skeleton/Nether Traitor engines is absolutely spectacular. When I set up my Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blasting Station combo, my life was going down as quickly as the opponent's I was knocking down, but I drew into every answer I needed for the rest of the game. I had a Vindicate and Mortify in my hand, not to mention having 21 cards in my hand thanks to Reliquary Tower.
Some people may prefer to keep running Phyrexian Arena and letting it passively do it's thing during their upkeep, which is totally understandable. But, Dark Prophecy suits my playstyle in that it allows very aggressive card draw. I would highly recommend you guys at least test it, even if you don't keep it After spending hours testing last night, I found I was consistently able to remove it when it was too dangerous and bring it back easily enough when I wanted it again.
What did you use to remove the enchantment when it hurt you too much?
Over the course of about 8 games, it varied from Vindicate, Mortify, Austere Command to hitting it with my own Archon of Justice LTB trigger while killing other stuff with Corpse Dance. Truth is, I had drawn so many cards that I had several tutors in my hand that I could've fetched an answer with at any time. At one point I had Demonic Tutor and Enlightened Tutor in my hand. With all the tutors this build runs, if I didn't draw into an answer after about 6-7 draws from it, then I had a tutor to find it. Now, using a tutor to find something to remove your own enchantment may sound like a waste of a tutor, but keep in mind the context: If you need to do this, you probably have drawn a LOT of cards and have many options. If you lost 15-20 life to this card, that means you drew 15-20 cards from it.
I'm truthfully never too afraid of getting low on life with this deck, because of how much removal -targeted and mass- that we have to work with. Having the ability to abuse ETB/LTB triggers on a whim that serve as removal with creatures makes the pain from it negligible (especially if you're running Exsanguinate and Kokusho, the Evening Star).
One game, I put Kokusho on my Mimic Vat and I never had to worry about life again. Blackjack took the card out of his list in the main post a while back, but it's a pet card of mine so I never took it out of my build.
Hey Blackjack. I ran (almost) exactly the same list as you, but recently I decided to cut Sanguine Bond, exquisite blood and academy rector. Read you've been considering this cut. Haven't been able to make these work in my rather spikey meta. Trying now with a few planeswalkers instead: Elspeth, Liliana. Also re-added Martial coup. We'll see how this works out.
Hey Blackjack. I ran (almost) exactly the same list as you, but recently I decided to cut Sanguine Bond, exquisite blood and academy rector. Read you've been considering this cut. Haven't been able to make these work in my rather spikey meta. Trying now with a few planeswalkers instead: Elspeth, Liliana. Also re-added Martial coup. We'll see how this works out.
I'm not running Bond/Blood in this deck, but I do in my Vish Kal. Did you mean to be in that thread?
I'm not running Bond/Blood in this deck, but I do in my Vish Kal. Did you mean to be in that thread?
Sorry! I merged some of your ideas into one deck, and Bond/Blood does'nt work too well for me into a GCO deck. You're absolutely right in not combining those Do you feel Academy Rector is a must in this deck?
I played long without Academy Rector, so I wouldn't say it's mandatory at all. But it's still really good card which you can most likely fit in several other decks too, so getting one is good investment anyway!
I played long without Academy Rector, so I wouldn't say it's mandatory at all. But it's still really good card which you can most likely fit in several other decks too, so getting one is good investment anyway!
Agree completely. I'll probably end up replacing Rector myself pretty soon.
I'd probably call it a "must have" if you run a couple enchantment based combos though.
I am having a blast playing this deck! I too have put Academy Rector on the chopping block though. There's just not enough need to have it.
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
I don't think you can over value the chance to put martyr's bond or phyrexian arena into play. The enchantments in this deck may not be plentiful, but they are game changing. It makes your key enchantments uncounterable and you can tutor up a win with angelic renewal. The only down side is you can only do it once.
Why is this deck running Cavern of souls? I've been building this deck for a while now but I really don't see any reason to play it, we aren't a tribal deck and our creatures don't share that many creature types. I think I will personally replace it with something like reflecting pool or tainted field
Why is this deck running Cavern of souls? I've been building this deck for a while now but I really don't see any reason to play it, we aren't a tribal deck and our creatures don't share that many creature types. I think I will personally replace it with something like reflecting pool or tainted field
I wouldn't call Cavern a "must have", but it's got it's use:
Naming "Spirit" not only protects the Commander, but also...
What about the new Ashen Rider that was just spoiled?
4WWBB
Flying 5/5
When ~ enters or the battlefield or dies exile target permanent
IMO much better than Angel of Despair, albeit for 1 mana more. Also, it's not a bald chick (nothing against them, I just prefer my angels to have hair)
Erebos, God of the Dead - He's a less expensive Greed and has the perk of preventing others from gaining life. That's a pretty huge perk, but I'm not sure what I'd take out for him. I may well use this as an opportunity to replace Academy Rector, as the ability to draw cards on demand would be a lot more convenient than the Rector, where the targets are limited and I can search out those enchantments via other tutors.
Ashen Rider - I'll be making room for this in my deck and playing it and Angel of Despair both, because they're both extremely powerful effects on a creature. I'm not sure what I'd replace to put it in, but this is pretty much a must. Archon of Justice seems like the prime target since it's a worse version, but I don't want to get rid of him, either.
Ashen Rider is a badass version of the archon. As has been said I want this card in my build, but I've no idea what I will drop for it. I cant wait for the moment I have this under a mimic vat or bouncing with corpse dance.
Well i find with this card ill be able to replace the last Vivid land in my deck thus i should be running almost every viable BW dual land plus the art is sick
Side note the new archon is ****ing amazing, idk maybe we bite the bullet and remove the Knight Captain for it. other than that i have no real idea other than replacing AoD with it
Well i find with this card ill be able to replace the last Vivid land in my deck thus i should be running almost every viable BW dual land plus the art is sick
Side note the new archon is ****ing amazing, idk maybe we bite the bullet and remove the Knight Captain for it. other than that i have no real idea other than replacing AoD with it
I don't think replacing an important combo piece for some removal is worth it, especially since we have 3 cards who all deal with permanents and are creature. I really think Angel of despair is the card I will be cutting for it, exiling is way more relevant in my playgroup than destroying.
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One other question:
I have been goldfishing your build and it seems to have a pretty slow start as far as getting good stuff down on the table. I know you run a lot of ramp, but it seems to me that often I don't get to play a creature until turn 5. Is this usual?
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Not uncommon at all.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
I never set out to do anything specific and just play things out according to how the game develops. I usually like playing out long, "grindy" games.
Many games, it seems, are just endless loops of me trying to combo, getting stuffed, recurring something and trying again, getting disrupted, try again until something works. It used to be a lot easier to sneak things through, but I've been playing this deck so long, my group is getting pretty smart about stopping my combos.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
I really passed over this card when it was spoiled, but when I had it in my hand I just had to stare at it for a minute, and I couldn't help but grin like an idiot. I decided to test it out, replacing Phyrexian Arena. And my consensus? This card is absolutely nuts for us.
I'm running pretty close to the list as it appears in the original post, at the moment. I had this out and let me tell you, the card advantage this adds to the Skullclamp + Bloodghast/Reassembling Skeleton/Nether Traitor engines is absolutely spectacular. When I set up my Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blasting Station combo, my life was going down as quickly as the opponent's I was knocking down, but I drew into every answer I needed for the rest of the game. I had a Vindicate and Mortify in my hand, not to mention having 21 cards in my hand thanks to Reliquary Tower.
Some people may prefer to keep running Phyrexian Arena and letting it passively do it's thing during their upkeep, which is totally understandable. But, Dark Prophecy suits my playstyle in that it allows very aggressive card draw. I would highly recommend you guys at least test it, even if you don't keep it After spending hours testing last night, I found I was consistently able to remove it when it was too dangerous and bring it back easily enough when I wanted it again.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Over the course of about 8 games, it varied from Vindicate, Mortify, Austere Command to hitting it with my own Archon of Justice LTB trigger while killing other stuff with Corpse Dance. Truth is, I had drawn so many cards that I had several tutors in my hand that I could've fetched an answer with at any time. At one point I had Demonic Tutor and Enlightened Tutor in my hand. With all the tutors this build runs, if I didn't draw into an answer after about 6-7 draws from it, then I had a tutor to find it. Now, using a tutor to find something to remove your own enchantment may sound like a waste of a tutor, but keep in mind the context: If you need to do this, you probably have drawn a LOT of cards and have many options. If you lost 15-20 life to this card, that means you drew 15-20 cards from it.
I'm truthfully never too afraid of getting low on life with this deck, because of how much removal -targeted and mass- that we have to work with. Having the ability to abuse ETB/LTB triggers on a whim that serve as removal with creatures makes the pain from it negligible (especially if you're running Exsanguinate and Kokusho, the Evening Star).
One game, I put Kokusho on my Mimic Vat and I never had to worry about life again. Blackjack took the card out of his list in the main post a while back, but it's a pet card of mine so I never took it out of my build.
(Also known as Xenphire)
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
I'm not running Bond/Blood in this deck, but I do in my Vish Kal. Did you mean to be in that thread?
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Sorry! I merged some of your ideas into one deck, and Bond/Blood does'nt work too well for me into a GCO deck. You're absolutely right in not combining those Do you feel Academy Rector is a must in this deck?
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Agree completely. I'll probably end up replacing Rector myself pretty soon.
I'd probably call it a "must have" if you run a couple enchantment based combos though.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
I'm a fan of Enchantments as I play the Stax game and they tend to stick around so Academy Rector helps me out.
...but yea I love playing Ghost Council. It's so resilient and can survive almost any board state.
BWGhost Council of OrzhovaBW
RUGRikuStormRUG
I wouldn't call Cavern a "must have", but it's got it's use:
Naming "Spirit" not only protects the Commander, but also...
All three of which are combo pieces that very often can win the game as long as they can actually hit the battlefield.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
4WWBB
Flying 5/5
When ~ enters or the battlefield or dies exile target permanent
IMO much better than Angel of Despair, albeit for 1 mana more. Also, it's not a bald chick (nothing against them, I just prefer my angels to have hair)
Ashen Rider - I'll be making room for this in my deck and playing it and Angel of Despair both, because they're both extremely powerful effects on a creature. I'm not sure what I'd replace to put it in, but this is pretty much a must. Archon of Justice seems like the prime target since it's a worse version, but I don't want to get rid of him, either.
(Also known as Xenphire)
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Only if I can find a foil one.
Well i find with this card ill be able to replace the last Vivid land in my deck thus i should be running almost every viable BW dual land plus the art is sick
Side note the new archon is ****ing amazing, idk maybe we bite the bullet and remove the Knight Captain for it. other than that i have no real idea other than replacing AoD with it
I don't think replacing an important combo piece for some removal is worth it, especially since we have 3 cards who all deal with permanents and are creature. I really think Angel of despair is the card I will be cutting for it, exiling is way more relevant in my playgroup than destroying.