Any multiplayer game is about politics. The moment you drop a Gravepact effect a la Butcher of Malakir or something like Vish Kal, you're automatically a threat to the game plan of everyone else. When it comes to game winning combos, you need to be in a position to win with them or abuse them right away. Hold your combo pieces in your hand. If you're going to go for a Reveillark + Karmic Guide infinite loop combo with Blasting Station or Ashnod's Altar with Exsanguinate/Profane Command, you want to wait until you're ready to win. If you leave one of your combo pieces on the field, you're not only going to have to deal with it being removed, but also possibly draw graveyard hate.
Keep in mind that if anyone tries to exile your guys, that any effects that require a sacrifice as part of the cost can be used response to send a guy to your graveyard. With Corpse Dance and some other reanimation cards in the deck, it becomes easy enough to get guys back from the graveyard. But still, the safest way is to build up a board position to defend yourself while lying in wait to strike all at once. If you can't take them all out at once, then the more resources they waste on each other, the less resources they have to spend on you when you become a threat.
So i guess my question is what can this deck do to build a strong board quickly or how can it disrupt players long enough for me to catch up?
Against experienced players with fast combo decks, you generally won't get to have a "strong board position" and do what you want very often, and "disrupting" the same multiplayer table is not only nearly impossible, but also makes you a target for the attempt.
With that said, read everything Xenphire said several times, it's spot on.
With a playgroup like you've described, you're probably going to need to adjust your build to be combo heavy, as a slower, "grindy" game is going to be a lot tougher to win with at such a table. Play politics, defend yourself, combo out. You'll probably have to take out some of the bigger, more "fun" stuff
Another option is to change the deck into Orzhov + green. I don't really want to steer anyone away from Ghost Dad, but the important thing is that you enjoy your deck. Ghave, Guru of Spores decks can be insanely competitive combo machines, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain decks can play a lot like this one with added fast ramp and fatties (I have a Karador deck myself). If you wish to go that direction, I have a couple threads bookmarked I can recommend. Ghost Council requres more finesse and politics than the green added commanders.
Here's the deck as it looks right now. Actually now I've got it laid down in front of me I can see some pretty weird choices myself. Probably deserve some ridicule for this one
Not at all.
Looking over your list, I see very little that I would call a poor choice. Disenchant, Sculler and Unhallowed Pact (and Rupture Spire) are pretty high on the cut list, imo, but the rest of the cards, taken as individual choices, are solid.
What you'll need to do in order to adjust to your playgroup (besides adjusting to a more "all at once win" playstyle), is drop some of the slower stuff (like Debtors' Knell), and put in a bit more fast tutoring. I can highly recommend Demonic Tutor and Entomb.
Not sure if someone's mentioned this or not before. But in your explanaition of cards in the deck for each package, you say Sun Titan can recur spells. You said it gets back Debt and Command. It does not do that. It only can return permanents.
What do you guys usually aim for with rector? Angelic renewal? Necropotence? It's such an enchantment light deck that unless I've got the suntitan in hand I never know what else to use her on.
Usually Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena or Land Tax early game. Though I'm currently plaing G/B/W deck, so I got some other good targets too.
Not sure if someone's mentioned this or not before. But in your explanaition of cards in the deck for each package, you say Sun Titan can recur spells. You said it gets back Debt and Command. It does not do that. It only can return permanents.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed (not Titan)...... is what that should have read, thanks for catching that. I fixed where it said recurs Command but I couldn't find where it said that about Debt. I'll keep looking, if you could give me the exact location, I'd appreciate it.
What do you guys usually aim for with rector? Angelic renewal? Necropotence? It's such an enchantment light deck that unless I've got the suntitan in hand I never know what else to use her on.
So what do you all think about the new Artifact in M14?
Strionic Resonator
Artifact (R)
:2mana:, :symtap:: Copy target triggered ability you control. You may choose new targets for the copy. (A triggered ability uses the words "when", "whenever" or "at".)
Its tines cannot be rung by mere physical force. Only magic of great power can start its eldritch resonance.
So what do you all think about the new Artifact in M14?
Strionic Resonator
Artifact (R)
:2mana:, :symtap:: Copy target triggered ability you control. You may choose new targets for the copy. (A triggered ability uses the words "when", "whenever" or "at".)
Its tines cannot be rung by mere physical force. Only magic of great power can start its eldritch resonance.
This works with almost every one of our creatures
i love cards like these! there are so many possibilities with it i cant even comprehend.
So what do you all think about the new Artifact in M14?
Strionic Resonator
Artifact (R)
:2mana:, :symtap:: Copy target triggered ability you control. You may choose new targets for the copy. (A triggered ability uses the words "when", "whenever" or "at".)
Its tines cannot be rung by mere physical force. Only magic of great power can start its eldritch resonance.
I'm really going to try to pick one of these up at the pre-release to test out. Paying 2 mana to duplicate a triggered effect is just too good with all the triggered abilities we're abusing in the deck.
Angel of Despair - Hit another permanent when she ETB. Angel of Serenity - Exile 6 targets, instead of just 3. Archon of Justice - Hit another permanent when he dies. Fiend Hunter - Exile a second target creature when he ETB. Fleshbag Marauder - Each player sacrifices 2 creatures, instead of 1 when it ETB. Karmic Guide - Reanimate two targets, instead of one when she ETB. Knight-Captain of Eos - Twice as many creature tokens when she ETB. Kokusho, the Evening Star - Each player loses 10 instead of 5 when he dies. Kor Cartographer - Find a second land. Puppeteer Clique - Reanimate two creatures from an opponent's graveyard instead of one when he ETB. Reveillark - Reanimate up to 4 creatures with power 2 or less when he dies. Rune-Scarred Demon - Search for two cards, instead of one when he ETB. Sheoldred, Whispering One - Reanimate two creatures on your upkeep, or wait and make an opponent sacrifice two creatures instead of one. Solemn Simulacrum - Activate to look for two lands or draw two, instead of one. Sun Titan - Reanimate 2 targets instead of 1. Wurmcoil Engine - Make twice the amount of tokens when he dies. Yosei, the Morning Star - Lock out two people on his first death, instead of one.
When she dies, do the 6 creatures come back? I'm thinking they don't since you only copy the exile part, not the return part. So you could exile 3 permanently and 3 non permanently, assuming the angel isn't sacrificed in response to its trigger.
When she dies, do the 6 creatures come back? I'm thinking they don't since you only copy the exile part, not the return part. So you could exile 3 permanently and 3 non permanently, assuming the angel isn't sacrificed in response to its trigger.
They all come back. While the two triggers aren't linked, the LTB trigger only cares about if the cards were exiled as a result of Angel of Serenity's ETB trigger. Which instance of the trigger exiles the cards doesn't matter, as they're all exiled by her.
Still, copying her trigger is pretty potent, and I can't wait to use it
Hey just wondering what do you think about chromatic lantern and Thespian's Stage?
Both fine cards in here. I don't consider either to be a poor choice. The only reason they aren't in my build right now:
Lantern - I like this one better in 3+ color decks. I'm not crazy about rocks that cost more than 2, but those that I do use in here (Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic, Orzhov Keyrune) I feel have a bit of an edge in value over the Lantern.
Stage - I'd probably run if I didn't already have Vesuva.
I have to say that I have always been impressed with the synergy of this deck. Lately, I have been trying to get the cards together to build it and I had some questions about some of your card choices:
1) Why run Kor Cartographer" target="blank">Kor Cartographer over Pilgrim's Eye? Pilgrim's Eye is cheaper to cast and fetches any basic land instead of just Plains. Obviously, if you want Mistveil or a dual, the Cartographer is better, but if you are wanting to smooth out your land drops, i would think Pilgrim's Eye wins out.
2) Why run Argivian Find over Argivian Archaeologist? Is it just the co$t/availability? You can use the Archaeologist's ability more than once and being a creature, is easy to recur.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
I have to say that I have always been impressed with the synergy of this deck. Lately, I have been trying to get the cards together to build it and I had some questions about some of your card choices:
1) Why run Kor Cartographer" target="blank">Kor Cartographer over Pilgrim's Eye? Pilgrim's Eye is cheaper to cast and fetches any basic land instead of just Plains. Obviously, if you want Mistveil or a dual, the Cartographer is better, but if you are wanting to smooth out your land drops, i would think Pilgrim's Eye wins out.
Cartogropher puts the land into play meaning it ramps rather than just securing the next land drop. Pilgrim's Eye is still nice but there are a lot of ways in which white can get more lands to hand so its less impressive with access to white. Ramp puts you further into the game sooner though.
2) Why run Argivian Find over Argivian Archaeologist? Is it just the co$t/availability? You can use the Archaeologist's ability more than once and being a creature, is easy to recur.
I would suspect due to its versatility and cheap ease of use. If you find yourself generally wanting to recover artifacts then the archaeologist can work alright. But it will still take a lot of mana to recover that one card back to hand vs the ease of use and being able to recast the same turn with the Find. If you want to get advantage and pick up a bunch of artifacts then the Argivian Archaeologist can be nice but generally speaking its just to take the best target back and get it back into play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Expanding on Argivian Find a bit, my use of it is almost exclusively because of how often I'm sitting with a hand + board that I could combo out with, but one artifact (Blasting Station, Nim Deathmantle, Ashnod's Altar) is sitting in the yard. I can play the Find at opponent's eot with one leftover mana, and combo out on my turn. With the Archaeologist, he has to survive going around the table once, and then cost me two mana during my turn. Much, much easier to disrupt. Plus the added benefit of recurring an enchantment like Angelic Renewal if I'm sitting on a Sun Titan combo.
It's not just about recurring an artifact, it's about instant, hard to disrupt artifact recursion into a combo all at once.
Ouch.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Keep in mind that if anyone tries to exile your guys, that any effects that require a sacrifice as part of the cost can be used response to send a guy to your graveyard. With Corpse Dance and some other reanimation cards in the deck, it becomes easy enough to get guys back from the graveyard. But still, the safest way is to build up a board position to defend yourself while lying in wait to strike all at once. If you can't take them all out at once, then the more resources they waste on each other, the less resources they have to spend on you when you become a threat.
It's all a bout finesse.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Against experienced players with fast combo decks, you generally won't get to have a "strong board position" and do what you want very often, and "disrupting" the same multiplayer table is not only nearly impossible, but also makes you a target for the attempt.
With that said, read everything Xenphire said several times, it's spot on.
With a playgroup like you've described, you're probably going to need to adjust your build to be combo heavy, as a slower, "grindy" game is going to be a lot tougher to win with at such a table. Play politics, defend yourself, combo out. You'll probably have to take out some of the bigger, more "fun" stuff
Another option is to change the deck into Orzhov + green. I don't really want to steer anyone away from Ghost Dad, but the important thing is that you enjoy your deck. Ghave, Guru of Spores decks can be insanely competitive combo machines, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain decks can play a lot like this one with added fast ramp and fatties (I have a Karador deck myself). If you wish to go that direction, I have a couple threads bookmarked I can recommend. Ghost Council requres more finesse and politics than the green added commanders.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Not at all.
Looking over your list, I see very little that I would call a poor choice. Disenchant, Sculler and Unhallowed Pact (and Rupture Spire) are pretty high on the cut list, imo, but the rest of the cards, taken as individual choices, are solid.
What you'll need to do in order to adjust to your playgroup (besides adjusting to a more "all at once win" playstyle), is drop some of the slower stuff (like Debtors' Knell), and put in a bit more fast tutoring. I can highly recommend Demonic Tutor and Entomb.
Here are the links to a couple Orzhov + green primer threads that I like.
Karador - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=334655
Ghave - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=332575
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Mono Konda| Sakashima| Yahenni| Ashling| Selvala|C Karn
Guilds Grand Arbiter| Meren| Gisa & Geralf| Scorpion God| Omnath| Sisay| Karlov| Avacyn| Jhoira v2| Rashmi|
Shards WUB Oloro|GWU Roon|RGW Jurassic Park|UBR Nekusar|BRG Kresh|
Clans RWU Narset|WBR Vampires|BGW Doran|UBG Muldrotha|URG Animar|
4-Colors GWUB Atraxa|BRGWSaskia|RGWU Hydra Hug| UBRGYidris|WUBRBreya|
5-Color WUBRG Super Friends
Extra Decks Titania| Taigam| Locust God| Cats| Tishana| Kumena| Squirrels| Slimefoot} Baron|RGW Samut|UBR Pirates|UBR Mairsil| WUBRG Ramos|
Usually Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena or Land Tax early game. Though I'm currently plaing G/B/W deck, so I got some other good targets too.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed (not Titan)...... is what that should have read, thanks for catching that. I fixed where it said recurs Command but I couldn't find where it said that about Debt. I'll keep looking, if you could give me the exact location, I'd appreciate it.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Early = Usually Phyrexian Arena or Necropotence.
In a defensive pinch, I've used it for Faith's Fetters.
Otherwise, I try to wait 'til I can combo by fetching Angelic Renewal or Necromancy.
My build has become light enough on enchants that I often consider dropping Rector.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Artifact (R)
:2mana:, :symtap:: Copy target triggered ability you control. You may choose new targets for the copy. (A triggered ability uses the words "when", "whenever" or "at".)
Its tines cannot be rung by mere physical force. Only magic of great power can start its eldritch resonance.
This works with almost every one of our creatures
(Also known as Xenphire)
i love cards like these! there are so many possibilities with it i cant even comprehend.
Wow..... my head hurts just thinking about this.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Angel of Despair - Hit another permanent when she ETB.
Angel of Serenity - Exile 6 targets, instead of just 3.
Archon of Justice - Hit another permanent when he dies.
Fiend Hunter - Exile a second target creature when he ETB.
Fleshbag Marauder - Each player sacrifices 2 creatures, instead of 1 when it ETB.
Karmic Guide - Reanimate two targets, instead of one when she ETB.
Knight-Captain of Eos - Twice as many creature tokens when she ETB.
Kokusho, the Evening Star - Each player loses 10 instead of 5 when he dies.
Kor Cartographer - Find a second land.
Puppeteer Clique - Reanimate two creatures from an opponent's graveyard instead of one when he ETB.
Reveillark - Reanimate up to 4 creatures with power 2 or less when he dies.
Rune-Scarred Demon - Search for two cards, instead of one when he ETB.
Sheoldred, Whispering One - Reanimate two creatures on your upkeep, or wait and make an opponent sacrifice two creatures instead of one.
Solemn Simulacrum - Activate to look for two lands or draw two, instead of one.
Sun Titan - Reanimate 2 targets instead of 1.
Wurmcoil Engine - Make twice the amount of tokens when he dies.
Yosei, the Morning Star - Lock out two people on his first death, instead of one.
(Also known as Xenphire)
When she dies, do the 6 creatures come back? I'm thinking they don't since you only copy the exile part, not the return part. So you could exile 3 permanently and 3 non permanently, assuming the angel isn't sacrificed in response to its trigger.
They all come back. While the two triggers aren't linked, the LTB trigger only cares about if the cards were exiled as a result of Angel of Serenity's ETB trigger. Which instance of the trigger exiles the cards doesn't matter, as they're all exiled by her.
Still, copying her trigger is pretty potent, and I can't wait to use it
(Also known as Xenphire)
Both fine cards in here. I don't consider either to be a poor choice. The only reason they aren't in my build right now:
Lantern - I like this one better in 3+ color decks. I'm not crazy about rocks that cost more than 2, but those that I do use in here (Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic, Orzhov Keyrune) I feel have a bit of an edge in value over the Lantern.
Stage - I'd probably run if I didn't already have Vesuva.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
You also don't run coffers so its not as important to have ways to copy lands.
Glad to hear it's falling into place for you. What kind of build are you running?
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
1) Why run Kor Cartographer" target="blank">Kor Cartographer over Pilgrim's Eye? Pilgrim's Eye is cheaper to cast and fetches any basic land instead of just Plains. Obviously, if you want Mistveil or a dual, the Cartographer is better, but if you are wanting to smooth out your land drops, i would think Pilgrim's Eye wins out.
2) Why run Argivian Find over Argivian Archaeologist? Is it just the co$t/availability? You can use the Archaeologist's ability more than once and being a creature, is easy to recur.
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Cartogropher puts the land into play meaning it ramps rather than just securing the next land drop. Pilgrim's Eye is still nice but there are a lot of ways in which white can get more lands to hand so its less impressive with access to white. Ramp puts you further into the game sooner though.
I would suspect due to its versatility and cheap ease of use. If you find yourself generally wanting to recover artifacts then the archaeologist can work alright. But it will still take a lot of mana to recover that one card back to hand vs the ease of use and being able to recast the same turn with the Find. If you want to get advantage and pick up a bunch of artifacts then the Argivian Archaeologist can be nice but generally speaking its just to take the best target back and get it back into play.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Expanding on Argivian Find a bit, my use of it is almost exclusively because of how often I'm sitting with a hand + board that I could combo out with, but one artifact (Blasting Station, Nim Deathmantle, Ashnod's Altar) is sitting in the yard. I can play the Find at opponent's eot with one leftover mana, and combo out on my turn. With the Archaeologist, he has to survive going around the table once, and then cost me two mana during my turn. Much, much easier to disrupt. Plus the added benefit of recurring an enchantment like Angelic Renewal if I'm sitting on a Sun Titan combo.
It's not just about recurring an artifact, it's about instant, hard to disrupt artifact recursion into a combo all at once.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning