The deck run very very well has he is, he almost lock down all game i had with him, it's a little bit too powerful I guess, Sol ring/Manacrypt/Winter Orb are cards too good with GAA4.
Tezzeret The seeker is auto include in this deck, it's a staple of prison.
He sticks board very easily, a kill on his own, a lock with winter orb, high ramp just by tutor a random land or manarocks, all you need in ONE card.
With your list, Tezzie is indeed a PW you should have. He fetches some damn important things for you, namely artifact-accel. If my list had as heavy an artifact dependence as yours (certainly not a bad thing!), then I'd definitely make room for him. As it is, though, (and I've had this discussion before a few pages back), Tezzeret, the Seeker doesn't work too well.
One thing you should be careful of, however, is feeding your opponents' GYs. You're not running enough counter-magic to stop 1) GY shenanigans, and 2) board wipes. One Bane of Progress, Akroma's Vengeance, or even Nevinyrral's Disk and your board state is toast. You can use Replenish or Open the Vaults to get around this, but Open the Vaults is dangerous because it's a symmetrical effect that gives your opponents their stuff back. And you're not running enough enchantments to make Replenish really worth it. Hanna, Ship's, Navigator is a good mana-sink and will get your artifacts and enchantments back, but her effect is slow (the card goes to your hand.. well, for me that's slow... >_>) and she's fragile as a creature. She goes nicely with Sun Titan, however, in case she does die.
You also need a win-con. I realize you know this... >_<; Is there one you're thinking of already? If not, have you thought about March of the Machines? If you included Omniscience (which you should, since you've got Rector in there), Opalescence would be great as well. Opalescence would open up a lot of doorways into far more degenerate stuff, though. (Opalescence + Enchanted Evening kills ALL the lands...) It's up to you.
Hey, so I built this deck on MTGO (some slight differences due to budget constraints, I'll get there... eventually).
First I'd like to say thanks for doing this, I always wanted to play GAAIV, but I honestly didn't know where to start, there were just so many ways this deck could go, and given that I love enchantments (I play bant pants in paper, yeah, I'm THAT guy) this seemed like the most appropriate list.
One issue I've been having, is that I really would like a little more card draw beyond Rhystic Study, and given that I'm not infiniting off Time Stretch/Walk/etc. Temporal Mastery has been kind of meh for me (even more so when I can't miracle it) Also been testing out Thassa and honestly, the Scry is great, especially if she gets out early, tried Medomai, doesn't do enough quickly enough, I was thinking of trying either Curse of the Swine or Daxos of Meletis, wanted to get some thoughts of others (obviously I will playtest both myself as well).
For the kill, the deck don't need one at all, he locks or he doesn't but a "kill- card" will only make it less consistant I guess.
I already have Planewalkers, Sun titan and Sphinx as potential kill who are good with the alpha plan.
I really don't need more that do only this, maybe i forget some good kill that are not creature and work with the plan.
I do agree with High Market shenanigans but for only 2 creatures, I don't think he deserve his place, i could attack with them as long as anyone don't kill them
Hanna is pretty slow but a need for that kind of deck. But I want to add Trinket mage who is very excellent with all the 0 and 1 ccm artefact I have. What you think about ?
I don't play Catastrophe, Ravages of war, Armagueddon and Cataclymse, maybe I should, I have to make more test to see when i could and when i would have do that for the win and not just to "hard lock" the table.
I probably wouldn't rely on creatures to win, given how few of them you're running. I don't know your meta, but mine is full of answers to creatures. I've locked people out and slowly killed them with a Frost Titan before, so it's a possible win-con. However, a versatile deck should have AT LEAST one back-up win-con.
I think you're on the right track when you say your win-con shouldn't dilute the power of the deck. That's very true, and it's why you ought to choose one that already fits with what you're deck has in it or is doing. It shouldn't be a random card that has no synergy. I'll leave you to figure out what you're gonna do, though.
One last plug for High Market: it also prevents your creatures (like your general) from being copied or stolen. It's usually worth a spot in most decks for that reason alone..
Hey, so I built this deck on MTGO (some slight differences due to budget constraints, I'll get there... eventually).
First I'd like to say thanks for doing this, I always wanted to play GAAIV, but I honestly didn't know where to start, there were just so many ways this deck could go, and given that I love enchantments (I play bant pants in paper, yeah, I'm THAT guy) this seemed like the most appropriate list.
One issue I've been having, is that I really would like a little more card draw beyond Rhystic Study, and given that I'm not infiniting off Time Stretch/Walk/etc. Temporal Mastery has been kind of meh for me (even more so when I can't miracle it) Also been testing out Thassa and honestly, the Scry is great, especially if she gets out early, tried Medomai, doesn't do enough quickly enough, I was thinking of trying either Curse of the Swine or Daxos of Meletis, wanted to get some thoughts of others (obviously I will playtest both myself as well).
Cheers and keep up the good work
Thanks!
GAA4 is a pretty versatile general, though most people play him as a s/tax general because he's got a built-in taxation system. (Plus he lowers the cost of your own spells.) My friend who played GAA4 before I did made it a dedicated combo deck, searching for the Dovescape + Guile combo fairly consistently. When I started this deck, I didn't want to be sooooooo mean, but that meant I was playing a really watered-down control deck. And half-hearted decks don't stand a chance.
Card advantage and card quality are, indeed, VERY important. So, I can definitely see replacing Temporal Mastery with Thassa, God of the Sea. In fact, based on your testing, I'll probably do just that. The card advantage of the deck is fairly average, though it does have some nifty draw spells, if I do say so myself. Understandably, draw spells, as one-shot uses, are rather weak compared to repeatable effects.
I'm still on the fence about Curse of Swine. White exile/tuck removal is just SO efficient, and Cyclonic Rift is just damn handy. I can definitely see the appeal of having one card that can exile multiple creatures in one go, though.
Keep us updated on your testing! I'm interested to know how the Theros cards do.
Edit/Update: I've nixed Temporal Mastery in favour of Thassa, God of the Sea. For a detailed explanation, please see the Change Log. Thanks goes to TrojanMagpie for the testing and suggestion!
Also, I'll be adding a BNG set review in the coming week!
Thanks for all the great work with the deck so far. It is a relief to see someone keep up with their deck list even after new sets come out, not too many people do that. I am working, on a budget, to slowly build this deck so it will be fun to see how it goes with each card that i add. Keep up the good work and I look forward to see your thoughts on the BNG potential add ins
Glad to see you like the Thassa change, I found a solution to the card draw issue I had, I replaced Memory Lapse (easily the weakest counterspell out of the suite) with Strategic Planing, it hits a better balance for me, although I am considering Sphinx's Revelation, with GAA4 out it's 2 free life and more importantly 2 free cards. Also I put in an Aurgury Adept and it's like a mini Sphinx's Rev. I think I cut Silence for it (poor man's Orim's Chant).
I'm honestly wetting myself at the prospect of an instant speed wrath in Fated Retribution *drool*, probably might drop Yosei for. I think Dawn to Dusk does enough to consider dropping Disenchant for it. Obvious auto include is Temple of Enlightenment.
Strongly considering Silent Sentinel as well.
Although, the Heroes' Podium really makes me want to build a Sisay deck too. That and Karametra, hold on while I lose all self control and bankrupt myself buying magic cards.
GAA4 reduces the cost of X in spells like Sphinx's Revelation, so it is like getting 2 free life/cards from it, like originally mentioned. For Stroke of Genius, you can think of it like this: GAA4 reduces either the 2 or the X part of the cost.
Either way, I'm not a fan of Sphinx's Revelation because, for the way I play this deck anyways, it isn't about splashy plays and tapping out for a bunch of cards. I'd do it if I had Omniscience and some protection out, but that's pretty conditional. If you have a Sphinx's Revelation sitting around that you wanna toss in, go ahead. I'm not about to sit back from the "comfort" of my tiny studio apartment and tell you how to build *your* deck. (I will, however, give advice and opinions... beware! XD)
I'll get to Dawn to Dusk and Silent Sentinel in my upcoming BNG review. I definitely have opinions about these cards. They've certainly piqued my interest.
For the time being, just always remember to make the deck you want and are happy with!
Also, I'll be editing the OP clean up some grammar and spelling errors... sometimes, I can't believe I wrote what I wrote, given how much time I spent on it >_<; Besides spelling/grammar errors (I'll catch them all, trust me), if there are parts you'd like clarified or explained more clearly, please let me know! I'll make sure to work on it.
Just looking at WU, X, and lands. Not bothering to discuss cards that can't be used in WU (so basically any card with non-WU mana symbols as activation costs, etc.) Here we go!
White
Acolyte's Reward: It's good in a Gisela deck, or just Boros in general. Works well with Heroic, obviously. I don't see damage prevention working too well in GAA4, though.
Akroan Skyguard: Ehm... no. It's fine for a weenie deck, though. And Standard perhaps. A bomb in Limited with how much targeting is in the Theros block so far.
Archetype of Courage: Again, good for weenies and such. Great in Boros weenies with equipment, I dare say. GAA4 just doesn't focus on attacking too much, so I don't see its use here.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: An excellent general in himself. Run a bunch of anthems and profit. As part of the 99, he's too susceptible to board wipes, since he's harder to recover from the GY unless you have a recursion strategy already set up.
Dawn to Dusk: Now this is a card worth thinking about. Pros: it can be recursion AND destruction. Cons: sorcery-speed, CMC4 (not too bad if GAA4 is out, though), only gets enchantments. Usually enchantment kill is paired with artifact kill, so there's more versatility in a single card in terms of what you can destroy. The versatility here is of your action to destroy/recur. Given how loaded this deck is with pillowfort enchantments, it's pretty tempting, but I prefer versatility in the permanent types rather than the action. Especially since artifacts are pretty major in my GAA4 deck for shutting down opponents' mana. The sorcery-speed hurts, too. HOWEVER! If you're running a variation of this deck that doesn't mind the speed (i.e., if you have Leyeline of Anticipation or other flash-enablers), or if you've put in more enchantments, Dawn to Dusk is pretty great. It also has some sweet art!
Eidolon of Countless Battles: I've learned to avoid running cards that depend too much on the board state. Even when you have a pretty good handle on locking down opponents, one well-timed (and probably Boseijued board wipe will ruin everything. And the Eidolon is just not worth recurring if you don't have an enormous enchantment-board presence, really.
Elite Skirmisher: I don't think the creatures of this set will be doing too much for GAA4... Heroic really requires you to build around it too much, since you have to put in so many spells that target your own creatures.
Ephara's Radiance: Life gain? No thanks; just stabilize at 5 life and laugh at everyone
Excoriate: 4CMC and requires a creature to be tapped already. It's definitely possible to tap creatures in GAA4, but why go trough all that trouble when you have Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile?
Fated Retribution: Excellent card! The timing versatility is great, so if you top-deck it, you get the added bonus of Scry. CMC is a little high. 7, 6 if GAA4 is out... but then, why would you want to kill your general? The board state would have to be pretty bad for you to sacrifice him that way. So, assuming you pay 7 for it and set up your next draw a bit, you're probably gonna be tapped out, or nearly so. Playing with this card will require a lot more tactical thought than it appears. I'll give it a try, though. (Which then creates the problem of what to replace it for. Any suggestions?)
Ghostblade Eidolon: There's worse Auras out there, but I still don't think this works for control decks.
Glimpse of the Sun God: Tapping people's stuff is what Yosei and Cryptic are for. And x spells like this won't handle swarms unless you have a ridiculous amount of mana available.
God-Favored General: How can he be a general if he's not even legendary?! Kidding aside, cards like this make me want to build a mono-W Soldier tribal deck. Between this and Brimaz, soldiers are gettin' some lovin'!
Great Hart: No room for high-costed vanilla creatures here!
Griffin Dreamfinder: Excellent in an enchantment-heavy blink deck, like Roon. I'm a huge fan of Replenish, though, which is pretty easily tutorable.
Hero of Irohas: If only it were ALL enchantments! He feeds the auras that he'll put on himself (assumedly Bestow creatures, so a board wipe wouldn't hurt as bad), but he'd be better in a weenie deck, no? Man, I'm realizing this set is great for White Weenie Standard...
Hold at Bay: Again, good with Heroic, but targeted prevent damage spells are pretty worthless in EDH, even if you target yourself. And it's only 7 damage, so if they're swinging lethal for the fences, you're still ****ed.
Loyal Pegasus: eeeh. The conditional attack/block is pretty bad..
Mortal's Ardor: Works with creature decks, I guess. It's effect is still a little too small to make a difference in EDH, though.
Oreskos Sun Guide: Probably not terrible in Orolo, but there's still better options for lifegain.dec.
Ornitharch: Tribute isn't bad, per se, but this is better for token decks that can profit from the birds. Skullclamp, anyone? Heck, Ashnod's Alter is fine.
Plea for Guidance: Not a bad tutor, but it does cost a lot, even with GAA4 on the 'field. Assuming he is, spending 5 for a tutor means you'll have to get 2CMC enchantments (they'll cost 1 to drop) if you plan on saving any mana for counters/removal. (Even if you aren't, it's still probably better to bluff... A tapped-out GAA4 deck isn't nearly as threatening, but I guess that's why I added Pact of Negation a few months back). Use at your discretion.
Revoke Existence: I've had this conversation (here, on the forums) before. The fact that it can't go on the Stick and is sorcery-speed is a huge disadvantage. If you've got Disenchant on the Stick, you'll always be able to kill their enchantment/artifact threat anyways... unless it's a god.... hmm. Dilemma, dilemma. Well, there's other answers for gods in GAA4, I suppose.
Silent Sentinel: With the amount of enchantments in this deck (and inevitable enchantment wipes from a savvy meta), this is a pretty nifty card. It's an excellent finisher. The thing I see with it, however, is that by the time it's attacking (and you're getting back enchantments), you've already got the board fairly locked down. Bringing enchantments back is almost a little too "win-more." Giving it haste is another problem. If you need to bring enchantments back ASAP, I'd rather rely on Replenish, which gets them all in one go and can be tutored for with Mystical Tutor. And costs less... Still, if you're meta keeps killing your stuff, this would be a great addition.
Spirit of the Labyrinth: Not bad in certain metas. If you've got a Consecrated Sphinx out, this can only hurt you. Plus, GAA4 needs what few draw-spells he has. Still, this hoses Nekusar and hand-cycle strategies; effectively kills Niv-Mizzet 1.0; etc. If your meta is rife with Blue card-advantage shenanigans, go ahead and run this.
Sunbond: It's a lot like that M14 angel... whatzitcalled. Anyways, it's high-CMC for just too little reward.
Vanguard of Brimaz: Again, excellent in weenie decks. Now, I REALLY want to make that Soldier tribal!
Blue
Aerie Worshipers: I just don't think it's right for this deck. GAA4 likes to control without relying too heavily on creatures. The other card types tend to be a little harder to remove. And tokens don't fit in at all...
Arbiter of the Ideal: It looks good on paper, but in GAA4, s/he has to stick around at least 2 turns: 1 turn to attack (the tap), 1 turn for Untap Step. This will probably end up in my Talrand deck, since it's got both Opposition and Coastal Piracy, which take advantage of tapping untapped creatures and attacking.
Archetype of Imagination: I would almost prefer to have Wonder in the deck, since tossing a card in the GY (blocking/wiping/killing) is just dandy. This HAS to stay on the field to have an effect.
Crypsis: These single-target spells work great with Heroic but not old-school control.
Deepwater Hypnotist: This.. is useless. Probably fine in Limited, but not in EDH.
Divination: Better draw spells exist. This can't hold a candle to the power that old-school draw spells have. Yes, I know it's been reprinted a gazillion times, so it's "old." But really, it's just ho-hum. Nifty new art, though.
Evanescent Intellect: GAA4 has better things to do than mill. GAA4 likes to suffocate opponents with his imposing taxes, not slowly chip away at a 99-card library. (Nothing against mill EDH decks. Some are fantastic! Evanescent Intellect simply isn't right in GAA4.)
Fated Infatuation: Again, a card that would go in Talrand (who steals things from opponents as he makes Drakes that will eventually draw cards...). Copy shenanigans would dilute the control power of GAA4, especially since you have to go out of your way to steal a creature from an opponent first (assuming you want their creatures), or you have to have creatures of your own out (and there aren't that many in this deck). Either way, Fated Infatuation doesn't benefit from GAA4's cost reduction... :/
Flitterstep Eidolon: Why is the Bestow cost on this thing so high?! (/rhetorical question... don't answer that XD)
Meletis Astronomer: This card is too "build-around-me!" It needs a deck with lots of enchantments and then lots of spells to target it (which, granted, can be those very enchantments). Still, it needs too much support from the build of the deck. Probably fine in Limited, though.
Mindreaver: Unless you're in a boring meta that uses the same cards over and over in different decks, this card is limited in its use, at best. And the mill thing really just works better with smaller decks, unless you're doing some wholesale milling with Lazav and the Aberration, or something.
Nyxborn Triton: If there's such thing as a vanilla Bestow creature/enchantment, this is it.. T_T
Oracle's Insight: Might be worth running in SOME deck if it wasn't such a high-CMC card. Yes, 4 (or 3) is a lot for what it does.
Perplexing Chimera: An interesting rattlesnake, actually. Clearly, it's a preemptive strike against bombs. That's really good... What concerns me a little is playing against Zedruu or chaos decks with spells/permanents' effects that don't care who the controller is. Also, it can be used against you, since the Chimera will go to your opponent. And I don't think you can sac it to High Market in response to its own trigger because the stack would look like this: [opponent's spell] --> [chimera trigger] --> [sac activation]::> [chimera dies] --> [chimera exchange] --> X because chimera isn't there to be exchanged... If you know some fancy stack tricks to get around the opponent gaining control of the Chimera, let me know. I like knowing how to abuse the stack ;3
Retraction Helix: Clearly meant to work with Heroic... not bad, of course. Just not right for GAA4.
Siren of the Fanged Coast: Gilded Drake is far better, even if it gives your opponents a 3/3 flier. At least it doesn't give your opponents a choice
Sphinx's Disciple: Inspired... same problem with the other Inspired creatures: has to stick around, which is not guaranteed.
Stratus Walk: An interesting effect, but it would dilute the control power of GAA4.
Sudden Storm: Not a bad card, it just costs too much, and it's effect is a little weak in EDH. Plus, there's a lot of shroud and hexproof stuff around. Not all that impressive.
Thassa's Rebuff: Would be better in a mono-U deck. We like hard counters here.
Tromokratis: Still probably better off in a Lorthos deck as one of the 99.
Vortex Elemental: Any attack triggers (like Annihilator) still happen, so it's not really that great.
Ephara's Enlightenment: Definitely a good card for creature-heavy builds. Reusable draw and puts counters on things. Mass wipe/bounce effects still hurt, though.
Gorgon's Head: In spite of what the L'Oreal commercials say, it's not worth it.
Hero's Podium: Captain Sisay loves this card. There are simply too few legendaries in GAA4 (I don't think there are any besides the general, himself) to make this useful.
Siren Song Lyre: Both the CMC and equip costs are too high for what it does... and tapping is a little weak, anyways.
Lands
Tample of Enlightenment: I don't like that it enters the battlefield tapped... At least Halimar Depths lets you see the top 3 and rearrange them. Scry 1 is a little myopic (hahaha!).
So there we have it. I went through the entire set, and, yes, I know that most cards aren't viable for EDH. There are a few for consideration, though. Dawn to Dusk, Silent Sentinel, Fated Retribution, Plea for Guidance, etc. are great cards. I don't think I'd make room for anything besides Fated Retribution, though. I know my meta pretty well, and I know that the answers I have already are versatile enough to handle it. Fated Retribution adds another layer to the versatility of GAA4's board-wipe repertoire, which is why I'm intrigued. The rest are excellent, but I'm not convinced they'd cut it in a competitive meta.
Please let me know your thoughts, though! Everyone's experiences differ, which is why the Internet is great for sharing them. If you've played with any of the new set in your EDH playgroup, I'd love to hear how they fared.
Yes, he's worth it. You've covered all the main reasons he's great: cheap/efficient, surprise, chump blocker, etc. The flash-backed spell also costs 1 less with GAA4 out, which is stupid-good if you don't have a lot of mana open or you're trying to flip Erayo. And Snapcaster isn't gonna drop in price; he's just too powerful. He might (might) not rise in cost, but I just don't see him dropping below ~$20. Even if you take apart GAA4 to make another Blue deck, you'll surely find a use for good ole' Snappy... he's pretty much a staple for spell-based Blue decks. OK, who am I kidding? ANY Blue deck can use him effectively. If you don't think you can get him at a good price where you are, try eBay or other online (reputable!) retailers who will ship internationally at a low cost. Another thing I've found you can do with eBay is, if you find someone who's selling something near where you live, ask the seller to meet and exchange in person (for God's sake, do it in a public, safe place!... like an LGS or something) to save on shipping costs. It saves him/her an annoying trip to the post office and it saves you some money on shipping/handling.
For the time being, Archaeomancer could work as a substitute, but if you're looking for a good draw spell:
Lat-Nam's Legacy (good for tossing away combo pieces or other cards you don't need immediately) Telling Time (good for drawing as well as setting up your next draw) Muddle the Mixture (not exactly "draw", but it does work as a fantastic tutor. It also doubles as a non-hard counter... well, I guess that's actually it's first ability :P) Remand (doesn't always work if they have enough mana to re-cast, though a well-timed Remand always brings a smile to my face... and it IS cheap [2, 1 with GAA4] and replaces itself in the hand. Plus, it's in the new Duel Deck: Jace vs. Vraska, so if you were gonna pick that up anyways, there's even more incentive to do so now)
Anyways, these are all cards that are cheap and Stick-able, should you choose to go in that direction. Also, these are pretty much all cantrips because true "draw spells" are overcosted and slow (see: Divination, 2 cards for 3 mana... and sorcery-speed! XD)
Either are fairly good for replacing Cryptic Command, which has gotten far more expensive in spite of being repinted... wtf, right? I'd lean towards Dismiss, myself, because I use Cryptic to counter and draw usually (unless there's a problem card that needs bouncing, or a battlefield of tokens worth tapping). Also, it's cheaper (4, 3 with GAA4), making it roughly the same cost as a normal counter.
I can't speculate about Cryptic, since I don't really know how widely it's being used or in what formats specifically... though I'd wager Modern has a lot to do with it >_> (UB Faeries is a thing again now that Bitterblossom isn't banned). Anyways, with the price it is now, I wouldn't go for it. I have no idea if it's going to keep it's value, drop, rise, whatever. Sure, it's probably the most versatile Blue spell in existence, making it incredibly powerful, but ultimately it can be replaced with other spells that do roughly the same thing, like Dismiss as you mentioned. Unless you were dead-set on optimizing this deck, I'd hold off until I had a better understanding of what's driving the price of Cryptic Command, and I'd want to know what the people in that/those formats think of the possibility of it getting reprinted again, or whatever.
EDIT: I just re-read your post about Cryptic being roughly the same price as Snapcaster. If so, snatch up that card! Cryptic is right around $50 on tcgplayer.com, so if it's less than that (~$25-30), it's probably worth it.
I have been play GAA4 deck for a long time it is great to see a primier this has been giving me a lot of great ideas. I have slowly of the course of months been going towards an enchantment heavy build but I also wanted to put up my own primary win condition. I have been making infinite bird tokens with dovescape and Guile doevescape keeps countering your spell and guile lets you cast it as many times as you would like for free the great thing about this if you play dovescape first it protects guile when you play him then I just cast a spell and bang next turn everyone going down. I wanted to put this forward and see what everyone thought?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
My friend who built the Arbiter before I did ran the Dovescape + Guile combo as his main win-con, too. It's effective, let me say that... I just really like the Enchanted Evening + Cleansing Meditation combo better. Personal taste, I guess.
It's funny, actually. Cleansing Meditation, that is. I was playing a 5-person game once with a Zedruu enchantment-heavy deck. I tutored up Cleansing Meditation because I had Enchanted Evening in hand. Zedruu-guy saw it coming and was trying to convince the other Blue player (Azami) to counter, but Azami-player thought I was just gonna wipe Zedruu's enchantments off the 'field. On my turn, I comboed off (with counter-back-up)! Moral of the story: Cleansing Meditation can look like just another piece of removal; it's inconspicuous, so it'll slide under the radar until people know what's up!
So I bet it runs smooth as silk Would you mind sharing your list? I'd like to draw ideas
Sure, I will share… I have to admit I am going to incorporate a great many of your ideas into my deck to shake it up some. Smooth as silk is I would say is an overstatement It does run decent (as long as I play lots of politics) and after reading the suggestions here there are some things I need to work in but here is my list and I like moving more towards enchantments there seems to be less hate in my area for them. The two main themes of what I have built is drawing and making attacking me difficult or giving me card advantage. In my local meta game a life gain/life loss deck is big thus the angel and Emperion
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
I definitely know the advantage it creates. It's one of those cards that "should be" run with Land Tax no matter what. I do it for two reasons. 1) I don't have one and I just can't bring myself to buy one. Granted, I've got a lot of cards that are quite expensive, but... 2) I don't know what I'd cut for it. Perhaps Gideon Jura or something, but every time I'm about to pull Gideon out, I think of how useful he's been in the past and end up leaving him in.
I guess these aren't really "good reasons" to not run Scroll Rack, but I've found I can win without it, too. :/
@JediSolo: I like your deck, although it's very different to mine. If you like to use tunnel vision, you could also run hinder, spell crumple and spin into myth, which are great cards on their own and along with condemn, enable a "milling kill" plan B: put a countered card or a creature in the bottom of their deck, play tunnel vision, wait two turns and win. Or just win the next turn if you push it with jace beleren's first ability. Watch out for Eldrazis, though, since they'll reshuffle their graveyard into their library.
Thank you for the feedback, I had mostly been using Tunnel Vision as a tutor wht my own Eldrazi to prevent milling and had not even thought of the mill apsect, but i do like it since it gives me another win condition. Right now I am working on a hybrid list between our decks. I had been leaning towarda a more heavy enchantment deck in my evolution since my play group runs a deck that uses the sanguine bond, Exquisite Blood aloong with the extort mechanic. As a result you have seen where I run Platinum Emperion and Platinum Angel and protecting them with Spiritual Asylum to combat this. I just added the Aura Thief, Academy rector, Enchanged evening, Greater Auromancy combo's. This has really worked well fishbowling... I still maintain my old combo and a lot of my search/tutor FX but the addition of this has made me less of a one trick pony. Thanks for the great feedback I will post a new decklist soon and hope for more feed back. I am quetsioning with the new path of the deck if Parallel Thoughts might be a little to dangerous for me
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
I've found Gideon Jura to be pretty versatile. He can kill a tapped creature (and it's not too hard to tap creatures here), he can absorb some attacks, or he can beat face. I mean, I've killed someone with Gideon before. Otherwise, he's usually buying me a turn (with his +2) until I can find a board wipe or mass tap/removal. And that's major when you're facing a table of creatures gunning for you...
The only thing I find with him is that he's a little expensive to drop and planeswalkers always require good timing if you want them to stay alive. (Granted, I don't EXPECT my 'walkers to stay alive, but it's always nice when they do.)
If I were really desperate for card advantage from Scroll Rack, I'd look at taking out something else, but I have no idea what I would take out, which gets us back to the original problem
Oh, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a house. She kills token armies and wizards/elves like nobody's business. And she pumps up your stuff if/when you get other creatures out. It's like she's removal and an anthem all at once!
Costs 5 (4 with GAA4) for a situational deterrent. No thanks. At least Ghostly Prison/Propaganda will always tax and can each be recurred with Sun Titan.
The way you don't get screwed by Winter Orb is by dropping it at the right time and budgeting management. It's very hard to use correctly in UW (without the random-as-hell Sword of Feast and Famine), but if you can drop it at the right time, you'll be fine.
So what is the right time? Either early game (t2-3), or late game when opponents have tapped out (or mostly tapped out). The best way to play it is with a Sol Ring and then pass turn. Sol Ring because it will untapped (it's not a land!), and pass turn so you can counter/remove stuff (you should have been holding onto counters...).
Anyways, if you drop it early game, it becomes a bottle-neck that slows the game down to the point where No one wantsit gone because of how much mana everyone would then have access to. In that case, it's a very strategic piece.
Thanks, what are your thoughts on something like Noetic Scales? Decks with big creatures tend to hold less cards in hand so it would really hurt them and it wouldn't really hurt us at all.
OK so I have been working on this deck quite a lot lately and I have some ideas. Intuition seems like it should be a card that finds it's way into the deck. With intuition and replenish in hand you basically go grab a pile of three of your best enchantments and then get to return all of them with replenish also another tutor that would be good is idyllic tutor not as good as enlightened tutor but still helps go get that missing piece. Also with the prison you have set up using winter orb I think more mana rocks should be exploited within the deck. In edh most people land mana rocks early and if you only have a sol ring other people are probably going to be ahead of you. Thran dynamo, gilded lotus, and grim monolith+ power artifact seem good enough. It would be easy to go get PA with the extra tutors mentioned and infinite colorless would be good going into a winter orb.
Sorry, my internet has been on the fritz for a few days, so I haven't been able to connect until now.
Anyways, it all depends on how combo you're gonna go with GAA4. You can search and sculpt (your hand) for awhile, but playing non-removal spells has its drawbacks. First, you're diluting the concentration of your removal, which - let's face it - you'll need. Second, you're not developing board position, which is critical.
Great card, don't get me wrong. But it's a trick that can backfire pretty easily and, given the circumstances you're proposing, too conditional. It's hard enough to get one particular card in hand, even with tutors/search, so getting TWO particular cards - in this case Intuition and Replenish - in hand at the right time is even more difficult/tutor intensive. (Keep in mind, if you're tutoring for Intuition-Replenish combo, you're not searching for other win-cons or answers...) Let's say you DO have these in hand and use Intuition to find your best enchantments (likely Omniscience and some other things). Any smart opponent would select Omniscience to go to your hand (even if they know it's a rattlesnake), so you'd have to hard-cast it. Sure, you'll get two (and probably more) very powerful other enchantments to recur with Replenish, but I still have reservations about the whole thing. Mostly, as I mentioned before, it requires a lot of hand-sculpting. This also makes the deck/your hand even more vulnerable to chaos effects and discard/handcycling.
I had it in the deck, but it was too slow. Sorcery-speed; 3CMC (2 with GAA4); though the card does go to hand. It was only really effective late-game, and (though I can usually withstand the early- and mid-game), realistically, there's never a guarantee you'll make it to late-game.
Re: Mana Rocks
I'll consider adding perhaps one, but I'm not (personally) going all-in for a Power Artifact combo for infinite-mana. It's too easy, and about half of my playgroup does infinite combos anyways... even I use them (in another deck, though ) Thran Dynamo would probably be the only one I'd consider besides Talisman of Progress. Again, not because mana rocks are bad (they're GRRRREAT!), but because I don't feel it necessary to build the entire deck around one card (Winter Orb) being out.
Again, if this is how you want your GAA4 deck to work, go for it!
Is is possible to do a budget version of this deck, but say that my criteria was only cards equal or under $10 unless a card is core/must-have to the deck?
Umm.. kinda. You just can't expect the same power-level.
The main key will be looking at the "Decklist by Card Function" section after determining what you can and can't afford. For example, Gilded Drake is still probably about $20 or more, and is listed under "spot removal." So, you don't need to replace it with another card that steals creatures (they're all too high-CMC anyways) but rather with another spot removal card (hopefully in the 2-CMC range... Revoke Existence, perhaps?). Same thing with "Denial", "Prison", "Beaters/Enforcers", etc. The exact function (theft, exile, tap, etc.) doesn't have to be the same, just the general function (spot removal, counterspell, wrath, etc.). And the closer to the original card's CMC, the better, otherwise the curve will get out of whack
Are there any cards in particular that you're concerned about? I can let you know how necessary they are for the deck or provide recommendations for replacements. There's also a short "Budget cards" list towards the end of the primer.
With your list, Tezzie is indeed a PW you should have. He fetches some damn important things for you, namely artifact-accel. If my list had as heavy an artifact dependence as yours (certainly not a bad thing!), then I'd definitely make room for him. As it is, though, (and I've had this discussion before a few pages back), Tezzeret, the Seeker doesn't work too well.
One thing you should be careful of, however, is feeding your opponents' GYs. You're not running enough counter-magic to stop 1) GY shenanigans, and 2) board wipes. One Bane of Progress, Akroma's Vengeance, or even Nevinyrral's Disk and your board state is toast. You can use Replenish or Open the Vaults to get around this, but Open the Vaults is dangerous because it's a symmetrical effect that gives your opponents their stuff back. And you're not running enough enchantments to make Replenish really worth it. Hanna, Ship's, Navigator is a good mana-sink and will get your artifacts and enchantments back, but her effect is slow (the card goes to your hand.. well, for me that's slow... >_>) and she's fragile as a creature. She goes nicely with Sun Titan, however, in case she does die.
Also, since you're running both Academy Rector and False Prophet, you might want to consider adding in High Market so you can "activate" them at will.
You also need a win-con. I realize you know this... >_<; Is there one you're thinking of already? If not, have you thought about March of the Machines? If you included Omniscience (which you should, since you've got Rector in there), Opalescence would be great as well. Opalescence would open up a lot of doorways into far more degenerate stuff, though. (Opalescence + Enchanted Evening kills ALL the lands...) It's up to you.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
First I'd like to say thanks for doing this, I always wanted to play GAAIV, but I honestly didn't know where to start, there were just so many ways this deck could go, and given that I love enchantments (I play bant pants in paper, yeah, I'm THAT guy) this seemed like the most appropriate list.
One issue I've been having, is that I really would like a little more card draw beyond Rhystic Study, and given that I'm not infiniting off Time Stretch/Walk/etc. Temporal Mastery has been kind of meh for me (even more so when I can't miracle it) Also been testing out Thassa and honestly, the Scry is great, especially if she gets out early, tried Medomai, doesn't do enough quickly enough, I was thinking of trying either Curse of the Swine or Daxos of Meletis, wanted to get some thoughts of others (obviously I will playtest both myself as well).
Cheers and keep up the good work
I probably wouldn't rely on creatures to win, given how few of them you're running. I don't know your meta, but mine is full of answers to creatures. I've locked people out and slowly killed them with a Frost Titan before, so it's a possible win-con. However, a versatile deck should have AT LEAST one back-up win-con.
I think you're on the right track when you say your win-con shouldn't dilute the power of the deck. That's very true, and it's why you ought to choose one that already fits with what you're deck has in it or is doing. It shouldn't be a random card that has no synergy. I'll leave you to figure out what you're gonna do, though.
One last plug for High Market: it also prevents your creatures (like your general) from being copied or stolen. It's usually worth a spot in most decks for that reason alone..
Thanks!
GAA4 is a pretty versatile general, though most people play him as a s/tax general because he's got a built-in taxation system. (Plus he lowers the cost of your own spells.) My friend who played GAA4 before I did made it a dedicated combo deck, searching for the Dovescape + Guile combo fairly consistently. When I started this deck, I didn't want to be sooooooo mean, but that meant I was playing a really watered-down control deck. And half-hearted decks don't stand a chance.
Card advantage and card quality are, indeed, VERY important. So, I can definitely see replacing Temporal Mastery with Thassa, God of the Sea. In fact, based on your testing, I'll probably do just that. The card advantage of the deck is fairly average, though it does have some nifty draw spells, if I do say so myself. Understandably, draw spells, as one-shot uses, are rather weak compared to repeatable effects.
I'm still on the fence about Curse of Swine. White exile/tuck removal is just SO efficient, and Cyclonic Rift is just damn handy. I can definitely see the appeal of having one card that can exile multiple creatures in one go, though.
Keep us updated on your testing! I'm interested to know how the Theros cards do.
Edit/Update: I've nixed Temporal Mastery in favour of Thassa, God of the Sea. For a detailed explanation, please see the Change Log. Thanks goes to TrojanMagpie for the testing and suggestion!
Also, I'll be adding a BNG set review in the coming week!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
I'm honestly wetting myself at the prospect of an instant speed wrath in Fated Retribution *drool*, probably might drop Yosei for. I think Dawn to Dusk does enough to consider dropping Disenchant for it. Obvious auto include is Temple of Enlightenment.
Strongly considering Silent Sentinel as well.
Although, the Heroes' Podium really makes me want to build a Sisay deck too. That and Karametra, hold on while I lose all self control and bankrupt myself buying magic cards.
Either way, I'm not a fan of Sphinx's Revelation because, for the way I play this deck anyways, it isn't about splashy plays and tapping out for a bunch of cards. I'd do it if I had Omniscience and some protection out, but that's pretty conditional. If you have a Sphinx's Revelation sitting around that you wanna toss in, go ahead. I'm not about to sit back from the "comfort" of my tiny studio apartment and tell you how to build *your* deck. (I will, however, give advice and opinions... beware! XD)
I'll get to Dawn to Dusk and Silent Sentinel in my upcoming BNG review. I definitely have opinions about these cards. They've certainly piqued my interest.
For the time being, just always remember to make the deck you want and are happy with!
Also, I'll be editing the OP clean up some grammar and spelling errors... sometimes, I can't believe I wrote what I wrote, given how much time I spent on it >_<; Besides spelling/grammar errors (I'll catch them all, trust me), if there are parts you'd like clarified or explained more clearly, please let me know! I'll make sure to work on it.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Just looking at WU, X, and lands. Not bothering to discuss cards that can't be used in WU (so basically any card with non-WU mana symbols as activation costs, etc.) Here we go!
White
Acolyte's Reward: It's good in a Gisela deck, or just Boros in general. Works well with Heroic, obviously. I don't see damage prevention working too well in GAA4, though.
Akroan Skyguard: Ehm... no. It's fine for a weenie deck, though. And Standard perhaps. A bomb in Limited with how much targeting is in the Theros block so far.
Archetype of Courage: Again, good for weenies and such. Great in Boros weenies with equipment, I dare say. GAA4 just doesn't focus on attacking too much, so I don't see its use here.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: An excellent general in himself. Run a bunch of anthems and profit. As part of the 99, he's too susceptible to board wipes, since he's harder to recover from the GY unless you have a recursion strategy already set up.
Dawn to Dusk: Now this is a card worth thinking about. Pros: it can be recursion AND destruction. Cons: sorcery-speed, CMC4 (not too bad if GAA4 is out, though), only gets enchantments. Usually enchantment kill is paired with artifact kill, so there's more versatility in a single card in terms of what you can destroy. The versatility here is of your action to destroy/recur. Given how loaded this deck is with pillowfort enchantments, it's pretty tempting, but I prefer versatility in the permanent types rather than the action. Especially since artifacts are pretty major in my GAA4 deck for shutting down opponents' mana. The sorcery-speed hurts, too. HOWEVER! If you're running a variation of this deck that doesn't mind the speed (i.e., if you have Leyeline of Anticipation or other flash-enablers), or if you've put in more enchantments, Dawn to Dusk is pretty great. It also has some sweet art!
Eidolon of Countless Battles: I've learned to avoid running cards that depend too much on the board state. Even when you have a pretty good handle on locking down opponents, one well-timed (and probably Boseijued board wipe will ruin everything. And the Eidolon is just not worth recurring if you don't have an enormous enchantment-board presence, really.
Elite Skirmisher: I don't think the creatures of this set will be doing too much for GAA4... Heroic really requires you to build around it too much, since you have to put in so many spells that target your own creatures.
Ephara's Radiance: Life gain? No thanks; just stabilize at 5 life and laugh at everyone
Excoriate: 4CMC and requires a creature to be tapped already. It's definitely possible to tap creatures in GAA4, but why go trough all that trouble when you have Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile?
Fated Retribution: Excellent card! The timing versatility is great, so if you top-deck it, you get the added bonus of Scry. CMC is a little high. 7, 6 if GAA4 is out... but then, why would you want to kill your general? The board state would have to be pretty bad for you to sacrifice him that way. So, assuming you pay 7 for it and set up your next draw a bit, you're probably gonna be tapped out, or nearly so. Playing with this card will require a lot more tactical thought than it appears. I'll give it a try, though. (Which then creates the problem of what to replace it for. Any suggestions?)
Ghostblade Eidolon: There's worse Auras out there, but I still don't think this works for control decks.
Glimpse of the Sun God: Tapping people's stuff is what Yosei and Cryptic are for. And x spells like this won't handle swarms unless you have a ridiculous amount of mana available.
God-Favored General: How can he be a general if he's not even legendary?!
Great Hart: No room for high-costed vanilla creatures here!
Griffin Dreamfinder: Excellent in an enchantment-heavy blink deck, like Roon. I'm a huge fan of Replenish, though, which is pretty easily tutorable.
Hero of Irohas: If only it were ALL enchantments! He feeds the auras that he'll put on himself (assumedly Bestow creatures, so a board wipe wouldn't hurt as bad), but he'd be better in a weenie deck, no? Man, I'm realizing this set is great for White Weenie Standard...
Hold at Bay: Again, good with Heroic, but targeted prevent damage spells are pretty worthless in EDH, even if you target yourself. And it's only 7 damage, so if they're swinging lethal for the fences, you're still ****ed.
Loyal Pegasus: eeeh. The conditional attack/block is pretty bad..
Mortal's Ardor: Works with creature decks, I guess. It's effect is still a little too small to make a difference in EDH, though.
Nyxborn Shieldmate: siiiigh. No. Thanks. But, no.
Oreskos Sun Guide: Probably not terrible in Orolo, but there's still better options for lifegain.dec.
Ornitharch: Tribute isn't bad, per se, but this is better for token decks that can profit from the birds. Skullclamp, anyone? Heck, Ashnod's Alter is fine.
Plea for Guidance: Not a bad tutor, but it does cost a lot, even with GAA4 on the 'field. Assuming he is, spending 5 for a tutor means you'll have to get 2CMC enchantments (they'll cost 1 to drop) if you plan on saving any mana for counters/removal. (Even if you aren't, it's still probably better to bluff... A tapped-out GAA4 deck isn't nearly as threatening, but I guess that's why I added Pact of Negation a few months back). Use at your discretion.
Revoke Existence: I've had this conversation (here, on the forums) before. The fact that it can't go on the Stick and is sorcery-speed is a huge disadvantage. If you've got Disenchant on the Stick, you'll always be able to kill their enchantment/artifact threat anyways... unless it's a god.... hmm. Dilemma, dilemma. Well, there's other answers for gods in GAA4, I suppose.
Silent Sentinel: With the amount of enchantments in this deck (and inevitable enchantment wipes from a savvy meta), this is a pretty nifty card. It's an excellent finisher. The thing I see with it, however, is that by the time it's attacking (and you're getting back enchantments), you've already got the board fairly locked down. Bringing enchantments back is almost a little too "win-more." Giving it haste is another problem. If you need to bring enchantments back ASAP, I'd rather rely on Replenish, which gets them all in one go and can be tutored for with Mystical Tutor. And costs less... Still, if you're meta keeps killing your stuff, this would be a great addition.
Spirit of the Labyrinth: Not bad in certain metas. If you've got a Consecrated Sphinx out, this can only hurt you. Plus, GAA4 needs what few draw-spells he has. Still, this hoses Nekusar and hand-cycle strategies; effectively kills Niv-Mizzet 1.0; etc. If your meta is rife with Blue card-advantage shenanigans, go ahead and run this.
Sunbond: It's a lot like that M14 angel... whatzitcalled. Anyways, it's high-CMC for just too little reward.
Vanguard of Brimaz: Again, excellent in weenie decks. Now, I REALLY want to make that Soldier tribal!
Blue
Aerie Worshipers: I just don't think it's right for this deck. GAA4 likes to control without relying too heavily on creatures. The other card types tend to be a little harder to remove. And tokens don't fit in at all...
Arbiter of the Ideal: It looks good on paper, but in GAA4, s/he has to stick around at least 2 turns: 1 turn to attack (the tap), 1 turn for Untap Step. This will probably end up in my Talrand deck, since it's got both Opposition and Coastal Piracy, which take advantage of tapping untapped creatures and attacking.
Archetype of Imagination: I would almost prefer to have Wonder in the deck, since tossing a card in the GY (blocking/wiping/killing) is just dandy. This HAS to stay on the field to have an effect.
Chorus of the Tides: Overcosted and too small an effect.
Crypsis: These single-target spells work great with Heroic but not old-school control.
Deepwater Hypnotist: This.. is useless. Probably fine in Limited, but not in EDH.
Divination: Better draw spells exist. This can't hold a candle to the power that old-school draw spells have. Yes, I know it's been reprinted a gazillion times, so it's "old." But really, it's just ho-hum. Nifty new art, though.
Eternity Snare: An overcosted Pacifism just for a little draw. No thanks.
Evanescent Intellect: GAA4 has better things to do than mill. GAA4 likes to suffocate opponents with his imposing taxes, not slowly chip away at a 99-card library. (Nothing against mill EDH decks. Some are fantastic! Evanescent Intellect simply isn't right in GAA4.)
Fated Infatuation: Again, a card that would go in Talrand (who steals things from opponents as he makes Drakes that will eventually draw cards...). Copy shenanigans would dilute the control power of GAA4, especially since you have to go out of your way to steal a creature from an opponent first (assuming you want their creatures), or you have to have creatures of your own out (and there aren't that many in this deck). Either way, Fated Infatuation doesn't benefit from GAA4's cost reduction... :/
Flitterstep Eidolon: Why is the Bestow cost on this thing so high?! (/rhetorical question... don't answer that XD)
Floodtide Serpent: Maybe for a Lorthos, the Tidemaker Timmy-tastic deck, replete with Ula's Temple and filled with tons of sea creatures... not for competitive EDH control.
Kraken of the Straits: See above.
Meletis Astronomer: This card is too "build-around-me!" It needs a deck with lots of enchantments and then lots of spells to target it (which, granted, can be those very enchantments). Still, it needs too much support from the build of the deck. Probably fine in Limited, though.
Mindreaver: Unless you're in a boring meta that uses the same cards over and over in different decks, this card is limited in its use, at best. And the mill thing really just works better with smaller decks, unless you're doing some wholesale milling with Lazav and the Aberration, or something.
Nullify: A weak counter.
Nyxborn Triton: If there's such thing as a vanilla Bestow creature/enchantment, this is it.. T_T
Oracle's Insight: Might be worth running in SOME deck if it wasn't such a high-CMC card. Yes, 4 (or 3) is a lot for what it does.
Perplexing Chimera: An interesting rattlesnake, actually. Clearly, it's a preemptive strike against bombs. That's really good... What concerns me a little is playing against Zedruu or chaos decks with spells/permanents' effects that don't care who the controller is. Also, it can be used against you, since the Chimera will go to your opponent. And I don't think you can sac it to High Market in response to its own trigger because the stack would look like this: [opponent's spell] --> [chimera trigger] --> [sac activation]::> [chimera dies] --> [chimera exchange] --> X because chimera isn't there to be exchanged... If you know some fancy stack tricks to get around the opponent gaining control of the Chimera, let me know. I like knowing how to abuse the stack ;3
Retraction Helix: Clearly meant to work with Heroic... not bad, of course. Just not right for GAA4.
Siren of the Fanged Coast: Gilded Drake is far better, even if it gives your opponents a 3/3 flier. At least it doesn't give your opponents a choice
Sphinx's Disciple: Inspired... same problem with the other Inspired creatures: has to stick around, which is not guaranteed.
Stratus Walk: An interesting effect, but it would dilute the control power of GAA4.
Sudden Storm: Not a bad card, it just costs too much, and it's effect is a little weak in EDH. Plus, there's a lot of shroud and hexproof stuff around. Not all that impressive.
Thassa's Rebuff: Would be better in a mono-U deck. We like hard counters here.
Tromokratis: Still probably better off in a Lorthos deck as one of the 99.
Vortex Elemental: Any attack triggers (like Annihilator) still happen, so it's not really that great.
Whelming Wave: Lorthos is calling...
Multicolour
Ephara, God of the Polis: Meant for creature-heavy decks. A better general than anything else.
Ephara's Enlightenment: Definitely a good card for creature-heavy builds. Reusable draw and puts counters on things. Mass wipe/bounce effects still hurt, though.
Artifacts
Astral Cornucopia: An expensive Everflowing Chalice.
Gorgon's Head: In spite of what the L'Oreal commercials say, it's not worth it.
Hero's Podium: Captain Sisay loves this card. There are simply too few legendaries in GAA4 (I don't think there are any besides the general, himself) to make this useful.
Pillar of War: Fine in Limited, I suppose.
Siren Song Lyre: Both the CMC and equip costs are too high for what it does... and tapping is a little weak, anyways.
Lands
Tample of Enlightenment: I don't like that it enters the battlefield tapped... At least Halimar Depths lets you see the top 3 and rearrange them. Scry 1 is a little myopic (hahaha!).
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So there we have it. I went through the entire set, and, yes, I know that most cards aren't viable for EDH. There are a few for consideration, though. Dawn to Dusk, Silent Sentinel, Fated Retribution, Plea for Guidance, etc. are great cards. I don't think I'd make room for anything besides Fated Retribution, though. I know my meta pretty well, and I know that the answers I have already are versatile enough to handle it. Fated Retribution adds another layer to the versatility of GAA4's board-wipe repertoire, which is why I'm intrigued. The rest are excellent, but I'm not convinced they'd cut it in a competitive meta.
Please let me know your thoughts, though! Everyone's experiences differ, which is why the Internet is great for sharing them. If you've played with any of the new set in your EDH playgroup, I'd love to hear how they fared.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Yes, he's worth it. You've covered all the main reasons he's great: cheap/efficient, surprise, chump blocker, etc. The flash-backed spell also costs 1 less with GAA4 out, which is stupid-good if you don't have a lot of mana open or you're trying to flip Erayo. And Snapcaster isn't gonna drop in price; he's just too powerful. He might (might) not rise in cost, but I just don't see him dropping below ~$20. Even if you take apart GAA4 to make another Blue deck, you'll surely find a use for good ole' Snappy... he's pretty much a staple for spell-based Blue decks. OK, who am I kidding? ANY Blue deck can use him effectively. If you don't think you can get him at a good price where you are, try eBay or other online (reputable!) retailers who will ship internationally at a low cost. Another thing I've found you can do with eBay is, if you find someone who's selling something near where you live, ask the seller to meet and exchange in person (for God's sake, do it in a public, safe place!... like an LGS or something) to save on shipping costs. It saves him/her an annoying trip to the post office and it saves you some money on shipping/handling.
For the time being, Archaeomancer could work as a substitute, but if you're looking for a good draw spell:
Lat-Nam's Legacy (good for tossing away combo pieces or other cards you don't need immediately)
Telling Time (good for drawing as well as setting up your next draw)
Muddle the Mixture (not exactly "draw", but it does work as a fantastic tutor. It also doubles as a non-hard counter... well, I guess that's actually it's first ability :P)
Remand (doesn't always work if they have enough mana to re-cast, though a well-timed Remand always brings a smile to my face... and it IS cheap [2, 1 with GAA4] and replaces itself in the hand. Plus, it's in the new Duel Deck: Jace vs. Vraska, so if you were gonna pick that up anyways, there's even more incentive to do so now)
Anyways, these are all cards that are cheap and Stick-able, should you choose to go in that direction. Also, these are pretty much all cantrips because true "draw spells" are overcosted and slow (see: Divination, 2 cards for 3 mana... and sorcery-speed! XD)
RE: Dismiss/Lost in the Mist
Either are fairly good for replacing Cryptic Command, which has gotten far more expensive in spite of being repinted... wtf, right? I'd lean towards Dismiss, myself, because I use Cryptic to counter and draw usually (unless there's a problem card that needs bouncing, or a battlefield of tokens worth tapping). Also, it's cheaper (4, 3 with GAA4), making it roughly the same cost as a normal counter.
I can't speculate about Cryptic, since I don't really know how widely it's being used or in what formats specifically... though I'd wager Modern has a lot to do with it >_> (UB Faeries is a thing again now that Bitterblossom isn't banned). Anyways, with the price it is now, I wouldn't go for it. I have no idea if it's going to keep it's value, drop, rise, whatever. Sure, it's probably the most versatile Blue spell in existence, making it incredibly powerful, but ultimately it can be replaced with other spells that do roughly the same thing, like Dismiss as you mentioned. Unless you were dead-set on optimizing this deck, I'd hold off until I had a better understanding of what's driving the price of Cryptic Command, and I'd want to know what the people in that/those formats think of the possibility of it getting reprinted again, or whatever.
EDIT: I just re-read your post about Cryptic being roughly the same price as Snapcaster. If so, snatch up that card! Cryptic is right around $50 on tcgplayer.com, so if it's less than that (~$25-30), it's probably worth it.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
It's funny, actually. Cleansing Meditation, that is. I was playing a 5-person game once with a Zedruu enchantment-heavy deck. I tutored up Cleansing Meditation because I had Enchanted Evening in hand. Zedruu-guy saw it coming and was trying to convince the other Blue player (Azami) to counter, but Azami-player thought I was just gonna wipe Zedruu's enchantments off the 'field. On my turn, I comboed off (with counter-back-up)! Moral of the story: Cleansing Meditation can look like just another piece of removal; it's inconspicuous, so it'll slide under the radar until people know what's up!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Sure, I will share… I have to admit I am going to incorporate a great many of your ideas into my deck to shake it up some. Smooth as silk is I would say is an overstatement
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Creatures
1 Sage of Epityr
1 Mistmeadow Witch
1 Sunscape Familiar
1 Stormscape Familiar
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Isperia, Supreme Judge
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Peacekeeper
1 Guile
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 Thasa, God of the Sea
1 Sakashima the Imposter
1 Ethereal Usher
1 Arcanis, the Omnipotent
1 Ith, High Arcanist
1 Wolly Razorback
1 Soulsworn Jury
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Draining Whelk
1 Azorius Guildmage
1 Platinum Angel
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer
1 Wall of Omens
1 Lavinia of the Tenth
1 Rayne Academy Chancellor
1 Rhystic Study
1 Dissipation Field
1 Cloud Cover
1 Propaganda
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Spiritual Asylum
1 Parallel Thoughts
1 Dovescape
Plainswalkers
1 Venser, The Sojourner
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Jace Beleren
Instants
1 Counterspell
1 Dramatic rescue
1 Dissipate
1 Dissolve
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Hindering Light
1 Absorb
1 Render Silent
1 Overrule
1 Syncopate
1 Sphinx’s Revelation
1 Condemn
1 Brainstorm
1 Wing Shards
1 Crib Swap
1 Echoing Truth
Sorcery
1 Reverse the Sands
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Worldpurge
1 Austere Command
1 Deep Analysis
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Moonring Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Tundra
1 Soldevi Excavations
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Temple of the False God
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Celestial Colonnage
1 Command Tower
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Mystic gate
1 Skycloud Expanse
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Prahv, Spires of Order
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Boreal Shelf
9 Island
5 Plains
I definitely know the advantage it creates. It's one of those cards that "should be" run with Land Tax no matter what. I do it for two reasons. 1) I don't have one and I just can't bring myself to buy one. Granted, I've got a lot of cards that are quite expensive, but... 2) I don't know what I'd cut for it. Perhaps Gideon Jura or something, but every time I'm about to pull Gideon out, I think of how useful he's been in the past and end up leaving him in.
I guess these aren't really "good reasons" to not run Scroll Rack, but I've found I can win without it, too. :/
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Thank you for the feedback, I had mostly been using Tunnel Vision as a tutor wht my own Eldrazi to prevent milling and had not even thought of the mill apsect, but i do like it since it gives me another win condition. Right now I am working on a hybrid list between our decks. I had been leaning towarda a more heavy enchantment deck in my evolution since my play group runs a deck that uses the sanguine bond, Exquisite Blood aloong with the extort mechanic. As a result you have seen where I run Platinum Emperion and Platinum Angel and protecting them with Spiritual Asylum to combat this. I just added the Aura Thief, Academy rector, Enchanged evening, Greater Auromancy combo's. This has really worked well fishbowling... I still maintain my old combo and a lot of my search/tutor FX but the addition of this has made me less of a one trick pony. Thanks for the great feedback I will post a new decklist soon and hope for more feed back. I am quetsioning with the new path of the deck if Parallel Thoughts might be a little to dangerous for me
The only thing I find with him is that he's a little expensive to drop and planeswalkers always require good timing if you want them to stay alive. (Granted, I don't EXPECT my 'walkers to stay alive, but it's always nice when they do.)
If I were really desperate for card advantage from Scroll Rack, I'd look at taking out something else, but I have no idea what I would take out, which gets us back to the original problem
Oh, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a house. She kills token armies and wizards/elves like nobody's business. And she pumps up your stuff if/when you get other creatures out. It's like she's removal and an anthem all at once!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Costs 5 (4 with GAA4) for a situational deterrent. No thanks. At least Ghostly Prison/Propaganda will always tax and can each be recurred with Sun Titan.
That does sound epic!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
So what is the right time? Either early game (t2-3), or late game when opponents have tapped out (or mostly tapped out). The best way to play it is with a Sol Ring and then pass turn. Sol Ring because it will untapped (it's not a land!), and pass turn so you can counter/remove stuff (you should have been holding onto counters...).
Anyways, if you drop it early game, it becomes a bottle-neck that slows the game down to the point where No one wantsit gone because of how much mana everyone would then have access to. In that case, it's a very strategic piece.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Anyways, it all depends on how combo you're gonna go with GAA4. You can search and sculpt (your hand) for awhile, but playing non-removal spells has its drawbacks. First, you're diluting the concentration of your removal, which - let's face it - you'll need. Second, you're not developing board position, which is critical.
Re: Intuition
Great card, don't get me wrong. But it's a trick that can backfire pretty easily and, given the circumstances you're proposing, too conditional. It's hard enough to get one particular card in hand, even with tutors/search, so getting TWO particular cards - in this case Intuition and Replenish - in hand at the right time is even more difficult/tutor intensive. (Keep in mind, if you're tutoring for Intuition-Replenish combo, you're not searching for other win-cons or answers...) Let's say you DO have these in hand and use Intuition to find your best enchantments (likely Omniscience and some other things). Any smart opponent would select Omniscience to go to your hand (even if they know it's a rattlesnake), so you'd have to hard-cast it. Sure, you'll get two (and probably more) very powerful other enchantments to recur with Replenish, but I still have reservations about the whole thing. Mostly, as I mentioned before, it requires a lot of hand-sculpting. This also makes the deck/your hand even more vulnerable to chaos effects and discard/handcycling.
Re: Idyllic Tutor
I had it in the deck, but it was too slow. Sorcery-speed; 3CMC (2 with GAA4); though the card does go to hand. It was only really effective late-game, and (though I can usually withstand the early- and mid-game), realistically, there's never a guarantee you'll make it to late-game.
Re: Mana Rocks
I'll consider adding perhaps one, but I'm not (personally) going all-in for a Power Artifact combo for infinite-mana. It's too easy, and about half of my playgroup does infinite combos anyways... even I use them (in another deck, though
Again, if this is how you want your GAA4 deck to work, go for it!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
The main key will be looking at the "Decklist by Card Function" section after determining what you can and can't afford. For example, Gilded Drake is still probably about $20 or more, and is listed under "spot removal." So, you don't need to replace it with another card that steals creatures (they're all too high-CMC anyways) but rather with another spot removal card (hopefully in the 2-CMC range... Revoke Existence, perhaps?). Same thing with "Denial", "Prison", "Beaters/Enforcers", etc. The exact function (theft, exile, tap, etc.) doesn't have to be the same, just the general function (spot removal, counterspell, wrath, etc.). And the closer to the original card's CMC, the better, otherwise the curve will get out of whack
Are there any cards in particular that you're concerned about? I can let you know how necessary they are for the deck or provide recommendations for replacements. There's also a short "Budget cards" list towards the end of the primer.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB