I want to be "that guy" at my store that plays this list with Tangle Wire, Stasis, Static Orb, Fatespinner, Black Vise and the like to completely lock people out of playing the game and drag it on for hours, I don't even care if I have a win-con or not. I've finally got all the cards to put your deck list together, so I'm going to try it out today. I've never played a deck like this before, so I figured I'd see how your list plays out before I add any personal touches.
And by all means, if you have any suggestions on how to be the most degenerate prison/stax player do tell.
With new cards out , what would you look to too put in?
I will probably replace Hinder with Dissipate because the tuck rule has weakened. Having one tuck counter is still good for stopping big and/or annoying creatures and spells, and Dissipate exiles those, so it becomes its own unique form of removal.
The new cards don't offer much in the way of what GAA4 wants, which are cheap and versatile removal (both counters and kill/exile spells) or s/tax effects. That's just the direction the "new world order" is heading: more creatures, less spells. So there tend to be slim-pickins from the new sets.
With the tuck rule being changed do you think this weakens the hinder/ spin into myth plan to win?
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Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
I'm not sure if I simply missed it or not, but why don't you run Sphere of Safety? With as many enchantments as you run, it can easily get to 5-6 mana, not counting Ghostly Prison and Propaganda's additional 2. On a slightly related note, what is your thought on Norn's Annex?
Also what is your opinion on Angelic Arbiter? The way I see her, she deals damage and heavily cripples the threat power of opponents.
I'm playing a deck absed on guidlines you showed in here, and I am absolutely loving it so far.
I'm not sure if I simply missed it or not, but why don't you run Sphere of Safety? With as many enchantments as you run, it can easily get to 5-6 mana, not counting Ghostly Prison and Propaganda's additional 2. On a slightly related note, what is your thought on Norn's Annex?
Sphere of Safety costs too much. Even at 4CMC (because of GAA4's discounts), it isn't worth it to me for attack-prevention. Enchantments are already pretty slow to put out, and Sphere of Safety is underwhelming when you can be dropping Ghostly Prison/Propaganda 1-2 turns ahead. If I were more concerned about protecting PWs, I might consider it *maaaaaaybe*, but I never expect 'walkers to last more than a turn anyways. And, if someone is killing all your enchantments, or you haven't dropped one yet, you've paid 4-5 mana for basically nothing. At least Ghostly/Prop will always tax, regardless of the board state. (I learned this "don't depend too heavily on dropping enchantments" the hard way when I was testing out Serra's Sanctum... it produced *nothing* for the entire game, which didn't last long...)
I don't like Norn's Annex because opponents can always pay 2 life to attack. So, it doesn't actually stop attacks, especially given that life points in this format are rather abundant. 2 life per creature per attack can, of course, add up; however, if I'm going to control how and when my opponents attack, I'm going to hard-line them into paying mana.
Why make them pay mana rather than life? Because mana is how they pay for spells. If you pay 2 to attack me with your Craw Wurm, that's 2 less you have for using in your Second Main Phase or during the rest of the round (on other people's turns).
This 2-mana-tax already hampers the spell-power of opponents. Now think about how much more they'll be limited should they attack with more than one creature. (Also, you should remind your opponents of this when they're thinking of paying the tax...)
Also what is your opinion on Angelic Arbiter? The way I see her, she deals damage and heavily cripples the threat power of opponents.
Too expensive. There are 3 basic types of decks, right?: aggro, combo, and control. While aggro decks *can* cast spells and combo/control decks *can* attack, they usually specialize in one or the other, so you're not actually limiting anything. You're just confining deck to doing what it already does best -- either attack or cast. (And by turn 6-7, that aggro deck has enough power on the board that casting more creatures isn't terribly necessary. Combo/control decks won't have cared about attacking from the start.)
6-7CMC for a creature that sits there and hits people isn't worth it to me. (Hell, I even took it out of my angel-tribal deck because I found it so undershelming... though I admit I have pretty high standards) I'd rather have Elesh Norn in that slot because dead tokens and mana dorks can't attack at all. And the slight boost to your own creatures is big enough that you can start doing damage that seriously adds up.
If you really want to use Angelic Arbiter, please do. Everyone's meta is different, so if she's the answer to the problems your facing, you should take my advice with a grain of salt. The primer is, after all, built with a "take-all-comers" attitude in mind, so it doesn't address specific meta-problems. (I'll consider writing a section about meta-problems and solutions, though. It seems like a good idea.)
I'm playing a deck absed on guidlines you showed in here, and I am absolutely loving it so far.
I'm glad you're enjoying it! Control tends to be very underrepresented in the EDH community, in general, so I'm glad this thread is helping to spread the misery -- I mean, joy!
Your thoughts on Norn's Annex are basically the exact same I've had every single time I look at it. I guess that frees up the slot for the Greater Auramancy I plan on buying eventually. I might post a full decklist later on when I'm not supposed to be studying, but thanks for now for the insight.
Oh yeah and I also wish you hadn't ever mentioned Maze of Ith. That was extra money I did NOT need to spend on 1 land...:p
If you dont want to spend a lot of money on Maze of Ith, its little brother, Mystifying Maze should do. (You can always just use Misty Maze until you are comfortable dropping cash for Maze of Ith.)
With the tuck rule being changed do you think this weakens the hinder/ spin into myth plan to win?
Sorry! I missed your post.
If you plan to win by tucking and Tunnel Visioning, then it doesnt matter what you tuck. It can be their Mystic Elf for all you care, so long as you remember the card that youre tucking.
It's too late for not spending money on Maze, seeing as I already grabbed it. Doesn't matter though, free threat nullification makes so many players I know extremely sad. Then you Thespian Stage or Vesuva it...
Yes, this deck can function perfectly fine without Winter Orb or Static Orb. Winter Orb just helps set a really tight lock on the board. I know that many playgroups hate the idea of Winter Orb, so it's controversial. It can also be very tough to play through with GAA4 if you don't have certain mana sources available.
As for Linvala, she's decent, I suppose. But, if I'm going to shut down activated abilities, I'd consider Cursed Totem (it DOES hit mana abilities) or Null Rod first. 1) They're artifacts, making them less susceptible to most board wipes. There's also a smaller chance of them getting cloned, stolen, etc. 2) They're both cheaper to cast than Linvala. However, she does provide a flying body, which is nice.
***
Update: In light of the new tuck rules, I've switched Dissipate in for Spell Crumple. Please refer to the Changelog for the reasoning behind this, if so inclined.
I was just drawing the comparison between Linvala and Cursed Totem - that they both hit the mana abilities. I didn't mean to imply that Linvala couldn't, though rereading my post, I can totally see how it sounds like that. I'm going to use not using English enough as an excuse.
And most groups can't tolerate Winter Orb. My old group in Cali considered it a "war crime" along with Blood Moon. Armageddon/Catastrophe were fine for some reason. Go figure.
Here I am again. I played your deck today and I loved it. I have some questions though, and I'll just list them.
1. How do 32 lands work? I don't know why, but it worked every game. Impressive.
Thanks! It's probably a combination of two things. 1. Low-ish mana curve. As a more optimized list, I try to include only the best (of a type of spell), which means considering the mana cost of that spell. Just as much (or MORE) bang for your buck, if you will. 2. GAA4 lowers that already low mana curve with his discounts. Almost every spell becomes 1 less to cast; sometimes, you pay 2 less. And while you enjoy the ease of casting spells, your opponents are mired down with bureaucratic forms (i.e., the taxes) of the deck.
Basically, yes. It's because of speed. There are enough CITP lands in the deck as it is. Any more will slow it down to a crawl. Of course, the deck *is* supposed to be slow, but only for your opponents. You, as a pilot, should be trying to make the deck work (i.e., set up the prison) as quickly as you can with the cards you draw.
If fixing is a problem, I recommend subbing out a mono-coloured CIPT land for any of the ones you mentioned. Or, probably better with the orbeffects, a WU-producing artifact.
3. Why don't you run Cavern of Souls? I know there's no tribal, but Academy Rector, Venser, GAA4 and Snapcaster are Humans after all. And even if only GAA4 was, that'd be strong enough on my watch.
Enh. I've never had a problem resolving my creatures. I guess if you want to hammer another nail in the coffin, Cavern wouldn't be a bad inclusion.
4. Why don't you run Norn's Annex? I know it's easier to get around since you can just pay the life a few times, but still. Especially decks who simply can't produce white mana simply scoop to it. I played against a Goblin-Deck today which simply resigned when Annex resolved.
Umm... I just addressed this, but I suppose it won't hurt to reiterate. Opponents can always pay the 2 life. (Source) It's a soft-lock card at best, and worthless at worst.
Your goblin-loving opponent probably didn't understand the rules. Besides, if you faced a goblin deck whose only win-con was attacking and didn't have one of Red'smanyoptions of artifactremoval on hand, then he deserved to lose anyways.
5. What are your thoughts on Ugin, the Spirit Dragon? I feel like he'd fit greatly. I know he doesn't synergize with GAA4 or anything really, but he can be such an absurd game winner.
1. Over-hyped Standard card.
2. 0 synergy with the deck. GAA4, as a card, favours casting W and U. Ugin doesn't benefit from this, and doesn't contribute much to locking the board down. Remember that when evaluationg PWs, you can't judge them by their ulti's... because you will almost never reach that point. The only thing I can see him being useful as is in the role of a colourless board-wipe, just in case someone plays Iona. But then, you ARE playing a 2-coloured deck with removal in BOTH colours. And you probably should have countered her in the first place.
3. GAA4 isn't necessarily about splashy, game-winning spells. This isn't Maelstrom Wanderer or Riku.
6. I asked it earlier, but I'd repeat it: Ojutai. Now that I played the deck, I'm conviced he's great. And casting Ojutai for 3 is... like... the dream. You only need five mana with him to have counter backup for the counter? Sign me up.
Again, I find him over-hyped, even in Standard (which I do play).
If you want card-advantage in a creature, look to Consecrated Sphinx. Unlike Ojutai, who needs to swing (usually a turn later unless you have greaves out) AND hit to get you 1 card (out of 3), Consecrated Sphinx just needs to survive until the next draw step to get you 2 cards. Consecrated Sphinx might not have the built-in protection that Ojutai does (which is conditional anyways... it stops at the most critical point: tapping to attack; if Ojutai gets removed during combat, there goes your card advantage), BUT he is faster and better at getting you cards. If he manages to last even one round of the table, you've more than made up the 6 (5 with GAA4 discounts) that you paid to put him out there.
Back again. I've got a question for you: what do you think on using Muddle the Mixture? I like it for the options personally- either a tutor or counter. Not to mention if you've got a good stickable target you can go find the Scepter. I also run Grand Abolisher (as great protection and an alternate way to cast Omniscience), so he's a good target to pull up too. Anyway, what're your thoughts on it?
Back again. I've got a question for you: what do you think on using Muddle the Mixture? I like it for the options personally- either a tutor or counter. Not to mention if you've got a good stickable target you can go find the Scepter. I also run Grand Abolisher (as great protection and an alternate way to cast Omniscience), so he's a good target to pull up too. Anyway, what're your thoughts on it?
Apologies for the late reply. I was the GP Chiba (pulled a Tarmogoyf, so I dropped and played EDH all day) and then had to write a presentation... That's the long way of saying I was busy
I use Muddle the Mixture in Talrand as both a counter (for instant/sorcery) and as a tutor. It's a little disappointing as a tutor, since you have to use it at sorcery-speed. With Talrand, casting is very important, especially at instant-speed so that you have drakes to attack with on the following turn. Still, I find it pretty useful. Not optimal, but useful.
For GAA4, it depends very much on the other cards you are using. In my particular build, the other 2-drops (i.e., Transmute targets) tend to be counters, removal, or utility. I find it a bit of a waste to tutor for a counter, but finding Cyclonic Rift (it's technically a 2-drop! :D), the Stick, or Talisman of Progress (to go with Winter Orb or something) might be a good way to ensure that you have the right things you need. Unfortunately, none of the combos are searchable with Muddle the Mixuture...
Of course, I'm spoiled by instant-speed tutors, so the sorcery-speed Transmute effect puts me off a little. It basically means showing your oppenents what you're about to do way before you do it. This isn't always bad; you can use this to your political advantage. The Transmute cost also doesn't benefit from GAA4's discounts, so if you're running on a tight mana-budget (like I inevitably end up doing), Muddle the Mixture will probably just sit in your hand, as there are usually other things to cast on your turn (prison cards) or because you want to leave mana open during the round (to counter/remove threats on other people's turns).
I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I far prefer hard counters to conditional ones like Muddle. I've played with conditional counters and find they usually just get in the way. If I've got a way to counter instants and sorceries and someone casts a creature or artifact or enchantment, I'm screwed. (And this happened a lot during my early experiments with the deck.) So, if I were to include Muddle in GAA4, it would be specifically as a tutor. In this version of GAA4, there are more than enough strong/oppressive Transmute targets; I'm just not entirely sold on it because I really like optimized cards. I wouldn't naturally use half of the abilities of Muddle the Mixture (i.e., it's counter ability), so it would only really be working at half-power.
HOWEVER! If your running Grand Abolisher (which I'm considering trying out myself... :D) and a bunch of other 2-drops that you feel you really NEED to make the deck work, I can definitely see a place for it in GAA4.
Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention I can find Containment Priest in a meta with a bunch of filthy cheaters (which is a crad I'd totally suggest using for the anti-cheaty nature). I do see the instant versus sorcery tutor problem (and I just don't have a Mystic Tutor yet :/), so I'll keep that in mind.
Hey, sorry if there is already one posted in this thread already but could someone refer me to a refined competitive GAA4 1v1 normal edh rules stax list? Sounds like you guys really know what you're talking about and I've been jonesin for some stax. Thanks in advance for any help!
Hey, sorry if there is already one posted in this thread already but could someone refer me to a refined competitive GAA4 1v1 normal edh rules stax list? Sounds like you guys really know what you're talking about and I've been jonesin for some stax. Thanks in advance for any help!
We don't use the French Rules in my group, even if we play 1v1, so I can't speak with too much authority. However, this seems like a pretty good place to start.
Also, would you say that a tuned GAA4 stax list is better than a tuned Derevi stax list? Again, normal commander rules and not duel.
Derevi is usually faster because of mana dorks. However, if GAA4 is set up quickly, it can shut down and lock up an entire board. It's only happened once so far - mostly because I don't always use this deck....for hate reasons - but I managed to shut down Kozilek, Azusa, and Rafiq (competitive lists) on t4. I started with a decent hand, and drew into Winter Orb and Sphere of Resistance >_>
The main difference between the two is that a tuned Derevi list will have lots of ways to search for nasty creatures that AREN'T spells (i.e., they're activated or triggered abilities of other permanents), which is very strong. And the creatures Derevi can find with those abilities can lock up a board. The drawback is that it takes a few more steps than GAA4, but this is circumvented - to a certain extent anyways - by the early mana accel (usually mana dorks) that Green has access to. Still, a well timed Cursed Totem or Linvala can nullify the dorks and ruin Green's creature-based search engines/giant cheaty toys (Captain Sisay, Fauna Shaman, Elvish Piper, etc.).
In general for stax, though, GAA4 has a slight advantage because it's only 2 colours. Even with the best lands, 3 colours will nearly always necessitate a diffusion of focus when compared to 2 colours. GAA4's colours specialize in stax - artifacts, enchantments, and removal/counters, as well as the most efficient ways to search for those.
When you think about it, what does Green add to stax that White and Blue can't do better? If you answer "staxxy creatures," which is natural given Green's predilection towards creature builds, then the focus of the deck gets weakened. You're no longer just looking for artifacts and enchantments for your prison, but you're also spending resources getting creatures, which 1) take up deck-slots from removal/counters, and/or 2)"get in the way" (sorry, I couldn't think of a better way to say it) of important draws and top-deck filters.
I'm not denying that a tuned Derevi stax list is good, nor am I arguing that GAA4 is universally better. It's more or less a coin-toss, depending on the pilot. (For example, I don't know how to play Green. I'm not joking... I built a tuned Derevi deck a year ago. It was a good deck; everyone I lent it to won. I almost never won when I played it... because I don't know how to Green. ) Anyways, I'm simply giving my opinion as to which I think will make a more versatile and reliable stax deck
What can we do against Animar? When he gets those counters on, our tax effects wane very easily. Had to deal with that and Surrak combo so I couldn't counter crap. All I could do is slow him down a bit with Supreme Verdict.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
And by all means, if you have any suggestions on how to be the most degenerate prison/stax player do tell.
I mentioned it about 6 posts up... #173.
Do you have any specific questions about Narset?
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
I will probably replace Hinder with Dissipate because the tuck rule has weakened. Having one tuck counter is still good for stopping big and/or annoying creatures and spells, and Dissipate exiles those, so it becomes its own unique form of removal.
The new cards don't offer much in the way of what GAA4 wants, which are cheap and versatile removal (both counters and kill/exile spells) or s/tax effects. That's just the direction the "new world order" is heading: more creatures, less spells. So there tend to be slim-pickins from the new sets.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Also what is your opinion on Angelic Arbiter? The way I see her, she deals damage and heavily cripples the threat power of opponents.
I'm playing a deck absed on guidlines you showed in here, and I am absolutely loving it so far.
Sphere of Safety costs too much. Even at 4CMC (because of GAA4's discounts), it isn't worth it to me for attack-prevention. Enchantments are already pretty slow to put out, and Sphere of Safety is underwhelming when you can be dropping Ghostly Prison/Propaganda 1-2 turns ahead. If I were more concerned about protecting PWs, I might consider it *maaaaaaybe*, but I never expect 'walkers to last more than a turn anyways. And, if someone is killing all your enchantments, or you haven't dropped one yet, you've paid 4-5 mana for basically nothing. At least Ghostly/Prop will always tax, regardless of the board state. (I learned this "don't depend too heavily on dropping enchantments" the hard way when I was testing out Serra's Sanctum... it produced *nothing* for the entire game, which didn't last long...)
I don't like Norn's Annex because opponents can always pay 2 life to attack. So, it doesn't actually stop attacks, especially given that life points in this format are rather abundant. 2 life per creature per attack can, of course, add up; however, if I'm going to control how and when my opponents attack, I'm going to hard-line them into paying mana.
Why make them pay mana rather than life? Because mana is how they pay for spells. If you pay 2 to attack me with your Craw Wurm, that's 2 less you have for using in your Second Main Phase or during the rest of the round (on other people's turns).
This 2-mana-tax already hampers the spell-power of opponents. Now think about how much more they'll be limited should they attack with more than one creature. (Also, you should remind your opponents of this when they're thinking of paying the tax...)
Too expensive. There are 3 basic types of decks, right?: aggro, combo, and control. While aggro decks *can* cast spells and combo/control decks *can* attack, they usually specialize in one or the other, so you're not actually limiting anything. You're just confining deck to doing what it already does best -- either attack or cast. (And by turn 6-7, that aggro deck has enough power on the board that casting more creatures isn't terribly necessary. Combo/control decks won't have cared about attacking from the start.)
6-7CMC for a creature that sits there and hits people isn't worth it to me. (Hell, I even took it out of my angel-tribal deck because I found it so undershelming... though I admit I have pretty high standards) I'd rather have Elesh Norn in that slot because dead tokens and mana dorks can't attack at all. And the slight boost to your own creatures is big enough that you can start doing damage that seriously adds up.
If you really want to use Angelic Arbiter, please do. Everyone's meta is different, so if she's the answer to the problems your facing, you should take my advice with a grain of salt. The primer is, after all, built with a "take-all-comers" attitude in mind, so it doesn't address specific meta-problems. (I'll consider writing a section about meta-problems and solutions, though. It seems like a good idea.)
I'm glad you're enjoying it! Control tends to be very underrepresented in the EDH community, in general, so I'm glad this thread is helping to spread the misery -- I mean, joy!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Oh yeah and I also wish you hadn't ever mentioned Maze of Ith. That was extra money I did NOT need to spend on 1 land...:p
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Sorry! I missed your post.
If you plan to win by tucking and Tunnel Visioning, then it doesnt matter what you tuck. It can be their Mystic Elf for all you care, so long as you remember the card that youre tucking.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Also what about Linvala, Keeper of Silence as a possible inclusion ?
Yes, this deck can function perfectly fine without Winter Orb or Static Orb. Winter Orb just helps set a really tight lock on the board. I know that many playgroups hate the idea of Winter Orb, so it's controversial. It can also be very tough to play through with GAA4 if you don't have certain mana sources available.
As for Linvala, she's decent, I suppose. But, if I'm going to shut down activated abilities, I'd consider Cursed Totem (it DOES hit mana abilities) or Null Rod first. 1) They're artifacts, making them less susceptible to most board wipes. There's also a smaller chance of them getting cloned, stolen, etc. 2) They're both cheaper to cast than Linvala. However, she does provide a flying body, which is nice.
***
Update: In light of the new tuck rules, I've switched Dissipate in for Spell Crumple. Please refer to the Changelog for the reasoning behind this, if so inclined.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Also regarding Linvala, Keeper of Silence, she does hit mana abilities as well Since you put emphasis on Cursed Totem being able to, unsure if you were implying that Linvala, Keeper of Silence couldn't.
I was just drawing the comparison between Linvala and Cursed Totem - that they both hit the mana abilities. I didn't mean to imply that Linvala couldn't, though rereading my post, I can totally see how it sounds like that. I'm going to use not using English enough as an excuse.
And most groups can't tolerate Winter Orb. My old group in Cali considered it a "war crime" along with Blood Moon. Armageddon/Catastrophe were fine for some reason. Go figure.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Thanks! It's probably a combination of two things. 1. Low-ish mana curve. As a more optimized list, I try to include only the best (of a type of spell), which means considering the mana cost of that spell. Just as much (or MORE) bang for your buck, if you will. 2. GAA4 lowers that already low mana curve with his discounts. Almost every spell becomes 1 less to cast; sometimes, you pay 2 less. And while you enjoy the ease of casting spells, your opponents are mired down with bureaucratic forms (i.e., the taxes) of the deck.
Basically, yes. It's because of speed. There are enough CITP lands in the deck as it is. Any more will slow it down to a crawl. Of course, the deck *is* supposed to be slow, but only for your opponents. You, as a pilot, should be trying to make the deck work (i.e., set up the prison) as quickly as you can with the cards you draw.
If fixing is a problem, I recommend subbing out a mono-coloured CIPT land for any of the ones you mentioned. Or, probably better with the orb effects, a WU-producing artifact.
Enh. I've never had a problem resolving my creatures. I guess if you want to hammer another nail in the coffin, Cavern wouldn't be a bad inclusion.
Umm... I just addressed this, but I suppose it won't hurt to reiterate. Opponents can always pay the 2 life. (Source) It's a soft-lock card at best, and worthless at worst.
Your goblin-loving opponent probably didn't understand the rules. Besides, if you faced a goblin deck whose only win-con was attacking and didn't have one of Red's many options of artifact removal on hand, then he deserved to lose anyways.
1. Over-hyped Standard card.
2. 0 synergy with the deck. GAA4, as a card, favours casting W and U. Ugin doesn't benefit from this, and doesn't contribute much to locking the board down. Remember that when evaluationg PWs, you can't judge them by their ulti's... because you will almost never reach that point. The only thing I can see him being useful as is in the role of a colourless board-wipe, just in case someone plays Iona. But then, you ARE playing a 2-coloured deck with removal in BOTH colours. And you probably should have countered her in the first place.
3. GAA4 isn't necessarily about splashy, game-winning spells. This isn't Maelstrom Wanderer or Riku.
Again, I find him over-hyped, even in Standard (which I do play).
If you want card-advantage in a creature, look to Consecrated Sphinx. Unlike Ojutai, who needs to swing (usually a turn later unless you have greaves out) AND hit to get you 1 card (out of 3), Consecrated Sphinx just needs to survive until the next draw step to get you 2 cards. Consecrated Sphinx might not have the built-in protection that Ojutai does (which is conditional anyways... it stops at the most critical point: tapping to attack; if Ojutai gets removed during combat, there goes your card advantage), BUT he is faster and better at getting you cards. If he manages to last even one round of the table, you've more than made up the 6 (5 with GAA4 discounts) that you paid to put him out there.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Apologies for the late reply. I was the GP Chiba (pulled a Tarmogoyf, so I dropped and played EDH all day) and then had to write a presentation... That's the long way of saying I was busy
I use Muddle the Mixture in Talrand as both a counter (for instant/sorcery) and as a tutor. It's a little disappointing as a tutor, since you have to use it at sorcery-speed. With Talrand, casting is very important, especially at instant-speed so that you have drakes to attack with on the following turn. Still, I find it pretty useful. Not optimal, but useful.
For GAA4, it depends very much on the other cards you are using. In my particular build, the other 2-drops (i.e., Transmute targets) tend to be counters, removal, or utility. I find it a bit of a waste to tutor for a counter, but finding Cyclonic Rift (it's technically a 2-drop! :D), the Stick, or Talisman of Progress (to go with Winter Orb or something) might be a good way to ensure that you have the right things you need. Unfortunately, none of the combos are searchable with Muddle the Mixuture...
Of course, I'm spoiled by instant-speed tutors, so the sorcery-speed Transmute effect puts me off a little. It basically means showing your oppenents what you're about to do way before you do it. This isn't always bad; you can use this to your political advantage. The Transmute cost also doesn't benefit from GAA4's discounts, so if you're running on a tight mana-budget (like I inevitably end up doing), Muddle the Mixture will probably just sit in your hand, as there are usually other things to cast on your turn (prison cards) or because you want to leave mana open during the round (to counter/remove threats on other people's turns).
I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I far prefer hard counters to conditional ones like Muddle. I've played with conditional counters and find they usually just get in the way. If I've got a way to counter instants and sorceries and someone casts a creature or artifact or enchantment, I'm screwed. (And this happened a lot during my early experiments with the deck.) So, if I were to include Muddle in GAA4, it would be specifically as a tutor. In this version of GAA4, there are more than enough strong/oppressive Transmute targets; I'm just not entirely sold on it because I really like optimized cards. I wouldn't naturally use half of the abilities of Muddle the Mixture (i.e., it's counter ability), so it would only really be working at half-power.
HOWEVER! If your running Grand Abolisher (which I'm considering trying out myself... :D) and a bunch of other 2-drops that you feel you really NEED to make the deck work, I can definitely see a place for it in GAA4.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7790606#post7790606
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7790606#post7790606
We don't use the French Rules in my group, even if we play 1v1, so I can't speak with too much authority. However, this seems like a pretty good place to start.
Derevi is usually faster because of mana dorks. However, if GAA4 is set up quickly, it can shut down and lock up an entire board. It's only happened once so far - mostly because I don't always use this deck....for hate reasons - but I managed to shut down Kozilek, Azusa, and Rafiq (competitive lists) on t4. I started with a decent hand, and drew into Winter Orb and Sphere of Resistance >_>
The main difference between the two is that a tuned Derevi list will have lots of ways to search for nasty creatures that AREN'T spells (i.e., they're activated or triggered abilities of other permanents), which is very strong. And the creatures Derevi can find with those abilities can lock up a board. The drawback is that it takes a few more steps than GAA4, but this is circumvented - to a certain extent anyways - by the early mana accel (usually mana dorks) that Green has access to. Still, a well timed Cursed Totem or Linvala can nullify the dorks and ruin Green's creature-based search engines/giant cheaty toys (Captain Sisay, Fauna Shaman, Elvish Piper, etc.).
In general for stax, though, GAA4 has a slight advantage because it's only 2 colours. Even with the best lands, 3 colours will nearly always necessitate a diffusion of focus when compared to 2 colours. GAA4's colours specialize in stax - artifacts, enchantments, and removal/counters, as well as the most efficient ways to search for those.
When you think about it, what does Green add to stax that White and Blue can't do better? If you answer "staxxy creatures," which is natural given Green's predilection towards creature builds, then the focus of the deck gets weakened. You're no longer just looking for artifacts and enchantments for your prison, but you're also spending resources getting creatures, which 1) take up deck-slots from removal/counters, and/or 2)"get in the way" (sorry, I couldn't think of a better way to say it) of important draws and top-deck filters.
I'm not denying that a tuned Derevi stax list is good, nor am I arguing that GAA4 is universally better. It's more or less a coin-toss, depending on the pilot. (For example, I don't know how to play Green. I'm not joking... I built a tuned Derevi deck a year ago. It was a good deck; everyone I lent it to won. I almost never won when I played it... because I don't know how to Green. ) Anyways, I'm simply giving my opinion as to which I think will make a more versatile and reliable stax deck
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis