First and foremost, never let Kaalia stick if you can avoid it. (I know, Cavern of Souls has made this really hard. Blow it up if you can. And, yes, I'd start running Wasteland and Tectonic Edge alongside Strip Mine to achieve this...) If you can't counter her, especially with a Hinder or Spell Crumple, try to exile her with Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile before she gets set up on Lightning Greaves. Seriously consider running Unexpectedly Absent to throw her back in the deck, where she's less accessible. (If you can do this in response to a fetchland or other search, even better, because X=1 will be enough to make sure she gets thoroughly mixed in.)
And... ugh... geez, I hate, HATE to advocate this, but Kaalia deserves it. Especially if the deck is built like that primer. It's a great deck; there's no doubt about it. It's got the aggro down, and the control, well, under control. Basically, my advice is this: combo as fast as you can. Take out the Enchanted Evening/Aura Thief/Cleansing Meditation combo and sub in Spin into Myth+Tunnel Vision+Personal Tutor (you appear to already have the Blue Sun's Zenith/Braingeyser in your deck...) Take out straight draw (like, Dream Cache, Sphinx's Revelation, etc.) and add in more tutors (especially Transmute tutors, like Ethereal Usher, which you can use to search for Tunnel Vision).
Your mission as soon as the game starts is to find this combo as quickly as you can while fending off Kaalia. This means, you should look for an opening hand with sufficient land/mana and at minimum 1 low-cost counterspell/spot-removal card. With any luck, you'll also get a prison piece or tutor. Drop prison pieces as you come by them (and can play them while still leaving counter-mana open), and, as always, try to land GAA4 as quickly as you can.
By the way, Spin into Myth gets around Earnest Fellowship, so you could viably target anything when that is out. Also, Leyline of Santity/Witchbane's Orb will protect you from targeted discard, which is damn handy for keeping all those lovely combo pieces you've been collecting.
Other things to consider, unfortunately, are All is Dust, Nevinyrral's Disk, and Oblivion Stone, as dealing with Iona can be a pain... Keep in mind, you still have the chance to bring back your prison enchantments with Replenish and some other handy creatures/artifacts with Sun Titan.
Yeah, doing this totally creates a very combo-oriented deck, rather than lovely pure control. However, the Kaalia deck's main weakness is its inability to respond to spells. (Even if Kaalia-player tried to Fork one of the combo pieces, you'd still end up winning.) Thus, the way to win becomes to exploit this weakness and use a spell-based combo, rather than a permanent-based combo.
Anyways, this is simply my first impression about how to deal with a good Kaalia deck. As discussion about this continues (I certainly hope many more people in this forum community will join in!!) and as I consider the two decks a bit more, I'll let you know what I think. For now, though, I hope this helps.
*EDIT: My apologies for such a tardy reply, frodo and jedi. I've been busy with my move to Japan (again) and there have been a lot meetings, e-mails, etc. going on that take a lot of time, or otherwise make me incredibly tired. I thank you guys for your dedication towards discussion in this thread and hope that you'll continue to particpate!
I definitely like the protections that Spiritual Asylum offers, especially since many of the creatures in this deck to double-duty as prison wardens as well as blockers. It's nice not to have them get PtE'd right away.
As for the counterspells you bring up, I don't dislike them, but I do much prefer cantrip-style counters that cost 1-2 CMC and have a light colour requirement: Remand, Arcane Denial, Memory Lapse, etc. The first two at least replace themselves in your hand, which is a huge card advantage for a counterspell, and the last one puts your opponent behind in CA. In fact, I've been testing out Remand and Arcane Denial in the deck for a while now, and I far prefer them to some of the other counters I'm running. Once I figure out what I replaces with what, I'll update the decklist...
I just got myself a Sphynx's Revelation (now that it's waaaaaay cheaper, $$$-wise) and have yet to test it myself. I like the possibility of more cards, especially in the late-game, but - as usual - I'm having difficulty trying to see what I should take out to make a spot for it (even for play-testing purposes). Still, by all other reports, the card is pretty damn useful in such a tight control deck, so I recommend it to anyone and everyone who wants to use it.
As for Dissipation Field, I can just see this card backfiring soooo badly... (depending on your playgroup, of course). First, creatures tend to do damage, and in EDH, ETB creatures are king. So basically, if an opponent attacks you with an ETB creature and Dissipation Field returns that creature to its owner's hand, you've just restocked their ammo supply. Granted, with enough prison/tax pieces out, they won't be able to cast that creature again (and the ETB effect won't go off), so that's the upside. It's just (and maybe this is me being paranoid because of the decks I've played against...), aggro/combo decks that abuse ETB creatures are also prepares to rez them from the GY, so even if Dissipation Field loads up an opponent's hand to the extent that they discard, you've just made it easier for them to bring back that creature. And, if you're playing against more combo-oriented decks or other control decks, Dissipation Field seems a bit less effective... IDK, for me, the jury is still out.
War Tax is a great card! My friend played it in his Zur deck for a while, so I'm well aware of its usefulness. I would probably replace either Ghostly Prison or Propaganda with it because 3 anti-attack enchantments is overkill unless you're in a really aggro-oriented meta. (Personally, my meta is orienting itself towards control and combo, though one or two players steadfastly maintain their aggro decks. This is why my GAA4 deck has to be prepared to take on all archetypes )
I wouldn't mind Frozen Aether or its W-cousin, Kismet, so much if they didn't freakin' cost 4 CMC (3 with GAA4). Truly, opponents' lands coming in tapped is an incredibly powerful ability, especially when combo-ed with Winter Orb and/or Static Orb, but casting such a (relatively) high-CMC prison piece leaves you vulnerable in that you have less mana for reactive spells (counters/removal/etc.). I guess it depends on the kind of control deck you want to run, really, and it's hard to find the right balance between spell-power and permanent-power.
Insofar as Telepathy concerned, I'd rather not use it unless I wanted to make the game really, REALLY political. Using it, it's easy to point out to other players the possible threats that could come from your opponents, which is a great protection in itself. However, I find that its ability just doesn't measure up to the power level of the rest of the deck.
I know I repeat this a lot, but it's always worth saying again in discussion, these are just my opinions about particular cards. If you like certain cards over others, by all means use them! Always make the deck that you want to play and will have fun playing!
Thanks for the response I agree with most of your assesments here, personally dissipation works for me just because i see mostly aggro and it is very good against nekusar decks that seem to be very popular since he got printed in my meta. Stopping cards like Manabarbs is also a thing
I have been working my sox's off in my play group against the Kaalia deck I have found that politics is becoming even more crucial in these games then ever before. I am currently waiting on my Spin into Myth (my GAA4 deck is completely foil) and luckily I have always run Tunnel Visions with Spell Crumple and Hinder as back up win conditions which also meant already had Ethereal Usher in my 100. So far the games have really come down to me holding the fort early against Kaalia being patient and playing smartly. I really am starting to think that early game something like a Winter Orb (which I don't currently run) or maybe even Stasis the ultimate prison card may be of real value. Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
I've always been really hesitant to use Stasis because you have to hit *every* land drop. If you drop it in the early game, this means you have to hit your drops with something that comes into play UNtapped and can produce U, supposing you want to keep Stasis around. That's why I settled on Winter Orb. If you're smart about how you tap and untap each turn, you can still manage to cast at least one spell a round and maybe have mana for a counter or removal. The good thing about Stasis, though, is that you can play it early, hinder people's board development, get rid of it (by not playing U or something) and then rez it with Sun Titan later in the game when you're ready for it.
Still, Static Orb is a good thing to have in the 99, since it doesn't limit the untapping to only lands. Static Orb ties down people's mana rocks, mana dorks, and other creatures (especially ones with t abilities).
As far as politics is concerned, and I'm sure you're doing something like this already, I recommend leading the charge against Kaalia. If you're in a playgroup or LGS meta that plays regularly together, just remind everyone early on what Kaalia is capable of and what she did to them (specifically!) last time. GAA4 doesn't have the power of direct combat; rather, it wins (as you know) by stalling and comboing. Sure, in a pinch you can repeatedly hit someone with a Titan until they're dead -- especially good to do when you're waiting on combo pieces -- but the name of the GAA4-game is control. So, the political style has to rally other forces to combat a common enemy, using counters and spot-removal wisely to prevent someone from snatching the game away. All they while building a lovely little prison. The prison, of course limits your opponents, but it's also there to protect you. In a FFA environment, playing prison pieces that limit your "allies" against Kaalia can hurt you as well, since no one will have the casting power to prevent the inevitable. I'd hold off on playing offensively control-y prison cards, like Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Winter Orb, or Static Orb until you're very, VERY sure you can handle the entire board yourself. Yes, these cards are great for hurting your opponents, but -- politically speaking, of course -- not everyone is an enemy. Y'know?
Cheers, mate! Let me know how things are progressing against Kaalia. I don't have a Kaalia in my meta, so gathering info and tactics/strategies on how to combat her is super-useful!
Hey all just wanted to bring up some cards for discussion to keep things new and exciting what about cards like divine presence. Personally my meta is alot of big huge xenagos monstery type decks and we can usually deal with token decks pretty easily so I think this could be a house for us. Also while I'm talking about token decks lightmine field is a gem I came across if your meta sees alot of swarm tactics. Also azorius guildmage is a personal favorite of mine lately being able to tap down that one pesky creature is pretty awesome and her second ability can stop some combos. aether barrieroverburdenand ankh of mishra are cards that I think work well together and really fit the theme of taxes that I'm personally going for in my version. Also a new card that I am going to try is master of predicaments, what's that you drew an omniscience and you can't academy rector it awh shucks well I'll just play it for free if they always guess greater than for then you basically get to play any 1-4 drops for free which in my deck is majority of the cards. Magus of the tabernacle, pendrell mists and mana web make your opponents lives miserable. I just like hearing my opponents cry so I always find awesome new ways to do it so any other mean suggestions are welcome and thoughts on cards listed above! oh and one last one - crackdown basically no one in my meta plays white creatures and if they do it's usually a pretty fair deck that I can beat so it seem's very powerful
@Madhatter After a few more days of playing against Kaalia, of the Vast, I have made a few changes as suggested and have had better success. First change I made was in removing Dissipation Field for Spiritual Asylum, this card protects my prison a bit better while I liked the field and still do in certain match ups I feel Asylum is a much stronger pick in what I have been facing lately. I also moved Cleansing Meditationto the board (temporarily) in favor of Spin into Myth I have also brought in Memory lapsein place of one of my lesser counters. I feel the player facing a major threat in my deck has started to build alter his deck so it really comes down to him vs. me as the two heavy hitters in our play group. This is were politics, politics, politics can really help you. Pointing out how big of a threat he is and noting that "my counters and tax cannot stop him when he plays his creatures for free." can really put a target on his back. I have been stressing that I am really the only thing standing between my the other players and him. I have also stressed that my Prison cards can really limit his ability to attack me leaving him to attack them. This seems to have worked and the Kaalia players seem overly aggressive and play right into the role I am painting them in. (however the Kaalia player in my group is a really nice player, I still want to win) Recently I have been looking at a few new prison cards and I agree with you Static Orb is much better than stasis and I have recently found Portcullis which given what Kaalia does it should give me less to worry about if I can get it in play. It also I believe has great potential against token decks and other overrun decks (I wish it came in foil). Any other suggestions are welcome!
As a big time fane of Magus I really like him but I feel that he is a bit of a pain in my version of the deck. I do run some creatures and I see how he really can turn the screws on taxing. I have also seen him backfire in big ways.
Also azorius guildmage is a personal favorite of mine lately being able to tap down that one pesky creature is pretty awesome and her second ability can stop some combos
I agree with this completely and have run her since I first started the deck. She is very useful in the two abilities she has and is a 2/2 body for 2CC on top of everything else
Well thank you all for the help I really enjoy all the help in building my deck... keep the discussion going!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
@Madhatter After a few more days of playing against Kaalia, of the Vast, I have made a few changes as suggested and have had better success. First change I made was in removing Dissipation Field for Spiritual Asylum, this card protects my prison a bit better while I liked the field and still do in certain match ups I feel Asylum is a much stronger pick in what I have been facing lately. I also moved Cleansing Meditationto the board (temporarily) in favor of Spin into Myth I have also brought in Memory lapsein place of one of my lesser counters. I feel the player facing a major threat in my deck has started to build alter his deck so it really comes down to him vs. me as the two heavy hitters in our play group. This is were politics, politics, politics can really help you. Pointing out how big of a threat he is and noting that "my counters and tax cannot stop him when he plays his creatures for free." can really put a target on his back. I have been stressing that I am really the only thing standing between my the other players and him. I have also stressed that my Prison cards can really limit his ability to attack me leaving him to attack them. This seems to have worked and the Kaalia players seem overly aggressive and play right into the role I am painting them in. (however the Kaalia player in my group is a really nice player, I still want to win) Recently I have been looking at a few new prison cards and I agree with you Static Orb is much better than stasis and I have recently found Portcullis which given what Kaalia does it should give me less to worry about if I can get it in play. It also I believe has great potential against token decks and other overrun decks (I wish it came in foil). Any other suggestions are welcome!
As a big time fane of Magus I really like him but I feel that he is a bit of a pain in my version of the deck. I do run some creatures and I see how he really can turn the screws on taxing. I have also seen him backfire in big ways.
Also azorius guildmage is a personal favorite of mine lately being able to tap down that one pesky creature is pretty awesome and her second ability can stop some combos
I agree with this completely and have run her since I first started the deck. She is very useful in the two abilities she has and is a 2/2 body for 2CC on top of everything else
Well thank you all for the help I really enjoy all the help in building my deck... keep the discussion going!
Yea magus is pretty awesome and between him and pendrell mists are the reason why I keep my creature count to 4 or 5 and I just win through absolute shut down with my batterskull so I only really need to keep one creature around usually GAA
@ Jedi:
Good to hear that the battle against Kaalia is going well! It sounds like you've got a good handle on the political situation, as well. Always a good thing.
And, check out the discussion about Humility and Lightmine Field below for another idea to stop Kaalia.
@ Frodo:
I quite like Divine Presence because it really saves GAA4. Penrdrell Mists and Magus of the Tabernacle are a little iffy for me because they cost 4 (even 3 with GAA4 out seems a little... much), but you're in a creature-heavy meta so it makes sense that these cards are working for you.
My meta/playgroup is shifting more towards creature-less control and combo, with only one person consistently making aggro decks. Certainly, even other control and combo decks utilize creatures, but they tend to be ETB creatures, which they probably don't care about losing the next upkeep, or no one gets an upkeep again because the other control/combo deck wins that turn. As a result, I've geared my version of the deck more towards responding to casting (taxing effects that make it difficult to cast, as well as counters).
Also Lightmine Field reminds me of the Humility-Lightmine Field combo I ran once. Basically, any creature that attacks dies. Ah, those were the days. However, Humility also makes GAA4's taxing and cost reducing abilities absolutely worthless. Still, it might be worth considering if GAA4 has died once or twice and you're not likely to play creatures for a while.
The other nice thing about Humility is that it shuts off static, activated, and triggered abilities of all creatures, so if a particular thing *cough*Kaalia*cough* is giving you trouble, Humility can effectively put an end to it. Also, it's an enchantment, and enchantments are pretty difficult to destroy and even harder if you've managed to get Greater Auramancy in play, as targeted removal is useless... which makes countering global removal, like Akroma's Wrath, easily do-able.
The thing that makes this combo difficult to pull off is that you actually have to get these cards in hand. Granted, playing Humility without Lightmine Field isn't a bad thing for shutting down creatures (even ETB creatures), so that's not really the issue. What is a little less optimal is having Lightmine Field without Humility. If someone just keeps swinging with his/her single biggest creature, the Field only does 1 dmg to it, which usually isn't enough to stop it. Of course, if you managed to put Enlightened Tutor on The Stick, then you're golden...
here is my deck list I finally took the time to put it together. I have been having good success in multiplayer. I never played 1v1 before, and last week I started. Holy cow is this deck good. I never lost a single game. IF you are looking for a good 1v1 deck this is awesome just cut the sol ring and your golden.
I have been having good success in multiplayer. I never played 1v1 before, and last week I started. Holy cow is this deck good. I never lost a single game
That is great news, I too have had a lot of success with this deck in 1v1, great deck I can see how you really dedicated yourself to the tax. I often flip flop over which is my better deck GAA4 or Rhys, the Redeemed both are so much fun to run and play very different. Being a control player at heart I have structured both decks to control but I have to say W/Uis special to me.
I was wondering what you replaced sol ring for? That has been a sticking point for me for a long time. BTW it is great so see someone getting use out of Spiritual Asylum that is truly a champ at keeping the prison locked down. I also am interested in how Spelltithe Enforcer and Overburden are working for you. I see that you are really running a lot of taxing with your set up, have you found any one trying to get around your taxes? Not only has my play group popped up with Kaalia of the Vast deck but now we have a Borborygmos Enraged player who is ramping at amazing speeds (lets just say Boundless Realms on turn 4 with me taped our for GAA4 did not end well) the problem I found with this is their ramp negates our tax and then Borborygmos Enraged's ability negates our counters since we have little that stops activated abilities. The good news is the deck seems to not be very consistent it either explodes or does nothing at all.
However when it is on an explosive game I am in trouble. I was only able to slow him down and in a 1v1 game I almost won by damage from the Frost Titan but my testing is incomplete against him we have only played 2 games. Anyways I was wondering if anyone has any experience playing GAA4 against high ramp decks where the tax is not a devastating as it usually is.
@ Madhatter
I just ordered a Lightmine Field I think this was an excellent suggestion and I cannot wait to try it. I am also saving up for a Mana Drain (I play only paper magic and when possible have foiled the entire GAA4 deck) I think that might be one of my final pieces of the puzzle. And one last time I wanted to post my current list and get some thoughts it includes changes I made to face Kaalia of the Vast, Borborygmos Enraged, and an Melek, Izzet Paragon!!! Can you spot the theme my play group has shifted to using abilities and such that get around the tax...
Also I was looking at the new set and only see one card that might help us at all Quiet Contemplation
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
Unexpectedly Absent is solid removal for any permanent, and especially for generals. Just cast as X=1 (with GAA4, just pay the WW) when someone cracks a fetch or searches their library.
Hushwing Gryff is a handy Torpor Orb on a flying body for 3 (2 withheld Judge out). However, it only hits creatures' ETB effects, and it can hurt some of the major players in the deck (like Snapcaster Mage and the Titans). Still good for shutting off E-Witness, but Torpor Orb first the same and then some... Maybe Orb is a better fit?
Finally, Static Orb, as discussed recently, it fantastic at ruining mana bases, attacks, etc. Mana dorks, mana rocks, as well as lands and attackers/blockers end up tapped for a very long time -- basically until the player "saves up" enough untaps to negate the effect. However, Orb affects you, too, so playing it wisely will come down to timing... I have the same hesitations with this card as I do with Winter Orb, but its effect is powerful enough that it just might be worth it.
It is a sad day to lose the little flyer! I am very glad my playgroup runs with no banned list.
Below are my takes: Unexpectedly Absent[/*] - This to me seems the most likely to be added. It would always be relevant, there will always be something you want to tuck. You will always find value for it Hushwing Gryff [/*] - it could be good but I think Torpor Orb is a little better. That fact that it is a squishy creature makes me not like it as much Static Orb[/*] - really like this but running Winter Orb and Static Orb is going to make planning and resource management a HUGE pain in the bottom.
For me I believe I am just going to put in some card that seems very basic like Talisman of Progress or Aven Mindsencor however I did have a look and saw five candidates I wanted to put forth
Spirit of the Labyrinth - I know this really is symmetrical and we need to draw but it does hit other draw decks... (not really that big on this one) Invoke Prejudice - AWWWW if only this was not so mana expensive and dependent on them not playing our like colors... Reparations - Not really that great but I do happen to love the flavor text Karmic Justice - This is one I am really high on because we run so many enchantments and people are often destroying them, this will punish them for doing that. Cast Tranquility well I am going to wipe all your lands! I think this might be on my list of contenders with Unexpectedly Absent it will punish them for hitting the large amount of enchantments we play Forcefield - I like this, while not a tax card it does help reduce the amount of damage we are taking which is never bad!
Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
There is hope for Erayo here is some clarification on the banning here
we've decided to eliminate "Banned as Commander". Having multiple lists was unnecessary information overhead, and we felt it was clearer to have a single, streamlined banlist and add "Problematic as a Commander" to the banlist criteria.
Doing that meant that we needed to evaluate the four cards on that list. Fully banning Braids and Rofellos were easy calls, especially given Rofellos' last stint. Though we have a few reservations about how annoying Kokusho may be, general consensus was that unbanning her was more correct. Erayo was the most contentious; it's a bigger problem in competitive play, which we don't really consider, but is a miserable card to play against at all levels. We're leaving it banned for now, but may revisit that in the future.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
Good lord... I knew they had done away with the "banned as general" category (why?! It made so much sense!), but really? Could you imagine playing against Erayo as the general? How awful would that be... I reckon she'll stay banned at that rate, sadly.
Anyways, for the matter at hand, I fully agree with Jedi's analysis. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with Unexpectedly Absent, given it's incredible versatility.
Forcefield has always been a card I would have liked to include (probably replacing Ghostly Prison or Propaganda, seeing as those cards all mute the effects of attacking), but it has always been prohibitively expensive and a little too niche to justify the monetary costs.
Truly, Static Orb is great for prison-building, but its collateral damage is also a heavy burden when piloting this deck.
Edit: @Jedi's decklist:
Finally got around to looking at it closely (Sorry 'bout that! I've been kept busy with moving and all). I'd definitely say that, given your meta, you're going great! Since your opponents are so bent on getting around taxes, it might be better to go for a harder lockdown. Orbs and such might just be better here. Also, have you thought about Stifle and/or Trickbind to prevent activatedand triggered abilities? Both can go on Isochron, so there's still the potential for multiple uses... though it appears the Stick is in your sideboard.
Another card that I've found to be great at turning off specific problems is Pithing Needle. Shuts off Sol Rings all around as well as other particular nuisances.
Good lord... I knew they had done away with the "banned as general" category (why?! It made so much sense!), but really? Could you imagine playing against Erayo as the general? How awful would that be... I reckon she'll stay banned at that rate, sadly.
Oh man as a general she is nearly broken, however in play she is not as bad lots of ways to answer her from many different players (unless you get a rule of law lock with her flipped) I am going to keep my fingers crossed and lead a campaign to get her back HAHA... I agree totally the banned as general category was great and I think some cards are great in a deck but make broken generals
You raise a great point... I have been strongly considering harder lockdowns with the Orbs with the more people try to get around my taxes. Stifle I have considered but since the rod is in the board right now I don't think he adds enough value. However if I bring the Rod into the MD I think one maybe both have to be in the deck.
Now you just raised a card I had not considered at all Pithing Needle!! I primarily play legacy and this is a staple in some of my decks, why I never considered it in GAA4 is beyond me. I think this is a great call and something that will have value ALL THE TIME... if I can find something to cut it goes in, thanks for all the help this forum has generally made my deck the scourge of the EDH play group and I hear groans when it hits the table!
Any thoughts on the new set what might help us?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Argetlam over at Hakai Studios for the Sig!
Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too' scared to think - you just freeze and pull a stupid face
BW Midrange | G Legacy Elves | X MUD Weilder |X Affinity | R RDW | UWB Esper Stoneblade | W Death and Taxes | W Mono White Control (Modern) | UWRGeist Midrange (Modern) | UW Heroic | UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV EDH
Are you gonna run Clever Impersonator from Khans, or do you prefer Metamorph just because it's easier to cast? I pulled an Impersonator at the prerelease and I like that it can target any nonland permanent.
Personally, I like Metamorph because it's easier to cast in addition to gaining the cost-reduction bonus from GAA4, meaning you could feasibly cast it for 2 and 2 life. Plus, it hits artifacts and creatures -- the two most prevalent non-land permanent types in EDH.
The upside to Impersonator is that it can copy a PW (I mean, really, there are so few enchantments worth spending 3-4 mana for a copy...), but even PWs worth copying are few and far between in EDH because of how "fragile" they are. ("Fragile," by which I mean, difficult to protect and easily succumbing to damage.)
Still, if it's what you have and you don't want to run out for a specific card, go ahead and use it. It's not a huge difference between the two.
Also, I will be doing a Khans update. Because this set has a lot of multi-coloured cards as well as a lot of cards that might see play, I'm going to venture outside just the W and U reviews to cover multi-coloured cards, especially new legends, that *I* think will pose the greatest threats to the deck... and how to deal with them. If I neglect to talk about something that you'd like to discuss, please bring it up! Sharing opinions is part of the function of this forum
Now you just raised a card I had not considered at all Pithing Needle!! I primarily play legacy and this is a staple in some of my decks, why I never considered it in GAA4 is beyond me. I think this is a great call and something that will have value ALL THE TIME... if I can find something to cut it goes in, thanks for all the help this forum has generally made my deck the scourge of the EDH play group and I hear groans when it hits the table!
I'm a big fan of Nevermore in my GAAIV deck. It's simple, cheap, and often reads "target linear general loses the game". I put it in in response to all the annoying Purphorous decks that popped up and it has been pulling it's weight since then regardless of the enemy generals.
played this today. locked the board up real good. then i was able to aura thief + supreme verdict and took everyone's lands and other cards. they all scooped after that.
played this today. locked the board up real good. then i was able to aura thief + supreme verdict and took everyone's lands and other cards. they all scooped after that.
Awesome! I'm glad you like the deck.
Isn't it nice to have the win-spell be uncounterable? I'm also assuming you had Enchanted Evening out...:P
played this today. locked the board up real good. then i was able to aura thief + supreme verdict and took everyone's lands and other cards. they all scooped after that.
Awesome! I'm glad you like the deck.
Isn't it nice to have the win-spell be uncounterable? I'm also assuming you had Enchanted Evening out...:P
yea. i drew the nuts that game. i was able to get everything out. i was playing against damia group hug (weird i know), slivers and the naya precon deck. only mistake i did was someone destroyed all non basic lands and could search to get basics. i had aven mindcensor in hand and didn't cast it :/
i did deviate a little from your original list. i have to say, however, that dig through time should be in this deck. i used it and at one point, i was able to get elesh norn and a swords. cast elesh norn, guy tried to pump his dudes with a sliver pump creature and i swords it. so good.
i did deviate a little from your original list. i have to say, however, that dig through time should be in this deck. i used it and at one point, i was able to get elesh norn and a swords. cast elesh norn, guy tried to pump his dudes with a sliver pump creature and i swords it. so good.
Dig Through Time seems alright... Delve is a very good keyword ability, and I'm glad that Blue has gotten some access to it. However, it still is an expensive draw spell (7, or 6 with GAA4); and you don't even get to keep everything you dig for. At that point, I'd rather run Sphinx's Revelation because you get to completely replenish your hand and gain some life, which pisses off opponents like no other ;P Actually, since I've picked up a Sphinx's Revelation before returning to Japan, I've been looking for a card to cut for it, but I just can't seem to cut anything... (as usual XP). Again, though, if you find a card that works well for you, by all means run it
so they just announced that EDH can be an FNM format! how can we make this the strongest deck available?
I like to think this is a pretty competitive deck already. It can hang with -- and win against -- some of the most competitive generals WotC has released, including Azami, Zur, Orolo, Edric, and Scion. (These are the generals that are in my meta, you see... I have to put up with them all the time XP) If you're looking to make this into a hyper-competitive deck (by which I mean t3-4 combo), you're going to have to turn it into a dedicated combo deck with control as back-up. That would mean an almost complete re-vamp of the list, since my version of the deck is the opposite: a control deck with combo as back-up.
On this thread, we've already discussed a few ways of making combo elements more present in the deck, but I'll list those and a few more options here for the sake of a nice, clean summary of combo options.
Obviously, Tunnel Vision works well with the tuck spells (Spell Crumple, Hinder, Condemn) already, so Spin into Myth merely provides another means of tucking. (For dedicated combo, repetition is very necessary.) Ethereal Usher is the typical search/tutor for this combo.
This combo can go off t2-3 if you have the right cards in hand. Both elements are easily tutor-able (Academy Rector can get you Rest in Peace, and Enlightened Tutor can fetch either). The main problem with this combo is that it can only take out one opponent at a time. Once you take out the most threatening player, everyone will be gunning for you and will try to remove RiP and/or Helm. If you managed to Temporal Mastery for 2 turns in a row, you can kill off 2 opponents, but in 4-5-man pods, which is typical in EDH tourneys, you'll still have to handle 1 or 2 other players. Clearly, go for the strong players first. After that, just be careful: you never know who will have stuff in hand to break your combo pieces.
Now that I think about it, Rest in Peace might be a suitable addition to combat graveyard shenanigans, in general. It will depend on the meta, though. My meta barely uses GY tricks and the ones that come up are easily dealt with. If there are a lot of GY issues where you play, seriously consider adding this card into your deck.
The "original" GAA4 combo-win. It can still be disrupted, especially now that Bane of Progress is a thing, but it's pretty hard to break otherwise.
___
Those are the best combo options I can think of off the top of my head. For a complete list of other W/U/WU combos, please refer to the infinite combos database.
_______________________________________
Now, if you're going for the ultimate control deck, I'd say this is already pretty close (not to sound arrogant... :P). I've distilled this deck over many years into a very optimized and (I'd like to think) balanced blend of spell-control [countering and taxing elements] and board control [removal effects of all sorts and attack prevention]. There's also mana denial (Winter Orb and Sphere of Resistance, etc.).
The spell-control elements are intended to stop or prevent combo and other control decks from doing what they do, while the board-control inhibits aggro and other control decks from setting up. When you're going to make adjustments to the decklist, consider carefully which side your meta leans towards.
If cut-throat combo decks are running rampant, you'll want more cheap, even cantrip-y, counter-spells (Mana Leak, Faerie Trickery, and even Force Spike are handy here). Basically, anything to stop the combo as early/quickly as possible without spending a lot of mana to do it.
If aggro decks are popular where you are, first think about what kind of aggro it is: swarm or Voltron. (Yes, there are more balanced aggro lists, but really, they mostly fall into these categories... Kaalia is a whole 'nother beast and we've discussed how to ham-string her earlier on this thread... even on this very page [roughly pg. 6, for reference].) If you're dealing with a swarm, you'll want more global removal: Catastrophe, Rout, and Fated Retribution. All three are excellent, as they have enough versatility (in either their targets or timing) to be of use. If you're dealing with a lot of Voltron decks, you'll want a lot of spot removal so that you'll have something in hand when they go to equip their Voltron with Lightning Greaves. Once their Voltron is equipped/enchanted with something to make it un-targetable/indestructible, you'll probably have to rely on board wipes, especially Cyclonic Rift to stave them off.
No matter what kind of decks you're playing against though, I STRONGLY recommend you maintaining some sort of balance between your control elements: taxing, mana denial, spell-control, and board-control. One will necessarily have to take priority in order to create a strong backbone/theme for the GAA4 deck, but the others should definitely be present -- even to a minimal degree -- for solidifying and maintaining control throughout the game. Finding the balance between these elements will be up to you, based on your meta, your playstyle, and your personal preferences/budget.
Cheers and good luck! Let me know how things are going. Post a decklist and/or game report here so that other GAA4 players can see what works and what isn't so great. Info sharing is one of the main reasons the Internet is so fabulous and this MtG community is one of the best ways to communicate useful information to each other. Let's exploit it! ;D
And... ugh... geez, I hate, HATE to advocate this, but Kaalia deserves it. Especially if the deck is built like that primer. It's a great deck; there's no doubt about it. It's got the aggro down, and the control, well, under control. Basically, my advice is this: combo as fast as you can. Take out the Enchanted Evening/Aura Thief/Cleansing Meditation combo and sub in Spin into Myth+Tunnel Vision+Personal Tutor (you appear to already have the Blue Sun's Zenith/Braingeyser in your deck...) Take out straight draw (like, Dream Cache, Sphinx's Revelation, etc.) and add in more tutors (especially Transmute tutors, like Ethereal Usher, which you can use to search for Tunnel Vision).
Your mission as soon as the game starts is to find this combo as quickly as you can while fending off Kaalia. This means, you should look for an opening hand with sufficient land/mana and at minimum 1 low-cost counterspell/spot-removal card. With any luck, you'll also get a prison piece or tutor. Drop prison pieces as you come by them (and can play them while still leaving counter-mana open), and, as always, try to land GAA4 as quickly as you can.
By the way, Spin into Myth gets around Earnest Fellowship, so you could viably target anything when that is out. Also, Leyline of Santity/Witchbane's Orb will protect you from targeted discard, which is damn handy for keeping all those lovely combo pieces you've been collecting.
Other things to consider, unfortunately, are All is Dust, Nevinyrral's Disk, and Oblivion Stone, as dealing with Iona can be a pain... Keep in mind, you still have the chance to bring back your prison enchantments with Replenish and some other handy creatures/artifacts with Sun Titan.
Yeah, doing this totally creates a very combo-oriented deck, rather than lovely pure control. However, the Kaalia deck's main weakness is its inability to respond to spells. (Even if Kaalia-player tried to Fork one of the combo pieces, you'd still end up winning.) Thus, the way to win becomes to exploit this weakness and use a spell-based combo, rather than a permanent-based combo.
Anyways, this is simply my first impression about how to deal with a good Kaalia deck. As discussion about this continues (I certainly hope many more people in this forum community will join in!!) and as I consider the two decks a bit more, I'll let you know what I think. For now, though, I hope this helps.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Thanks for the response I agree with most of your assesments here, personally dissipation works for me just because i see mostly aggro and it is very good against nekusar decks that seem to be very popular since he got printed in my meta. Stopping cards like Manabarbs is also a thing
Still, Static Orb is a good thing to have in the 99, since it doesn't limit the untapping to only lands. Static Orb ties down people's mana rocks, mana dorks, and other creatures (especially ones with t abilities).
As far as politics is concerned, and I'm sure you're doing something like this already, I recommend leading the charge against Kaalia. If you're in a playgroup or LGS meta that plays regularly together, just remind everyone early on what Kaalia is capable of and what she did to them (specifically!) last time. GAA4 doesn't have the power of direct combat; rather, it wins (as you know) by stalling and comboing. Sure, in a pinch you can repeatedly hit someone with a Titan until they're dead -- especially good to do when you're waiting on combo pieces -- but the name of the GAA4-game is control. So, the political style has to rally other forces to combat a common enemy, using counters and spot-removal wisely to prevent someone from snatching the game away. All they while building a lovely little prison. The prison, of course limits your opponents, but it's also there to protect you. In a FFA environment, playing prison pieces that limit your "allies" against Kaalia can hurt you as well, since no one will have the casting power to prevent the inevitable. I'd hold off on playing offensively control-y prison cards, like Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Winter Orb, or Static Orb until you're very, VERY sure you can handle the entire board yourself. Yes, these cards are great for hurting your opponents, but -- politically speaking, of course -- not everyone is an enemy. Y'know?
Cheers, mate! Let me know how things are progressing against Kaalia. I don't have a Kaalia in my meta, so gathering info and tactics/strategies on how to combat her is super-useful!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
As for the above
As a big time fane of Magus I really like him but I feel that he is a bit of a pain in my version of the deck. I do run some creatures and I see how he really can turn the screws on taxing. I have also seen him backfire in big ways.
I agree with this completely and have run her since I first started the deck. She is very useful in the two abilities she has and is a 2/2 body for 2CC on top of everything else
Well thank you all for the help I really enjoy all the help in building my deck... keep the discussion going!
Yea magus is pretty awesome and between him and pendrell mists are the reason why I keep my creature count to 4 or 5 and I just win through absolute shut down with my batterskull so I only really need to keep one creature around usually GAA
Good to hear that the battle against Kaalia is going well! It sounds like you've got a good handle on the political situation, as well. Always a good thing.
And, check out the discussion about Humility and Lightmine Field below for another idea to stop Kaalia.
@ Frodo:
I quite like Divine Presence because it really saves GAA4. Penrdrell Mists and Magus of the Tabernacle are a little iffy for me because they cost 4 (even 3 with GAA4 out seems a little... much), but you're in a creature-heavy meta so it makes sense that these cards are working for you.
My meta/playgroup is shifting more towards creature-less control and combo, with only one person consistently making aggro decks. Certainly, even other control and combo decks utilize creatures, but they tend to be ETB creatures, which they probably don't care about losing the next upkeep, or no one gets an upkeep again because the other control/combo deck wins that turn. As a result, I've geared my version of the deck more towards responding to casting (taxing effects that make it difficult to cast, as well as counters).
Also Lightmine Field reminds me of the Humility-Lightmine Field combo I ran once. Basically, any creature that attacks dies. Ah, those were the days. However, Humility also makes GAA4's taxing and cost reducing abilities absolutely worthless. Still, it might be worth considering if GAA4 has died once or twice and you're not likely to play creatures for a while.
The other nice thing about Humility is that it shuts off static, activated, and triggered abilities of all creatures, so if a particular thing *cough*Kaalia*cough* is giving you trouble, Humility can effectively put an end to it. Also, it's an enchantment, and enchantments are pretty difficult to destroy and even harder if you've managed to get Greater Auramancy in play, as targeted removal is useless... which makes countering global removal, like Akroma's Wrath, easily do-able.
The thing that makes this combo difficult to pull off is that you actually have to get these cards in hand. Granted, playing Humility without Lightmine Field isn't a bad thing for shutting down creatures (even ETB creatures), so that's not really the issue. What is a little less optimal is having Lightmine Field without Humility. If someone just keeps swinging with his/her single biggest creature, the Field only does 1 dmg to it, which usually isn't enough to stop it. Of course, if you managed to put Enlightened Tutor on The Stick, then you're golden...
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
1x Arcane Denial
1x Brainstorm
1x Cancel
1x Counterspell
1x Cryptic Command *F*
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dissipate
1x Evacuation
1x Exclude
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Hindering Light
1x Hindering Touch *F*
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Negate *F*
1x Pact of Negation
1x Path to Exile *F*
1x Pongify
1x Render Silent
1x Rethink
1x Rewind
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Wing Shards
1x Azorius Signet
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Mana Web
1x Sol Ring
1x Sphere of Resistance
1x Blind Obedience
1x Crackdown
1x Divine Presence *F*
1x Enchanted Evening
1x Frozen AEther
1x Future Sight
1x Future Sight
1x Ghostly Prison *F*
1x Island Sanctuary
1x Ivory Mask
1x Omniscience
1x Overburden
1x Propaganda
1x Rhystic Study
1x Sphere of Safety
1x Spiritual Asylum
1x Academy Rector
1x Aura Thief
1x Azorius Guildmage
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Magus of the Tabernacle
1x Master of Predicaments
1x Spelltithe Enforcer
1x Windborn Muse
1x Arid Mesa
1x Azorius Chancery
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Flood Plain
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x High Market
13x Island *F*
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
12x Plains *F*
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Seachrome Coast
1x Cleansing Meditation
1x Day of Judgment
1x Replenish
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Terminus
1x Time Reversal
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
That is great news, I too have had a lot of success with this deck in 1v1, great deck I can see how you really dedicated yourself to the tax. I often flip flop over which is my better deck GAA4 or Rhys, the Redeemed both are so much fun to run and play very different. Being a control player at heart I have structured both decks to control but I have to say W/Uis special to me.
I was wondering what you replaced sol ring for? That has been a sticking point for me for a long time. BTW it is great so see someone getting use out of Spiritual Asylum that is truly a champ at keeping the prison locked down. I also am interested in how Spelltithe Enforcer and Overburden are working for you. I see that you are really running a lot of taxing with your set up, have you found any one trying to get around your taxes? Not only has my play group popped up with Kaalia of the Vast deck but now we have a Borborygmos Enraged player who is ramping at amazing speeds (lets just say Boundless Realms on turn 4 with me taped our for GAA4 did not end well) the problem I found with this is their ramp negates our tax and then Borborygmos Enraged's ability negates our counters since we have little that stops activated abilities. The good news is the deck seems to not be very consistent it either explodes or does nothing at all.
However when it is on an explosive game I am in trouble. I was only able to slow him down and in a 1v1 game I almost won by damage from the Frost Titan but my testing is incomplete against him we have only played 2 games. Anyways I was wondering if anyone has any experience playing GAA4 against high ramp decks where the tax is not a devastating as it usually is.
@ Madhatter
I just ordered a Lightmine Field I think this was an excellent suggestion and I cannot wait to try it. I am also saving up for a Mana Drain (I play only paper magic and when possible have foiled the entire GAA4 deck) I think that might be one of my final pieces of the puzzle. And one last time I wanted to post my current list and get some thoughts it includes changes I made to face Kaalia of the Vast, Borborygmos Enraged, and an Melek, Izzet Paragon!!! Can you spot the theme my play group has shifted to using abilities and such that get around the tax...
4 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Mana Fixing/Acceleration - 4
1 Sol Ring
2 Sunscape Familiar
2 Stormscape Familiar
4 Vedalken Orrery
Prison - 12
2 Blind Obedience
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Propaganda
3 Detention Sphere
3 Rhystic Study
3 Aura of Silence
3 Peacekeeper
4 Spiritual Asylum
4 Cloud Cover
5 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Denial – 13
1 Syncopate
2 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
3 Dissolve
3 Absorb
3 Dissipate
3 Hinder
3 Render Silent
3 Spell Crumple
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Cryptic Command
5 Spin into Myth
Spot Removal - 5
1 Condemn
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rapid Hybridization
2 Cyclonic Rift
6 Terminus
Tutors/Draw/Card Advantage - 14
1 Brainstorm
1 Sage of Epityr
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Sphinx’s Revelation
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Dream Cache
4 Replenish
4 Academy Rector
5 Mnemonic Wall
5 Tunnel Vision
6 Ethereal Usher
6 Arcanis, the Omnipotent
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer
Beaters/Enforcers - 5
3 Wall of Denial
6 Consecrated Sphinx
6 Frost Titan
7 Platinum Angel
12 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Combo - 6
2 Greater Auramancy
3 Cleansing Meditation
4 Aura Thief
4 Academy Rector
5 Enchanted Evening
10 Omniscience
Planeswalkers - 3
3 Jace Beleren
5 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
5 Venser, the Sojourner
Lands - 34
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Command Tower
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Soldevi Excavations
1 Tolaria West
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 High Market
1 Maze of Ith
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Secluded Steppe
9 Island
7 Plains
2 Gilded Drake
2 Winter Orb
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Divine Presence
3 Rule of Law
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Lost Auramancers
2 Disenchant
Also I was looking at the new set and only see one card that might help us at all Quiet Contemplation
BRRakdos, Lord of RiotsBR
GAA4 will forever mourn the loss of Erayo :'(
Well, to replace Erayo, here are the cards I'm thinking of:
Unexpectedly Absent is solid removal for any permanent, and especially for generals. Just cast as X=1 (with GAA4, just pay the WW) when someone cracks a fetch or searches their library.
Hushwing Gryff is a handy Torpor Orb on a flying body for 3 (2 withheld Judge out). However, it only hits creatures' ETB effects, and it can hurt some of the major players in the deck (like Snapcaster Mage and the Titans). Still good for shutting off E-Witness, but Torpor Orb first the same and then some... Maybe Orb is a better fit?
Finally, Static Orb, as discussed recently, it fantastic at ruining mana bases, attacks, etc. Mana dorks, mana rocks, as well as lands and attackers/blockers end up tapped for a very long time -- basically until the player "saves up" enough untaps to negate the effect. However, Orb affects you, too, so playing it wisely will come down to timing... I have the same hesitations with this card as I do with Winter Orb, but its effect is powerful enough that it just might be worth it.
What do you all think?
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Below are my takes:
Unexpectedly Absent[/*] - This to me seems the most likely to be added. It would always be relevant, there will always be something you want to tuck. You will always find value for it
Hushwing Gryff [/*] - it could be good but I think Torpor Orb is a little better. That fact that it is a squishy creature makes me not like it as much
Static Orb[/*] - really like this but running Winter Orb and Static Orb is going to make planning and resource management a HUGE pain in the bottom.
For me I believe I am just going to put in some card that seems very basic like Talisman of Progress or Aven Mindsencor however I did have a look and saw five candidates I wanted to put forth
Spirit of the Labyrinth - I know this really is symmetrical and we need to draw but it does hit other draw decks... (not really that big on this one)
Invoke Prejudice - AWWWW if only this was not so mana expensive and dependent on them not playing our like colors...
Reparations - Not really that great but I do happen to love the flavor text
Karmic Justice - This is one I am really high on because we run so many enchantments and people are often destroying them, this will punish them for doing that. Cast Tranquility well I am going to wipe all your lands! I think this might be on my list of contenders with Unexpectedly Absent it will punish them for hitting the large amount of enchantments we play
Forcefield - I like this, while not a tax card it does help reduce the amount of damage we are taking which is never bad!
Thoughts?
Anyways, for the matter at hand, I fully agree with Jedi's analysis. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with Unexpectedly Absent, given it's incredible versatility.
Forcefield has always been a card I would have liked to include (probably replacing Ghostly Prison or Propaganda, seeing as those cards all mute the effects of attacking), but it has always been prohibitively expensive and a little too niche to justify the monetary costs.
Truly, Static Orb is great for prison-building, but its collateral damage is also a heavy burden when piloting this deck.
Edit: @Jedi's decklist:
Finally got around to looking at it closely (Sorry 'bout that! I've been kept busy with moving and all). I'd definitely say that, given your meta, you're going great! Since your opponents are so bent on getting around taxes, it might be better to go for a harder lockdown. Orbs and such might just be better here. Also, have you thought about Stifle and/or Trickbind to prevent activatedand triggered abilities? Both can go on Isochron, so there's still the potential for multiple uses... though it appears the Stick is in your sideboard.
Another card that I've found to be great at turning off specific problems is Pithing Needle. Shuts off Sol Rings all around as well as other particular nuisances.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Oh man as a general she is nearly broken, however in play she is not as bad lots of ways to answer her from many different players (unless you get a rule of law lock with her flipped) I am going to keep my fingers crossed and lead a campaign to get her back HAHA... I agree totally the banned as general category was great and I think some cards are great in a deck but make broken generals
You raise a great point... I have been strongly considering harder lockdowns with the Orbs with the more people try to get around my taxes. Stifle I have considered but since the rod is in the board right now I don't think he adds enough value. However if I bring the Rod into the MD I think one maybe both have to be in the deck.
Now you just raised a card I had not considered at all Pithing Needle!! I primarily play legacy and this is a staple in some of my decks, why I never considered it in GAA4 is beyond me. I think this is a great call and something that will have value ALL THE TIME... if I can find something to cut it goes in, thanks for all the help this forum has generally made my deck the scourge of the EDH play group and I hear groans when it hits the table!
Any thoughts on the new set what might help us?
The upside to Impersonator is that it can copy a PW (I mean, really, there are so few enchantments worth spending 3-4 mana for a copy...), but even PWs worth copying are few and far between in EDH because of how "fragile" they are. ("Fragile," by which I mean, difficult to protect and easily succumbing to damage.)
Still, if it's what you have and you don't want to run out for a specific card, go ahead and use it. It's not a huge difference between the two.
Also, I will be doing a Khans update. Because this set has a lot of multi-coloured cards as well as a lot of cards that might see play, I'm going to venture outside just the W and U reviews to cover multi-coloured cards, especially new legends, that *I* think will pose the greatest threats to the deck... and how to deal with them. If I neglect to talk about something that you'd like to discuss, please bring it up! Sharing opinions is part of the function of this forum
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Awesome! I'm glad you like the deck.
Isn't it nice to have the win-spell be uncounterable? I'm also assuming you had Enchanted Evening out...:P
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
yea. i drew the nuts that game. i was able to get everything out. i was playing against damia group hug (weird i know), slivers and the naya precon deck. only mistake i did was someone destroyed all non basic lands and could search to get basics. i had aven mindcensor in hand and didn't cast it :/
Dig Through Time seems alright... Delve is a very good keyword ability, and I'm glad that Blue has gotten some access to it. However, it still is an expensive draw spell (7, or 6 with GAA4); and you don't even get to keep everything you dig for. At that point, I'd rather run Sphinx's Revelation because you get to completely replenish your hand and gain some life, which pisses off opponents like no other ;P Actually, since I've picked up a Sphinx's Revelation before returning to Japan, I've been looking for a card to cut for it, but I just can't seem to cut anything... (as usual XP). Again, though, if you find a card that works well for you, by all means run it
I like to think this is a pretty competitive deck already. It can hang with -- and win against -- some of the most competitive generals WotC has released, including Azami, Zur, Orolo, Edric, and Scion. (These are the generals that are in my meta, you see... I have to put up with them all the time XP) If you're looking to make this into a hyper-competitive deck (by which I mean t3-4 combo), you're going to have to turn it into a dedicated combo deck with control as back-up. That would mean an almost complete re-vamp of the list, since my version of the deck is the opposite: a control deck with combo as back-up.
On this thread, we've already discussed a few ways of making combo elements more present in the deck, but I'll list those and a few more options here for the sake of a nice, clean summary of combo options.
1.
Obviously, Tunnel Vision works well with the tuck spells (Spell Crumple, Hinder, Condemn) already, so Spin into Myth merely provides another means of tucking. (For dedicated combo, repetition is very necessary.) Ethereal Usher is the typical search/tutor for this combo.
2.
This combo can go off t2-3 if you have the right cards in hand. Both elements are easily tutor-able (Academy Rector can get you Rest in Peace, and Enlightened Tutor can fetch either). The main problem with this combo is that it can only take out one opponent at a time. Once you take out the most threatening player, everyone will be gunning for you and will try to remove RiP and/or Helm. If you managed to Temporal Mastery for 2 turns in a row, you can kill off 2 opponents, but in 4-5-man pods, which is typical in EDH tourneys, you'll still have to handle 1 or 2 other players. Clearly, go for the strong players first. After that, just be careful: you never know who will have stuff in hand to break your combo pieces.
Now that I think about it, Rest in Peace might be a suitable addition to combat graveyard shenanigans, in general. It will depend on the meta, though. My meta barely uses GY tricks and the ones that come up are easily dealt with. If there are a lot of GY issues where you play, seriously consider adding this card into your deck.
3.
The "original" GAA4 combo-win. It can still be disrupted, especially now that Bane of Progress is a thing, but it's pretty hard to break otherwise.
___
Those are the best combo options I can think of off the top of my head. For a complete list of other W/U/WU combos, please refer to the infinite combos database.
_______________________________________
Now, if you're going for the ultimate control deck, I'd say this is already pretty close (not to sound arrogant... :P). I've distilled this deck over many years into a very optimized and (I'd like to think) balanced blend of spell-control [countering and taxing elements] and board control [removal effects of all sorts and attack prevention]. There's also mana denial (Winter Orb and Sphere of Resistance, etc.).
The spell-control elements are intended to stop or prevent combo and other control decks from doing what they do, while the board-control inhibits aggro and other control decks from setting up. When you're going to make adjustments to the decklist, consider carefully which side your meta leans towards.
If cut-throat combo decks are running rampant, you'll want more cheap, even cantrip-y, counter-spells (Mana Leak, Faerie Trickery, and even Force Spike are handy here). Basically, anything to stop the combo as early/quickly as possible without spending a lot of mana to do it.
If aggro decks are popular where you are, first think about what kind of aggro it is: swarm or Voltron. (Yes, there are more balanced aggro lists, but really, they mostly fall into these categories... Kaalia is a whole 'nother beast and we've discussed how to ham-string her earlier on this thread... even on this very page [roughly pg. 6, for reference].) If you're dealing with a swarm, you'll want more global removal: Catastrophe, Rout, and Fated Retribution. All three are excellent, as they have enough versatility (in either their targets or timing) to be of use. If you're dealing with a lot of Voltron decks, you'll want a lot of spot removal so that you'll have something in hand when they go to equip their Voltron with Lightning Greaves. Once their Voltron is equipped/enchanted with something to make it un-targetable/indestructible, you'll probably have to rely on board wipes, especially Cyclonic Rift to stave them off.
No matter what kind of decks you're playing against though, I STRONGLY recommend you maintaining some sort of balance between your control elements: taxing, mana denial, spell-control, and board-control. One will necessarily have to take priority in order to create a strong backbone/theme for the GAA4 deck, but the others should definitely be present -- even to a minimal degree -- for solidifying and maintaining control throughout the game. Finding the balance between these elements will be up to you, based on your meta, your playstyle, and your personal preferences/budget.
Cheers and good luck! Let me know how things are going. Post a decklist and/or game report here so that other GAA4 players can see what works and what isn't so great. Info sharing is one of the main reasons the Internet is so fabulous and this MtG community is one of the best ways to communicate useful information to each other. Let's exploit it! ;D
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB