What happens when you Crack Jar twice in one turn? Which hand do you get, the first or second?
You order the triggers and keep the hand you choose and toss the other one.
Incidentally, had a great game last night, but I felt a little bad. I utterly destroyed my 2 opponents (5c Silvers and an Oona Mill). The poor Silver pilot had a land and a prophetic prism in play at the end of the game. Oona
s pilot had some land and no creatures - thank you goblin assassin. Oh, and I got hit with a Traumatize for 32 cards.. ouch!
Used Goblin Welder and Kiki for ridiculousness. Was just not fair, though I was 18 cards away from being milled out.
Gaka, you are a gentlemen and a scholar for inventing this pile of fun!
Our shop's first week of our new league had Thraximundar (a deck tuned for blue matchups), Edric (mostly weenies with U/G goodstuff), and me (Norin).
Now I had to take out a few cards so I wouldnt get -4 for wrecking manabases, but it was still a blast. I actually decked the Thraximundar player and got the Edric player at 3 life. Everyone had a good time, even with all the shenanigans!
Private Mod Note
():
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EDH:
Mayael, the Anima: Six levels of fat
Norin the Wary: Spreading the gospel and trolliness of Gaka
Child of Alara: Vast amounts of land and one angry baby!
Karn, Silver Golem: Welcome to the machine
Mistform Ultimus: and the quest for more blue lords!
Thada Adel: and the Theivius Merfolkus
Hi Gaka. I'm building a red deck and I'm curious about cloudstone curio. What's it's main use other than reusing etb effects? Thank you.
Hey nutterbutter,
I'm not speaking for Gaka, but I can tell you about how I've used cloudstone curio. It's awesome in this deck:
Both Kiki and Kher Keep make this nearly broken. Also, as you mentioned CITP effects are exceptional with it.. ie Goblin Settler, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Matron, etc.
I save my important dudes with kiki and kher all the time.. in response to a plow or board wipe.
Also combos really well with Norin. The card is GREAT!
Hey nutterbutter,
I'm not speaking for Gaka, but I can tell you about how I've used cloudstone curio. It's awesome in this deck:
Both Kiki and Kher Keep make this nearly broken. Also, as you mentioned CITP effects are exceptional with it.. ie Goblin Settler, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Matron, etc.
I save my important dudes with kiki and kher all the time.. in response to a plow or board wipe.
Also combos really well with Norin. The card is GREAT!
Hope that helped.
its defenetly a finesse card rather than a aggro card, if its your playstyle than it would be great, for me i dont run it but it is a good card in here
Hmmm i wonder what is peoples views of Faithless Looting in Norin now.
The best I can say is... maybe. Now, if it was a Goblin merfolk Looter, I wouldn't be saying "maybe" ..but as it stands, Faithless Might not be enough to be able to put into the deck.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Have you considered any of the return to your hand Viashinos? It seems like they'd work almost like extra Norins, but with a few twists both good and bad. Sorry if you've covered this earlier, but I haven't read all 28 pages, just the primer mostly.
i have tested the viashinos, i truthfully love them as extra norins. espically with confusion... but i would staay with the cheep ones like 1 cmc and 2, maybe 3
Gaka, what do you think about the decklist and card ideas I posted above?
Past in flames, Charmbreaker, icy manipulator:
None of these are quite effective enough to be used in Norin. Past in Flames requires a very large investment of time and mana to use effectively, something that this deck can't really afford. PiF is also far superior in a grixis storm deck, where the rituals and cantrips can really add up into something capable of winning on the spot.
Charmbreaker doesn't have any targets I'd really like to recur, and there arent enough to ensure that Charmbreaker will actually recur anything. I also don't want to give such recursion away to my enemies, as that's kind of suicidal. A black/green deck can utilize it far better than I can, and I don't want to see Demonic Tutor every turn.
Icy Manipulator - simply not worth a spot in a multiplayer deck. Were this 1v1, I could see it being used to promote the stax agenda, but not here. Also, tapping down my own chamber seems like a really bad idea, as most of my tokens are actually generated on my opponent's turn. Why neuter myself willingly?
Have you considered any of the return to your hand Viashinos? It seems like they'd work almost like extra Norins, but with a few twists both good and bad. Sorry if you've covered this earlier, but I haven't read all 28 pages, just the primer mostly.
I say no to the Viashino simply because they require a constant influx of mana to be useful, and are only useful if I actually have an engine out for them to use. Norin, on the other hand, can be played turn 1 and then ignored until an engine does pop in, when he starts doing his magic free of charge. With such a mana-light deck (and thus something that relies on the paris mulligan to start well) viashino simply do not work.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I say no to the Viashino simply because they require a constant influx of mana to be useful, and are only useful if I actually have an engine out for them to use. Norin, on the other hand, can be played turn 1 and then ignored until an engine does pop in, when he starts doing his magic free of charge. With such a mana-light deck (and thus something that relies on the paris mulligan to start well) viashino simply do not work.
Yes it does take up mana. But A) u can pause whenever u want, B) early and extra damage, C) helps keep u from overextendung, and D) works awesome with most of the engines in the deck. Its all taste tho AND its extra flare, not mandetory to win at all. If your super aggro than yes
Thanks for your quick reply - here are a few other quick questions if you don't mind! I'm just looking to broaden my possible card pool to get what I can locally before having to resort to ordering online.
How well do living weapons synergize with the Norin engine enchantments, specifically Confusion in the Ranks? I was thinking of Mortarpod as an additional sac outlet and maybe Bonehoard since it has a low equip cost making it easier to "kill" the donated germ if it comes to it.
What do you think of Precursor Golem and the Wellspring artifacts as possible cards to run?
Thanks for your quick reply - here are a few other quick questions if you don't mind! I'm just looking to broaden my possible card pool to get what I can locally before having to resort to ordering online.
How well do living weapons synergize with the Norin engine enchantments, specifically Confusion in the Ranks? I was thinking of Mortarpod as an additional sac outlet and maybe Bonehoard since it has a low equip cost making it easier to "kill" the donated germ if it comes to it.
What do you think of Precursor Golem and the Wellspring artifacts as possible cards to run?
Confusion would also make you trade your equipment, making it hard to kill the germ by unequiping. That said, it is a cheap way to steal 2 permanents, but it's overall weak otherwise, so my gut feeling is that it's too situational and doesn't synergize enough with the rest of the deck.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of redundancy, but view it this way... Norin costs 1, you always have him anyways, and you never have to put more mana into him. He also comes back every turn, rather than only on yours. Glitterfang alone costs you R each turn, and is only useful once per round, on your turn. The viashino's are the same, but more expensive.
Splinter Twin and Elemental Mastery serve a bit different purpose, but there isn't as much that you want to drop them on is the issue.
All of the cards are viable, and fit the strategy, if you're looking to fill some gaps, but none leap out at me.
The biggest problem is keeping confusion in the ranks on the board. If it sticks you are golden, and you don't need any vashinos to start grabbing the best creatures on the battlefield. Norin is more than enough, and the kor land helps as well.
So much fun yesterday night with friends who didn't know this commander. First thought : "ughhh ?"
I played turn one : citadel + sol ring + sensei
Second turn : Norin
Turn 4 : Grip of Chaos --> at this point, it was the end of the game for my opponents.
After that I played Cloudstone culio, Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge, Memory Jar, Wheel of fortune, Skullclamp, etc
Confusion in the Ranks and Warstorm Surge at random.... so much laught.
They played Ulamog but nice random try before attacking phase with Helm of Possession and I get it. But they succeed to cast Fleshbag maraudeur.
The win combo was Insurrection and one shot kill with artisan of kozilek on the battlefield
Last comment from my friends : "Next time you play this deck I'll punch you (joke)" haha !
Have you thought at all about trying Mana Echoes as a mana engine? It would trigger off of Norin as well as having decent synergy with your goblins and Genesis Chamber.
Have you thought at all about trying Mana Echoes as a mana engine? It would trigger off of Norin as well as having decent synergy with your goblins and Genesis Chamber.
Norin wouldn't trigger Mana Echoes unless you use a bunch of Humans/Warriors.
Have you thought at all about trying Mana Echoes as a mana engine? It would trigger off of Norin as well as having decent synergy with your goblins and Genesis Chamber.
Yes, except 90% of the mana would be generated at the end step, when I have very little uses for it.
That's not to say the other 10% might not be useful. I do a lot of stuff mainphase with goblins and the like, extra mana could help.
I believe this was suggested a while ago but was dismissed because the deck wasn't yet as tuned as it is now. I really couldn't use it then. Now? It could be a viable addition to the deck.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Got my final cards in the mail today and made it out to the local shop for a couple games. Went 2-0 with Norin in a pair of three player games. It's hard for your opponents to come back from Sundering Titan followed by Wake of Destruction, heh. Kiki Jiki plus Precursor Golem is pretty good too. I didn't even get any major Norin engines out, just a Shaku.
One thing I noticed is that Pandemonium seemed like a dead card the one time I had it in hand since I was playing against an Oona deck who could put out tokens more regularly than I could. Since I also face a Rhys deck regularly, I was thinking about cutting it, but wanted to see what you've experienced.
One thing I noticed is that Pandemonium seemed like a dead card the one time I had it in hand since I was playing against an Oona deck who could put out tokens more regularly than I could. Since I also face a Rhys deck regularly, I was thinking about cutting it, but wanted to see what you've experienced.
Quite possibly the only time Pandemonium sucks is against opposing token decks. Other colors have much more reliable means of producing tokens (except for Genesis Chamber) and thus can more easily abuse it. However, it's also possible to use Pandemonium effectively before they get going to kill off their starting token makers and mana producers. Elves doesnt have a chance vs an early Pandemonium, but can use a late-game one to their own advantage. It's all in the wrist.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
You order the triggers and keep the hand you choose and toss the other one.
Incidentally, had a great game last night, but I felt a little bad. I utterly destroyed my 2 opponents (5c Silvers and an Oona Mill). The poor Silver pilot had a land and a prophetic prism in play at the end of the game. Oona
s pilot had some land and no creatures - thank you goblin assassin. Oh, and I got hit with a Traumatize for 32 cards.. ouch!
Used Goblin Welder and Kiki for ridiculousness. Was just not fair, though I was 18 cards away from being milled out.
My friends : "ughh ??!! Weak commander.... he can't attack dude !"
So much fun when I cast Norin + Confusion in the Ranks : "so this is the combo ??"
However I had difficulty against flying. Maybe put more instant destroy card ? or more tutor for a card in red (does it exist btw ?) ?
Thx for the fun btw Gaka
Our shop's first week of our new league had Thraximundar (a deck tuned for blue matchups), Edric (mostly weenies with U/G goodstuff), and me (Norin).
Now I had to take out a few cards so I wouldnt get -4 for wrecking manabases, but it was still a blast. I actually decked the Thraximundar player and got the Edric player at 3 life. Everyone had a good time, even with all the shenanigans!
Mayael, the Anima: Six levels of fat
Norin the Wary: Spreading the gospel and trolliness of Gaka
Child of Alara: Vast amounts of land and one angry baby!
Karn, Silver Golem: Welcome to the machine
Mistform Ultimus: and the quest for more blue lords!
Thada Adel: and the Theivius Merfolkus
1 Norin the Wary
Land - 33
1 Buried Ruin
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Great Furnace
1 Kher Keep
1 Scrying Sheets
27 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Planeswalkers - 1
1 Chandra Ablaze
Sorceries - 12
1 Aftershock
1 Gamble
1 Icefall
1 Incendiary Command
1 Insurrection
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Ruination
1 Shattering Spree
1 Wake of Destruction
1 Warp World
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Wheel of Fortune
Instants - 8
1 Chaos Warp
1 Fork
1 Pyroblast
1 Radiate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Reverberate
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Word of Seizing
1 Blood Moon
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Goblin Assault
1 Goblin Bomb
1 Grip of Chaos
1 Pandemonium
1 Planar Chaos
1 Stranglehold
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Warstorm Surge
Creatures - 16
1 Duplicant
1 Goblin Assassin
1 Goblin Marshal
1 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Recruiter
1 Goblin Welder
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Moggcatcher
1 Outrage Shaman
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Caged Sun
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Coalition Relic
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Crystal Ball
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Genesis Chamber
1 Helm of Possession
1 Memory Jar
1 Mimic Vat
1 Mind Stone
1 Mind's Eye
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ruby Medallion
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
1 Thran Dynamo
Also, Charmbreakers - also tested and loosing them to a steal effect is just awful and they got a "no" as well.
Thank You Rivenor/Miraculous Recovery Studios!
GGGSKamahl's Band of Monstosities SGGG
RRRSFreaki-Kiki, The Goblin DoucheSRRR
BBGGNath, Raper of Hands and Spewer of Tokens!GGBB
BUGDamia, Sage of AnswersBUG
WIPs
BBBXiahou Dun, the Bitter Stax Enabling BastardBBB
On Break
BBBSKagemaro, First to RetireSBBB
BBBThe Walking DeadBBB
UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
Hey nutterbutter,
I'm not speaking for Gaka, but I can tell you about how I've used cloudstone curio. It's awesome in this deck:
Both Kiki and Kher Keep make this nearly broken. Also, as you mentioned CITP effects are exceptional with it.. ie Goblin Settler, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Matron, etc.
I save my important dudes with kiki and kher all the time.. in response to a plow or board wipe.
Also combos really well with Norin. The card is GREAT!
Hope that helped.
its defenetly a finesse card rather than a aggro card, if its your playstyle than it would be great, for me i dont run it but it is a good card in here
Vi - Apollo - Armory - Sokai - Kylar - Gerr - CT -Dmitri
Amaya - Lilith - Lazarus - Yoko the Fox - Eli
Assume Nothing."
The best I can say is... maybe. Now, if it was a Goblin merfolk Looter, I wouldn't be saying "maybe" ..but as it stands, Faithless Might not be enough to be able to put into the deck.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Vi - Apollo - Armory - Sokai - Kylar - Gerr - CT -Dmitri
Amaya - Lilith - Lazarus - Yoko the Fox - Eli
Assume Nothing."
Past in flames, Charmbreaker, icy manipulator:
None of these are quite effective enough to be used in Norin. Past in Flames requires a very large investment of time and mana to use effectively, something that this deck can't really afford. PiF is also far superior in a grixis storm deck, where the rituals and cantrips can really add up into something capable of winning on the spot.
Charmbreaker doesn't have any targets I'd really like to recur, and there arent enough to ensure that Charmbreaker will actually recur anything. I also don't want to give such recursion away to my enemies, as that's kind of suicidal. A black/green deck can utilize it far better than I can, and I don't want to see Demonic Tutor every turn.
Icy Manipulator - simply not worth a spot in a multiplayer deck. Were this 1v1, I could see it being used to promote the stax agenda, but not here. Also, tapping down my own chamber seems like a really bad idea, as most of my tokens are actually generated on my opponent's turn. Why neuter myself willingly?
I say no to the Viashino simply because they require a constant influx of mana to be useful, and are only useful if I actually have an engine out for them to use. Norin, on the other hand, can be played turn 1 and then ignored until an engine does pop in, when he starts doing his magic free of charge. With such a mana-light deck (and thus something that relies on the paris mulligan to start well) viashino simply do not work.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Yes it does take up mana. But A) u can pause whenever u want, B) early and extra damage, C) helps keep u from overextendung, and D) works awesome with most of the engines in the deck. Its all taste tho AND its extra flare, not mandetory to win at all. If your super aggro than yes
Vi - Apollo - Armory - Sokai - Kylar - Gerr - CT -Dmitri
Amaya - Lilith - Lazarus - Yoko the Fox - Eli
Assume Nothing."
How well do living weapons synergize with the Norin engine enchantments, specifically Confusion in the Ranks? I was thinking of Mortarpod as an additional sac outlet and maybe Bonehoard since it has a low equip cost making it easier to "kill" the donated germ if it comes to it.
What do you think of Precursor Golem and the Wellspring artifacts as possible cards to run?
Confusion would also make you trade your equipment, making it hard to kill the germ by unequiping. That said, it is a cheap way to steal 2 permanents, but it's overall weak otherwise, so my gut feeling is that it's too situational and doesn't synergize enough with the rest of the deck.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of redundancy, but view it this way... Norin costs 1, you always have him anyways, and you never have to put more mana into him. He also comes back every turn, rather than only on yours. Glitterfang alone costs you R each turn, and is only useful once per round, on your turn. The viashino's are the same, but more expensive.
Splinter Twin and Elemental Mastery serve a bit different purpose, but there isn't as much that you want to drop them on is the issue.
All of the cards are viable, and fit the strategy, if you're looking to fill some gaps, but none leap out at me.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I played turn one : citadel + sol ring + sensei
Second turn : Norin
Turn 4 : Grip of Chaos --> at this point, it was the end of the game for my opponents.
After that I played Cloudstone culio, Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge, Memory Jar, Wheel of fortune, Skullclamp, etc
Confusion in the Ranks and Warstorm Surge at random.... so much laught.
They played Ulamog but nice random try before attacking phase with Helm of Possession and I get it. But they succeed to cast Fleshbag maraudeur.
The win combo was Insurrection and one shot kill with artisan of kozilek on the battlefield
Last comment from my friends : "Next time you play this deck I'll punch you (joke)" haha !
Norin wouldn't trigger Mana Echoes unless you use a bunch of Humans/Warriors.
Norin the WaryRW
Legacy
BurnR
It actually triggers for 1 since it does count Norin.
Yes, except 90% of the mana would be generated at the end step, when I have very little uses for it.
That's not to say the other 10% might not be useful. I do a lot of stuff mainphase with goblins and the like, extra mana could help.
I believe this was suggested a while ago but was dismissed because the deck wasn't yet as tuned as it is now. I really couldn't use it then. Now? It could be a viable addition to the deck.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
One thing I noticed is that Pandemonium seemed like a dead card the one time I had it in hand since I was playing against an Oona deck who could put out tokens more regularly than I could. Since I also face a Rhys deck regularly, I was thinking about cutting it, but wanted to see what you've experienced.
Quite possibly the only time Pandemonium sucks is against opposing token decks. Other colors have much more reliable means of producing tokens (except for Genesis Chamber) and thus can more easily abuse it. However, it's also possible to use Pandemonium effectively before they get going to kill off their starting token makers and mana producers. Elves doesnt have a chance vs an early Pandemonium, but can use a late-game one to their own advantage. It's all in the wrist.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary