4-mana? Uhh... I always thought it was 5+. I suppose there are some cards at 4 mana that I would feel would be win-more. The 1 mana cost for the trigger I think makes it arguably comparable to Rings of Brighthearth in other decks, which I definitely don't feel is win-more most of the time. I'm still on the side of "This might be worth it," though I will also be testing it, and if it is just win-more, cutting it. I think it's definitely at least near the line, if not straddling it, but it's an interesting question.
Well it is arguably in the 5 mana bucket. It may have a cmc of 4 but it does nothing without further mana investment.
True. I think it's definitely on the line; where it starts doing something potentially very significant at 5 mana.
What do you guys think of Thopter Engineer? At 3 mana its definitely not the most efficient creature generator we have. But the token is a flying artifact and the creature is a haste enabler for all artifacts. Seems worth consideration at least.
Also what an awesome uncommon, drafting this is gonna be so fun
I agree that it's a consideration given the haste. Not so sure if it's runnable, though.
The problem with Foundry is that you're paying 5 mana plus the actual land (so effectively six) for only a pair of fliers. And you can only realistically do this once. Let's also point out that this land produces colorless instead of red. It's just not worth it.
Flameshadow Conjuring could be potentially good, yet i feel that it has a better home in Kresh or some other "creature matters" deck.
I don't feel that this is really the case; it's another one of those cards that when the dust settles, gives us a lot more output of useful triggers to work with.
Well the rule has always been when they cost that much they should be winning by themselves. That clearly does not meet that requirement. At minimum it requires something with etb triggers in play so you can duplicate Norin. And extra red mana every time you want to use it. And probably playing other creatures as well to duplicate them too.
All in all feels very win more to me. But gaka seems to like it so I'm sure he'll test the hell out of it and give us a full report.
Gaka still plays Conjurer's Closet according to the front page. This is a win-more card.
Each players have their own preferences when playing a deck. I can play Jareth in my mono-white only because it's the first rare I opened in a pack, even if it's not really good. It all comes down to personal choices and this is what defines the format. This is why EDH is so cool. If you like abusing Myr Battlesphere, then you will like the interaction with Closet and Flameshadow, especially with Ogre Battledriver and Kiki-Jiki.
Pia and Kiran is the only interesting card in this set in my opinion. It's a really good card, it's just a matter of theme/flavour at that point, because it's definitely superior to the 4-CMC goblin alternative, and it can give serious competition to Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander too. I'm really starting to consider it, flying creatures are just good in this format, and I probably don't need to have that many tutorable goblins doing nearly all the same thing. It also generates artifacts, which is also a good thing in this deck. Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter and Gamble, and the activated ability is just a really good and relevant bonus too. This could make Ugin's Nexus more playable you know, having Welder and Daretti already.
I play Conjurer's Closet because it's awesome. Something something value, something something artifact.
Pie and Cake are really the most interesting card in terms of what we value the most. It's a token generator that does something else. Those tokens fly, which as mentioned are absolutely huge, and those tokens can be sacrificed for The Greater Good (the greater good) in a fiery ball of fire. I really do have a certain eloquence about me.
So far as the "win by itself" rule - Pie and Cake definitely count. Dropping it gives you instant access to on-demand removal that synergizes with Confusion in the Ranks and Genesis Chamber. Basically it's a human Siege-Gang. The more I talk about it the more I want it now, and the hungrier I get...
My biggest question for it is how the deck will progress from here. We're slowly, slowly approaching to an artifact renewal theme, and I wonder if this style is superior to Krenko's goblin spam backup-main-plan.
In terms of Flameshadow's usefulness - Once again we're confronted with the question of "does it win by itself" ... the answer is certainly no, but the answer in magical christmas land is yes. What it does is add double the value to all of your threats, of which we run many. Arguably the constant cost is a huge downside, but I really like the potential gains. See Closet.
I'm not going to outright dismiss it until I try it, but damn if I don't like what it can do.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I thought it was too slow when I first saw it. I still think it might be but I'll admit I missed that interaction. An every turn wayfarer's bauble is a bit tempting. A little risky though, if you equip Norin in turn 3 and your opponent chooses then to play an instant they were gonna play anyway then you basically lose your turn.
Any thoughts on Sword of the Animist? The trigger is on attack, so you still get the land if you equip to Norin and swing.
This is the wrong kind of ramp for Norin. You do get the trigger when attacking with Norin, but you need to spend mana to do so. Early on, that mana is better spent advancing the board. Later on, you don't need the mana.
This would be ok in something like Godo, but for Norin i think it's too cute of an interaction for this specific build. Other than the ramp, SoA doesn't really do anything useful. The +1/+1 isn't gamebreaking and it simply costs too much to get going. Four mana for the first land? Kinda steep.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I forsook Norin the Wary for a long time, but I have decided to rejoin the church. Tuesday night, I put Norin back together in preparation for my shop's Wednesday EDH night.
I long said that Racketeer was only a placeholder until something better came along, and it sure did. The second cut, Trading Post, is one that will remain on the "still good" list forever, and might pop back in at some point. In fact, the way that I'm envisioning the next few sets, it might be sooner rather than later.
Coming in is Feldon and Daretti from the commander set. Both of these guys give us some insane utility for effective costs. In a chaotic game, just one well-timed revive could be what you need to win. Both of these are making Myr Battlesphere look holy moly attractive. I anticipate this to come at some point in the future, if there is a good enough reason to drop some of the goblin package.
No Flameshadow Conjuring! Tokens are too important and you don't get as much use out of this as you would hope.
This change is partially obvious, and partially strange. A lot of people are in love with Mind's Eye. Yes, you can do crazy things with Honor-Worn Shaku, but the way things are going, it's harder to justify a 5 mana artifact that doesn't actually impact the board itself. There are arguments to be made about Conjuror's Closet, yes, but for now, it's good to go in my book. That may change by the next set or two, or if someone can really persuade me. It's also harder to justify holding mana up to draw when we have so many more effects to play. I'm losing less interest in mind's eye by the second.
So let's discuss Pie and Cake. S/He is basically a beetleback chief with benefits. Those benefits include flying artifact tokens and the ability to use those tokens and other artifacts as lethal weapons. Really, it's a sexy card. At four mana, you're getting a ton of value for it. At 2 power, it's tutorable. There was no way this wasn't going into the deck.
So, the future. Where is this deck going?
With the printing and inclusion of cards like feldon and daretti, it's getting harder to get by with "just" tokens. Many of the effects that we used to swear by are starting to lose value in comparison to dropping something like a Myr Battlesphere. I mean, there are now two more ways to revive it, and there is so much synergy in the deck. It's looking really, really tasty... but for now I'm not going to go there.
What needs to happen is a discussion - are goblins the way to go, or are specifically useful goblins the key? Is casting Goblin Recruiter better than casting something with a useful effect now?
Obviously Wizards needs to print some useful things in order to make this reality, but we've been well on the way for two years. This being said, I still want to see about dropping the curve even lower. I want to be able to make full use out of stuff like Cloudstone Curio, and less of things like Tuktuk Scrapper or Aftershock. (two or three cc goblin artifact etb killer please)
Right now the four and five mana points are the points where Norin's cards start to do scary things alone - but we've still got a lot of one and two mana tricks that outshine them. It's these tricks that I want to focus on, rather than dropping standard 4-drop useful card... but I also want to have room for a bomb that changes the outcome. Wizards, get to printing interesting cards for me. Seriously.
In any case - that's where we stand as of now!
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Gaka you didn't mention Outpost Siege or impact tremors and i don't see them in your list, did you overlook these or did you not find them to be worthwhile perhaps?
Gaka you didn't mention Outpost Siege or impact tremors and i don't see them in your list, did you overlook these or did you not find them to be worthwhile perhaps?
The style I'm currently playing doesn't like outpost siege. It's too slow as a draw engine and not powerful enough as a damage source.
Impact Tremors, I was not aware of... It fits in real nice with the "low cost" goings. I could see playing it, as two mana for global threat is pretty nice. I think that right now it's not the card I want, but I am always prepared to be wrong.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Absolutely not. None of the effects for using Dash are effective enough or cheap enough to work in a multiplayer deck. The biggest issue with dashing is that it's a persistent cost. In the case of Vaultbreaker, it's three mana per turn to loot unless you want to just cast it. In that case, why not just tap Rummaging Goblin?
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Absolutely not. None of the effects for using Dash are effective enough or cheap enough to work in a multiplayer deck. The biggest issue with dashing is that it's a persistent cost. In the case of Vaultbreaker, it's three mana per turn to loot unless you want to just cast it. In that case, why not just tap Rummaging Goblin?
Yea I agree. You should consider trying out Impact Tremors though Gaka, it's seemed really effective for its cost in my testing. It either hurts people a lot or sucks up the enchantment removal they were hoping to save for Confusion in the Ranks. I agree with you on Outpost Siege though, too expensive and not powerful enough.
Gaka you didn't mention Outpost Siege or impact tremors and i don't see them in your list, did you overlook these or did you not find them to be worthwhile perhaps?
The style I'm currently playing doesn't like outpost siege. It's too slow as a draw engine and not powerful enough as a damage source.
Impact Tremors, I was not aware of... It fits in real nice with the "low cost" goings. I could see playing it, as two mana for global threat is pretty nice. I think that right now it's not the card I want, but I am always prepared to be wrong.
Yeah, I'm probably cutting it, and I was actually running a sac outlet even.
Oh I forgot, what about Commune with Lava Gaka? There were a few heated debates about that card on here but it looks like it didn't make your list. Did you reject it?
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I guess it's a thought. I'm not running the closet. But you do have a point that there are three sac outlets, and Norin himself. I'll try and see in a few more games.
Oh I forgot, what about Commune with Lava Gaka? There were a few heated debates about that card on here but it looks like it didn't make your list. Did you reject it?
The problem with Commune with Lava is that it is at its best when you have more mana than you know what to do with. If you've got six billion mana and this in hand, then hell yeah. Until that point, however, you get to stare at it with distaste. Casting it for one isn't useful. Casting it for two sucked up four mana to exile two cards you may or may not want to play now but might want to later. At the very least the cards stick around until the end of the next turn, so it's not completely useless.
If you're playing a UR storm, this card is probably crazy useful. You can cast this for some amount at the end of turn and go into the combo turn with another X cards to play with. But we're not a combo deck. This effect isn't useful to us.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Oh I forgot, what about Commune with Lava Gaka? There were a few heated debates about that card on here but it looks like it didn't make your list. Did you reject it?
The problem with Commune with Lava is that it is at its best when you have more mana than you know what to do with. If you've got six billion mana and this in hand, then hell yeah. Until that point, however, you get to stare at it with distaste. Casting it for one isn't useful. Casting it for two sucked up four mana to exile two cards you may or may not want to play now but might want to later. At the very least the cards stick around until the end of the next turn, so it's not completely useless.
If you're playing a UR storm, this card is probably crazy useful. You can cast this for some amount at the end of turn and go into the combo turn with another X cards to play with. But we're not a combo deck. This effect isn't useful to us.
why would you ever cast this for x=2? You want to cast that thing when it's the last card in your hand, and you should already have at least 7-8 mana by that time (mid-game) or billions (late-game). In both cases, this should give you 2 land drops and at least 1 spell, if not more, to cast. Let's say you have 7 mana and cast this for X=5 in your main phase. If you hit 2 lands, you get to play them and have 3 or less spells to play in your next turn. I highly doubt that you really need the 3 spells, usually the best of the 3 will do.
Then, in a late game situation where you have 12-14 mana available, you cast this for X=7 to 9, so you have 3 mana left plus your land drop of the turn. You can then play immediately a 4-drop (4-drops represent nearly 25% of the deck), pass the turn, and play a couple more spells the turn after. And that's if you don't have a mana doubler by then. You exiled a Wheel of Fortune? You can cast it too and still use the remaining exiled cards afterwards.
It's really good honestly, red can have some lack of gas sometimes lategame and wheel effects also help your opponents (besides a well timed Jar or Wheel+Chandra's -3). Commune with Lava does not.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I agree with dnLL: Commune with Lava has realy done stuff for me. I've never been staring at it in disgust and the biggest drawback to me is that my opponents can see what's exiled. So far it's proven to be better than Memory Jar which I just can't seem to get working.
What needs to happen is a discussion - are goblins the way to go, or are specifically useful goblins the key?
Let's start that. I'm very interested in moving away from the Goblin shenanigans. People in my playgroup tend to insult Norin as a Goblin Deck, which I always deny. The standard reaction is: "then get it working without all the Gobbo's" (they especially hate, and I mean really hate, Goblin Assassin. So I've started looking for cards (mainly artifacts, because Welder and Daretti and stuff) that do what some of the Goblins do, like producing tokens, and have come up with a first version of a shortlist for this.
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer. Always loved this one and there will be artifacts that we don't want to lose or become useless. Looking forward to testing it.
Sword of the Meek. Should be able to return a lot. I've been having dreams of having this, Slobad, Genesis Chamber and Norin online.
Mana Echoes. Has been mentioned before I think, but in a more artifact-oriented build this would become so much better. The new thopter-building creatures in Origins share a creature type with Norin, too: Ghirapur Gearcrafter, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer (all three are an option).
Precursor Golem. What? Yes. It's costly, I'll give you that. But I kinda like the idea of playing this with Warstorm Surge online, being able to copy it or blink it also means value. Will probably disappoint me, but I like squeezing value out of crappy cards.
EDIT: Some Goblins are just too good to remove though. Welder needs to stay, Kiki-Jiki too of course. And there are probably more.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Seems like way too much work to make a bad card do something. Myr Retriver would probably be waaay better (and his Cousin Junk Diver too).
Yeah. Forgot to mention those somehow. And I agree with your opinion on Myr Servitor, but also think it's worth testing. If anything, it's a nice drop for 1.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
oh i also forgot, i don't know if anyone else mentioned this card as an inclusion Myriad Landscape? land that ramps you and thins, plays nice with crucible of worlds also. What do you guys think?
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True. I think it's definitely on the line; where it starts doing something potentially very significant at 5 mana.
I agree that it's a consideration given the haste. Not so sure if it's runnable, though.
The problem with Foundry is that you're paying 5 mana plus the actual land (so effectively six) for only a pair of fliers. And you can only realistically do this once. Let's also point out that this land produces colorless instead of red. It's just not worth it.
I play Conjurer's Closet because it's awesome. Something something value, something something artifact.
Pie and Cake are really the most interesting card in terms of what we value the most. It's a token generator that does something else. Those tokens fly, which as mentioned are absolutely huge, and those tokens can be sacrificed for The Greater Good (the greater good) in a fiery ball of fire. I really do have a certain eloquence about me.
So far as the "win by itself" rule - Pie and Cake definitely count. Dropping it gives you instant access to on-demand removal that synergizes with Confusion in the Ranks and Genesis Chamber. Basically it's a human Siege-Gang. The more I talk about it the more I want it now, and the hungrier I get...
My biggest question for it is how the deck will progress from here. We're slowly, slowly approaching to an artifact renewal theme, and I wonder if this style is superior to Krenko's goblin spam backup-main-plan.
In terms of Flameshadow's usefulness - Once again we're confronted with the question of "does it win by itself" ... the answer is certainly no, but the answer in magical christmas land is yes. What it does is add double the value to all of your threats, of which we run many. Arguably the constant cost is a huge downside, but I really like the potential gains. See Closet.
I'm not going to outright dismiss it until I try it, but damn if I don't like what it can do.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I've yet to read all the thread, but what were your thoughts on the goblin welder planeswalker?
What would you remove for it? A mana rock?
Yup, He's in there. Daretti is sweet.
This is the wrong kind of ramp for Norin. You do get the trigger when attacking with Norin, but you need to spend mana to do so. Early on, that mana is better spent advancing the board. Later on, you don't need the mana.
This would be ok in something like Godo, but for Norin i think it's too cute of an interaction for this specific build. Other than the ramp, SoA doesn't really do anything useful. The +1/+1 isn't gamebreaking and it simply costs too much to get going. Four mana for the first land? Kinda steep.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I forsook Norin the Wary for a long time, but I have decided to rejoin the church. Tuesday night, I put Norin back together in preparation for my shop's Wednesday EDH night.
It was glorious. Going third in a pod with Krenko, Mob Boss, Maelstrom Wanderer, and Geist of Saint Traft I was able to curve Norin > Impact Tremors > Honor-Worn Shaku > Tuktuk Scrapper (blowing up Geist's Umezawa's Jitte) > Purphoros, God of the Forge. Luckily, Geist and Krenko focused mainly on Wanderer until he was dead, then Geist shifted focus to Krenko due to his fast-growing board state. I was then able to swing for game when Geist was at 5 life.
It feels good to be back.
Two of the changes are actually old ones - but I left for parts unknown before I got the chance to update the front. Those are:
+ Feldon of the Third Path
+ Daretti, Scrap Savant
- Trading Post
- Viashino Racketeer
I long said that Racketeer was only a placeholder until something better came along, and it sure did. The second cut, Trading Post, is one that will remain on the "still good" list forever, and might pop back in at some point. In fact, the way that I'm envisioning the next few sets, it might be sooner rather than later.
Coming in is Feldon and Daretti from the commander set. Both of these guys give us some insane utility for effective costs. In a chaotic game, just one well-timed revive could be what you need to win. Both of these are making Myr Battlesphere look holy moly attractive. I anticipate this to come at some point in the future, if there is a good enough reason to drop some of the goblin package.
But that's only two changes! What's the third?
+ Pia and Kiran Nalaar
- Mind's Eye
No Flameshadow Conjuring! Tokens are too important and you don't get as much use out of this as you would hope.
This change is partially obvious, and partially strange. A lot of people are in love with Mind's Eye. Yes, you can do crazy things with Honor-Worn Shaku, but the way things are going, it's harder to justify a 5 mana artifact that doesn't actually impact the board itself. There are arguments to be made about Conjuror's Closet, yes, but for now, it's good to go in my book. That may change by the next set or two, or if someone can really persuade me. It's also harder to justify holding mana up to draw when we have so many more effects to play. I'm losing less interest in mind's eye by the second.
So let's discuss Pie and Cake. S/He is basically a beetleback chief with benefits. Those benefits include flying artifact tokens and the ability to use those tokens and other artifacts as lethal weapons. Really, it's a sexy card. At four mana, you're getting a ton of value for it. At 2 power, it's tutorable. There was no way this wasn't going into the deck.
So, the future. Where is this deck going?
With the printing and inclusion of cards like feldon and daretti, it's getting harder to get by with "just" tokens. Many of the effects that we used to swear by are starting to lose value in comparison to dropping something like a Myr Battlesphere. I mean, there are now two more ways to revive it, and there is so much synergy in the deck. It's looking really, really tasty... but for now I'm not going to go there.
What needs to happen is a discussion - are goblins the way to go, or are specifically useful goblins the key? Is casting Goblin Recruiter better than casting something with a useful effect now?
Obviously Wizards needs to print some useful things in order to make this reality, but we've been well on the way for two years. This being said, I still want to see about dropping the curve even lower. I want to be able to make full use out of stuff like Cloudstone Curio, and less of things like Tuktuk Scrapper or Aftershock. (two or three cc goblin artifact etb killer please)
Right now the four and five mana points are the points where Norin's cards start to do scary things alone - but we've still got a lot of one and two mana tricks that outshine them. It's these tricks that I want to focus on, rather than dropping standard 4-drop useful card... but I also want to have room for a bomb that changes the outcome. Wizards, get to printing interesting cards for me. Seriously.
In any case - that's where we stand as of now!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
The style I'm currently playing doesn't like outpost siege. It's too slow as a draw engine and not powerful enough as a damage source.
Impact Tremors, I was not aware of... It fits in real nice with the "low cost" goings. I could see playing it, as two mana for global threat is pretty nice. I think that right now it's not the card I want, but I am always prepared to be wrong.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Absolutely not. None of the effects for using Dash are effective enough or cheap enough to work in a multiplayer deck. The biggest issue with dashing is that it's a persistent cost. In the case of Vaultbreaker, it's three mana per turn to loot unless you want to just cast it. In that case, why not just tap Rummaging Goblin?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Yea I agree. You should consider trying out Impact Tremors though Gaka, it's seemed really effective for its cost in my testing. It either hurts people a lot or sucks up the enchantment removal they were hoping to save for Confusion in the Ranks. I agree with you on Outpost Siege though, too expensive and not powerful enough.
Yeah, I'm probably cutting it, and I was actually running a sac outlet even.
Something like Siege-Gang Commander or Pia and Kiran Nalaar? Honestly, both Impact Tremors and Outpost Siege deserve to be in every Norin list. I was skeptical at first, but they're good. Even more if you think that the creature density is high enough to play Conjurer's Closet (which works nicely with Outpost Siege again).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I guess it's a thought. I'm not running the closet. But you do have a point that there are three sac outlets, and Norin himself. I'll try and see in a few more games.
The problem with Commune with Lava is that it is at its best when you have more mana than you know what to do with. If you've got six billion mana and this in hand, then hell yeah. Until that point, however, you get to stare at it with distaste. Casting it for one isn't useful. Casting it for two sucked up four mana to exile two cards you may or may not want to play now but might want to later. At the very least the cards stick around until the end of the next turn, so it's not completely useless.
If you're playing a UR storm, this card is probably crazy useful. You can cast this for some amount at the end of turn and go into the combo turn with another X cards to play with. But we're not a combo deck. This effect isn't useful to us.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Then, in a late game situation where you have 12-14 mana available, you cast this for X=7 to 9, so you have 3 mana left plus your land drop of the turn. You can then play immediately a 4-drop (4-drops represent nearly 25% of the deck), pass the turn, and play a couple more spells the turn after. And that's if you don't have a mana doubler by then. You exiled a Wheel of Fortune? You can cast it too and still use the remaining exiled cards afterwards.
It's really good honestly, red can have some lack of gas sometimes lategame and wheel effects also help your opponents (besides a well timed Jar or Wheel+Chandra's -3). Commune with Lava does not.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That.
Let's start that. I'm very interested in moving away from the Goblin shenanigans. People in my playgroup tend to insult Norin as a Goblin Deck, which I always deny. The standard reaction is: "then get it working without all the Gobbo's" (they especially hate, and I mean really hate, Goblin Assassin. So I've started looking for cards (mainly artifacts, because Welder and Daretti and stuff) that do what some of the Goblins do, like producing tokens, and have come up with a first version of a shortlist for this.
Myr Servitor. Has the potential of being a second Squee, Goblin Nabob if you're able to copy it with Feldon of the Third Path. I intend on testing Mimic Vat and Prototype Portal too. That, or you loot or chump it. Oh, and it's a weird card in Commander which I definately like.
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer. Always loved this one and there will be artifacts that we don't want to lose or become useless. Looking forward to testing it.
Sword of the Meek. Should be able to return a lot. I've been having dreams of having this, Slobad, Genesis Chamber and Norin online.
Mana Echoes. Has been mentioned before I think, but in a more artifact-oriented build this would become so much better. The new thopter-building creatures in Origins share a creature type with Norin, too: Ghirapur Gearcrafter, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer (all three are an option).
Precursor Golem. What? Yes. It's costly, I'll give you that. But I kinda like the idea of playing this with Warstorm Surge online, being able to copy it or blink it also means value. Will probably disappoint me, but I like squeezing value out of crappy cards.
Other cards that have crossed my mind:
boardwipes like Ratchet Bomb, Nevinyrral's Disk and Oblivion Stone.
Trash for Treasure
Myr Matrix
Myr Welder
Hoarding Dragon
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient
Thoughts?
EDIT: Some Goblins are just too good to remove though. Welder needs to stay, Kiki-Jiki too of course. And there are probably more.
Seems like way too much work to make a bad card do something. Myr Retriver would probably be waaay better (and his Cousin Junk Diver too).
Yeah. Forgot to mention those somehow. And I agree with your opinion on Myr Servitor, but also think it's worth testing. If anything, it's a nice drop for 1.