top goes in any multiplayer edh except manaless hermit druid, i guess. so no argument there.
about scroll rack, to put into perspective, i run it alongside the 2 ktk fetches, 2 panoramas (used to be 3, then drew them too often and went to 2. seem ok in this number) and madblind mountain. my plan is to upgrade the remaining panoramas to fetches as soon as they reprint them (i figure/hope in the next standard set).
in this context, i find rack really useful. without even fetches, you're right to not consider it, as it would require at least panoramas, and running just them is often a bad idea.
keep in mind however, that you can shuffle your deck after each tutor, or cloning of a tutor creature (again, budget absence of imperial recruiter is relevant), or reanimation of tutor creature through feldon or solemn simulacrum through daretti too, so shuffling happens quite a lot of time even without dedicating deck slots to it.
i don't like crystal ball, as i wouldn't pay 4 mana for a scry 2 without even the possibility of drawing the card. i guess i'm just too spoiled by the top regarding this.
Wild Guess and Tormenting Voice are also playable imho. But like most other cards you listed they are not repeatable. You have to count in Mind's Eye and Wheel effects as additional draw/card selection spells if you want to answer your question of how many and wich to run.
This is an interesting idea of not playing Mind's Eye at all. Obviously with Honor-Worn Shuko it's more than a little crazy, but otherwise, as stated, it's got a required opportunity cost of leaving at least one mana open for the ability.
After stewing this idea over a warm cup of tears, its not a bad idea. The first activation costs a grand total of six mana to draw one card, but after that gains a lot of repeated value. Comparing the overall mana investment to the number of cards drawn draws a picture of an actually quite terrible artifact. In the space of one turn, Blue Sun's Zenith, starting at six mana invested, draws three cards. We've only drawn one, and it's reliant on the opponent to draw, first. I don't know about you, but I'd rather spend all that mana to draw three cards in one turn rather than one card. If we put... say.. ten mana into it, That's a fresh hand with Zenith (seven cards!) and five for the Eye, albeit spaced out among the opponent's draws as a matter of course.
Mind's Eye is, however, far more powerful if you include a wheel effect, and assumes that you've untapped. You have the capability to draw quite literally 1/4 of your deck in one go, most likely at the cost of your turn. Feeling like a blue deck has never felt more red! But is this frequent enough to warrant inclusion based on this sort of synergy? It might be. You're guaranteed at the very least opponent's drawsteps, barring shenanigans, and you've got the following ways to force it:
But, again, these assume that you've got a gob of mana ready to go, and a hand that you haven't played for some reason or another. In addition to that, you're getting a new hand with these anyways, so if there isn't a line you can take... open your eyes.
Mulling this over... I think I've just been assuming Mind's Eye is the best possible choice for that slot and that role without actively looking for better solutions (assuming they exist.) I wouldn't be opposed at all to slicing it out in favor of either a different draw engine (does it need to be, or single-shot?) or possibly Myr Battlesphere. I'm still looking for a decent substitution for this card, and Eye might be it. Hell, Commander's Sphere wouldn't be remiss.
This being said, Mind's Eye has still performed its function well for the past three years. This discussion doesn't mean that it's suddenly a bad card that needs to be cut instantly from every deck ever. It's still arguably the better choice for slower metas, or if you're packing a bit more mana and wheel than others might be.
I guess the questions that need to be considered are:
1) Is Mind's Eye still good enough?
2) Do we need another source of draw?
3) What could replace it that will have a higher impact on the game?
4) Does it blend?
Go!
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
i'm glad you put some thought behind my suggestion. in my list above i just swapped mind eye with scroll rack.
when i played with gauntlet of power and caged sun, the deck was full of mana ready to spend, and so mind's eye was perfect for the purpose. right now, were i to keep it, i would feel compelled to bring them back (and maybe add something like mana echoes to have another way to get big mana).
as the deck relied less and less on mana doublers (and got more mana efficient as a result), mind eye was a card i didn't want to see in my hand, because i never felt i could use a whole turn to set up a draw engine. scroll rack is way better, even if it is more of a wheel effect than pure card draw, it is an engine if you have a fetcher in hand, otherwise it is just another kind of wheel,one that comes online on turn 2 without making you feel you wasted a turn or in any of the following without making you tap all your lands.
also, i didn't realize the synergy between eye and wheels (silly me), but it never happened when i played norin. the only time i found eye useful was in a game i was already closing because of warstorm surge + wurmcoil + kiki, so no mana was needed to be used on my turn. every other time i didn't draw it, i could not play it (considering mana or tempo), or i didn't draw much from it.
tl;dr it's a great card, it just works better in a deck that can reliably get big mana in games, be it through mana doublers or mana engines of other kinds.
Hey there guys,
I've wanted to put together a Norin deck for some time now and have finally pulled the trigger I was wondering if you had any suggestions for a meta that tends to be less artifact heavy and MUCH more enchantment heavy. Right now I'm thinking of using Liquimetal Coating and possibly Mycosynth Lattice to make their permanents a bit more manageable as artifacts.
Anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
I guess the questions that need to be considered are:
1) Is Mind's Eye still good enough?
2) Do we need another source of draw?
3) What could replace it that will have a higher impact on the game?
4) Does it blend?
Go!
I stopped playing it for a few reasons. I'm playing as many 1v1s as multiplayer games with the deck to make this into perspective, because I think it has an important factor with this card.
1) The biggest problem with Mind's Eye if that if you want to get some card advantage, you won't usually want to play it on turn 5 when you can't draw without it, because you won't usually untap with it. With Wheel of Fortune, you said it, it's a full turn wasted to draw 3-4-5 cards depending on your mana situation (sometimes more and at this point, it should help you winning, but Wheel alone is usually enough and you'd end up discarding). With that said, I don't think there is really any good card to fill in that slot other than Mind's Eye itself. The only card I can think about is Dreamstone Hedron, but it tends to gets destroyed on sight too (without bringing the same hate however). For one more mana, it is a versatile Thran Dynamo that be sacced to draw 3. But do you really need a Thran Dynamo that costs 6? That's another question. I might need it more than you, since my gameplan is often around winning with Moggcatcher, and the jump from 6 to 10 mana would make a definitite impact there. The new released Feldon of the Third Path could be another reason to need more mana. But it's not a Gauntlet of Might, although this is definitely a more budget option. That ramps, nets you 3 cards for 9 mana at the end (but you probably used it to produce mana before), and the good side is that you don't need to wait to sac it (won't be destroyed if you have 3 mana open, usually).
2) We have wheel effetcs. Is that enough? It depends. Teferi's Puzzle Box (no card advantage here), Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, Chandra Ablaze, Faithless Looting (card disadvantage, draw 4 discard 4), Rummaging Goblin (or any similar looter, no card advantage here), Memory Jar (as good as card advantage will ever get in red I guess)... it's not that bad, but could we use one more? Certainly. Drawing is winning (mostly), it's never bad.
3) Not much as I said on the first point. Dreamstone Hedron is a manacost-expensive option that takes 2 good cards to make something that is not so good (the same way Daretti does from my point of view, but this is from someone who does play 1v1 with this deck too and it clearly makes a difference here again).
4) Definitely. =)
The new Commander's Sphere doesn't really impress me for mono-colored decks since Worn Powerstone is better. Between Coalition Relic, this would be something to really think about, and it definitely replaces any Darksteel Ingot that people might still be playing at this point (which we don't), since the indestructible part is replaced by Sac: Draw. Chromatic Lantern is completely different and only shines in 3+ color decks. So... really depends, but I'm not replacing Worn Powerstone (I'm not playing Sol Ring for banlist reasons), that's for sure. It basically just cycles itself. Maybe Dreamstone Hedron (again) would be more useful.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I ran it in my Purph for a while, as for some reason I forgot about Reforge the Soul when ordering the list. It worked really, really well, to the point where I'm wondering whether I should keep it. It's perfect for losing your high profile for a bit, you sit back, you don't really do things, you just draw the occasional card refuelling your hand for later. Focus will shift towards people who are actually doing things. I'd totally run it in a Norin, given the possibility of Shaku shenanigans. Plus, keeping a low profile seems like an easier thing to do with Norin
Totally forgot Scroll Rack. You could play Scoll Rack Gaka. I do. With the 4 fetch lands, it's usually more than enough to be able to shuffle when you have some cards. If you can see any of the draw 7 effect, you are fine too. Gamble, Imperial Recruiter, Possibility Storm (you don't play that one I think), Moggcatcher, Solemn Simulacrum... all either shuffle effect or mass card draw that goes well with Scroll Rack. It's really powerful and it makes a bad starting hand something that you can keep. I would run this before Mind's Eye in this specific deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I've been playing Norin for about 2 years now. There seems to be quite abit of heated discussion and queries since C14 so I figure I should stop lurking and give my thoughts instead.
Norin has been the most politically inclined commander i've used thus far. The most important aspect is to play your opponents off one another while maintaining a fairly innocuous board state before pulling off a win where it didnt seem likely. Even though i've been playing Norin in my group quite often, I'm never target numero uno unless i do something stupid like playing a turn 2 purphoros. (And I only do that when i'm sure my hand can handle being Archenemy this game)
Just a few examples of innocuous boardstates hiding a potential win:
Only a Trading Post and Mana Echoes on the board? Win (Comet Storm and Myr Battlesphere in hand: Play Battlesphere to generate 16 mana. Sac it to Trading Post to put it back in hand. Replay Battlesphere to get to 44 mana. Comet Storm) [Note: I am inclined to cut Mana Echoes because it usually feels like a win-more card]
What i'm trying to get at is that the other players should never really see their loss coming, and thus you should never get hated out of the game. If you do, it should be fair to say that it's due to a misplay on your part.
Little tidbit - I've resolved over 10 Warp Worlds over all my games with Norin, and every single one has resulted in an instantaneous win. (Lowest count was 7 permanents vs 11 for my opponent)
Now on to card discussion: Steel Hellkite - I am always happy when i see Steel Hellkite, especially so if I already have a haste enabler (and to add to the previous conversation, i feel that haste is absolutely essential to Norin, but i prefer mass haste enablers to single target ones a.k.a the Warp World test) Even when you are out of mana, it clears an opponent of their tokens/mana crypt. It is one of the only few answers we have to enchantments in red, and it's repeatable to boot. Although to be fair, it rarely survives a turn, which can be spinned to say it eats removal! Also it's a bomb by itself if left unanswered.
Trading Post - It seems like people aren't all that enthused with Trading Post, and I feel like that is a mistake. Trading Post is the definition of a value engine, doubly so in Norin which is all about generating value. It synergises with Squee, Goblin Nabob for repeatable lifegain (One of the only sources of lifegain in Norin, that's useful in attrition matchups). It generates chump blockers/etb/sac target triggers. It is limited sac engine and artifact recursion in a deck that really wants both. (Myr Battlesphere every turn? Why the heck not!) And lastly it's a limited artifact sac engine (bye bye mana crypt) and card draw (toss those myr tokens) This card does anything and everything, and it synergises with incoming cards like Feldon and Daretti as well.
Mind's Eye - I tend to agree that at the cost of 5 mana, Mind's Eye dosen't generate enough value on the turn it comes into play. However, as a card advantage engine over the long term, it is incomparable to other card draw available. With Honor-Worn Shaku, it is up to 3 free cards per round. With wheel effects or card draw heavy opponents, it pulls alot of weight. The downside, being the high mana cost can be mitigated in some ways. (Recursion through Welder/Daretti;Hitting it through luck from an incoming Chaos Warp/Warp World;or simply playing it lategame when everyone is running out of cards and having too much mana) I Still feel that it deserves a spot until some better form of card draw can take it's place.
Myr Battlesphere - This should be in every Norin deck without having to give a reason. It's 5 bodies that are all artifacts and creatures. It's a bomb on it's own without even considering the dozen or so synergies it has in the deck.
Reforge the Soul - The number of times i've drawn into this card and felt upset is too high to count. My meta has alot of wheel effects, and either my luck is terrible or something, but i've almost never been able to miracle into this. And 5 mana for a wheel effect usually means i'm wasting an entire turn while giving other players a full hand. Not fun. I believe the once or twice i had the option of miracling it, my hand was already so good that i didnt want to anyway. I made this cut awhile ago and never regretted it.
Top/Scroll Rack etc - Contrary to the norm, i actually do not run these in my deck. Partially because i do not use Fetchlands. (There was one game where I fetched out all 25 mountains using Thawing Glacier and Deserted Temple, with a Valakut on field. Yes, the game was won with just lands.) Money is a factor here as i feel fetchlands dont add enough in this case to justify having em. And without fetchland, i see no need for Top/Scroll Rack, especially if the deck has enough card draw/filtering. (For card draw, I currently run: Skullclamp, Mind's Eye, Memory Jar, Rummaging Goblin, Solemn Simulacrum, Trading Post, Chandra Ablaze, Wheel of Fortune and to a lesser extent Goblin Ringleader, +incoming Daretti) At the end of the day, not running fetchland dosen't lose you all that much advantage, and you free up slots that otherwise got to top/rack/crucible etc.
Goblin Toolbox - Many players falsely believe that Norin is a goblin tribal deck or something, but that is really not the case. There just happen to be many goblins that have desirable traits for Norin, namely generating etb triggers. Mogg War Marshal(3 etb triggers), Beetleback Chief(3), Krenko(?), Siege-Gang Commander(4), Kiki-Jiki(?), Goblin Marshal(5). Then we have other cards that provide etb triggers and goblins as well like Chancellor of the Forge(?), Mogg Infestation (?). Add in the essential Goblin Welder. That's already 7 Goblins. At this point adding a few support goblins is reasonable: Goblin Assassin (untargetted removal), Outrage shaman (targeted removal), Tuktuk Scrapper (artifact removal), Rummaging Goblin (Card Filter). Suddenly, adding a Moggcatcher or a Goblin recruiter dosen't seem all that bad. (Recruiter can fetch RG and Squee for card draw or Go full out aggro with Ringleader, Chieftien and etb trigger goblins as well as fetch answers) It's more about synergy than going tribal.
Grip of Chaos/Possibility Storm/Tangle Wire etc - The chaos and stax package, I dislike alot. Norin, really dosen't do chaos well unlike what most players believe. Chaos and Stax tends to annoy other players, and annoying players = painting yourself as a target. Possibility Storm almost never works out in Norin's favor because we run both too many small cards without immediate impact unlike players with cards like Blightsteel Colossus or Eldrazi. Although Stax works well with Norin, it also generates alot of hate. In the end, you have to decide if they are really worth it. The only "chaos cards" that I approve of are the ones that ALWAYS work out in our favor, being Confusion in the Ranks and Warp World. (Due to the massive etb triggers we have)
Fork Effects - I cut them quite a long while back. I never really liked having to keep mana open for a potential fork or reiterate when Norin has very very little instants to save that mana for. Often, leaving mana open when you could have played something results in you wasting that mana when there is nothing worth forking in the end. Also cutting down on the number of instants and sorceries equals to a happier Warp World.
To end this wall of text, I'll say that Norin is not just a control deck. It plays control at times, aggro at times, and it even combos off once it awhile.
I agree with most of what you said except maybe for P-Storm, because nobody plays the Eldrazis in my meta (they are not really synergic usually except maybe with Jhoira which is more geared towards competitive match ups usually).
With that said, wouldn't you like to run Knowledge Pool if you opponent tends to play the better spells? And I don't see how Warp World helps if your opponents put Eldrazis in play.
Top is banned in the French format so I can't use it because of our house rules (and that's fine, this card slows the game down like crazy). But... Scroll Rack? I don't know, I got my hands on one yesterday, so I will playtest it, but assuming you are often playing the deck for 1v1 matches, it looks like a great replacement for Mind's Eye to me. Makes your opening hand better, we have tons of way to shuffle (especially with the 4 fetch lands, and price isn't really an issue anymore with the reprints). I don't think it can be bad. If it is, I will just put the fetch lands in another deck but honestly, with the lack of tutoring red has, the more you are able to see cards from your deck, the better it should be.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Depends. Scroll rack is not a very fast card in that it takes 3 to activate even once minds eye is also incredibly slow but they don't really serve the same purpose. I don't play this deck but from experience I have found scroll rack incredibly underwhelming in multiplayer games without both a very high density shuffle effects and even then it's still a slow card it makes top look fast. But the reason I see it as really odd replacement for minds eye is they are good in the exact opposite hands . Scroll rack is good with hands that can keep your hand size high where minds eye is good in hands with fast ramp and no gas. Casting rack in a hand that hits crypt or ring and craps your hand out is typically never what your looking for in a dig slot. Playing 1:1 with a French adapted banlist is apples and oranges to multiplayer the flow if the game is not even close to the same thing. While I find most good decks can be used in multiplayer or FFA without any changes the optimization is worlds a part especially playing a control deck. Without playing this deck I would guess scroll racks effectiveness will vary from game breaking good to completely useless based on your draw. I do think it's vastly superior here for 1:1 due to how much value eye loses and how much more important seeing more cards fast is in that setting but mainly because minds eye seems horrible for 1:1.
So... not worth the $25 spot with the 4 fetch lands (nearly $100 right now)?
I mean, 4 Mountains will do and I'm pretty sure I could find something else than Rack anyway but I don't know... seeing 7 more cards after Wheel of Fortune or keeping the goods from Memory Jar looks good enough to me.
I guess I really have to playtest it. Maybe 4 fetch lands isn't enough, even considering Madblind Mountain (which is a really bad card overall).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Btw. this doesn't work, because you can`t return the card you sacrificed.
And yeah Mana Echoes is win-more.
Are you very sure about that? As i read it, saccing a creature to trading post is part of the cost (it's before the semi-colon:), so it will already be in the graveyard before the recursion ability triggers. I hope i havent been playing wrong since inception ahah.
The cards have their pros and cons. They are excellent etb triggers.
On the other hand, they are 1 time use spells which means that lack value when put with the rest of the deck. Other creatures can be mimic-vated, feldonned, kiki-ed etc, while being tutorable through goblin recruiter or imperial recruiter etc. Lastly, it dosent pass the Warp World test, which if you cannot tell, i am INCREDIBLY BIASED towards. If you toss out the goblin toolbox and warpworld in favor of spells like these, Norin possibly will become more explosive, but less resilient than the "current version" of the deck.
Mana Echoes: I mean, this card has done alot for me as i've used it. But usually it results in me spitting out every artifact in my hand, or causing a big explosion with comet storm. It may have won a few games, but most of the time, it just speeds up a win, that i probably would have still gotten otherwise. that said, getting mana echoes when you have no creatures at all makes it whiff, and I do still need to remove cards somewhere to make space for new ones, so this seems like the most likely spot to me. + removing this makes it much easier for me to remove comet storm as well. And i gain access to alot more cards that i otherwise couldnt try due to accidental unlimited combos (which is houseruled in my group)
I agree with most of what you said except maybe for P-Storm, because nobody plays the Eldrazis in my meta (they are not really synergic usually except maybe with Jhoira which is more geared towards competitive match ups usually).
If it's working for you then there is no real reason to cut it imo. It's just a card for me that usually helps my opponents mroe than it does myself. (The other decks I have that my friends use are: Toshiro, Borborygmous Enraged, Derevi, Kresh and Mishra) and possibility storm usually can be pretty scary for me when used against them. You could possibly make a spreadsheet to figure out exactly what Possibility Storm does for your deck and then decide if it is worth it's mana cost.
With that said, wouldn't you like to run Knowledge Pool if you opponent tends to play the better spells? And I don't see how Warp World helps if your opponents put Eldrazis in play.
Well, I run Knowledge Pool, Shared Fate and such in my Mishra Deck and it's more suited to Mishra since he gets to double dip on artifacts played that way. I've had 2 games where I was playing Mishra and my friend was using Norin and Knowledge Pool hit play.
Game 1: Mishra played a Board Wipe after the other two players overextended against one another. Knowledge Pool. Next turn played someones's Steel Hellkite getting another one and also a Colossus of Akros. Next turn Double Steel Hellkite finished off one player, and a monstrous-ed Akros did in the other.
Game 2: Norin played Confusion in the Ranks. Mishra played Knowledge Pool. I can't quite remember how this game played out, but Mishra won in the end.
This pretty much means that Knowledge Pool is not fit for my meta since it has a Mishra. Your results may vary.
Warp World: This card is something I assign the most value to in Norin, apart from it's engines. I have some incredible luck with it. Every Warp World I've resolved to this day has won me the game on that turn itself. It usually bring about situations like 40+ hasted beatsticks (Hammer of Purphoros/Battledriver Ogre/In the Web of War; Death through Warstorm/Pandamonium/Purphoros; Death through a sac engine and Viscious Shadows; Death through Valakut and sufficient mountains.
Thus, an opponent hitting into a Blightsteel Colossus (which has happened) hasn't affected the results when it comes to Warp World so far.
Every time it resolves I find some super cool interactions within the deck that I may not have realized before. God knows what i'll find the next 10 or so Warp World's I resolve.
Top is banned in the French format so I can't use it because of our house rules (and that's fine, this card slows the game down like crazy). But... Scroll Rack? I don't know, I got my hands on one yesterday, so I will playtest it, but assuming you are often playing the deck for 1v1 matches, it looks like a great replacement for Mind's Eye to me. Makes your opening hand better, we have tons of way to shuffle (especially with the 4 fetch lands, and price isn't really an issue anymore with the reprints). I don't think it can be bad. If it is, I will just put the fetch lands in another deck but honestly, with the lack of tutoring red has, the more you are able to see cards from your deck, the better it should be.
Others have brought up a few good points, and they probably know better since i've not tried scroll rack in Norin. For me it's about price efficiency. I simply find it a waste to shell out $ for fetches to put in Norin when i could use them better in my other decks. And not having them allowed me to cut other cards which i otherwise would have needed to support the fetchlands.
Oh yea, note that all of my advice is pretty much for multiplayer EDH where politics can make or break a win. Even though I play more duel games with the deck than I do multiplayer, I still intend to build it towards multiplayer. If you use the deck for duel primarily, then you should ignore most of the lower powered value engines for straight up oppressive "staple" cards. Because in 1v1, drawing hate is a given, and theres no point trying to make nice with your opponent.
You put your ability on the stack (choosing target) before even paying the cost, so yeah, it doesn't work. I mean, this card would be completely ridiculous otherwise. It's already pretty damn good as it is with the 4 abilities being really useful in the deck (discard outlet, recursion, draw and tokens).
You'd need another sac outlet (say Ashnod Altar for artifact creatures) to do it the other way around and if you are playing Vicious Shadows, it's probably a card worth a slot (I personally don't run that little combo but that's good too).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Also i'm looking for space to possibly try out Wurmcoil Engine and Pentavus. What are everyone's thoughts on them?
I don't have much more room atm, so i might try taking out Caged Sun and Extraplanar Lens (It's bad i know, but it's my "proxy" for gauntlet before i'm convinced to shell out for it)
You'd need another sac outlet (say Ashnod Altar for artifact creatures) to do it the other way around and if you are playing Vicious Shadows, it's probably a card worth a slot (I personally don't run that little combo but that's good too).
For sac outlets, I'm currently running Goblin Bombardment and Phyrexian Altar for mass saccing. Things like Siege gang for conditional sacs.
Wow, so adamant, I didn't think it was that bad. I'm curious, why so opposed? I'll admit, the fact that it can't hit artifacts is a major drawback and CMC of 5 definitely hurts more than 4. On the other hand it gets to hit both a creature and a land of your choice and a creature and a land you don't get to pick but that can't be yours. And all this at instant speed (the fact that Aftershock is sorcery speed is insanely annoying). And it is damage instead of destroy but then again aftershock couldn't hit indestructible or regeneratable creatures either anyway.
If it was a sorcery I'd totally agree with you Gaka but I gotta admit, I really like the fact that its an instant.
Absolutely not. They're completely different cards with completely different values.
Honestly, you couldn't pay me to play offering.
I'm honestly torn here. On the one hand, Aftershock can hit an arty, Volcanic Offering cannot. BUT Offering will hit 1 (potentially 2) land and 1 creature (potentially 2) as they SHOULD just choose your same targets in 1v1 but could choose different targets in multi. Offering is also an instant. Offering also doesn't outright destroy. What if that critter you want offed is x/8? Aftershock costs only 4 mana, which is a big deal as it can come online as early as t2 (Mountain, Mountain, sol ring). While Offering has the potential to hit 4 different targets, I like the versatility that Aftershock gives. Gah... my brain feels like it wants to jump out of my head....I may have to be with Gaka on this one. Tip my hat to Aftershock
Aftershock is better for me but YMMV. Depends if you need more instant-speed removal. If your meta is more oriented towards combo, the Offering could be quite good, although 5 mana is a lot.
Red needs a better Aftershock. But we are playing red, so that's what we get and looking at the color pie discussion there has been recently on the forums here, we do with what we have just fine.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
my own opinion on that is that i always cast aftershock to kill something big but never more than */7 big (elesh norn for example), and for artifacts. lands didn't happen too much, but artifacts did.
if i can convince myself to try it it will be instead of ruination, because my meta seemingly went more basic lands and artifact fixers, but even as it is that is going to be a difficult choice.
i'll try and find space again for trading post though, i somehow feel bad cutting it.
another piece of thought for dualcaster mage as well: other than its use as a reiterate and as a flash etb, it can be used as a reiterate on a stick with kiki-jiki or feldon if it is in the graveyard; or let's suppose we're in magic christmas land, let me tap my kiki-jiki targeting my imperial recruiter to fetch dualcaster to copy your exanguinate for 40.
i need to find something else to cut to at least test it, but the feeling that it's too cute is there.
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about scroll rack, to put into perspective, i run it alongside the 2 ktk fetches, 2 panoramas (used to be 3, then drew them too often and went to 2. seem ok in this number) and madblind mountain. my plan is to upgrade the remaining panoramas to fetches as soon as they reprint them (i figure/hope in the next standard set).
in this context, i find rack really useful. without even fetches, you're right to not consider it, as it would require at least panoramas, and running just them is often a bad idea.
keep in mind however, that you can shuffle your deck after each tutor, or cloning of a tutor creature (again, budget absence of imperial recruiter is relevant), or reanimation of tutor creature through feldon or solemn simulacrum through daretti too, so shuffling happens quite a lot of time even without dedicating deck slots to it.
i don't like crystal ball, as i wouldn't pay 4 mana for a scry 2 without even the possibility of drawing the card. i guess i'm just too spoiled by the top regarding this.
1 goblin welder
2 goblin recruiter
2 iron myr
2 stingscourger
2 mogg war marshal
3 feldon of the third path
3 rummaging goblin
3 squee, goblin nabob
3 imperial recruiter
3 goblin matron
3 viashino heretic
3 grinning ignus
3 magus of the moon
3 deal broker
4 changeling berserker
4 purphoros, god of the forge
4 beetle-back chieftain
4 goblin settler
4 moggcatcher
4 ogre battledriver
4 tuktuk scrapper
4 solemn simulacrum
4 krenko, mob boss
5 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
5 zealous conscripts
5 siege-gang commander
5 goblin assassin
6 wurmcoil engine
6 steel hellkite
0 mana crypt
1 sensei's divining top
1 skullclamp
1 springleaf drum
1 codex shredder
1 sol ring
2 genesis chamber
2 mind stone
2 scroll rack
3 unstable obelisk
3 hammer of purphoros
3 mimic vat
3 honor-worn shaku
3 crucible of worlds
4 teferi's puzzle box
4 helm of command
5 memory jar
5 summoner's closet
6 duplicant
enchantments
2 goblin bombardment
3 blood moon
4 ruination
4 pyrohemia
4 stranglehold
4 pandemonium
5 confusion in the ranks
6 warstorm surge
planeswalkers
4 daretti
6 chandra ablaze
1 chaos warp
1 gamble
1 shattering spree
1 faithless looting
2 burning wish
3 wheel of fortune
4 aftershock
5 mogg infestation
5 reforge the soul
lands
1 high market
1 strip mine
1 tectonic edge
1 darksteel citadel
1 kher keep
1 valakut, the molten pinnacle
1 scrying sheets
1 madblind mountain
1 grixis panorama
1 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
1 cavern of souls
1 jund panorama
1 great furnace
1 buried ruin
1 flamekin village
16 snow-covered mountain
1 scrap mastery
1 apocalypse
1 traitor blood
1 blasphemous act
1 anarchy
1 warp world
1 tempt with vengeance
1 recoup
1 insurrection
1 vandalblast
After stewing this idea over a warm cup of tears, its not a bad idea. The first activation costs a grand total of six mana to draw one card, but after that gains a lot of repeated value. Comparing the overall mana investment to the number of cards drawn draws a picture of an actually quite terrible artifact. In the space of one turn, Blue Sun's Zenith, starting at six mana invested, draws three cards. We've only drawn one, and it's reliant on the opponent to draw, first. I don't know about you, but I'd rather spend all that mana to draw three cards in one turn rather than one card. If we put... say.. ten mana into it, That's a fresh hand with Zenith (seven cards!) and five for the Eye, albeit spaced out among the opponent's draws as a matter of course.
Mind's Eye is, however, far more powerful if you include a wheel effect, and assumes that you've untapped. You have the capability to draw quite literally 1/4 of your deck in one go, most likely at the cost of your turn. Feeling like a blue deck has never felt more red! But is this frequent enough to warrant inclusion based on this sort of synergy? It might be. You're guaranteed at the very least opponent's drawsteps, barring shenanigans, and you've got the following ways to force it:
But, again, these assume that you've got a gob of mana ready to go, and a hand that you haven't played for some reason or another. In addition to that, you're getting a new hand with these anyways, so if there isn't a line you can take... open your eyes.
Mulling this over... I think I've just been assuming Mind's Eye is the best possible choice for that slot and that role without actively looking for better solutions (assuming they exist.) I wouldn't be opposed at all to slicing it out in favor of either a different draw engine (does it need to be, or single-shot?) or possibly Myr Battlesphere. I'm still looking for a decent substitution for this card, and Eye might be it. Hell, Commander's Sphere wouldn't be remiss.
This being said, Mind's Eye has still performed its function well for the past three years. This discussion doesn't mean that it's suddenly a bad card that needs to be cut instantly from every deck ever. It's still arguably the better choice for slower metas, or if you're packing a bit more mana and wheel than others might be.
I guess the questions that need to be considered are:
1) Is Mind's Eye still good enough?
2) Do we need another source of draw?
3) What could replace it that will have a higher impact on the game?
4) Does it blend?
Go!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
when i played with gauntlet of power and caged sun, the deck was full of mana ready to spend, and so mind's eye was perfect for the purpose. right now, were i to keep it, i would feel compelled to bring them back (and maybe add something like mana echoes to have another way to get big mana).
as the deck relied less and less on mana doublers (and got more mana efficient as a result), mind eye was a card i didn't want to see in my hand, because i never felt i could use a whole turn to set up a draw engine. scroll rack is way better, even if it is more of a wheel effect than pure card draw, it is an engine if you have a fetcher in hand, otherwise it is just another kind of wheel,one that comes online on turn 2 without making you feel you wasted a turn or in any of the following without making you tap all your lands.
also, i didn't realize the synergy between eye and wheels (silly me), but it never happened when i played norin. the only time i found eye useful was in a game i was already closing because of warstorm surge + wurmcoil + kiki, so no mana was needed to be used on my turn. every other time i didn't draw it, i could not play it (considering mana or tempo), or i didn't draw much from it.
tl;dr it's a great card, it just works better in a deck that can reliably get big mana in games, be it through mana doublers or mana engines of other kinds.
I've wanted to put together a Norin deck for some time now and have finally pulled the trigger I was wondering if you had any suggestions for a meta that tends to be less artifact heavy and MUCH more enchantment heavy. Right now I'm thinking of using Liquimetal Coating and possibly Mycosynth Lattice to make their permanents a bit more manageable as artifacts.
Anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
I stopped playing it for a few reasons. I'm playing as many 1v1s as multiplayer games with the deck to make this into perspective, because I think it has an important factor with this card.
1) The biggest problem with Mind's Eye if that if you want to get some card advantage, you won't usually want to play it on turn 5 when you can't draw without it, because you won't usually untap with it. With Wheel of Fortune, you said it, it's a full turn wasted to draw 3-4-5 cards depending on your mana situation (sometimes more and at this point, it should help you winning, but Wheel alone is usually enough and you'd end up discarding). With that said, I don't think there is really any good card to fill in that slot other than Mind's Eye itself. The only card I can think about is Dreamstone Hedron, but it tends to gets destroyed on sight too (without bringing the same hate however). For one more mana, it is a versatile Thran Dynamo that be sacced to draw 3. But do you really need a Thran Dynamo that costs 6? That's another question. I might need it more than you, since my gameplan is often around winning with Moggcatcher, and the jump from 6 to 10 mana would make a definitite impact there. The new released Feldon of the Third Path could be another reason to need more mana. But it's not a Gauntlet of Might, although this is definitely a more budget option. That ramps, nets you 3 cards for 9 mana at the end (but you probably used it to produce mana before), and the good side is that you don't need to wait to sac it (won't be destroyed if you have 3 mana open, usually).
2) We have wheel effetcs. Is that enough? It depends. Teferi's Puzzle Box (no card advantage here), Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, Chandra Ablaze, Faithless Looting (card disadvantage, draw 4 discard 4), Rummaging Goblin (or any similar looter, no card advantage here), Memory Jar (as good as card advantage will ever get in red I guess)... it's not that bad, but could we use one more? Certainly. Drawing is winning (mostly), it's never bad.
3) Not much as I said on the first point. Dreamstone Hedron is a manacost-expensive option that takes 2 good cards to make something that is not so good (the same way Daretti does from my point of view, but this is from someone who does play 1v1 with this deck too and it clearly makes a difference here again).
4) Definitely. =)
The new Commander's Sphere doesn't really impress me for mono-colored decks since Worn Powerstone is better. Between Coalition Relic, this would be something to really think about, and it definitely replaces any Darksteel Ingot that people might still be playing at this point (which we don't), since the indestructible part is replaced by Sac: Draw. Chromatic Lantern is completely different and only shines in 3+ color decks. So... really depends, but I'm not replacing Worn Powerstone (I'm not playing Sol Ring for banlist reasons), that's for sure. It basically just cycles itself. Maybe Dreamstone Hedron (again) would be more useful.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I ran it in my Purph for a while, as for some reason I forgot about Reforge the Soul when ordering the list. It worked really, really well, to the point where I'm wondering whether I should keep it. It's perfect for losing your high profile for a bit, you sit back, you don't really do things, you just draw the occasional card refuelling your hand for later. Focus will shift towards people who are actually doing things. I'd totally run it in a Norin, given the possibility of Shaku shenanigans. Plus, keeping a low profile seems like an easier thing to do with Norin
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Norin has been the most politically inclined commander i've used thus far. The most important aspect is to play your opponents off one another while maintaining a fairly innocuous board state before pulling off a win where it didnt seem likely. Even though i've been playing Norin in my group quite often, I'm never target numero uno unless i do something stupid like playing a turn 2 purphoros. (And I only do that when i'm sure my hand can handle being Archenemy this game)
Just a few examples of innocuous boardstates hiding a potential win:
Like dnLL mentioned before, Only a Moggcatcher and 6 untapped mana on the board? Dosen't look all that dangerous. Win (Activate Moggcatcher at EoT. Fetch Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Copy Mogg. Fetch Goblin Chieftain. Untap all. Fetch Krenko, Mob Boss and Siege-Gang Commander. Kiki copies Chieftain. Activate Krenko and swing. 43 Dmg
Only a Trading Post and Mana Echoes on the board? Win (Comet Storm and Myr Battlesphere in hand: Play Battlesphere to generate 16 mana. Sac it to Trading Post to put it back in hand. Replay Battlesphere to get to 44 mana. Comet Storm) [Note: I am inclined to cut Mana Echoes because it usually feels like a win-more card]
Just played Mycosynth Lattice and no one destroyed it? Win (Vandalblast or hasted Hellkite Tyrant)
Couple of Goblins/myrs, a sac engine and a Memory Jar in Play? Win(Vicious Shadows and sac)
What i'm trying to get at is that the other players should never really see their loss coming, and thus you should never get hated out of the game. If you do, it should be fair to say that it's due to a misplay on your part.
Little tidbit - I've resolved over 10 Warp Worlds over all my games with Norin, and every single one has resulted in an instantaneous win. (Lowest count was 7 permanents vs 11 for my opponent)
Now on to card discussion:
Steel Hellkite - I am always happy when i see Steel Hellkite, especially so if I already have a haste enabler (and to add to the previous conversation, i feel that haste is absolutely essential to Norin, but i prefer mass haste enablers to single target ones a.k.a the Warp World test) Even when you are out of mana, it clears an opponent of their tokens/mana crypt. It is one of the only few answers we have to enchantments in red, and it's repeatable to boot. Although to be fair, it rarely survives a turn, which can be spinned to say it eats removal! Also it's a bomb by itself if left unanswered.
Trading Post - It seems like people aren't all that enthused with Trading Post, and I feel like that is a mistake. Trading Post is the definition of a value engine, doubly so in Norin which is all about generating value. It synergises with Squee, Goblin Nabob for repeatable lifegain (One of the only sources of lifegain in Norin, that's useful in attrition matchups). It generates chump blockers/etb/sac target triggers. It is limited sac engine and artifact recursion in a deck that really wants both. (Myr Battlesphere every turn? Why the heck not!) And lastly it's a limited artifact sac engine (bye bye mana crypt) and card draw (toss those myr tokens) This card does anything and everything, and it synergises with incoming cards like Feldon and Daretti as well.
Mind's Eye - I tend to agree that at the cost of 5 mana, Mind's Eye dosen't generate enough value on the turn it comes into play. However, as a card advantage engine over the long term, it is incomparable to other card draw available. With Honor-Worn Shaku, it is up to 3 free cards per round. With wheel effects or card draw heavy opponents, it pulls alot of weight. The downside, being the high mana cost can be mitigated in some ways. (Recursion through Welder/Daretti;Hitting it through luck from an incoming Chaos Warp/Warp World;or simply playing it lategame when everyone is running out of cards and having too much mana) I Still feel that it deserves a spot until some better form of card draw can take it's place.
Myr Battlesphere - This should be in every Norin deck without having to give a reason. It's 5 bodies that are all artifacts and creatures. It's a bomb on it's own without even considering the dozen or so synergies it has in the deck.
Reforge the Soul - The number of times i've drawn into this card and felt upset is too high to count. My meta has alot of wheel effects, and either my luck is terrible or something, but i've almost never been able to miracle into this. And 5 mana for a wheel effect usually means i'm wasting an entire turn while giving other players a full hand. Not fun. I believe the once or twice i had the option of miracling it, my hand was already so good that i didnt want to anyway. I made this cut awhile ago and never regretted it.
Top/Scroll Rack etc - Contrary to the norm, i actually do not run these in my deck. Partially because i do not use Fetchlands. (There was one game where I fetched out all 25 mountains using Thawing Glacier and Deserted Temple, with a Valakut on field. Yes, the game was won with just lands.) Money is a factor here as i feel fetchlands dont add enough in this case to justify having em. And without fetchland, i see no need for Top/Scroll Rack, especially if the deck has enough card draw/filtering. (For card draw, I currently run: Skullclamp, Mind's Eye, Memory Jar, Rummaging Goblin, Solemn Simulacrum, Trading Post, Chandra Ablaze, Wheel of Fortune and to a lesser extent Goblin Ringleader, +incoming Daretti) At the end of the day, not running fetchland dosen't lose you all that much advantage, and you free up slots that otherwise got to top/rack/crucible etc.
Goblin Toolbox - Many players falsely believe that Norin is a goblin tribal deck or something, but that is really not the case. There just happen to be many goblins that have desirable traits for Norin, namely generating etb triggers. Mogg War Marshal(3 etb triggers), Beetleback Chief(3), Krenko(?), Siege-Gang Commander(4), Kiki-Jiki(?), Goblin Marshal(5). Then we have other cards that provide etb triggers and goblins as well like Chancellor of the Forge(?), Mogg Infestation (?). Add in the essential Goblin Welder. That's already 7 Goblins. At this point adding a few support goblins is reasonable: Goblin Assassin (untargetted removal), Outrage shaman (targeted removal), Tuktuk Scrapper (artifact removal), Rummaging Goblin (Card Filter). Suddenly, adding a Moggcatcher or a Goblin recruiter dosen't seem all that bad. (Recruiter can fetch RG and Squee for card draw or Go full out aggro with Ringleader, Chieftien and etb trigger goblins as well as fetch answers) It's more about synergy than going tribal.
Grip of Chaos/Possibility Storm/Tangle Wire etc - The chaos and stax package, I dislike alot. Norin, really dosen't do chaos well unlike what most players believe. Chaos and Stax tends to annoy other players, and annoying players = painting yourself as a target. Possibility Storm almost never works out in Norin's favor because we run both too many small cards without immediate impact unlike players with cards like Blightsteel Colossus or Eldrazi. Although Stax works well with Norin, it also generates alot of hate. In the end, you have to decide if they are really worth it. The only "chaos cards" that I approve of are the ones that ALWAYS work out in our favor, being Confusion in the Ranks and Warp World. (Due to the massive etb triggers we have)
Fork Effects - I cut them quite a long while back. I never really liked having to keep mana open for a potential fork or reiterate when Norin has very very little instants to save that mana for. Often, leaving mana open when you could have played something results in you wasting that mana when there is nothing worth forking in the end. Also cutting down on the number of instants and sorceries equals to a happier Warp World.
To end this wall of text, I'll say that Norin is not just a control deck. It plays control at times, aggro at times, and it even combos off once it awhile.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
I agree with most of what you said except maybe for P-Storm, because nobody plays the Eldrazis in my meta (they are not really synergic usually except maybe with Jhoira which is more geared towards competitive match ups usually).
With that said, wouldn't you like to run Knowledge Pool if you opponent tends to play the better spells? And I don't see how Warp World helps if your opponents put Eldrazis in play.
Top is banned in the French format so I can't use it because of our house rules (and that's fine, this card slows the game down like crazy). But... Scroll Rack? I don't know, I got my hands on one yesterday, so I will playtest it, but assuming you are often playing the deck for 1v1 matches, it looks like a great replacement for Mind's Eye to me. Makes your opening hand better, we have tons of way to shuffle (especially with the 4 fetch lands, and price isn't really an issue anymore with the reprints). I don't think it can be bad. If it is, I will just put the fetch lands in another deck but honestly, with the lack of tutoring red has, the more you are able to see cards from your deck, the better it should be.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I mean, 4 Mountains will do and I'm pretty sure I could find something else than Rack anyway but I don't know... seeing 7 more cards after Wheel of Fortune or keeping the goods from Memory Jar looks good enough to me.
I guess I really have to playtest it. Maybe 4 fetch lands isn't enough, even considering Madblind Mountain (which is a really bad card overall).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Are you very sure about that? As i read it, saccing a creature to trading post is part of the cost (it's before the semi-colon:), so it will already be in the graveyard before the recursion ability triggers. I hope i havent been playing wrong since inception ahah.
The cards have their pros and cons. They are excellent etb triggers.
On the other hand, they are 1 time use spells which means that lack value when put with the rest of the deck. Other creatures can be mimic-vated, feldonned, kiki-ed etc, while being tutorable through goblin recruiter or imperial recruiter etc. Lastly, it dosent pass the Warp World test, which if you cannot tell, i am INCREDIBLY BIASED towards. If you toss out the goblin toolbox and warpworld in favor of spells like these, Norin possibly will become more explosive, but less resilient than the "current version" of the deck.
Mana Echoes: I mean, this card has done alot for me as i've used it. But usually it results in me spitting out every artifact in my hand, or causing a big explosion with comet storm. It may have won a few games, but most of the time, it just speeds up a win, that i probably would have still gotten otherwise. that said, getting mana echoes when you have no creatures at all makes it whiff, and I do still need to remove cards somewhere to make space for new ones, so this seems like the most likely spot to me. + removing this makes it much easier for me to remove comet storm as well. And i gain access to alot more cards that i otherwise couldnt try due to accidental unlimited combos (which is houseruled in my group)
If it's working for you then there is no real reason to cut it imo. It's just a card for me that usually helps my opponents mroe than it does myself. (The other decks I have that my friends use are: Toshiro, Borborygmous Enraged, Derevi, Kresh and Mishra) and possibility storm usually can be pretty scary for me when used against them. You could possibly make a spreadsheet to figure out exactly what Possibility Storm does for your deck and then decide if it is worth it's mana cost.
Well, I run Knowledge Pool, Shared Fate and such in my Mishra Deck and it's more suited to Mishra since he gets to double dip on artifacts played that way. I've had 2 games where I was playing Mishra and my friend was using Norin and Knowledge Pool hit play.
Game 1: Mishra played a Board Wipe after the other two players overextended against one another. Knowledge Pool. Next turn played someones's Steel Hellkite getting another one and also a Colossus of Akros. Next turn Double Steel Hellkite finished off one player, and a monstrous-ed Akros did in the other.
Game 2: Norin played Confusion in the Ranks. Mishra played Knowledge Pool. I can't quite remember how this game played out, but Mishra won in the end.
This pretty much means that Knowledge Pool is not fit for my meta since it has a Mishra. Your results may vary.
Warp World: This card is something I assign the most value to in Norin, apart from it's engines. I have some incredible luck with it. Every Warp World I've resolved to this day has won me the game on that turn itself. It usually bring about situations like 40+ hasted beatsticks (Hammer of Purphoros/Battledriver Ogre/In the Web of War; Death through Warstorm/Pandamonium/Purphoros; Death through a sac engine and Viscious Shadows; Death through Valakut and sufficient mountains.
Thus, an opponent hitting into a Blightsteel Colossus (which has happened) hasn't affected the results when it comes to Warp World so far.
Every time it resolves I find some super cool interactions within the deck that I may not have realized before. God knows what i'll find the next 10 or so Warp World's I resolve.
Others have brought up a few good points, and they probably know better since i've not tried scroll rack in Norin. For me it's about price efficiency. I simply find it a waste to shell out $ for fetches to put in Norin when i could use them better in my other decks. And not having them allowed me to cut other cards which i otherwise would have needed to support the fetchlands.
Oh yea, note that all of my advice is pretty much for multiplayer EDH where politics can make or break a win. Even though I play more duel games with the deck than I do multiplayer, I still intend to build it towards multiplayer. If you use the deck for duel primarily, then you should ignore most of the lower powered value engines for straight up oppressive "staple" cards. Because in 1v1, drawing hate is a given, and theres no point trying to make nice with your opponent.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
You'd need another sac outlet (say Ashnod Altar for artifact creatures) to do it the other way around and if you are playing Vicious Shadows, it's probably a card worth a slot (I personally don't run that little combo but that's good too).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Anyways, I just got my copy of C14 so it's time to make cuts.
I've pretty replaced Mana Echoes and Comet Storm for Daretti and Feldon.
I'm contemplating switching Expedition Map for Wayfarer's Bauble. Can someone convince me one way or the other?
Also i'm looking for space to possibly try out Wurmcoil Engine and Pentavus. What are everyone's thoughts on them?
I don't have much more room atm, so i might try taking out Caged Sun and Extraplanar Lens (It's bad i know, but it's my "proxy" for gauntlet before i'm convinced to shell out for it)
Oh, and how many Board Wipes do you guys run?
I have Blasphemous Act, Chain Reaction, Mogg Infestation and Pseudo Removal like Insurrection and Warp World. Would it be safe to cut down?
For sac outlets, I'm currently running Goblin Bombardment and Phyrexian Altar for mass saccing. Things like Siege gang for conditional sacs.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
thoughts?
Absolutely not. They're completely different cards with completely different values.
Honestly, you couldn't pay me to play offering.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
If it was a sorcery I'd totally agree with you Gaka but I gotta admit, I really like the fact that its an instant.
URGEDH Biovisionary.dec BShirei WBSelenia
The brain is the muscle that pumps stupid through the body
Red needs a better Aftershock. But we are playing red, so that's what we get and looking at the color pie discussion there has been recently on the forums here, we do with what we have just fine.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
if i can convince myself to try it it will be instead of ruination, because my meta seemingly went more basic lands and artifact fixers, but even as it is that is going to be a difficult choice.
i'll try and find space again for trading post though, i somehow feel bad cutting it.
another piece of thought for dualcaster mage as well: other than its use as a reiterate and as a flash etb, it can be used as a reiterate on a stick with kiki-jiki or feldon if it is in the graveyard; or let's suppose we're in magic christmas land, let me tap my kiki-jiki targeting my imperial recruiter to fetch dualcaster to copy your exanguinate for 40.
i need to find something else to cut to at least test it, but the feeling that it's too cute is there.