Unfortunately, yes. Any ETB effect opens him up to a possible pathing. At least until someone convinces wizards to print a reverse torpor orb - "Abilities triggered on creatures entering the battlefield have split second."
I'm getting hated out a lot when I play Purph, but maybe Norin will get me less attention.
Be prepared for this to get worse. Gaka's Norin is fun as hell to pilot, but whenever I played it, I was the target from turn 0. It got so much hate that I dismantled it in the physical form. Now, playing it in the non-physical form is just more fun.
Unfortunately, yes. Any ETB effect opens him up to a possible pathing. At least until someone convinces wizards to print a reverse torpor orb - "Abilities triggered on creatures entering the battlefield have split second."
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm getting hated out a lot when I play Purph, but maybe Norin will get me less attention.
Be prepared for this to get worse. Gaka's Norin is fun as hell to pilot, but whenever I played it, I was the target from turn 0. It got so much hate that I dismantled it in the physical form. Now, playing it in the non-physical form is just more fun.
Not sure what meta you are playing in, but in my meta it's really nowhere from being the bigger threat. Uril and Oloro are way worse (and more competitive).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My meta consists of a lot of new players with expendable incomes and a couple of old schoolers like me with deep collections. So I don't see the classic "hated" decks. Anything I'm piloting usually gets targeted by a couple of players. Norin does what he does best when I played him, so heavily hated he was. There is an Oloro deck that has potential, but he tends to be collateral damage when I've played. No Sharuum, no Uril... Shop owner has a few interesting decks but nothing power-house like. The only deck that seems to be able to handle mine a bit is a 5c Planeswalker deck. The power level in that meta is very low. Which is fine with me, as it allows me to push the edges of my decks as I can play more "softly" and not worry about too many crazy shenanigans. Unless someone plays one of my decks.
Well that's why, because Norin shouldn't be that scary. Besides the optional Gauntlet of Might and Imperial Recruiter, this is a mono-colored deck that can be build for very not much and honestly, I wouldn't even bother playing this in a competitive meta.
But yeah, against new players playing the precon decks... I could see Norin winning like every game.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Well that's why, because Norin shouldn't be that scary. Besides the optional Gauntlet of Might and Imperial Recruiter, this is a mono-colored deck that can be build for very not much and honestly, I wouldn't even bother playing this in a competitive meta.
But yeah, against new players playing the precon decks... I could see Norin winning like every game.
See, this is kind of interesting - I've been playing this deck to great success in both highly competitive and fairly casual settings. How the deck functions in either environment is entirely up to the choices you make and the lines you play. I'd be completely willing (and have) to take this into a side-event at a GP or PT, an I'd fully expect to have a reasonable chance of winning. Every deck is beatable, regardless of any perceived "power imbalances." Norin has been constructed and tested to deal with the widest possible variance of decks, and its competitiveness is entirely reliant on the pilot. Which is just the way I like it.
Don't even doubt the capability of a mono-colored deck. Simply being monocolored is a great way to abuse decks that require specific mana costs or timings. Stuff like Blood Moon or Ruination are fantastic ways to disrupt three color decks. Goblin Settler backs that up if you really need to take out a basic. Don't be afraid to be a jerk in order to stop shenanigans. You're the only one allowed to use that word, it's been banned by the RC for all other decks. You can look it up. I didn't.
Norin is certainly scary. It's a four player game, not a 1v1v1v1. Take advantage of it. You're red. You're loaded with every piece of disruption and then some more. When that's not enough, you can steal their disruption to disrupt them with. C'mon! It's like eating your cake and having it, too. Chocolate cake.
On an individual card-based topic: Grinning Ignus. I'm not a fan of it, but I understand where y'all are coming from. Slightly delayed ramp that can double as a forced Pandemonium/ect trigger machine. I don't usually favor cards that blink for the sake of blinking (we've already got one that's literally immortal on turn 1!) but I'm willing to give it another go. Which leaves me with another problem... I'm still looking to see what could possibly be cut for Myr Battlesphere testing. The previous possibilities of Daretti and Feldon in for Post and Racketeer are pretty much shoe-ins come Friday, such are the experiences I've had with some really terribly drawn proxies. Seriously, don't hire me for art.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Gonna take a hard pass on dualcaster then? I feel like your probably right with that call but I thought I'd at least give him a tryout. Honestly just the fact that he's a 2/2 I can flash in to Trigger etbs at instant speed seems like it would guarantee he wouldn't be a dead card.
As for battlesphere there isn't actually anything like that currently in the deck so you'll probably have to go after something you find less useful or redundant. A few possibilities that come to mind off the top of my head are:
Manic Vandal - tuktuk scrapper is better and more tutorable and theres other artifact hate
Warstorm surge - nearly matches in cost and you already have pandemonium. Plus giving this away really sucks
Grip of chaos - i hate how expensive this card is. I totally get this one's role but it sucks that playing it basically consumes a turn without necessarily getting immediate value. It also messes with a lot of our strategies too. Also removal (at least in my meta) is like 75% wraths so theres no guarantee it will stop anything
Well that's why, because Norin shouldn't be that scary. Besides the optional Gauntlet of Might and Imperial Recruiter, this is a mono-colored deck that can be build for very not much and honestly, I wouldn't even bother playing this in a competitive meta.
But yeah, against new players playing the precon decks... I could see Norin winning like every game.
See, this is kind of interesting - I've been playing this deck to great success in both highly competitive
I honestly stopped reading there. I know this isn't the first time we have this debate and all I can think of while reading this is that you never piloted a true competitive EDH deck.
I never said mono-colored decks can't win. Blue decks do win. Green too. And yeah, even red can pull some wins. Every deck can win a game or a match. Or even a tournament. But not every deck can win with consistency. Norin can't win with consistency. Just take what you call a "highly competitive Norin" on MTGO and I will play any of Edric, Oloro or Zuur. I can guarantee you that Norin doesn't even stand a chance. You will look after your only one inclusion of untutorable graveyard hate in your deck, and you will do the same for your artifact removal. Even assuming that you decide to run every artifact removal spells that red has, you are still playing red. Sylvan Library will still completely overwhelm you in card advantage, because red can't deal with it easily. The game will be over way before you managed to detroy it. My old competitive Edric deck had an average-CMC of 2.2 and this is considered really high for Edric. Most competitive decks tend to play mostly spells that cost 3 or less. Norin doesn't, and adding Mana Crypt and Sol Ring won't help, it's either destroyed on sight or your opponent can just deal (and enjoy) the high-CMC cards you will try to resolve after. The stax package won't do either, because competitive decks all play it and are all build around it. Especially when you are playing (mostly) a non-stax general.
I mean, you just have to give up on Norin being highly competitive.
Multiplayer? Completely different story. Players tend to fight the player about to win, which gives more time and preparation to the weaker players. That doesn't make Norin competitive. And this is why you will see (mostly) combo decks when you talk about "highly competitive multiplayer" (which is not something I like at all since you usually get 4 Hermit Druid decks trying to go off on turn 2 or 3). Combo has been around for decades now in the history of Magic. Some people must like it and I got no problem with that, but that's just not my thing.
Norin is a really fun deck to play and it is what it should be intended for. I mean, everyone is free to do whatever they want, but there will always be more consistent archetypes that win tournaments every week and others that do not. Have you ever seen any Norin list to a tournament recently? There is a big one in Paris on November 9. Even with the best decks being banned, there won't be any Norin list.
So let's maybe concentrate on Norin being a really fun, kind of weird, general. A very unique and awesome general actually. My favorite one yet.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Gonna take a hard pass on dualcaster then? I feel like your probably right with that call but I thought I'd at least give him a tryout. Honestly just the fact that he's a 2/2 I can flash in to Trigger etbs at instant speed seems like it would guarantee he wouldn't be a dead card.
As for battlesphere there isn't actually anything like that currently in the deck so you'll probably have to go after something you find less useful or redundant. A few possibilities that come to mind off the top of my head are:
Manic Vandal - tuktuk scrapper is better and more tutorable and theres other artifact hate
Warstorm surge - nearly matches in cost and you already have pandemonium. Plus giving this away really sucks
Grip of chaos - i hate how expensive this card is. I totally get this one's role but it sucks that playing it basically consumes a turn without necessarily getting immediate value. It also messes with a lot of our strategies too. Also removal (at least in my meta) is like 75% wraths so theres no guarantee it will stop anything
Honestly, Dualcaster is definitely playable in the deck. It's better than any other Fork effect that has ever been run in this deck. Gaka doesn't play any Fork in his list now (I don't either) but I agree with you that it is worth playtesting. Flash is something, it's kinda similar to the token generators except for the fact that it is a one-time only thing.
Battlesphere is pretty good, especially with Genesis Chamber. I personally play Wurmcoil too for the lifegain with our enchantments but I easily understand why people pass on it. About Warstorm Surge, I don't see why you would give this away. Because of Confusion? Don't play it in that specific case - it really doesn't happen often. It's better than Pandemonium, honestly, the 2 mana are worth it. There have been discussions about removing Pandemonium a while ago because you are often getting killed by it; every other players tend to use it on you since you get the most triggers thanks to Norin.
About Grip of Chaos, this is an awesome card... but it's unplayable. At least for me. Multiplayer game with 77 permanents and Chaos Warp being casted... that's just too complicated. There is a lot of cards in EDH that target any permanent and that makes it really hard to play on paper. And you can't just say something like... ok, we are 4 players, so let's roll the dice to decide which player it will be, and then roll another one to choose one of his 15 permanents. It doesn't work that way. Because a player with less permanents would be penalized if you do it this way. So you really have to number every of the 77 permanents from 1 to 77 and take your phone app or whatever to pick a random number. It's just long. It's like Radiate and Thieves' Auction. Really good chaos cards that tend to be hard to play IRL. I used to play every of these cards on MTGO however.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What I think you may be missing here, though, is that Gaka's deck is GEARED SPECIFICALLY to be multiplayer. And yes, it DOES win competitive multiplayer (and even 1v1 fairly consistently, as seen by my triumph over a BUNCH of decks in 1v1 using Gaka's list - granted, I had a lot of close calls, but I misplay like a wild boar who plays Magic... or something :P). I have beaten Reaper King, Sen Triplets, Kiku, Zur (very much an optimized deck), Kaalia, Skullbriar, Sharuum, Rhys the Redeemed, et al, all 1v1 - again, some close shaves but I won all of my games there.
My issues in the meta were only even in multiplayer, actually. As I said before, in multiplayer EDH, Norin gets hated out asap. I guess they are looking for Grip of Chaos to not resolve or something (and I can't blame them). But with 1v1 a player can easily overtake something stompy with relative ease and more than a little finesse in the process.
So, I mean, obviously metas all differ but I have taken down a lot of difficult decks with Norin - to the extent where the Wary Master of Fun even became unfun for me. That's a big factor on why I quit with Gatecrash coming in, as a matter of fact (plus there weren't enough players to switch up the multiplayer meta enough in my local playgroup back then but that's another story). My point is that Norin can be REALLY competitive if the deck wants to be. And Gaka's deck aims to be - just, oddly, for the wrong format of Commander.
What I think you may be missing here, though, is that Gaka's deck is GEARED SPECIFICALLY to be multiplayer. And yes, it DOES win competitive multiplayer (and even 1v1 fairly consistently, as seen by my triumph over a BUNCH of decks in 1v1 using Gaka's list - granted, I had a lot of close calls, but I misplay like a wild boar who plays Magic... or something :P). I have beaten Reaper King, Sen Triplets, Kiku, Zur (very much an optimized deck), Kaalia, Skullbriar, Sharuum, Rhys the Redeemed, et al, all 1v1 - again, some close shaves but I won all of my games there.
I'm not missing anything, I know that Norin is geared towards multiplayer. I'm not the one saying it is competitive in duel.
I would really love to see how it wins competitive tournaments against different fine-tuned decks. I would love to see how it overcomes a turn 2 Natural Order, Sylvan Library, Necropotence or turn 3 Doomsday win, really (since you would need counterspells). I guess it can deal with Hermit Druid, every deck does and red is good at it but you would be running a completely different list with every bad Lightning Bolt ever printed. This is how mono-red wins competitive 1v1. By doing 30 damages. The same way it does 20 damages pretty quickly in Modern, Pauper or even good 'ole legacy.
Consistency means winning at least an average of 50% of your competitive matches. I mean, if it's that good, we should all go play Norin in competitive tournaments. Probably that the deckbuilders here are really bad for not playing it. We must be some geniuses and could make a lot of money winning tournaments with Norin. I really don't understand why pro players never thought about Norin for the big EDH prized tournaments. It's not like Norin has never seen any play. It was played back in Standard when it came out with Soul's Attendant. And mono-red is definitely well represented since the print of Purphoros (and still doesn't win much). Red was winning more when Edric was legal and Pyroclasm a win.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What I think you may be missing here, though, is that Gaka's deck is GEARED SPECIFICALLY to be multiplayer. And yes, it DOES win competitive multiplayer (and even 1v1 fairly consistently, as seen by my triumph over a BUNCH of decks in 1v1 using Gaka's list - granted, I had a lot of close calls, but I misplay like a wild boar who plays Magic... or something :P). I have beaten Reaper King, Sen Triplets, Kiku, Zur (very much an optimized deck), Kaalia, Skullbriar, Sharuum, Rhys the Redeemed, et al, all 1v1 - again, some close shaves but I won all of my games there.
I'm not missing anything, I know that Norin is geared towards multiplayer. I'm not the one saying it is competitive in duel.
I assumed that the setting being discussed for the "competitive" side of things would be the infamous multiplayer pods. Norin is a multiplayer deck and thusly relies on the dynamics of that setting to function. In a multiplayer scenario, Norin can and will beat so called "finetuned" lists. When there are three other players sitting down, things get wonky, much to the delight of Norin. This is the multiplayer section, after all.
If you're trying to take Norin into a 1v1 situation, then you're dealing with an entirely seperate decklist that discludes about half of the multiplayer deck in favor of even more disruption - but now we get to run and not feel guilty about lots and lots of spot removal and singular interaction. Using a tuned 1v1 Norin list, Edric is a really easy matchup, actually. Most Red decks have something near to favourable against him. Zur is slightly tougher being 4 power, but still doable. But I digress. We're here to discuss this iteration; multiplayer.
Gonna take a hard pass on dualcaster then? I feel like your probably right with that call but I thought I'd at least give him a tryout. Honestly just the fact that he's a 2/2 I can flash in to Trigger etbs at instant speed seems like it would guarantee he wouldn't be a dead card.
As for battlesphere there isn't actually anything like that currently in the deck so you'll probably have to go after something you find less useful or redundant. A few possibilities that come to mind off the top of my head are:
Manic Vandal - tuktuk scrapper is better and more tutorable and theres other artifact hate
Warstorm surge - nearly matches in cost and you already have pandemonium. Plus giving this away really sucks
Grip of chaos - i hate how expensive this card is. I totally get this one's role but it sucks that playing it basically consumes a turn without necessarily getting immediate value. It also messes with a lot of our strategies too. Also removal (at least in my meta) is like 75% wraths so theres no guarantee it will stop anything
Dualcaster - Passing on this or not is highly, highly dependent on your meta. Mine has gotten a recent influx of newer players, or those who look at all the value creatures being printed lately and go "hey, these are pretty good." This means a much higher quantity of creatures and a much lower quantity of spells. Right now the only spells really being cast are the odd cultivate or fact or fiction. Granted red getting a copy of these is fantastic, but is it worth holding onto a Dualcaster and leaving three mana up in order to achieve this? To me, it's simply not worth it.
As for keeping him simply to trigger ETB effects - a small secret is that Norin doesn't have that many cards dependent on other ETB critters. The ones that we do have are already fueled nicely by Norin and splash goblins. Including a creature with the main purpose of triggering those effects so that it's not a "dead" card is better served by playing something that has relevance all of the time, or at the very least easily tutorable for those situations where you need it. Granted, he can be Imperial'd, but that's it. If this guy was a goblin there would be a much stronger case for inclusion simply based on the power of the Goblin toolbox at this point in the game.
Manic Vandal - I like this guy for three main reasons. 1) He's easy to cast
2r means you can drop him off of a mana crypt or sol ring and a land. This doesn't seem important, but this frees up highly valuable R for things like Siege-Gang Commander. This is highly relevant when you're trying to do relevant things. This sentence is irrelevant. Relevance.
Quite literally, the most basic and important aspect of the game is access to mana (screw you, dredge) and freeing up colors is always great.
2) He blows up artifacts
It's what the tin says. I dare you to think of an EDH deck that doesn't run a suite of high-powered artifacts, or just plain old Sol Ring and co. No, you're not allowed to use Dredgric as an example.
3) He's the second tutorable artifact deconstructor.
While being harder to tutor for than Tuktuk Scrapper, he is still a tutorable source of artifact destruction. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the other goblin artifact killers (though I grant it's been a long time since I looked) and if one showed greater worth, it would most likely take its place.
As an addendum to this portion - having multiple ways to kill artifacts is highly desired. I'm here to play EDH, not watch someone play solitaire and then suddenly declare "I win!"
Grip of Chaos - Honestly, learning to play with this card is the single most important thing you can learn in order to pilot this deck most effectively. It literally teaches you when to play removal, when not to, what type of removal to play, and how to deal with it, nevermind all the other lessons. Yes, it's expensive, but it's completely worth it. If I'm going to be spending 6 mana on a card, it better have a devastating impact on the game. If you tell me this card doesn't you're both wrong and too sober to play.
Hopefully this shows some of my problems. It's difficult to cut things without a really good reason. I feel that Battlesphere will bring enough to the table to be worth playing, but it's hard to tell what it will replace, as every cut has an impact on how the deck actually functions.
About Grip of Chaos, this is an awesome card... but it's unplayable. At least for me. Multiplayer game with 77 permanents and Chaos Warp being casted... that's just too complicated. There is a lot of cards in EDH that target any permanent and that makes it really hard to play on paper. And you can't just say something like... ok, we are 4 players, so let's roll the dice to decide which player it will be, and then roll another one to choose one of his 15 permanents. It doesn't work that way. Because a player with less permanents would be penalized if you do it this way. So you really have to number every of the 77 permanents from 1 to 77 and take your phone app or whatever to pick a random number. It's just long. It's like Radiate and Thieves' Auction. Really good chaos cards that tend to be hard to play IRL. I used to play every of these cards on MTGO however.
That's the point. Grip of Chaos exists to make the game complex, to confuse the opponent, and to find all the little edges that this brings. Most of all, it's great for drinking games. I'm perfectly willing to sit down with pen and paper and figure out exactly how everything resolves - EDH is about doing the strange and silly. Grip most certainly qualifies.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
What I think you may be missing here, though, is that Gaka's deck is GEARED SPECIFICALLY to be multiplayer. And yes, it DOES win competitive multiplayer (and even 1v1 fairly consistently, as seen by my triumph over a BUNCH of decks in 1v1 using Gaka's list - granted, I had a lot of close calls, but I misplay like a wild boar who plays Magic... or something :P). I have beaten Reaper King, Sen Triplets, Kiku, Zur (very much an optimized deck), Kaalia, Skullbriar, Sharuum, Rhys the Redeemed, et al, all 1v1 - again, some close shaves but I won all of my games there.
I'm not missing anything, I know that Norin is geared towards multiplayer. I'm not the one saying it is competitive in duel.
I assumed that the setting being discussed for the "competitive" side of things would be the infamous multiplayer pods. Norin is a multiplayer deck and thusly relies on the dynamics of that setting to function. In a multiplayer scenario, Norin can and will beat so called "finetuned" lists. When there are three other players sitting down, things get wonky, much to the delight of Norin. This is the multiplayer section, after all.
If you're trying to take Norin into a 1v1 situation, then you're dealing with an entirely seperate decklist that discludes about half of the multiplayer deck in favor of even more disruption - but now we get to run and not feel guilty about lots and lots of spot removal and singular interaction. Using a tuned 1v1 Norin list, Edric is a really easy matchup, actually. Most Red decks have something near to favourable against him. Zur is slightly tougher being 4 power, but still doable. But I digress. We're here to discuss this iteration; multiplayer.
I'm done arguing on this, you are a genius and you know better than all these people playing for hundreds if not thousands of dollars (or euros) anyway. Norin wins hands-down against both Edric and GAAIV and that's why we never saw it played EVER at a tournament.
That's the point. Grip of Chaos exists to make the game complex, to confuse the opponent, and to find all the little edges that this brings. Most of all, it's great for drinking games. I'm perfectly willing to sit down with pen and paper and figure out exactly how everything resolves - EDH is about doing the strange and silly. Grip most certainly qualifies.
Well, this is different in my meta. Resolving a simple spell against the Grip can take about 4-5 minutes in games that tend to take already more than an hour. Grip helps making the game lasting 2-3 hours, that's for sure. I'm not completely against really long games. But when those 3 hours are used to write permanents on a paper to figure out how to resolve the stack, that's a different matter.
Radiate on Chaos Warp is a fun tech (it just shows well why everyone auto-scoops, myself included, to things like that). Just thinking about which permanent you shuffle first and writing down the order... your opponents have time for a great night of sleep. Actually resolving the stack can take a few days. I guess you are being masochist if that's what you like about the game, but this is fine. I try to play something actually playable and not cards that everyone scoop to because it completely makes the game unfun, making every spell taking 10 mins to resolve.
I had fun with it on MTGO though, where resolving the Grip triggers is immediate, and I had my problems with the card hosing my own deck too, but that's a completely different matter.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Ok fair enough. You didn't rule out warstorm surge so is that one you are considering? If I remember right you tossed that out once before already, I actually didn't realize until now that it made it back in. It's a great card but if you are looking to fill one of your high-cost card slots with something big and threatening that isn't dependent on Norin or anything else I suppose that could be cuttable.
Otherwise I guess I'd have to ask what is making you feel like you need to add the battlesphere? I've definitely had points in games where I thought the battlesphere or the Wurmcoil would be really great right now but I've never felt an overwhelming need to add them. Also personally I've felt a stronger pull toward the Wurmcoil than the battlesphere. The amount of creatures the battlesphere puts into play immediately is fantastic but the Wurmcoil is just scary. Deathtouch, lifelink, gets more dangerous if you kill it, etc. Giving it away does suck a heck of a lot more than giving away the battlesphere though, I'll give you that.
Anyway I'm sure we could all suggest cards, there's a lot of polarizing cards in the deck (part of what makes it so fun!) But it might be easier if you explained a bit more of your thinking there on why a big threat must go in now. Is it cause daretti and feldon give us a two more ways of cheating it into play so now it may be worth its cost?
I would suppose so. before, the only way you were going to reuse a big artifact creature was just welder or trading post. now daretti and feldon are added to the mix, so i think it would be reasonable to add one or two big utility creatures that can double as a threat (lol at me depicting wurmcoil as an utility creature in here. but it is). even if trading post is gone, because feldon is that good.
wurmcoil is one of those without a second thought.
i am tempted to run steel hellkite more than myr battlesphere.
about manic vandal, i use viashino heretic instead (and here might be one other reason i value haste effects so greatly). ends up costing more mana and he is slower, but he's slightly more useful as a burn spell on legs.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
until now i juggled about with karn liberated, steel hellkite and spine of ish sah as permanent removal. the spot went to liquimetal coating (!) but i never tested enough the dragon to do anything more than theorycrafting here. I know that liquimetal coating is going out of the deck, especially with the new mana rock of ish sah finding its way in, so hellkite stays as as a good candidate for a second artifact beatstick, which i feel will be needed after cmdr2014.
I have a Karn, Silver Golem deck I tried the hellkite in, never given him a shot in norin. He didn't last long there, idk how I feel about him here either. Norin has a shot at giving him haste which makes him a bit more effective, that basically never happened in Karn. But honestly I'm not really overly impressed with him. He looks like a big threat but in reality I've never found his impact on the game to be too big. Sure maybe he gets through and you get to take out a few mana producing things or their guy with hexproof that's driving you crazy. But in reality he's not the biggest flyer, he has no natural way to protect himself, he can only hit people one at a time, he basically requires you to attack with him, and he frequently gets taken out before he even has a chance to impact the game.
That being said he does have a chance at providing two things I've frequently wished for while playing norin: untargetted removal and a way to destroy enchantments. Maybe that alone is worth it? I think I'd rather go with wurm or battlesphere because they clear and immediate value when they are played but I could see maybe making an argument for him.
The only spot I can see for the Dragon is removing Wurmcoil from my own list but it has been so good for me.
With Welder it is just huge card advantage, with Pandemonium/Surge it's 6dmg + 6lifegain on ETB and then you add 6 more dmg and 3 lifegain for the tokens. Looks like a 21 damage difference to me, it can't be bad really.
This is about it though, but I don't have any other way to gain life.
Karn is good in every deck, really, but he just doesn't do anything special with Norin. Not flavorful enough for me but gems definitely good -- he always is.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Hellkite's more of a removal on legs than a beatstick. Yes, he hits people one at a time, but it eats enchants etc you wouldn't otherwise be able to touch. I never tested him, but I'd never, ever consider the nature in which he operates a downside.
Also on the topic of artifact removal - being able to tutor answers is what kicks up the consistency of a deck's performance. As such, Tuktuk Scrapper may lack the staying power of the Heretic and costs 1 mana more than a Vandal, but HE IS HIT BY MORE TUTORS. This makes him more accessible. Which is good.
I always played the Scrapper. The more competitive is your meta, the more you will want to run artifact removal. I prefer Shattering Spree over Vandalblast because of the synergy with Possibility Storm (otherwise I think it's really a cointoss since both cards are good), but I'd play both in a more competitive meta.
I don't think I'll try the Hellkite, too many ifs. 6 mana, needs to hit, mostly needs to be haste, needs mana and only hits one player...
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It's great to see lots of discussion here on the thread. I've been reading the last couple of days without posting just to see where the discussion goes.
So first of all a few words about the "competitive or not competitive" issue. I strongly believe that the competitive side of a deck or a match is given by the player, if you want to play competetively you will build your deck towards that objective and you will play that way (making tons of douchebag plays during the game). I win a lot of games with the deck, both multiplayer and singleplayer being this last ones the fewest. The deck shines in multiplayer enviroments where you can abuse of your gameplan and sinergies better. I play the deck myself to have fun and to give fun to others; im recognised at my LGS for that. Of course i can play the deck competitively and of course that the decklist will change if im planning to attend an event with the deck. Personally i won several side events at different GPs here in South America, it was a combination of deck knowledge, strong gameplay and of course: simple luck.
Second: the A-Bomb issue, or the big artifact slot we all desire. I tested the three of them: Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere and Steel Hellkite, and i must say that the hellkite is just bad. It needs a lot of factors to impact postively in the game for us, otherwise is just a bad mana investment. Then you got the wurm and the myr. Both are great cards for the deck, the wurm gives us more "durability" and long term benefits, while the myr gives us burst power. I personally prefer the myr for having more (and "better") interactions with other cards in the deck (such as Purphoros and Genesis Chamber).
Third: artifact removal. Both the vandal and the scrapper are good because they are tutorable and they are creatures. On the third spot i use the Shattering Spree for being better against blue decks, and because unless you play against monobrown you wont need the 5 mana to destroy relevants artifacts in the field.
Fourth: There is a fourth? idk but i must insist that reading all this discussion here is amazing. I love the deck and every word by everyone of you lets me analize and improves not only my deck but my mechanics with the deck. Keep the discussion alive! And remember that above all this is a game and the purpose is supposed to be having fun
(i apologize for my poor grammar skills but im not a native english speaker).
my order of preference:
daretti
(scroll rack)
rummaging goblin
faithless looting
deal broker
(viashino racketeer)
mad prophet
(mind's eye)
crystal ball
i think i already wrote in another thread how the 4 cmc kills the prophet, even if he can loot for you instantly; i would consider Viashino Racketeer before him simply by recalling games where i badly needed a 4th land that i couldn't draw.
that said, i would only try and include the first 4, with deal broker as disposable if something else needs space.
after other testings, i suppose i'd prefer deal broker instead of mind's eye (i don't have usually that much mana spare to spend a turn dropping it, then leaving 4+ mana open the following turn, and it's only good in combo with honor-worn shaku). i find scroll rack superior to it too, to be honest.
other than the topic at hand, i tested mana vault. it was great when i had an early confusion in the ranks (t1 mana vault, t2 confusion in the ranks, t3 norin) or similar win condition, and sub par in the other cases. other than this, norin doesn't want to turn the table against him in the early game, which is usually the result of the 3 mana ramp earlier than t3, so i guess cutting it would improve the overall games. i'm wondering about treasonous ogre as well though, especially with some win conditions that are mana hungry in my wishboard (which i still need to keep in consideration even if not widely permitted in edh), such as burn at the stake.
i promise to put together a list soon enough, rather than keep mumbling about possibilities.
URGEDH Biovisionary.dec BShirei WBSelenia
The brain is the muscle that pumps stupid through the body
lol, I really hope they never print such a card
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Not sure what meta you are playing in, but in my meta it's really nowhere from being the bigger threat. Uril and Oloro are way worse (and more competitive).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
URGEDH Biovisionary.dec BShirei WBSelenia
The brain is the muscle that pumps stupid through the body
But yeah, against new players playing the precon decks... I could see Norin winning like every game.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
See, this is kind of interesting - I've been playing this deck to great success in both highly competitive and fairly casual settings. How the deck functions in either environment is entirely up to the choices you make and the lines you play. I'd be completely willing (and have) to take this into a side-event at a GP or PT, an I'd fully expect to have a reasonable chance of winning. Every deck is beatable, regardless of any perceived "power imbalances." Norin has been constructed and tested to deal with the widest possible variance of decks, and its competitiveness is entirely reliant on the pilot. Which is just the way I like it.
Don't even doubt the capability of a mono-colored deck. Simply being monocolored is a great way to abuse decks that require specific mana costs or timings. Stuff like Blood Moon or Ruination are fantastic ways to disrupt three color decks. Goblin Settler backs that up if you really need to take out a basic. Don't be afraid to be a jerk in order to stop shenanigans. You're the only one allowed to use that word, it's been banned by the RC for all other decks. You can look it up. I didn't.
Norin is certainly scary. It's a four player game, not a 1v1v1v1. Take advantage of it. You're red. You're loaded with every piece of disruption and then some more. When that's not enough, you can steal their disruption to disrupt them with. C'mon! It's like eating your cake and having it, too. Chocolate cake.
On an individual card-based topic: Grinning Ignus. I'm not a fan of it, but I understand where y'all are coming from. Slightly delayed ramp that can double as a forced Pandemonium/ect trigger machine. I don't usually favor cards that blink for the sake of blinking (we've already got one that's literally immortal on turn 1!) but I'm willing to give it another go. Which leaves me with another problem... I'm still looking to see what could possibly be cut for Myr Battlesphere testing. The previous possibilities of Daretti and Feldon in for Post and Racketeer are pretty much shoe-ins come Friday, such are the experiences I've had with some really terribly drawn proxies. Seriously, don't hire me for art.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
As for battlesphere there isn't actually anything like that currently in the deck so you'll probably have to go after something you find less useful or redundant. A few possibilities that come to mind off the top of my head are:
Manic Vandal - tuktuk scrapper is better and more tutorable and theres other artifact hate
Warstorm surge - nearly matches in cost and you already have pandemonium. Plus giving this away really sucks
Grip of chaos - i hate how expensive this card is. I totally get this one's role but it sucks that playing it basically consumes a turn without necessarily getting immediate value. It also messes with a lot of our strategies too. Also removal (at least in my meta) is like 75% wraths so theres no guarantee it will stop anything
I honestly stopped reading there. I know this isn't the first time we have this debate and all I can think of while reading this is that you never piloted a true competitive EDH deck.
I never said mono-colored decks can't win. Blue decks do win. Green too. And yeah, even red can pull some wins. Every deck can win a game or a match. Or even a tournament. But not every deck can win with consistency. Norin can't win with consistency. Just take what you call a "highly competitive Norin" on MTGO and I will play any of Edric, Oloro or Zuur. I can guarantee you that Norin doesn't even stand a chance. You will look after your only one inclusion of untutorable graveyard hate in your deck, and you will do the same for your artifact removal. Even assuming that you decide to run every artifact removal spells that red has, you are still playing red. Sylvan Library will still completely overwhelm you in card advantage, because red can't deal with it easily. The game will be over way before you managed to detroy it. My old competitive Edric deck had an average-CMC of 2.2 and this is considered really high for Edric. Most competitive decks tend to play mostly spells that cost 3 or less. Norin doesn't, and adding Mana Crypt and Sol Ring won't help, it's either destroyed on sight or your opponent can just deal (and enjoy) the high-CMC cards you will try to resolve after. The stax package won't do either, because competitive decks all play it and are all build around it. Especially when you are playing (mostly) a non-stax general.
I mean, you just have to give up on Norin being highly competitive.
Multiplayer? Completely different story. Players tend to fight the player about to win, which gives more time and preparation to the weaker players. That doesn't make Norin competitive. And this is why you will see (mostly) combo decks when you talk about "highly competitive multiplayer" (which is not something I like at all since you usually get 4 Hermit Druid decks trying to go off on turn 2 or 3). Combo has been around for decades now in the history of Magic. Some people must like it and I got no problem with that, but that's just not my thing.
Norin is a really fun deck to play and it is what it should be intended for. I mean, everyone is free to do whatever they want, but there will always be more consistent archetypes that win tournaments every week and others that do not. Have you ever seen any Norin list to a tournament recently? There is a big one in Paris on November 9. Even with the best decks being banned, there won't be any Norin list.
So let's maybe concentrate on Norin being a really fun, kind of weird, general. A very unique and awesome general actually. My favorite one yet.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Honestly, Dualcaster is definitely playable in the deck. It's better than any other Fork effect that has ever been run in this deck. Gaka doesn't play any Fork in his list now (I don't either) but I agree with you that it is worth playtesting. Flash is something, it's kinda similar to the token generators except for the fact that it is a one-time only thing.
Battlesphere is pretty good, especially with Genesis Chamber. I personally play Wurmcoil too for the lifegain with our enchantments but I easily understand why people pass on it. About Warstorm Surge, I don't see why you would give this away. Because of Confusion? Don't play it in that specific case - it really doesn't happen often. It's better than Pandemonium, honestly, the 2 mana are worth it. There have been discussions about removing Pandemonium a while ago because you are often getting killed by it; every other players tend to use it on you since you get the most triggers thanks to Norin.
About Grip of Chaos, this is an awesome card... but it's unplayable. At least for me. Multiplayer game with 77 permanents and Chaos Warp being casted... that's just too complicated. There is a lot of cards in EDH that target any permanent and that makes it really hard to play on paper. And you can't just say something like... ok, we are 4 players, so let's roll the dice to decide which player it will be, and then roll another one to choose one of his 15 permanents. It doesn't work that way. Because a player with less permanents would be penalized if you do it this way. So you really have to number every of the 77 permanents from 1 to 77 and take your phone app or whatever to pick a random number. It's just long. It's like Radiate and Thieves' Auction. Really good chaos cards that tend to be hard to play IRL. I used to play every of these cards on MTGO however.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My issues in the meta were only even in multiplayer, actually. As I said before, in multiplayer EDH, Norin gets hated out asap. I guess they are looking for Grip of Chaos to not resolve or something (and I can't blame them). But with 1v1 a player can easily overtake something stompy with relative ease and more than a little finesse in the process.
So, I mean, obviously metas all differ but I have taken down a lot of difficult decks with Norin - to the extent where the Wary Master of Fun even became unfun for me. That's a big factor on why I quit with Gatecrash coming in, as a matter of fact (plus there weren't enough players to switch up the multiplayer meta enough in my local playgroup back then but that's another story). My point is that Norin can be REALLY competitive if the deck wants to be. And Gaka's deck aims to be - just, oddly, for the wrong format of Commander.
~Lil Kalki
Church of the Wary
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
I'm not missing anything, I know that Norin is geared towards multiplayer. I'm not the one saying it is competitive in duel.
I would really love to see how it wins competitive tournaments against different fine-tuned decks. I would love to see how it overcomes a turn 2 Natural Order, Sylvan Library, Necropotence or turn 3 Doomsday win, really (since you would need counterspells). I guess it can deal with Hermit Druid, every deck does and red is good at it but you would be running a completely different list with every bad Lightning Bolt ever printed. This is how mono-red wins competitive 1v1. By doing 30 damages. The same way it does 20 damages pretty quickly in Modern, Pauper or even good 'ole legacy.
Consistency means winning at least an average of 50% of your competitive matches. I mean, if it's that good, we should all go play Norin in competitive tournaments. Probably that the deckbuilders here are really bad for not playing it. We must be some geniuses and could make a lot of money winning tournaments with Norin. I really don't understand why pro players never thought about Norin for the big EDH prized tournaments. It's not like Norin has never seen any play. It was played back in Standard when it came out with Soul's Attendant. And mono-red is definitely well represented since the print of Purphoros (and still doesn't win much). Red was winning more when Edric was legal and Pyroclasm a win.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I assumed that the setting being discussed for the "competitive" side of things would be the infamous multiplayer pods. Norin is a multiplayer deck and thusly relies on the dynamics of that setting to function. In a multiplayer scenario, Norin can and will beat so called "finetuned" lists. When there are three other players sitting down, things get wonky, much to the delight of Norin. This is the multiplayer section, after all.
If you're trying to take Norin into a 1v1 situation, then you're dealing with an entirely seperate decklist that discludes about half of the multiplayer deck in favor of even more disruption - but now we get to run and not feel guilty about lots and lots of spot removal and singular interaction. Using a tuned 1v1 Norin list, Edric is a really easy matchup, actually. Most Red decks have something near to favourable against him. Zur is slightly tougher being 4 power, but still doable. But I digress. We're here to discuss this iteration; multiplayer.
Dualcaster - Passing on this or not is highly, highly dependent on your meta. Mine has gotten a recent influx of newer players, or those who look at all the value creatures being printed lately and go "hey, these are pretty good." This means a much higher quantity of creatures and a much lower quantity of spells. Right now the only spells really being cast are the odd cultivate or fact or fiction. Granted red getting a copy of these is fantastic, but is it worth holding onto a Dualcaster and leaving three mana up in order to achieve this? To me, it's simply not worth it.
As for keeping him simply to trigger ETB effects - a small secret is that Norin doesn't have that many cards dependent on other ETB critters. The ones that we do have are already fueled nicely by Norin and splash goblins. Including a creature with the main purpose of triggering those effects so that it's not a "dead" card is better served by playing something that has relevance all of the time, or at the very least easily tutorable for those situations where you need it. Granted, he can be Imperial'd, but that's it. If this guy was a goblin there would be a much stronger case for inclusion simply based on the power of the Goblin toolbox at this point in the game.
Manic Vandal - I like this guy for three main reasons.
1) He's easy to cast
2r means you can drop him off of a mana crypt or sol ring and a land. This doesn't seem important, but this frees up highly valuable R for things like Siege-Gang Commander. This is highly relevant when you're trying to do relevant things. This sentence is irrelevant. Relevance.
Quite literally, the most basic and important aspect of the game is access to mana (screw you, dredge) and freeing up colors is always great.
2) He blows up artifacts
It's what the tin says. I dare you to think of an EDH deck that doesn't run a suite of high-powered artifacts, or just plain old Sol Ring and co. No, you're not allowed to use Dredgric as an example.
3) He's the second tutorable artifact deconstructor.
While being harder to tutor for than Tuktuk Scrapper, he is still a tutorable source of artifact destruction. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the other goblin artifact killers (though I grant it's been a long time since I looked) and if one showed greater worth, it would most likely take its place.
As an addendum to this portion - having multiple ways to kill artifacts is highly desired. I'm here to play EDH, not watch someone play solitaire and then suddenly declare "I win!"
Grip of Chaos - Honestly, learning to play with this card is the single most important thing you can learn in order to pilot this deck most effectively. It literally teaches you when to play removal, when not to, what type of removal to play, and how to deal with it, nevermind all the other lessons. Yes, it's expensive, but it's completely worth it. If I'm going to be spending 6 mana on a card, it better have a devastating impact on the game. If you tell me this card doesn't you're both wrong and too sober to play.
Hopefully this shows some of my problems. It's difficult to cut things without a really good reason. I feel that Battlesphere will bring enough to the table to be worth playing, but it's hard to tell what it will replace, as every cut has an impact on how the deck actually functions.
That's the point. Grip of Chaos exists to make the game complex, to confuse the opponent, and to find all the little edges that this brings. Most of all, it's great for drinking games. I'm perfectly willing to sit down with pen and paper and figure out exactly how everything resolves - EDH is about doing the strange and silly. Grip most certainly qualifies.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Well, this is different in my meta. Resolving a simple spell against the Grip can take about 4-5 minutes in games that tend to take already more than an hour. Grip helps making the game lasting 2-3 hours, that's for sure. I'm not completely against really long games. But when those 3 hours are used to write permanents on a paper to figure out how to resolve the stack, that's a different matter.
Radiate on Chaos Warp is a fun tech (it just shows well why everyone auto-scoops, myself included, to things like that). Just thinking about which permanent you shuffle first and writing down the order... your opponents have time for a great night of sleep. Actually resolving the stack can take a few days. I guess you are being masochist if that's what you like about the game, but this is fine. I try to play something actually playable and not cards that everyone scoop to because it completely makes the game unfun, making every spell taking 10 mins to resolve.
I had fun with it on MTGO though, where resolving the Grip triggers is immediate, and I had my problems with the card hosing my own deck too, but that's a completely different matter.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Otherwise I guess I'd have to ask what is making you feel like you need to add the battlesphere? I've definitely had points in games where I thought the battlesphere or the Wurmcoil would be really great right now but I've never felt an overwhelming need to add them. Also personally I've felt a stronger pull toward the Wurmcoil than the battlesphere. The amount of creatures the battlesphere puts into play immediately is fantastic but the Wurmcoil is just scary. Deathtouch, lifelink, gets more dangerous if you kill it, etc. Giving it away does suck a heck of a lot more than giving away the battlesphere though, I'll give you that.
Anyway I'm sure we could all suggest cards, there's a lot of polarizing cards in the deck (part of what makes it so fun!) But it might be easier if you explained a bit more of your thinking there on why a big threat must go in now. Is it cause daretti and feldon give us a two more ways of cheating it into play so now it may be worth its cost?
wurmcoil is one of those without a second thought.
i am tempted to run steel hellkite more than myr battlesphere.
about manic vandal, i use viashino heretic instead (and here might be one other reason i value haste effects so greatly). ends up costing more mana and he is slower, but he's slightly more useful as a burn spell on legs.
I never playtested it. Have you? I would be interested in some feedbacks on him, he's a really interesting Dragon.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That being said he does have a chance at providing two things I've frequently wished for while playing norin: untargetted removal and a way to destroy enchantments. Maybe that alone is worth it? I think I'd rather go with wurm or battlesphere because they clear and immediate value when they are played but I could see maybe making an argument for him.
With Welder it is just huge card advantage, with Pandemonium/Surge it's 6dmg + 6lifegain on ETB and then you add 6 more dmg and 3 lifegain for the tokens. Looks like a 21 damage difference to me, it can't be bad really.
This is about it though, but I don't have any other way to gain life.
Karn is good in every deck, really, but he just doesn't do anything special with Norin. Not flavorful enough for me but gems definitely good -- he always is.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Also on the topic of artifact removal - being able to tutor answers is what kicks up the consistency of a deck's performance. As such, Tuktuk Scrapper may lack the staying power of the Heretic and costs 1 mana more than a Vandal, but HE IS HIT BY MORE TUTORS. This makes him more accessible. Which is good.
I don't think I'll try the Hellkite, too many ifs. 6 mana, needs to hit, mostly needs to be haste, needs mana and only hits one player...
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I know I'm formally not entitled to comment here as I don't run a Norin, but I run a deck with one of the wincons here as the general so bear with me
So first of all a few words about the "competitive or not competitive" issue. I strongly believe that the competitive side of a deck or a match is given by the player, if you want to play competetively you will build your deck towards that objective and you will play that way (making tons of douchebag plays during the game). I win a lot of games with the deck, both multiplayer and singleplayer being this last ones the fewest. The deck shines in multiplayer enviroments where you can abuse of your gameplan and sinergies better. I play the deck myself to have fun and to give fun to others; im recognised at my LGS for that. Of course i can play the deck competitively and of course that the decklist will change if im planning to attend an event with the deck. Personally i won several side events at different GPs here in South America, it was a combination of deck knowledge, strong gameplay and of course: simple luck.
Second: the A-Bomb issue, or the big artifact slot we all desire. I tested the three of them: Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere and Steel Hellkite, and i must say that the hellkite is just bad. It needs a lot of factors to impact postively in the game for us, otherwise is just a bad mana investment. Then you got the wurm and the myr. Both are great cards for the deck, the wurm gives us more "durability" and long term benefits, while the myr gives us burst power. I personally prefer the myr for having more (and "better") interactions with other cards in the deck (such as Purphoros and Genesis Chamber).
Third: artifact removal. Both the vandal and the scrapper are good because they are tutorable and they are creatures. On the third spot i use the Shattering Spree for being better against blue decks, and because unless you play against monobrown you wont need the 5 mana to destroy relevants artifacts in the field.
Fourth: There is a fourth? idk but i must insist that reading all this discussion here is amazing. I love the deck and every word by everyone of you lets me analize and improves not only my deck but my mechanics with the deck. Keep the discussion alive! And remember that above all this is a game and the purpose is supposed to be having fun
(i apologize for my poor grammar skills but im not a native english speaker).
daretti
(scroll rack)
rummaging goblin
faithless looting
deal broker
(viashino racketeer)
mad prophet
(mind's eye)
crystal ball
i think i already wrote in another thread how the 4 cmc kills the prophet, even if he can loot for you instantly; i would consider Viashino Racketeer before him simply by recalling games where i badly needed a 4th land that i couldn't draw.
that said, i would only try and include the first 4, with deal broker as disposable if something else needs space.
after other testings, i suppose i'd prefer deal broker instead of mind's eye (i don't have usually that much mana spare to spend a turn dropping it, then leaving 4+ mana open the following turn, and it's only good in combo with honor-worn shaku). i find scroll rack superior to it too, to be honest.
other than the topic at hand, i tested mana vault. it was great when i had an early confusion in the ranks (t1 mana vault, t2 confusion in the ranks, t3 norin) or similar win condition, and sub par in the other cases. other than this, norin doesn't want to turn the table against him in the early game, which is usually the result of the 3 mana ramp earlier than t3, so i guess cutting it would improve the overall games. i'm wondering about treasonous ogre as well though, especially with some win conditions that are mana hungry in my wishboard (which i still need to keep in consideration even if not widely permitted in edh), such as burn at the stake.
i promise to put together a list soon enough, rather than keep mumbling about possibilities.