I completely missed that someone had commented on this! Thanks for checking out the list and for putting up your own. I'm definitely curious about how some of those have been performing for you!
I actually really like Phage. Her downside is not exactly difficult to play around provided you don't have a ton of mass res cards in your meta (and even if you do, targeted GY hate is fantastic stuff) and she can't be used against you before you can play her. She fits pretty well here. I'd see if you can find a copy of Shizo, Death's Storehouse to complement her and make a 3-turn Sisters kill that much easier. It does almost nothing negative to your manabase either, seeing as it taps for colored mana and comes in untapped. It's one of my pet cards in here, which tells me I should probably be considering Rogue's Passage for my own list.
How has Gyre Sage been doing for you? I added one in, but I haven't seen it in any of the games I've played yet. I can't decide if it's a solid mana elf or a dud.
Emerald Charm is another interesting choice. I'm guessing you threw it in for the untap effect, but the enchantment hate mode is very useful and the last one is situationally good. I could see that being a useful one, so I'm curious about your experiences with it so far.
Have you been finding enough to do with Seedborn Muse? I like that she lets you use Sisters on attack and defense, and there are a few solid tap effects there, but I can't decide if that makes her good enough to make the cut. I'm definitely interested in hearing how she's been doing.
I like the list overall. You've taken the theme in an interesting direction, and I'm glad it's working out for you!
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Shizo, Death's Storehouse is a good one, might look into it. $4 is on my upper end, though, so it might be a bit before I acquire one.
As far as the new cards go, I haven't had too much of a playtest with them. When Gatecrash released, I finally built the boros deck I wanted with a splash of Orzhov (Kaalia of the Vast, decklist here) and I've been playing that extensively so I can work on it. But from what I've seen, Gyre Sage seems to work out well enough if I get the elves to support it. The evolve trigger isn't too hard to set off, and she is an elf, so it's pretty nice. Emerald Charm is amazing, really. I have used all three of it's modes, and your intuition is right on the enchantment kill mode. They're pretty powerful and prevalent in my meta, so it's probably the most common mode for it. I have used the untap ability, both on my own creatures and on opponent's creatures, and it's quite helpful. Really can't be beat for just G to cast. Seedborn Muse could be used more effectively, I imagine, and was pretty useful when I had more to tap for. But even without abusing it, the ability to go all-in on your own turn and then untap afterwards is extremely helpful. Given the amount of mana I've been making, I'm thinking of adding in a few things to make use of it, but I'd like to play with Sisters a little more to try to figure out what's not pulling its weight. Phage the Untouchable is probably my favorite card in the deck, and it's true that she's not too bad to work around. I think my favorite use of Phage to win a game went like this: Late game in a 4 player game. Opponents: My own Thraximundar deck, a Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and I think a Rhys the Redeemed deck. Thraximundar has a Grave Betrayal out and has been collecting creatures, which he uses to kill Jarad. Rhys goes after him and wipes the board. I have far too much mana for my own good. Topdeck gives me a Diabolic Revelation: I go and get Phage the Untouchable, Ring of Valkas, and Go for the Throat. I play Phage, give her haste, swing out the Rhys player, and then kill Phage. End of turn she comes back into play under Thraximundar's control, and her ability kills him. It was very fun.
I'm still working pretty hard on improving Kaalia, but I'm hoping that I can either lend out Sisters and watch her work or lend out Kaalia and play Sisters. If you've got the time, take a look at my Kaalia list and let me know what you think.
Shirei isn't going to completely turn the deck on end, but it's a wonderful piece of utility. Having an easy option to finish off opponents once you get some control is nice, but you can generally do that just as well without it. Sisters have a hell of an evasion mechanism, especially if you can give them trample.
If you're looking for more ways to make use of your ridiculous mana and/or Seedborn Muse, you might consider Tower of Calamities or Altar of Shadows. I've been eyeing them for a bit because of how much I've liked Tower of Fortunes here. Creature kill is obviously not as good as card draw, but the mana cost is obviously less of a concern here. Altar paying for further ridiculous plays is just gravy.
I think both of those are probably worse than Avatar of Woe or Visara the Dreadful with creature untapping shenanigans, but they're also easier for opponents to deal with. I have yet to try either of them, but I've been sorely tempted. A lot of this is just brainstorming on my end, but I'd love to hear about it if you try any of them out.
That Phage play is fantastic. I'm a big fan of things like that. I'm glad to hear you're still enjoying the list. I'll take a look at your Kaalia list, but I can't promise any great insights.
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Tower of Calamaties looks alright, I like that it's such a high amount of damage, but I'd like it more if it could hit players. Tower of Fortunes definitely pulls it's weight, though, so I'm not going to write it off completely, though. Altar of Shadows looks very good, I'd definitely put it in before the Tower of Calamaties because it's straight destroy and gains mana (Always more mana!) so it looks really fun.
I've looked at Avatar of Woe and Visara the Dreadful but neither of them seem quite good enough to run. I might consider them more when I get a proper test of the deck and notice I need some more targeted creature kill, but I've noticed that I have enough spells to deal with creatures.
I will say as of late I've been missing Wren's Run Packmaster and the stronger elf tribal I used to run. My friend aDubiousNotion just built a Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck that runs some elf tribal, though, so I'll probably play around with that a bit first before I make any major decisions.
Absolutely fantastic post. Thank you very much for the analysis of each card choice, hands and how we should expect the game to play out. I've been mulling over playing Sisters of Stone Death for some time now and this post just sold me on it.
Absolutely fantastic post. Thank you very much for the analysis of each card choice, hands and how we should expect the game to play out. I've been mulling over playing Sisters of Stone Death for some time now and this post just sold me on it.
Glad to hear it! I've had a lot of fun with this list, and they're a blast of a general to play. Get used to people stopping to read the card.
DGM has now been entirely spoiled, and there are some goodies to be had. Here's what I think has some potential. The card links should start working in a couple days, and I much prefer those to spoiler links in the long run.
Pontiff of Blight - He seems pretty well suited for a creature heavy deck with lots of cheap spells. I'm not sure it's worth it to add a six drop without immediate impact, but I could see this one doing a lot of damage over a couple turns. Not an immediate inclusion, but a solid possibility.
Deadbridge Chant - I suspect this is worse than something like Phyrexian Arena or Dark Tutelage. Most of the stuff in the yard is ramp and mana dorks, so this isn't going to be retrieving haymakers. It's certainly better with selective GY hate, to get rid of the bad stuff. I'll be considering it, but I don't think it has enough impact for its cost.
Gaze of Granite - This is probably the most likely card to make the cut. One of the reasons I like Pernicious Deed is the ability to set it off at X=7, which can generally clear the board of everything but Sisters when they're out. This has a similar effect and also hits walkers. The cost is a little high, but mana production has never been one of the elves shortcomings.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped - An interesting card, but he goes in a different direction than the rest of the deck. Scavenging elves is not exactly a power play. Some decks will love him and I'm sure he'll be a solid general, but he's not going to find a home here.
The set size and the number of guilds they have to smash into it means there's not a ton here for most decks, but it's got a couple solid options. The more exciting news from the last couple days is Staff of Domination making its way off the banlist. While there are about half a dozen ways to go infinite with it here, it's a solid inclusion just for the untap ability. I'm already running a number of those effects, and this is one of the most versatile in addition to being a great mana sink for the amounts the deck produces. If infinite combos are frowned upon in your respective groups, skip this one. Otherwise, I can't imagine many elf heavy decks that don't want a piece of this card.
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I updated the primer to include Staff of Domination. I haven't had a chance to pick up the DGM stuff I'm interested in, but I should have a Gaze of Granite and a Pontiff of Blight this weekend, and maybe Deadbridge Chant if it falls into my hands. No idea when I'll test them, as I'm spending most of my EDH games with Dralnu, Lich Lord right now.
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I cut Sakura-Tribe Elder for Crypt Ghast. Elder is a workhorse, but there's a lot of early ramp in here. Ghast does more in the late game and the extort could be pretty relevant with the number of little one drop elves in the deck.
I think I'd like to find space for Holistic Wisdom in here, but I'm not sure what to cut right now. It will probably end up being one of the higher costing cards, because Wisdom does eat some mana over time. It's also ridiculously powerful enough to justify it.
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This is just a list of all of the cards from the now fully spoiled M14 that I want to discuss, though I don't have time to write up thoughts on all of them, nor do I think many will actually make the deck. This is a placeholder so I'll remember what I'm interested in for later.
Dark Prophecy - you run a number of creatures but the fact that it only triggers for your own creatures seems like its more of a token enabling effect than anything. I think its a bit less impressive due to that for your current list.
Grim Return - I see it as mostly a worse Necromancy. If it were used in a list with say Snapcaster Mage in a draw go style of deck I think it could be really cool. Being that its actually a spell means that it should see some increased power in lists with blue as other things such as Archaeomancer and such can interact with it as well.
Rise of the Dark Realms its an interesting card for sure. Its best in ramp heavy decks that use creatures. I could definitely see it working out in here. I like it even more with sac outlets as a heavy theme as you can drop guys in the graveyard before executing it. It is a little situational around opponents using grave hate but since it hits all graveyards back for you it seems very promising. I like it in GB lists due to the ability to ramp into it and have fatties.
Elvish MysticFyndhorn Elves is already a thing which you were not using so I dont see how this is anything new as an option. I am not that impressed by them but they have some situations that are nice against (LD and wrath light metas)
Garruk, Caller of Beasts you have approximately 30 creatures meaning his +1 should net something like 1.5 creatures on average. I find it a little underwhelming in 30 creature lists but if people dont attack value engines or something he could be decent. I dont think he will be worth the asking $$$ early on though. If you can wait and want to play him probably a month or two in he should drop decently low.
Primeval Bounty I like this card. Its cool and does a lot of different things. I like it a lot more though as a voltron commander style of card though. I suppose big creatures all around are hard to really complain about though and free tokens and life also seem handy. I worry about how slow it might be to get value though since it costs 6 to drop in the first place.
Savage Summoning seems like a meta call for sure. If you have one thing you really need to push through and your meta is counter heavy then I can see it. Unfortunately though it seems a little underwhelming otherwise unless your meta is really crazy about counters.
Ha, I stole your thunder I could however see Rise of the Dark Realms and Primeval Bounty potentially being very useful cards though. Unfortunately they are both fairly expensive
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
ISB pretty much covered it, but I'll post thoughts anyways.
Dark Prophecy - Not so useful here. There are not a lot of sac outlets in the deck, and even the useless creatures are generally better staying on the board to fuel big mana elves so I have no desire to add more of them. I like this card a lot, but this deck will not be using it. Vish is stoked to have it, though.
Grim Return - Again, not so good when you're not controlling when creatures die. It's interesting, but the timing restriction makes it worse than existing options most of the time. This deck wants its own creatures more often than it wants opponents' and there are better ways of getting those back.
Rise of the Dark Realms - The only one with a real shot of making the deck. This has some potential to just swarm with elves, and it has the advantage of not refilling opposing boards as well (the reason I took the other mass res out of the deck). High costs have never been something I was overly concerned about here, due to the excessive ramp. I'll definitely be grabbing one of these to try it out.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - Not actually all that impressive. The reason I would consider him over other options is the aforementioned ridiculous ramp. I've had multiple games where I pulled all the basics from the deck, and he's slightly more likely to hit gas at that point. Still worse than just drawing cards most of the time. The ability is interesting enough that I'd like to play around with him and lock pieces, but that is not for this deck.
Primeval Bounty - I actually picked up DotP (or the Ooze promo and to teach my girlfriend a little more easily), and I spent most of the game playing with the green beats deck in that. This card frequently won games, so I'm looking forward to trying it out in a higher power environment. None of the abilities are particularly applicable here, unfortunately. The lifegain is probably most relevant and there are better cards for that if I want it.
Savage Summoning - This would actually be most interesting as a flash card, as I don't see a ton of counters most of the time. Even when I do, the nature of this deck is such that an awful lot of creatures need to be countered for it to matter, at which point it's easier to lay down a well timed wrath. In that sense, there are better options again. Typing this is making me realize that Yeva, Nature's Herald might be a fun one to try out, seeing as she gives pseudo haste to all the little mana dorks.
So there you have it. I don't think there are going to be any big changes, which is pretty normal for a deck with any amount of time put into it. Rise of the Dark Realms should be a fun one, but it's not going to change the nature of the deck at all.
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Somewhat Theros/Comm 2013 impressions to be found here.
Theros:
All the heroic stuff - No.
Abhorrent Overlord - Doesn't do enough for the cost, devotion to black is typically low in this deck.
Arbor Colossus - Good flying hate, but black already covers that pretty well with its creature kill and demons.
Bow of Nylea - Swiss army card. None of the modes are particularly useful here. I don't attack enough to make deathtouch very relevant, same for the +1/+1 counter. Flying hate is too small, lifegain is nice but not worth including a card for and also small, green and black already have fantastic recursion. I like this card, but I don't like it in this deck.
Burnished Hart - Way too slow for this deck. There are much better ways to ramp.
Colossus of Akros - Amusing but unnecessary. It doesn't really support any of the things this deck wants to do, and I'd rather use Sisters if I have that much mana without any other plans for it.
Disciple of Phenax - Same as Overlord. The effect isn't really good enough unless you can get this guy in and out of play repeatedly.
Erebos, God of the Dead - Not terrible, but kind of expensive and very black heavy. This deck does run into life trouble from time to time, and he wouldn't help that at all. Worth a shot, but I'm skeptical.
Fade into Antiquity - Exiling removal is always nice. I think I prefer the flexibility of my current pieces, but this isn't a bad one.
Grey Merchant of Asphodel - Same boat as the other black devotion dudes. I like the card a lot, this deck does not have the support for it.
Hero's Downfall - Solid removal. Less flexible than some of the other options, but still good. I'm unlikely to play it, because I can already answer walkers and there are more efficient options for creatures.
Hythonia the Cruel - Solid if you're playing gorgon tribal, expensive otherwise. Still kind of fun, just because of having a gorgon general. I might give her a shot out of courtesy.
Karametra's Acolyte - It would have been a shoo-in as an elf, I don't really want it as a human. It's pricey and probably overkill by the time it's really worth the cost.
Mistcutter Hydra - If you're really having trouble with blue decks, this is solid. Skip it otherwise.
Nighthowler - Reverse Bonehoard. Nice to make one creature a threat, but I normally want to be swarming or going off for a win.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Solid, but it might be overkill. This entire deck is kind of a shrine to overkill, so it could fit anyways.
Nylea's Disciple - Even though I occasionally run into life trouble, there are better ways to counteract that. Black steals it from opponents, for example.
Pharika's Mender - Not terrible, but outclassed by more general green recursion and black reanimation.
Polukranos, World Eater - Too expensive for what you get. If I want to go all in on a big threat that doubles as creature removal, I already have my general.
Read the Bones - Good low cost card draw. It doesn't smooth things out quite as well as I'd like at 3 cmc, but I could see it working out well.
Reaper of the Wilds - Generally powerful card, not exactly abusable here. It's going to pick up a lot of value just by sitting on the board though.
Rescue from the Underworld - Better in decks with more etb effects. It's just pricey reanimation otherwise.
Whip of Erebos - Exiling creatures is typically not worth it here, nor is reanimating some little mana dork. Lifelink is not a good enough reason to include this.
Witches' Eye - I would rather just draw cards, and most of my creatures are more involved in tapping for mana than tapping to scry.
Comm 2013: Baleful Force - Too expensive. Not particular synergy with the deck, either.
Bane of Progress - This is just stupid. Very powerful, almost certainly worth running.
All the other stuff - Doesn't do much for me. I'm happy to take another look at things if I'm missing something good.
All told, there's not a lot for this deck in the current crop of products. Nothing that I'm dying to get into the deck, barring maybe Bane of Progress.
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thanks a lot Weebo for your thoughts on all the newly released cards (and of course your awesome work on your primer), it's useful as always.
I think I'll try to add a bit of "Gorgon" flavor in my current list because I find it refreshing in the Commander World.
For now, I see Vraska the Unseen and Hythonia the Cruel which seem perfect.
Do you think Reaper of the Wilds is still good enough to be included too ?
thanks a lot Weebo for your thoughts on all the newly released cards (and of course your awesome work on your primer), it's useful as always.
I think I'll try to add a bit of "Gorgon" flavor in my current list because I find it refreshing in the Commander World.
For now, I see Vraska the Unseen and Hythonia the Cruel which seem perfect.
Do you think Reaper of the Wilds is still good enough to be included too ?
Any other Gorgons/suggestions that I may have missed ?
Thanks again !
Visara the Dreadful comes to mind. There's also Xathrid Gorgon out of the core set, which is great for flavor. I have no idea how that one actually plays.
Keeping in mind I that I haven't actually played with Reaper of the Wilds yet, I think she's solid. She's a cost-effective body, protects herself from spot removal, kills things bigger than she is, and the scry ability is going to pick up value from all over the board. Even without any kind of abuse on your part, creatures are going to die in multiplayer games, and she turns all of that into advantage for you. I don't think she's going to single-handedly win you games, but shes going to smooth out your draws and help you find the cards that will do that. I'd try her if you've got her. Let me know if you do!
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Visara the Dreadful comes to mind. There's also Xathrid Gorgon out of the core set, which is great for flavor. I have no idea how that one actually plays.
Keeping in mind I that I haven't actually played with Reaper of the Wilds yet, I think she's solid. She's a cost-effective body, protects herself from spot removal, kills things bigger than she is, and the scry ability is going to pick up value from all over the board. Even without any kind of abuse on your part, creatures are going to die in multiplayer games, and she turns all of that into advantage for you. I don't think she's going to single-handedly win you games, but shes going to smooth out your draws and help you find the cards that will do that. I'd try her if you've got her. Let me know if you do!
They're both great. I just didn't see the need for more than one, given access to black tutors. If you're going to go for it, odds are pretty good the table dies that turn anyways. While playing both at once might be fun, it's also a little bit overkill.
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I can't believe this has not been mentioned before: crypt ghast and pontiff of blight are white and cannot be used in a Golgari EDH deck. Other than that, I really like the list ;D
Actually, since extort has the mana symbols in reminder text, it doesn't count towards color identity. From the commander rules committee (mtgcommander.net) :"Reminder text is not included in the colour identity of a card." And more specifically, from the January 2013 update, "With the release of Gatecrash, we'd like to clarify our stance on Extort by confirming that, as always, reminder text has no effect on color identity. Extort adds no colored mana symbols to a card outside of its reminder text, and therefore is legal for play in Commander decks of any color or colors (as long as the card it appears on is otherwise legal, of course). There will be no updates to the rules in the foreseeable future that affect how Extort works in Commander." (Source:http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15321)
For a good reference as to why, look at trinisphere from it's Darksteel printing:
Just stopping in to say that I really like your Sisters list, so much that I've basically taken your ramp package and put it into a monogreen shell lead by Verdeloth the Ancient and for the couple games that I've played so far I have had pretty good success. My intent is to eventually turn it into a Sisters deck once I can open up some funds for some of the more expensive cards. I've even been thinking about trying jund and adding Olivia Voldaren for more fun stealsies.
Just stopping in to say that I really like your Sisters list, so much that I've basically taken your ramp package and put it into a monogreen shell lead by Verdeloth the Ancient and for the couple games that I've played so far I have had pretty good success. My intent is to eventually turn it into a Sisters deck once I can open up some funds for some of the more expensive cards. I've even been thinking about trying jund and adding Olivia Voldaren for more fun stealsies.
The ramp in here is great for mono-G too. Elves are pretty nuts for fast mana.
Pharika was hugely disappointing for this deck. I wasn't expecting a perfect fit, but she's pretty much unusable in here. I'll talk more about other stuff in the set when we have a full spoiler, but I wanted to express my disappointment with her.
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the full spoiler has now been posted on the mother site.
Unfortunately, it seems there isn't much for us in it, not to say nothing.
I'll still wait for your full review Weebo.
For my personal list, there are even no Gorgons in it !
There are some "Gorgon flavour" cards, but they are really bad...
I'm not all that bothered by the lack of gorgons in the new set, because my list is really elf tribal. I wasn't really expecting many goodies out of the set because of that, either. Here's the stuff I do think coiuld be worth a look:
Black Agent of Erebos - GY hate is an essential thing to include in this format, and this is the first time black has gotten it as a creature etb effect. There are already lots of other options, but if you don't have Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch, this can be a nice supplement to the Bojuka Bog I know you're already running. Better with more enchantments, but I'm not sure how often that would come up here.
Font of Return - I never really mind bringing dudes back to hand in this deck, because most of the power creatures that die cost 2-3 mana. This is still a less effective way of doing that than Phyrexian Reclamation and not as nice without some way to reuse it, but I could see it being alright. Spending one card to get three is perfectly defensible and there's probably and over-complicated way to go infinite with a couple big mana elves, a sac outlet, a haste source, and Eternal Witness. More complicated than it needs to be, but possible.
King Macar, the Gold-Cursed/other inspired guys - I'm only mentioning them because of the copious amounts of ways to untap creatures I run. Lacking an easy, non-combat way to tap them in the first place likely takes them out of contention, but there are a few ways to do it if you feel so inclined.
Silence the Believers - Multi-target exile. This is pretty solid if you need more spot removal, and elves are well suited to making the large amounts of mana it would take. I think there are better removal options, but a lot of them are a little bit older and less likely to be in trade binders.
Green Hydra Broodmaster - Not a terrible use for a bunch of mana, and you can find it with creature tutors. I think black offers more ways to take someone out with lots of mana and elves already swarm well. This is a more easily tutored Gelatinous Genesis, which is a very nice haymaker later in the game.
Nessian Game Warden - Mostly just worse than a tutor, and there are a lot of those. Cheap and easy to grab, though.
Setessan Tactics - Worse than black's removal. The only real reason to consider this is using it in conjunction with untapping to remove multiple creatures and that's mostly just cute.
Multicolored Nyx Weaver - My deck isn't GY focused enough to make good use of this, and the Regrowth is very much a single shot with the exile cost.
Pharika, God of Affliction - Not for this deck. I think she has a place in the format as GY hate out of the command zone, but there are cheaper hate cards that don't give away deathtouching chumps. She's a thematic inclusion if you're running a bunch of gorgons and Sisters' exile gets around her snakes, but that's it for good things I can say about her here.
Land/Colorless Mana Confluence - I typically don't have color fixing issues and this doesn't add to basic counts, so this isn't even on the radar.
Temple of Malady - CiPT is a more significant drawback than the scrying is an upside. Cheaper fixing than the older lands, but I'd expect to cut it with a stronger manabase.
Chariot of Victory - Not bad at all. Haste for one mana is nice with bigger mana elves, trample is nice for Sisters beats. I'm not sure that I have anything I would cut for this, but it's probably the most likely to make an appearance in my list.
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I actually really like Phage. Her downside is not exactly difficult to play around provided you don't have a ton of mass res cards in your meta (and even if you do, targeted GY hate is fantastic stuff) and she can't be used against you before you can play her. She fits pretty well here. I'd see if you can find a copy of Shizo, Death's Storehouse to complement her and make a 3-turn Sisters kill that much easier. It does almost nothing negative to your manabase either, seeing as it taps for colored mana and comes in untapped. It's one of my pet cards in here, which tells me I should probably be considering Rogue's Passage for my own list.
How has Gyre Sage been doing for you? I added one in, but I haven't seen it in any of the games I've played yet. I can't decide if it's a solid mana elf or a dud.
Emerald Charm is another interesting choice. I'm guessing you threw it in for the untap effect, but the enchantment hate mode is very useful and the last one is situationally good. I could see that being a useful one, so I'm curious about your experiences with it so far.
Have you been finding enough to do with Seedborn Muse? I like that she lets you use Sisters on attack and defense, and there are a few solid tap effects there, but I can't decide if that makes her good enough to make the cut. I'm definitely interested in hearing how she's been doing.
I like the list overall. You've taken the theme in an interesting direction, and I'm glad it's working out for you!
As far as the new cards go, I haven't had too much of a playtest with them. When Gatecrash released, I finally built the boros deck I wanted with a splash of Orzhov (Kaalia of the Vast, decklist here) and I've been playing that extensively so I can work on it. But from what I've seen, Gyre Sage seems to work out well enough if I get the elves to support it. The evolve trigger isn't too hard to set off, and she is an elf, so it's pretty nice.
Emerald Charm is amazing, really. I have used all three of it's modes, and your intuition is right on the enchantment kill mode. They're pretty powerful and prevalent in my meta, so it's probably the most common mode for it. I have used the untap ability, both on my own creatures and on opponent's creatures, and it's quite helpful. Really can't be beat for just G to cast.
Seedborn Muse could be used more effectively, I imagine, and was pretty useful when I had more to tap for. But even without abusing it, the ability to go all-in on your own turn and then untap afterwards is extremely helpful. Given the amount of mana I've been making, I'm thinking of adding in a few things to make use of it, but I'd like to play with Sisters a little more to try to figure out what's not pulling its weight.
Phage the Untouchable is probably my favorite card in the deck, and it's true that she's not too bad to work around. I think my favorite use of Phage to win a game went like this: Late game in a 4 player game. Opponents: My own Thraximundar deck, a Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and I think a Rhys the Redeemed deck. Thraximundar has a Grave Betrayal out and has been collecting creatures, which he uses to kill Jarad. Rhys goes after him and wipes the board. I have far too much mana for my own good. Topdeck gives me a Diabolic Revelation: I go and get Phage the Untouchable, Ring of Valkas, and Go for the Throat. I play Phage, give her haste, swing out the Rhys player, and then kill Phage. End of turn she comes back into play under Thraximundar's control, and her ability kills him. It was very fun.
I'm still working pretty hard on improving Kaalia, but I'm hoping that I can either lend out Sisters and watch her work or lend out Kaalia and play Sisters. If you've got the time, take a look at my Kaalia list and let me know what you think.
WBRKaalia of the Vast - Borzhov Legion (Batallion-inspired Kaalia)WBR
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
BGSisters of Stone Death - My list - Inspired ByBG
UBRThraximundarUBR
RAshling the PilgrimR
If you're looking for more ways to make use of your ridiculous mana and/or Seedborn Muse, you might consider Tower of Calamities or Altar of Shadows. I've been eyeing them for a bit because of how much I've liked Tower of Fortunes here. Creature kill is obviously not as good as card draw, but the mana cost is obviously less of a concern here. Altar paying for further ridiculous plays is just gravy.
I think both of those are probably worse than Avatar of Woe or Visara the Dreadful with creature untapping shenanigans, but they're also easier for opponents to deal with. I have yet to try either of them, but I've been sorely tempted. A lot of this is just brainstorming on my end, but I'd love to hear about it if you try any of them out.
That Phage play is fantastic. I'm a big fan of things like that. I'm glad to hear you're still enjoying the list. I'll take a look at your Kaalia list, but I can't promise any great insights.
I've looked at Avatar of Woe and Visara the Dreadful but neither of them seem quite good enough to run. I might consider them more when I get a proper test of the deck and notice I need some more targeted creature kill, but I've noticed that I have enough spells to deal with creatures.
I will say as of late I've been missing Wren's Run Packmaster and the stronger elf tribal I used to run. My friend aDubiousNotion just built a Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck that runs some elf tribal, though, so I'll probably play around with that a bit first before I make any major decisions.
WBRKaalia of the Vast - Borzhov Legion (Batallion-inspired Kaalia)WBR
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
BGSisters of Stone Death - My list - Inspired ByBG
UBRThraximundarUBR
RAshling the PilgrimR
Glad to hear it! I've had a lot of fun with this list, and they're a blast of a general to play. Get used to people stopping to read the card.
DGM has now been entirely spoiled, and there are some goodies to be had. Here's what I think has some potential. The card links should start working in a couple days, and I much prefer those to spoiler links in the long run.
Pontiff of Blight - He seems pretty well suited for a creature heavy deck with lots of cheap spells. I'm not sure it's worth it to add a six drop without immediate impact, but I could see this one doing a lot of damage over a couple turns. Not an immediate inclusion, but a solid possibility.
Deadbridge Chant - I suspect this is worse than something like Phyrexian Arena or Dark Tutelage. Most of the stuff in the yard is ramp and mana dorks, so this isn't going to be retrieving haymakers. It's certainly better with selective GY hate, to get rid of the bad stuff. I'll be considering it, but I don't think it has enough impact for its cost.
Gaze of Granite - This is probably the most likely card to make the cut. One of the reasons I like Pernicious Deed is the ability to set it off at X=7, which can generally clear the board of everything but Sisters when they're out. This has a similar effect and also hits walkers. The cost is a little high, but mana production has never been one of the elves shortcomings.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped - An interesting card, but he goes in a different direction than the rest of the deck. Scavenging elves is not exactly a power play. Some decks will love him and I'm sure he'll be a solid general, but he's not going to find a home here.
The set size and the number of guilds they have to smash into it means there's not a ton here for most decks, but it's got a couple solid options. The more exciting news from the last couple days is Staff of Domination making its way off the banlist. While there are about half a dozen ways to go infinite with it here, it's a solid inclusion just for the untap ability. I'm already running a number of those effects, and this is one of the most versatile in addition to being a great mana sink for the amounts the deck produces. If infinite combos are frowned upon in your respective groups, skip this one. Otherwise, I can't imagine many elf heavy decks that don't want a piece of this card.
I think I'd like to find space for Holistic Wisdom in here, but I'm not sure what to cut right now. It will probably end up being one of the higher costing cards, because Wisdom does eat some mana over time. It's also ridiculously powerful enough to justify it.
Dark Prophecy
Grim Return
Rise of the Dark Realms
Elvish Mystic
Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Primeval Bounty
Savage Summoning
Grim Return - I see it as mostly a worse Necromancy. If it were used in a list with say Snapcaster Mage in a draw go style of deck I think it could be really cool. Being that its actually a spell means that it should see some increased power in lists with blue as other things such as Archaeomancer and such can interact with it as well.
Rise of the Dark Realms its an interesting card for sure. Its best in ramp heavy decks that use creatures. I could definitely see it working out in here. I like it even more with sac outlets as a heavy theme as you can drop guys in the graveyard before executing it. It is a little situational around opponents using grave hate but since it hits all graveyards back for you it seems very promising. I like it in GB lists due to the ability to ramp into it and have fatties.
Elvish Mystic Fyndhorn Elves is already a thing which you were not using so I dont see how this is anything new as an option. I am not that impressed by them but they have some situations that are nice against (LD and wrath light metas)
Garruk, Caller of Beasts you have approximately 30 creatures meaning his +1 should net something like 1.5 creatures on average. I find it a little underwhelming in 30 creature lists but if people dont attack value engines or something he could be decent. I dont think he will be worth the asking $$$ early on though. If you can wait and want to play him probably a month or two in he should drop decently low.
Primeval Bounty I like this card. Its cool and does a lot of different things. I like it a lot more though as a voltron commander style of card though. I suppose big creatures all around are hard to really complain about though and free tokens and life also seem handy. I worry about how slow it might be to get value though since it costs 6 to drop in the first place.
Savage Summoning seems like a meta call for sure. If you have one thing you really need to push through and your meta is counter heavy then I can see it. Unfortunately though it seems a little underwhelming otherwise unless your meta is really crazy about counters.
Ha, I stole your thunder I could however see Rise of the Dark Realms and Primeval Bounty potentially being very useful cards though. Unfortunately they are both fairly expensive
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Dark Prophecy - Not so useful here. There are not a lot of sac outlets in the deck, and even the useless creatures are generally better staying on the board to fuel big mana elves so I have no desire to add more of them. I like this card a lot, but this deck will not be using it. Vish is stoked to have it, though.
Grim Return - Again, not so good when you're not controlling when creatures die. It's interesting, but the timing restriction makes it worse than existing options most of the time. This deck wants its own creatures more often than it wants opponents' and there are better ways of getting those back.
Rise of the Dark Realms - The only one with a real shot of making the deck. This has some potential to just swarm with elves, and it has the advantage of not refilling opposing boards as well (the reason I took the other mass res out of the deck). High costs have never been something I was overly concerned about here, due to the excessive ramp. I'll definitely be grabbing one of these to try it out.
Elvish Mystic - Basically an alt art Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - Not actually all that impressive. The reason I would consider him over other options is the aforementioned ridiculous ramp. I've had multiple games where I pulled all the basics from the deck, and he's slightly more likely to hit gas at that point. Still worse than just drawing cards most of the time. The ability is interesting enough that I'd like to play around with him and lock pieces, but that is not for this deck.
Primeval Bounty - I actually picked up DotP (or the Ooze promo and to teach my girlfriend a little more easily), and I spent most of the game playing with the green beats deck in that. This card frequently won games, so I'm looking forward to trying it out in a higher power environment. None of the abilities are particularly applicable here, unfortunately. The lifegain is probably most relevant and there are better cards for that if I want it.
Savage Summoning - This would actually be most interesting as a flash card, as I don't see a ton of counters most of the time. Even when I do, the nature of this deck is such that an awful lot of creatures need to be countered for it to matter, at which point it's easier to lay down a well timed wrath. In that sense, there are better options again. Typing this is making me realize that Yeva, Nature's Herald might be a fun one to try out, seeing as she gives pseudo haste to all the little mana dorks.
So there you have it. I don't think there are going to be any big changes, which is pretty normal for a deck with any amount of time put into it. Rise of the Dark Realms should be a fun one, but it's not going to change the nature of the deck at all.
Theros:
All the heroic stuff - No.
Abhorrent Overlord - Doesn't do enough for the cost, devotion to black is typically low in this deck.
Arbor Colossus - Good flying hate, but black already covers that pretty well with its creature kill and demons.
Bow of Nylea - Swiss army card. None of the modes are particularly useful here. I don't attack enough to make deathtouch very relevant, same for the +1/+1 counter. Flying hate is too small, lifegain is nice but not worth including a card for and also small, green and black already have fantastic recursion. I like this card, but I don't like it in this deck.
Burnished Hart - Way too slow for this deck. There are much better ways to ramp.
Colossus of Akros - Amusing but unnecessary. It doesn't really support any of the things this deck wants to do, and I'd rather use Sisters if I have that much mana without any other plans for it.
Commune with the Gods - Not awful, but inferior to tutors and straight card draw.
Disciple of Phenax - Same as Overlord. The effect isn't really good enough unless you can get this guy in and out of play repeatedly.
Erebos, God of the Dead - Not terrible, but kind of expensive and very black heavy. This deck does run into life trouble from time to time, and he wouldn't help that at all. Worth a shot, but I'm skeptical.
Fade into Antiquity - Exiling removal is always nice. I think I prefer the flexibility of my current pieces, but this isn't a bad one.
Grey Merchant of Asphodel - Same boat as the other black devotion dudes. I like the card a lot, this deck does not have the support for it.
Hero's Downfall - Solid removal. Less flexible than some of the other options, but still good. I'm unlikely to play it, because I can already answer walkers and there are more efficient options for creatures.
Hythonia the Cruel - Solid if you're playing gorgon tribal, expensive otherwise. Still kind of fun, just because of having a gorgon general. I might give her a shot out of courtesy.
Karametra's Acolyte - It would have been a shoo-in as an elf, I don't really want it as a human. It's pricey and probably overkill by the time it's really worth the cost.
Mistcutter Hydra - If you're really having trouble with blue decks, this is solid. Skip it otherwise.
Nighthowler - Reverse Bonehoard. Nice to make one creature a threat, but I normally want to be swarming or going off for a win.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Solid, but it might be overkill. This entire deck is kind of a shrine to overkill, so it could fit anyways.
Nylea's Disciple - Even though I occasionally run into life trouble, there are better ways to counteract that. Black steals it from opponents, for example.
Nylea, God of the Hunt - Doesn't do enough. She'd essentially be used for her pump, and it's not very cost effective. I would rather just add another tutor for Kamahl, Fist of Krosa or Ezuri, Renegade Leader.
Pharika's Mender - Not terrible, but outclassed by more general green recursion and black reanimation.
Polukranos, World Eater - Too expensive for what you get. If I want to go all in on a big threat that doubles as creature removal, I already have my general.
Read the Bones - Good low cost card draw. It doesn't smooth things out quite as well as I'd like at 3 cmc, but I could see it working out well.
Reaper of the Wilds - Generally powerful card, not exactly abusable here. It's going to pick up a lot of value just by sitting on the board though.
Rescue from the Underworld - Better in decks with more etb effects. It's just pricey reanimation otherwise.
Sylvan Caryatid - Not an elf.
Whip of Erebos - Exiling creatures is typically not worth it here, nor is reanimating some little mana dork. Lifelink is not a good enough reason to include this.
Witches' Eye - I would rather just draw cards, and most of my creatures are more involved in tapping for mana than tapping to scry.
Comm 2013:
Baleful Force - Too expensive. Not particular synergy with the deck, either.
Bane of Progress - This is just stupid. Very powerful, almost certainly worth running.
Surveyor's Scope - Ahahahahahaha
All the other stuff - Doesn't do much for me. I'm happy to take another look at things if I'm missing something good.
All told, there's not a lot for this deck in the current crop of products. Nothing that I'm dying to get into the deck, barring maybe Bane of Progress.
thanks a lot Weebo for your thoughts on all the newly released cards (and of course your awesome work on your primer), it's useful as always.
I think I'll try to add a bit of "Gorgon" flavor in my current list because I find it refreshing in the Commander World.
For now, I see Vraska the Unseen and Hythonia the Cruel which seem perfect.
Do you think Reaper of the Wilds is still good enough to be included too ?
Keepsake Gorgon and Pharika's Mender seem both too slow/weak for the list, and there isn't enough counters for Korozda Gorgon...
Any other Gorgons/suggestions that I may have missed ?
Thanks again !
Visara the Dreadful comes to mind. There's also Xathrid Gorgon out of the core set, which is great for flavor. I have no idea how that one actually plays.
Keeping in mind I that I haven't actually played with Reaper of the Wilds yet, I think she's solid. She's a cost-effective body, protects herself from spot removal, kills things bigger than she is, and the scry ability is going to pick up value from all over the board. Even without any kind of abuse on your part, creatures are going to die in multiplayer games, and she turns all of that into advantage for you. I don't think she's going to single-handedly win you games, but shes going to smooth out your draws and help you find the cards that will do that. I'd try her if you've got her. Let me know if you do!
Xathrid Gorgon + Bane of progress = progress
For a good reference as to why, look at trinisphere from it's Darksteel printing:
WBRKaalia of the Vast - Borzhov Legion (Batallion-inspired Kaalia)WBR
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
BGSisters of Stone Death - My list - Inspired ByBG
UBRThraximundarUBR
RAshling the PilgrimR
UGThe FlashUG
EDH:
GDosan ControlG
GGeneral ShermanG
UWGDerevi's School of MagicUWG
The ramp in here is great for mono-G too. Elves are pretty nuts for fast mana.
Pharika was hugely disappointing for this deck. I wasn't expecting a perfect fit, but she's pretty much unusable in here. I'll talk more about other stuff in the set when we have a full spoiler, but I wanted to express my disappointment with her.
the full spoiler has now been posted on the mother site.
Unfortunately, it seems there isn't much for us in it, not to say nothing.
I'll still wait for your full review Weebo.
For my personal list, there are even no Gorgons in it !
There are some "Gorgon flavour" cards, but they are really bad...
Really disappointing, I agree
Black
Agent of Erebos - GY hate is an essential thing to include in this format, and this is the first time black has gotten it as a creature etb effect. There are already lots of other options, but if you don't have Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch, this can be a nice supplement to the Bojuka Bog I know you're already running. Better with more enchantments, but I'm not sure how often that would come up here.
Font of Return - I never really mind bringing dudes back to hand in this deck, because most of the power creatures that die cost 2-3 mana. This is still a less effective way of doing that than Phyrexian Reclamation and not as nice without some way to reuse it, but I could see it being alright. Spending one card to get three is perfectly defensible and there's probably and over-complicated way to go infinite with a couple big mana elves, a sac outlet, a haste source, and Eternal Witness. More complicated than it needs to be, but possible.
King Macar, the Gold-Cursed/other inspired guys - I'm only mentioning them because of the copious amounts of ways to untap creatures I run. Lacking an easy, non-combat way to tap them in the first place likely takes them out of contention, but there are a few ways to do it if you feel so inclined.
Silence the Believers - Multi-target exile. This is pretty solid if you need more spot removal, and elves are well suited to making the large amounts of mana it would take. I think there are better removal options, but a lot of them are a little bit older and less likely to be in trade binders.
Worst Fears - Just play Mindslaver if you want to do this.
Green
Hydra Broodmaster - Not a terrible use for a bunch of mana, and you can find it with creature tutors. I think black offers more ways to take someone out with lots of mana and elves already swarm well. This is a more easily tutored Gelatinous Genesis, which is a very nice haymaker later in the game.
Nessian Game Warden - Mostly just worse than a tutor, and there are a lot of those. Cheap and easy to grab, though.
Setessan Tactics - Worse than black's removal. The only real reason to consider this is using it in conjunction with untapping to remove multiple creatures and that's mostly just cute.
Multicolored
Nyx Weaver - My deck isn't GY focused enough to make good use of this, and the Regrowth is very much a single shot with the exile cost.
Pharika, God of Affliction - Not for this deck. I think she has a place in the format as GY hate out of the command zone, but there are cheaper hate cards that don't give away deathtouching chumps. She's a thematic inclusion if you're running a bunch of gorgons and Sisters' exile gets around her snakes, but that's it for good things I can say about her here.
Land/Colorless
Mana Confluence - I typically don't have color fixing issues and this doesn't add to basic counts, so this isn't even on the radar.
Temple of Malady - CiPT is a more significant drawback than the scrying is an upside. Cheaper fixing than the older lands, but I'd expect to cut it with a stronger manabase.
Chariot of Victory - Not bad at all. Haste for one mana is nice with bigger mana elves, trample is nice for Sisters beats. I'm not sure that I have anything I would cut for this, but it's probably the most likely to make an appearance in my list.