Went 2-0 last night with my rebel build. Mostly based off your initial build isbp. Thanks for the great list and the thoughtful updates and discussion
I have mostly gone to the equipment build because of the token hate that I can and have to run of more recent. I played a game two weeks ago (missed last week) and it went really well against a voltron boros deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Blessed Alliance the untap function as well as the attacker sacrifice can be ok. The problem is the attack sacrifice effect is kind of weak here where we are so strong vs a few attackers. In the end I dont think its worth it.
Bruna, the Fading Light of the two meld creatures here, I like Bruna more. Even then though, I dont feel that there are that many profitable rez targets for her and while she gives a much better creature for combat she costs a lot and is slow with a rez ability that is mostly not really needed in this deck.
Collective Effort the effect is ok, the problem is that its a sorcery and the effect is still only kind of ok. If this was an instant, I think I could get behind it but as a sorcery it feels like its not that powerful for this format.
Gisela, the Broken Blade I do like the meld version here but realistically I just dont feel that the individual cards add up enough to justify this card.
Give No Ground ok, this card is not great but I enjoy its mechanics. It got me thinking though about what you could do with this sort of effect and I realized that Defiant Vanguard + this is a 7 mana wrath all non flying creatures sort of an effect. Then I got to thinking to myself, I wonder if there are any other versions of this effect but without that +2/+6 that brings up its cost and I did a little search and I found Blaze of Glory and Valor Made Real. Honestly, I had never considered these effects before but I really like the idea of killing all attackers coming at me while also blocking them all. The downside is obviously that if they are super powered + trample I am totally screwed but you can also use Blaze of Glory on an opponent to force them to block an attack and kill something in that way as well. So, I guess I have to thank this new card as it got me interested in two other cards that already existed but had bypassed my radar. I am definitely getting myself a copy of each of these.
Repel the Abominable I do like cool little fogs that have slight twists to them. Its nothing to write home about but I just enjoy these sort of things. Overall its probably a bit weak considering "human" is not the tribal focus here but we have plenty of humans in here. Overall, I would still probably suggest Dawn Charm over this but I just think its a fun little card.
Selfless Spirit I like that its a cheap flyer who has a strong sacrifice effect. Even then though, I dont see anything that the creature itself offers and mass indestructibility can be very finicky to be honest. I would rather run something like Ghostway in a deck where I tend to keep up mana anyways. I do however think that this is a very cool addition to white and I could see myself playing this in an Ephara, God of the Polis deck where it would draw me a card cheaply while also offering its great versatility. The strong part about this is that its a creature so if you want to toolbox / tutor creatures or recur creatures this gets stronger. Being that we dont really abuse creatures through tutor (non rebel) or reanimation here I dont see synergy with this deck. I think its a cool new add but I dont think it goes here. To point it out, we already have this effect currently on Dauntless Escort. This version though costs one less mana and is more accessible to the color pie being only a single color. Overall though, Dauntless Escort does not see much play so my overall expectations of this card while I think its cool is that it probably in the long run will not see that much play considering the existing version which costs similar mana does not. It might be a fun niche card though or belong in a few decks given the lessening of the color intensity of it.
Sigarda's Aid I think this is an interesting card but honestly its a question of how much you value flash as well as the auto equip. Its probably strongest when flashing effects like Lightning Greaves / Darksteel Plate / Gift of Immortality. Overall, I think its a cool effect but it takes up a card draw. I think it could have some place potentially in an enchantress style of deck where it could potentially draw you a card / trigger consolation effects or be included in a mass resurrect to play kind of a thing. I like the effect but I find it a little lacking for my own likes.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar honestly, its hard to play mono white and play hatebear effects. This sort of effect will stall opponents especially if played early on but I cant help but think that the effect falls off as time goes on and higher land counts are amassed. It still hates on haste creatures and blockers but overall I feel that this sort of effect while very cool, is something that is better in faster games of magic especially in 1v1 games where you might play tempo or aggro style of tactics.
Thalia's Lancers tutors are hard to come by in white. Tutors for creatures are essentially all colorless effects until now. This can fetch up an Elesh Norn or an Eldrazi assuming you run either of them. It comes down to how often you feel that one of the legendary creatures you might run is relevant. I think this is a respectable add to white and I hope they perhaps replicate this effect again going forward. Just for flavor reasons I will point out that this effect was originally kind of a green effect so I am very curious if they are deciding to give this sort of effect to white more in the future or if this was some sort of strange abnormality that comes from all the the eldrazi that have been happening. One interesting differentiation is that this fetches any legendary permanent where Time of Need was creature only so this is actually a more powerful effect that can fetch up legendary lands / artifacts / enchantments as well.
Emrakul, the Promised End its a decent control effect. It doesn't kill someone's turn in all but you do get to throw away a lot of their stuff. Mindslaver effects are kind of challenging in commander because of multiple opponents and this one looks hard to abuse but it comes with a nice body. I think its an alright consideration but I dont see anything that directly makes me think it has any sort of increased synergy with this deck.
Geier Reach Sanitarium I am normally very against giving all players a loot effect but keep this in mind, rebels drawn to hand are really bad and getting them to grave / back into deck tends to be a good move. It also works with Land Tax to turn basic lands into draw. It functions a little like Bazaar of Baghdad (which I use) but the downside is that its a little mana inefficient to use and you potentially aid your opponents with it. It can however be activated at instant speed so if you dont have anything else to do you can filter cards in hand. I think its stronger here than I would say it would be in a lot of commander decks. Its probably stronger here than Mikokoro, Center of the Sea would be because we have things that are easy to throw away from hand. I think this is stronger in builds that push ramp harder. I definitely think I would like it more in my traditional token swarm build where I tend to need to dig to a big token spawn effect.
In addition to these two cards, I am also very much interested in testing Blaze of Glory and Valor Made Real as these effects had kind of escaped my notice previously but given that they can be used with Defiant Vanguard for a very very strong burst defense effect I think they may be worth considering as well. Blaze of Glory can also catch opponents off guard as I can force them to block with a commander or utility creature they would otherwise not block with. I am actually quite happy that they made Give No Ground as it gave me reason to investigate these effects.
Moving forward, I will see what I can do about testing all 4 of these cards. Please feel free to give input on these new cards and or considerations.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I just wanted to give an update of where I am with my equipment based rebel build. I have a few changes coming through so I figured I would give my current list as well as highlight a few changes I have made thus far. Because my OP uses such a different tactic from this new list I am trying to maintain my current list in new comments more than I am on the OP for now. My goal is to merge the OP to have both a token approach build as well as an equipment based build in the long run.
I also tend to defend myself a lot as a player as I get a lot of pot shots taken at me so my own list tends to reflect a very very defensive style of play where I try to give players reasons not to attack me as well as having appropriate answers for a variety of problems.
Magus of the Tabernacle -> Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite When I first assembled this list I questioned if I I wanted the Magus or Elesh Norn. I ended up cutting the magus to make room for elesh in the list.
New Changes:
Emeria Shepherd -> Blaze of Glory when it comes to recovery in this deck, the equipment are good but if they get removed its hardly the end of the world. I felt that a 7 mana angel that was situational based on needing more land drops wasnt quite what I needed in here in part because of how late it was to drop. Blaze of Glory is a new effect for this deck but what I like about it is that I can use it with Defiant Vanguard as a 4 mana rebel tutor + 1 card wrath all non flying attackers. It not only lets me block big token swarms but it also lets me kill them. I also like that this effect can be used to force my opponents to block something they otherwise probably would not do.
Umezawa's Jitte -> Valor Made Real I just never found myself tutoring or really wanting the Jitte here. It does give me access to removal but it just doesnt do the same without a voltron commander. The +/+ pump seems to fall off leaving just one mode that seems to be all that functional. Valor Made Real gives me a second copy of Blaze of Glory to combine with Defiant Vanguard and blow out an attacking force. I can also use it with a flying creature as a pinch case fog against a flying horde.
Stonehewer Giant -> Steel Hellkite they are both sort of slow value generators but the flip side is that I felt that an answer for any problem was better than a tutor for equipment given that I already have several good equipment tutors in here. I had considered adding another spot removal like a Disenchant effect or Oblation but I think for now I will try my luck with the dragon given it can be a bit versatile especially when combined with Whipcorder or Bound in Silence to support it getting through.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite -> Thalia's Lancers honestly I just feel like I have a lot of answers for token swarms and I would rather keep them to instant speed or something I can protect a bit better. Chrovax does not turn on me as badly if stolen and is harder to steal or answer in play which is why I am keeping him in for now. The lancers can still get me a Tabernacle if I want but I feel like it adds a little more diversity to my deck.
Kozilek, the Great Distortion -> Stonecloaker Kozilek seems interesting to me still but I needed to cut some of the fat or add more ramp. For now I saw more merrit in cutting some of the big chunky drops rather than dropping in a bunch of ramp. I wanted to bring my grave hate game back up a little as well.
Hallowed Moonlight -> Relic of Progenitus just shifting my grave hate a little. I can tuck rebels if I need to use relic and in a lot of cases I am not too worried about putting them back in my deck.
Overall, I am adding a bit more control to my list with these changes as well as just kind of moving where my control is. I will probably need to make more adjustments as this is a lot of cards to change in one time. I also want to find room for Geier Reach Sanitarium but I will be honest that I think my IRL landbase and my digital one are a little different so I will need to sit down and do that sometime.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Still my favorite deck to play. I'm actually excited to get my hands on a Thalia, Heretic Cathar. The greatest strength of this deck is its ability to give mono white tempo. I've found that including effects that slow the game down for all players to be very helpful, because more often then not I'm just trying to get more rebels into play and it doesn't change my game while greatly affecting others. Eidolon of Rhetoric, Hushwing Gryff, Loxodon Gatekeeper, Torpor Orb, Aura of Silence, Aven Mindcensor, and Rule of Law all serve the same purpose and I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar fits right in.
Still my favorite deck to play. I'm actually excited to get my hands on a Thalia, Heretic Cathar. The greatest strength of this deck is its ability to give mono white tempo. I've found that including effects that slow the game down for all players to be very helpful, because more often then not I'm just trying to get more rebels into play and it doesn't change my game while greatly affecting others. Eidolon of Rhetoric, Hushwing Gryff, Loxodon Gatekeeper, Torpor Orb, Aura of Silence, Aven Mindcensor, and Rule of Law all serve the same purpose and I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar fits right in.
My concern with hatebears in general is that they seem to be hit or miss in how relevant they are given you opponents. I think Torpor Orb is probably one of the easier ones to play around while being impactful with it but even then it depends on the meta as it can be easy for an entire meta to shift to ignore torpor orb if they are exposed to it enough. I do like hatebears but I like them more when you can splice in a little more draw. The new Thalia is cool but I worry that she has less effect as a game goes on and for her to be good I really want to be curving into her early.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Of all the places to put The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, a mono-white Rebels deck is one of the last places I'd expect to find it. I'm really intrigued as to why you're running this. Is it just for token swarms?
Of all the places to put The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, a mono-white Rebels deck is one of the last places I'd expect to find it. I'm really intrigued as to why you're running this. Is it just for token swarms?
Also, Y U CUT JITTE?!
Tokens are one of the biggest problems I had had with my OP list rebel list. When it came to opposing token decks I would just roll over and die probably 80% of the time to an opposing token deck. When I went to rebuild for equipment I decided that I wanted to cut into my own token strategy and instead hate on token strategies.
Umezawa's Jitte - I found it a bit lacking when the only mode I was interested in was the -/- to creatures. The +/+ and lifegain were really just kind of things I never wanted to do. I just find it more productive when I run this card in a voltron deck where the +/+ is something I actually want to do.
I had another interesting game last night. Somehow we sat down and all unknowingly played mono white against each other.
GAME REPORT:
3 player FFA. Opponents are Celestial Kirin (an interesting spirit wrath happy deck) and Kemba, Kha Regent. Kirin wins the roll so I am last.
In the opening of the game I end up dropping my commander on curve and getting to 4 mana where I get stuck temporarily. I end up tutoring for a 2 mana rebel search and then he goes to blow up 3 costs. I tutor the 1 cost rebel search as well in response just to somewhat of stagger my rebels. I manage to hit 5 mana and I drop Thalia's Lancers in and fetch up Nykthos with it.
I think I replay lin Sivvi the next turn after he blows her up. I think the Kemba player killed Kirin's commander so Kirin moves to an actual Wrath of God. I play a Steel Hellkite on a mostly empty board. Kirin drops a Angel of Flight Alabaster into play. Kemba plays an Intrepid Hero with a Mystifying Maze with mana up for it. I swing at Kirin who for some really odd reason blocks my Helkite. I cant recall exactly what I did here but it might have been recast my commander.
Kemba gets a few more cat tokens in play and I drop a Bound in Silence on his commander to kind of split him between attacking with equipment or paying to flip flop them. When he gets up to like 4 tokens I drop a Tabernacle.
Kirin ended up paying for the Karmic echo and later drops a Cloudstone Curio and flickers the Karmic in and out every turn. Kemba uses his Intrepid Hero to keep the Angel of Flight Alabaster out of play. We go on for several turns of Kirin just kind of jerking off with his Curio + Karmic combo. Eventually Kemba forces him to hit the 3 mana stuff for some reason which kills the Curio. I get a few more rebels in play with my commander and then end up walking into a Final Judgment from Kirin.
I am sitting in hand with mostly defensive wraths at this point so I kind of sit back behind my 2x maze effects and let Kemba do some work at this point. Kemba ends up bringing Kirin down with just some tokens and an angel eventually. Right about when Kirin is dying my Emeria, the Sky Ruin goes active and I start rezing Steel Hellkite and Endbringer (I cant remember how endbringer died but it was very uneventful when it did). Kemba swings at me with all of his creatures and I drop a Angel of the Dire Hour blowing out his attack. He then drops a Descend upon the Sinful on me and then a Relic of Progenitus that he then uses.
I at this point cast my commander at 11 mana I think it was. I pass back to him with a Tower of the Magistrate up which I use to keep him off of making additional angel tokens with his Moonsilver Spear. I think he plays Kemba and or another equipment. I pass turn with my mana up. He moves his equipment around between his angel and Kemba. I drop the spear off when he moves to attack using the Tower of the Magistrate. He decides not to attack given my commander + mazes. I tutor for Lawbringer at his end step. On my turn I drop a Distorting Lens and spin up the removal cannon. I mimic his last turn and protection the spear off when he moves to attacks and then I remove Kemba. I then tutor up Lightbringer and rez the Lawbringer on my turn. He scoops.
I apologize if my report jumps a little here and there and or misses out on things. I tried to tell the highlights as by the end of the game, I believe the last time Kirin was cast was for 12 or 14 mana. It was a very long and grueling game of answers.
Overall, the game was good. My one complaint was the annoyance of creatures who generate value over time. I did kind of screw up though as in an early attack on me I threw away my Basilisk Collar which I should have held onto.
Thanks for your review on Eldrich moon in Sivvi. I'm most hyped on blessed alliance. It's untap and sac attacker seems fun and interactive. It can be a blow out on a combat. Probably best used when someone else is being attacked to help the defending player.
I like your thoughts on blaze of glory and vanguard but it just seems very situational at best. I,guess it depends how often you play against tokens.
Collective effort seems ok. Not quite sure on it yet. Likely replace my aura of silence.
As noted above, we each play different styles so it'll be neat how each design plays out. I'm very much focused on specific interaction (swords, etc...).
I play online so time is occasionally an issue cause you can't tap out ( to auto yield). How do you on handle time management in real life as you are often searching end of turn?
Side note, I once got asked if my list was yours. You are known as the Lin sivvi go to player.
Thanks for your review on Eldrich moon in Sivvi. I'm most hyped on blessed alliance. It's untap and sac attacker seems fun and interactive. It can be a blow out on a combat. Probably best used when someone else is being attacked to help the defending player.
I like your thoughts on blaze of glory and vanguard but it just seems very situational at best. I,guess it depends how often you play against tokens.
Collective effort seems ok. Not quite sure on it yet. Likely replace my aura of silence.
As noted above, we each play different styles so it'll be neat how each design plays out. I'm very much focused on specific interaction (swords, etc...).
I play online so time is occasionally an issue cause you can't tap out ( to auto yield). How do you on handle time management in real life as you are often searching end of turn?
Side note, I once got asked if my list was yours. You are known as the Lin sivvi go to player.
Blessed Alliance seems interesting from the standpoint that the untap part of it could be fun with rebels but the amount of mana you would need to take advantage of that seems high. When looking at it from the perspective of the attacker sacrifice I think Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile / Oblation are things I would all consider probably before it. I also think that Wing Shards probably beats this effect for the most part if you want the attacker sacrifice effect. To be honest though, we have so many combat tricks already for single attackers I would be very hesitant to do any sort of attacker sacrifice effect in a deck like this. I think its an interesting effect but I also dont think its an effect that rebels overly need.
Blaze of Glory - for now I dont have a lot to add one way or the other. What I do know is that this deck defends itself very well against single big attackers (eldrazi and the such) so what I am more interested in is the ability to not just burst die. If someone does 30 / 40 of my life in damage in a turn I will just tutor for Children of Korlis. People know that in my meta you generally have to swarm kill me or just continue to hit me for solid numbers turn after turn. Blaze of Glory is my answer to that problem right now as are things such as Comeuppance and Angel of the Dire Hour. I honestly do need to test a lot more before I can really give good feedback on how these effects might be working for me as they tend to be an effect for when someone else is running away with the game however traditional wraths give me some problem in setting back up so I do like the idea of more of these one sided effects.
Collective effort - I really like the effect but the fact that its a sorcery makes it far less good. Honestly if it was an instant I would probably put it in the list. I am not very keen on selective creature + enchantment removal at sorcery speed is why I am mostly passing on this. If it was an instant, I think it might be justifiable to test but I dont like this sort of effect at sorcery speed.
End of Turn Searching - I wait for my opponent to declare their turn end and I state that I have a priority at their end step I want. Its harder if you are playing on something like trice but you probably want to have typed.... "End of Your Turn" and press enter right after they try to pass to you. You really dont want to be doing this before that or you give up a lot of the effect that comes from waiting.
Generally speaking, MTGS is kind of one of the bigger hubs when it comes to commander primers. Its not unheard of to assume that a list might be at least loosely based on a primer or that a user may have viewed and seen the options of a deck at the location of the primer. I was also known for my Jenara primer who had several thousand comments that crossed over something like 4 years of play. I wonder if one day I pull out my list and someone identifies me from my alters. I dont travel enough normally speaking for that to happen though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Reveille Squad: This rebel seems too good not to run. If you're attacked, you get to search twice, tap down two creatures with Whipcorder and so on. It's not just "surprise vigilance", though a fetchable 3/3 for 4 giving vigilance to all isn't too shabby by itself IMO.
Darksteel Mutation: I think this might be the best board locking aura in EDH. It's not as versatile as Faith's Fetters, but I think it's much better than even Lignify and Prison Term. You can still attack the player you use it on and he can't get out just by blocking and killing as with Lignify - it also doesn't fall off from wraths. The player really must have a disenchant effect or a sac outlet or he is screwed. It's like a retroactive Nevermore against commanders. And it's tutorable with the aura tutors that are pretty much all that's available for tutoring in mono-white 2DH.
Well of Lost Dreams: Gentlemen, this is 1 mana per card after a humble downpayment of 4. Just a single strike with Changeling Hero, or one life cycle of Aven Riftwatcher, and you get 4 cards from it. That alone would make the 4+4 mana investment worth it and much better than Tower of Fortunes, but it will often give you much more. I'd definitely take this over Endbringer and Staff of Nin too. IMO, only Mentor of the Meek and the best equipment can compete with it.
Survival Cache: Do you often have more life than at least one opponent? Then this is a better divination in white. What do you think?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
How have the cards for rebels you have viewed been turning out for you?
I found collective effort bad.
Blessed alliance is a card that stays in your hand. However, when it could be used it did a lot for 2-4 mana.
I added canyons to my list. Flash creatures are fun. Though still no replacement for vendilkon orrery (card makes for insane plays). Instant austere command. Flash in academy rector, humility, etc... The best card in my deck for blowout plays.
Reveille Squad: This rebel seems too good not to run. If you're attacked, you get to search twice, tap down two creatures with Whipcorder and so on. It's not just "surprise vigilance", though a fetchable 3/3 for 4 giving vigilance to all isn't too shabby by itself IMO.
Darksteel Mutation: I think this might be the best board locking aura in EDH. It's not as versatile as Faith's Fetters, but I think it's much better than even Lignify and Prison Term. You can still attack the player you use it on and he can't get out just by blocking and killing as with Lignify - it also doesn't fall off from wraths. The player really must have a disenchant effect or a sac outlet or he is screwed. It's like a retroactive Nevermore against commanders. And it's tutorable with the aura tutors that are pretty much all that's available for tutoring in mono-white 2DH.
Well of Lost Dreams: Gentlemen, this is 1 mana per card after a humble downpayment of 4. Just a single strike with Changeling Hero, or one life cycle of Aven Riftwatcher, and you get 4 cards from it. That alone would make the 4+4 mana investment worth it and much better than Tower of Fortunes, but it will often give you much more. I'd definitely take this over Endbringer and Staff of Nin too. IMO, only Mentor of the Meek and the best equipment can compete with it.
Survival Cache: Do you often have more life than at least one opponent? Then this is a better divination in white. What do you think?
Thanks, its interesting to hear from someone who regularly plays 2HG. My own group occasionally does 6 player 3 team 2HG which is also fun to try sometimes as it gives the FFA feel of commander still while also being simplified on turn duration over most other 6 player options I have seen.
Reveille Squad - so the problem is that in most cases I could just get a second tutoring rebel. This guy is an extra body on the field but also it turns into more setup time as well as more losses when the wraths do come. I generally only want one or two things a turn and we already have a lot of means of deterring things from attacking us. Its a little different that you are talking about 2HG because in a lot of ways its more like a heads up sort of gameplan. Its hard to really compare some of the same strategy because part of how I play this deck is to pillowfort but pillowforting works a lot less when you are the only opponents. In general, I dont have a lot of situations where someone attacks me and the difference between one and two rebels would matter much. Its possible that the psudo vigilance could matter more with the equipment build having a decent blocker as well. I just wish that the creature body mattered more I guess.
Darksteel Mutation - I think it matters a little bit as to what commanders you have problems with. I like this as an idea against like static ability commanders. In general though I dont like how it protects them from wraths though. It depends on what kind of sweepers you see in your own meta but I see a lot of effects that destroy all non land effects it seems like which feel super bad when you push someone's commander through with this.
Well of Lost Dreams - I would feel better about this if I had more lifegain on rebels. Most of the lifegain in here come from situational cards. If you give up your Changeling Hero then it suddenly is not an option if you get swept. Children of Korlis will probably never be an option with the well as most people will know about that trick. So, that leaves us with kind of less optimal rebels with lifegain on them. If we had a decent rebel option with sustainable lifegain I would probably jump on it but it just seems like a lot of work with any of the options. I am not too keen on blowing my Champion to try to draw cards
Survival Cache - it seems fun. I like the card. This deck is defensive to pull it off most of the time.
How have the cards for rebels you have viewed been turning out for you?
I found collective effort bad.
Blessed alliance is a card that stays in your hand. However, when it could be used it did a lot for 2-4 mana.
I added canyons to my list. Flash creatures are fun. Though still no replacement for vendilkon orrery (card makes for insane plays). Instant austere command. Flash in academy rector, humility, etc... The best card in my deck for blowout plays.
My own testing - I played a game last week and it was mostly ok but I was going up against a 5 color planeswalker deck which was very trying. I kept a lot of the walkers in check and in return a Riku player managed to play a Master of Waves with 2x copies of it just swarming the game with tokens. I tried dropping an Elesh Norn and age a Pact of Negation that was for the game essentially. I didn't see any of the new cards in that game last week.
Collective Effort - I want to like it but sorcery speed spot removal is just bad. Its a cool combination of effects but its not good enough.
Winding Canyons - its occasionally useful. I do love Vedalken Orrery but it draws so much hate in my meta I rarely expect it to last a turn anymore. Winding Canyons seems to escape notice a lot better from what I have seen in part because its not as good but also because its a bit more narrow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
i play array online. People never seem to give it the credit it deserves. I cast it one game, and a player said no big deal. He proceed to wipe my board and attack me for lethal. In the end he ran into an instant humility plus batterskull. One way I found to protect it is to play "better" artifacts and enchantments that require destroying first. Rebels would be a fun 2hg deck to use.
Creature (18)
1x Academy Rector
1x Children of Korlis
1x Defiant Falcon
1x Defiant Vanguard
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Emeria Shepherd
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Lawbringer
1x Lightbringer
1x Mentor of the Meek
1x Mirror Entity
1x Ramosian Sergeant
1x Reveillark
1x Reveille Squad
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Whipcorder
Instant (12)
1x Argivian Find
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Lapse of Certainty
1x Mana Tithe
1x Oblation
1x Path to Exile
1x Return to Dust
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tithe
1x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Warping Wail
Land (37)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arcane Lighthouse
1x Buried Ruin
1x Desert
1x Emeria, The Sky Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Homeward Path
1x Kjeldoran Outpost
1x Kor Haven
1x Marsh Flats
1x Myriad Landscape
20x Plains
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of the False God
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Winding Canyons
1x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (8)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Bound in Silence
1x Grasp of Fate
1x Humility
1x Land Tax
1x Parallax Wave
1x Rest in Peace
1x Seal of Cleansing
Planeswalker (2)
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Gideon Jura
Commander
Artifact (17)
1x Batterskull
1x Citanul Flute
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Helm of Possession
1x Mana Crypt
1x Marble Diamond
1x Mind Stone
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of the Animist
1x Thought Vessel
1x Trading Post
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Vedalken Orrery
I have been a bit slow to do my set review for Conspiracy so I apologize. I have been running into a new Anafenza, the Foremost deck in my meta which has been causing me to play this deck a little less as the passive commander graveyard hate is very difficult to work around with rebels. I want to get more testing in and try to get the OP updated with my findings when I get enough test data to report on things reliably. Until then I have been trying to leave the OP alone until I can come to some sort of a conclusion as its possible that something between the two strategies might end up being where I go with things. I am finding a lot of new and cool cards with this new build and so I enjoy the testing so far.
CONSPIRACY 2 SET REVIEW:
MONARCH - At the beginning of your end step, draw a card. Whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, its controller becomes the monarch. lets talk about this mechanic first before I delve into card analysis because I feel like I would otherwise be repeating myself. So this mechanic rewards you for playing defensive and acts as a phyrexian arena. We also have some good evasive creatures which can retake the monarch as needed. This is potentially a good effect but keep in mind it also paints a target on your face which means you will possibly have to fort harder than you otherwise would have to. It is continuous card draw though that can not be spot removed so its actually somewhat good against attrition or control style of decks because unlike a Phyrexian Arena, once this ball gets rolling it cant be taken away. In the same fashion, you will be drawing attention and heat from aggro decks so evasive attackers will be even more of a pain in the ass to you than they were before.
Custodi Soulcaller its interesting in the fact that it can rez 3 or less mana minions fairly decently which makes up a lot of the rebel package. The problem with this though is that it requires a specific setup to do it and it requires itself to be able to attack and not really die. I guess I would put it as some sort of like..... really bad Sun Titan that costs less. Its interesting but unfortunately its so situational and slow it kind of hurts. Its a cool design for an uncommon but I dont think it gets there.
Palace Jailer monarch is a powerful effect. This guy also temporarily makes something go away so its possible if you need like a big scarry attacker or evasive to go away it could be an answer as well as set up some card draw. I realllllly dont like Oblivion Ring effects especially when they are the new templating + on a creature but the fact that this also starts up the game of monarch is possibly worth considering.
Protector of the Crown this deck is already defensive and this can catch a big attack. The biggest problem for me is its cost to cast but it comes with monarch + it blocks things up a bit. I think I actually like it more in my original token build where I ran more big mana so you could potentially drop it and do something else yet in that turn without full committing to playing this. Its an interesting card and probably my favorite of the white monarch effects.
Recruiter of the Guard new imperial recruiter for white. What isn't to love about this? The one thing I will say though is to keep in mind what your potential targets are and how situational those cards or or which cards you see yourself normally searching for. I have the following targets in my current build: Serra Ascendant, Weathered Wayfarer, Stoneforge Mystic, Mentor of the Meek, Stonecloaker, and Solemn Simulacrum. I think it should be fairly good as I normally plan to play Lin Sivvi at 3 mana so it gives the option of turn 4 for a Serra Ascendant turn if I want. I think that tutoring for wayfarer also seems good especially in my build because I have some great utility lands in my list.
Sanctum Prelate I would say that it could be a wrath defense or something but honestly it seems sort of selective and specific for this format. If you are playing faster games with more combo and or control I could see it being possibly a little better as cutting off 1 or 2 mana things could be very strong there. Offhand, hitting for 2 or 3 is probably where I would go if I were to play it. At 2 you cut off a lot of counters and cyclonic rift if playing against blue. Against other decks you might try 3 to cut off just a lot of general good value cards as well as a few wraths. In the end, I think it will be a little too niche to really get away with in this format.
Guardian of the Gateless I more mention this because I think it has a cool bit of style. This card really really wanted to have flash but sadly did not get it. It reminds me a lot of a defensive Teeka's Dragon + Lure play (that really brings me back lol). I more just wanted to give this a really cool flavor shout out but overall its going to fall short. If they had gone and given it flash I would have loved to see what it would have done.
Throne of the High City realistically, it seems fairly decent here because you can invest the mana into it at end step so you are not tapping out to do the monarch effect and most of the monarch effects are a little underwhelming. This might be a good deck to try this which is surprising because there are not many decks I really felt that monarch might work in. This might be the most playable one for this playstyle.
So, the bottom line.... I guess I have to give Recruiter of the Guard as probably the most playable but thats to no real surprise as its probably the best card for this format from the entire set. Throne of the High City has my interest currently as I think it has some good potential and I guess finally Protector of the Crown is something I will at least think about. That is my top three currently. My own thoughts on this is that I will probably try to make room for Recruiter of the Guard and Throne of the High City. Protector of the Crown I keep going back and forth with but its something that could be a possibility yet.
i play array online. People never seem to give it the credit it deserves. I cast it one game, and a player said no big deal. He proceed to wipe my board and attack me for lethal. In the end he ran into an instant humility plus batterskull. One way I found to protect it is to play "better" artifacts and enchantments that require destroying first. Rebels would be a fun 2hg deck to use.
I have one more card in the deck. I'm just sure at this moment what that card it. Its designed for an unknown metagame as I play online.
Sorry for the delayed response. I remember seeing your post but I totally blanked on responding. In general my experience with online commander is that the social aspects of it get played down a lot assuming there is much of any of it. Its unfortunate as thats one of the biggest elements of commander I like about playing it IRL. People tend to play on assumptions a lot more when going into unknown games which online plays into so when they see mono white they will generally downgrade their threat assessment of you. This is to your benefit but its also a pain in the ass because some people will just play 5c combo online and that is a lot harder for mono white to interact with.
Overall, your list looks good. It looks like you went with the light rebel approach (something I have gone on both sides of the coin of). It does look like you have added a lot of control to your list which is cool. I think a permanent light approach is cool to see considering online I suspect a lot of people dont target you heavily. I have had to make adjustments and defend myself a lot more often with my own list in a continuous meta.
I still feel like we got ripped off with no rebels being printed in set or the previous one. I mean you are fighting ot over throw a crown, that makes you rebels...
I still feel like we got ripped off with no rebels being printed in set or the previous one. I mean you are fighting ot over throw a crown, that makes you rebels...
I think its about every block or so I ask myself, why cant they do rebels again
Realistically, wizards seems to not like doing the tribal thing very often and when they do it they seem to like to go into a new direction with new tribes rather than come back to the ones that exist or stick to the ones that are like the main tribe or two each set.
I have also asked myself why they dont consider doing changeling again in one of these sets that does not get pushed into standard and modern because it would be a good way to do some generic fillers that encompass what the colors do. I would love to see a mythic white changeling flyer to be honest. Sadly, I keep just keeping my hopes up for some sort of combination of changelings or rebels returning but in the end there is a lot of things that can help us that is shy of seeing rebels again.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
a continuous meta vs. online is different. have you ever considered asking to put in some black cards (big game hunter and conspiracy). They are made for rebels (considering one is a rebel). But the ability to tutor any creature in your deck at instant speed seems like so much fun. Look forward to seeing how the white tutor works out. I found the problem with all the strong white cards, they just go better in other decks.
Hey I noticed you've been running Endbringer in your latest list, how has that been working out for you? My personal list doesn't run that many colorless sources so I'm worried about it's consistency, has that been a problem for you?
a continuous meta vs. online is different. have you ever considered asking to put in some black cards (big game hunter and conspiracy). They are made for rebels (considering one is a rebel). But the ability to tutor any creature in your deck at instant speed seems like so much fun. Look forward to seeing how the white tutor works out. I found the problem with all the strong white cards, they just go better in other decks.
If not for the color identity rule I would totally put in big game hunter. That is not a rule I intend to try to play around though.
Hey I noticed you've been running Endbringer in your latest list, how has that been working out for you? My personal list doesn't run that many colorless sources so I'm worried about it's consistency, has that been a problem for you?
Endbringer - I dont have a lot of results from it so far to be honest. Sometimes it just gets spot removed which has been a bit sad. I like what it does for me offhand but I have not had it hit play very often. As far as the landbase goes, its more budget to go heavier plains based but we have been getting some great utility lands in the last few sets so I would encourage you to try to slowly expand your nonbasic count. We really only need the two white to cast lin sivvi for the most part and other than that utility lands dont hurt much of at all (unless your opponents run Ruination / Back to Basics).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
That's a thing. I thought I would mention it here because of Children of Korlis you could repeatedly fire it or fire it and recover which would be kind of rough. It opens up the idea of a lifegain rebel deck more considering there is an infinite lifegain combo with rebels and or using lifegain with Felidar Sovereign / Test of Endurance.
I more just wanted to point this card out with some of the potential it has here than anything. I dont think I would go down such avenues considering how I feel like I would and do feel about other players doing such tactics to me. Its also a lot more towards the idea of combo and mono white really cant keep up with the arms race that might cause. Still, I thought it was interesting when combined with Children of Korlis.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
aetherflux reservoir seems like it would have a similar fate as phyrexian processor. You would need to invest 3-5 cards to make it work and can be easily disrupted, or put a quick target on you. I could imagine having difficulty making it consistent win con. If someone is running the life gain version of rebels I could see it useful. But as you mentioned, its not the type of card I want to play or have played against me.
So, sorry for how little I have been posting here. To be honest I had been going down the equipment path for a while trying that out but in the end I think the token direction is a better approach. My list in the OP had a lot of issues when facing another token deck though so I wanted to take a few of the newer cards I had been toying with and sort of bring the deck back to its roots. I think some additional token defense is needed from where the OP had been but I also think some of the equipment has been working out as Sword of the Animist and Mask of Memory have done very good work for me. Skullclamp also works better back in the token approach so I think I probably will still have some form of hybrid but focusing more on getting the token build there than trying to kill players.
While I am here I guess I can give a rundown on Commander 2016 (or is this commander 17.... I dont recall how they name these things)
Duelist's Heritage it could work well with equipment. The on damage dealing equipment like Mask of Memory or the traditional swords double procing could go a good ways towards generating value. I am going away from the equipment focus as I just drew too much hate being so defensive that most people would prioritize me before anyone else and just nobody would make attacks when I was in a decent position.
Entrapment Maneuver this is actually not so bad as its hard to just casually attack into rebels it tends to be with big flyers or eldrazi when I do take pokes. The real problem is that we normally handle these sort of threats fairly well too. The thought of forcing an edlrazi to sacrifice is a cool prospect but they are also not usually threats that actually pose a threat to us.
Selfless Squire a fog and a good one at that. This lets us shrug off a lethal blow and potentially turn it back on the attacker. Given that we have things like Whipchorder, we could potentially tap down any remaining defenders and turn back a lethal attack. Swarm tactics are hard to deal with but this is possibly one of the better answers to it as it not just fogs it but it potentially gives a wincon / kill method for the person who tried to do lethal to us.
Sublime Exhalation its a wrath effect but its Day of Judgment at best. I think its easy to say that they should have shaved one more mana off of this card as in a 4 player FFA it should probably have been 3 mana instead considering it just gets more expensive to cast as time goes on. Its less white intensive but that does not forgive the fact that its just gets worse over time and there really is not a format designed for more than 4 players right now. If you regularly play 5+ players I guess but that isn't a very good justification if you ask me for making this a little under powered.
I really want to go back and rebuild based on the original token tactics but with moving a few of the wraths to be more defensive measures at instant speed. Selfless Squire definitely has my interest and things like Comeuppance, Angel of the Dire Hour, and a few other instant speed tricks may help us keep overwhelming force from being how we go out. Hang in there and I will see if I cant get another list here soon. I need to do some maintenance to the OP but like I said I am trying to adjust and try new things to see what works for me best.
Smugglers copter has done decent work for me. if you want a two drop artifact for an early play it will suit your needs. Allows for Sivvi to be useful on turn 3. Filters away useless cards (ie, bringer's if not needed) and great with land tax. also really fun when you float terminus on top (because of scroll rack) and use it to block triggering terminus. Otherwise, nothing impressed me from commander 16. Duelist heritage seems like it can be fun to use on opponents creatures to change up combat math. But overall I do not feel it impressive enough. Look forward to seeing the token build.
Smugglers copter has done decent work for me. if you want a two drop artifact for an early play it will suit your needs. Allows for Sivvi to be useful on turn 3. Filters away useless cards (ie, bringer's if not needed) and great with land tax.
That does sound pretty interesting, actually. I mean, I'll have to wait until either Copter rotates or I get a fifth (because Staaaaaandard), but it's definitely on my watch list.
I have mostly gone to the equipment build because of the token hate that I can and have to run of more recent. I played a game two weeks ago (missed last week) and it went really well against a voltron boros deck.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Blessed Alliance the untap function as well as the attacker sacrifice can be ok. The problem is the attack sacrifice effect is kind of weak here where we are so strong vs a few attackers. In the end I dont think its worth it.
Bruna, the Fading Light of the two meld creatures here, I like Bruna more. Even then though, I dont feel that there are that many profitable rez targets for her and while she gives a much better creature for combat she costs a lot and is slow with a rez ability that is mostly not really needed in this deck.
Collective Effort the effect is ok, the problem is that its a sorcery and the effect is still only kind of ok. If this was an instant, I think I could get behind it but as a sorcery it feels like its not that powerful for this format.
Gisela, the Broken Blade I do like the meld version here but realistically I just dont feel that the individual cards add up enough to justify this card.
Give No Ground ok, this card is not great but I enjoy its mechanics. It got me thinking though about what you could do with this sort of effect and I realized that Defiant Vanguard + this is a 7 mana wrath all non flying creatures sort of an effect. Then I got to thinking to myself, I wonder if there are any other versions of this effect but without that +2/+6 that brings up its cost and I did a little search and I found Blaze of Glory and Valor Made Real. Honestly, I had never considered these effects before but I really like the idea of killing all attackers coming at me while also blocking them all. The downside is obviously that if they are super powered + trample I am totally screwed but you can also use Blaze of Glory on an opponent to force them to block an attack and kill something in that way as well. So, I guess I have to thank this new card as it got me interested in two other cards that already existed but had bypassed my radar. I am definitely getting myself a copy of each of these.
Repel the Abominable I do like cool little fogs that have slight twists to them. Its nothing to write home about but I just enjoy these sort of things. Overall its probably a bit weak considering "human" is not the tribal focus here but we have plenty of humans in here. Overall, I would still probably suggest Dawn Charm over this but I just think its a fun little card.
Selfless Spirit I like that its a cheap flyer who has a strong sacrifice effect. Even then though, I dont see anything that the creature itself offers and mass indestructibility can be very finicky to be honest. I would rather run something like Ghostway in a deck where I tend to keep up mana anyways. I do however think that this is a very cool addition to white and I could see myself playing this in an Ephara, God of the Polis deck where it would draw me a card cheaply while also offering its great versatility. The strong part about this is that its a creature so if you want to toolbox / tutor creatures or recur creatures this gets stronger. Being that we dont really abuse creatures through tutor (non rebel) or reanimation here I dont see synergy with this deck. I think its a cool new add but I dont think it goes here. To point it out, we already have this effect currently on Dauntless Escort. This version though costs one less mana and is more accessible to the color pie being only a single color. Overall though, Dauntless Escort does not see much play so my overall expectations of this card while I think its cool is that it probably in the long run will not see that much play considering the existing version which costs similar mana does not. It might be a fun niche card though or belong in a few decks given the lessening of the color intensity of it.
Sigarda's Aid I think this is an interesting card but honestly its a question of how much you value flash as well as the auto equip. Its probably strongest when flashing effects like Lightning Greaves / Darksteel Plate / Gift of Immortality. Overall, I think its a cool effect but it takes up a card draw. I think it could have some place potentially in an enchantress style of deck where it could potentially draw you a card / trigger consolation effects or be included in a mass resurrect to play kind of a thing. I like the effect but I find it a little lacking for my own likes.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar honestly, its hard to play mono white and play hatebear effects. This sort of effect will stall opponents especially if played early on but I cant help but think that the effect falls off as time goes on and higher land counts are amassed. It still hates on haste creatures and blockers but overall I feel that this sort of effect while very cool, is something that is better in faster games of magic especially in 1v1 games where you might play tempo or aggro style of tactics.
Thalia's Lancers tutors are hard to come by in white. Tutors for creatures are essentially all colorless effects until now. This can fetch up an Elesh Norn or an Eldrazi assuming you run either of them. It comes down to how often you feel that one of the legendary creatures you might run is relevant. I think this is a respectable add to white and I hope they perhaps replicate this effect again going forward. Just for flavor reasons I will point out that this effect was originally kind of a green effect so I am very curious if they are deciding to give this sort of effect to white more in the future or if this was some sort of strange abnormality that comes from all the the eldrazi that have been happening. One interesting differentiation is that this fetches any legendary permanent where Time of Need was creature only so this is actually a more powerful effect that can fetch up legendary lands / artifacts / enchantments as well.
Emrakul, the Promised End its a decent control effect. It doesn't kill someone's turn in all but you do get to throw away a lot of their stuff. Mindslaver effects are kind of challenging in commander because of multiple opponents and this one looks hard to abuse but it comes with a nice body. I think its an alright consideration but I dont see anything that directly makes me think it has any sort of increased synergy with this deck.
Geier Reach Sanitarium I am normally very against giving all players a loot effect but keep this in mind, rebels drawn to hand are really bad and getting them to grave / back into deck tends to be a good move. It also works with Land Tax to turn basic lands into draw. It functions a little like Bazaar of Baghdad (which I use) but the downside is that its a little mana inefficient to use and you potentially aid your opponents with it. It can however be activated at instant speed so if you dont have anything else to do you can filter cards in hand. I think its stronger here than I would say it would be in a lot of commander decks. Its probably stronger here than Mikokoro, Center of the Sea would be because we have things that are easy to throw away from hand. I think this is stronger in builds that push ramp harder. I definitely think I would like it more in my traditional token swarm build where I tend to need to dig to a big token spawn effect.
So, whats the bottom line look like? Personally of the new cards I think that Thalia's Lancers and Geier Reach Sanitarium are probably the strongest consideration cards. I went back to my OP and ran through my legendary effects to really give the Lancers some consideration and I found that I ran the following legendary effects: Heliod, God of the Sun, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Sword of the Animist, Kor Haven, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. My newer equipment build runs many of the same options as well as some like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Crovax, Ascendant Hero, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. My original build has 2x Torpor Orb effects though in it as well where as my new equipment build does not use them. I think the lancers may be worth some consideration in either build option. I also feel that Geier Reach Sanitarium may be worthy of testing as it does still very much resemble the Bazaar of Baghdad while actually tapping for mana as an option.
In addition to these two cards, I am also very much interested in testing Blaze of Glory and Valor Made Real as these effects had kind of escaped my notice previously but given that they can be used with Defiant Vanguard for a very very strong burst defense effect I think they may be worth considering as well. Blaze of Glory can also catch opponents off guard as I can force them to block with a commander or utility creature they would otherwise not block with. I am actually quite happy that they made Give No Ground as it gave me reason to investigate these effects.
Moving forward, I will see what I can do about testing all 4 of these cards. Please feel free to give input on these new cards and or considerations.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I also tend to defend myself a lot as a player as I get a lot of pot shots taken at me so my own list tends to reflect a very very defensive style of play where I try to give players reasons not to attack me as well as having appropriate answers for a variety of problems.
1 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
CREATURES (27)
1 Children of Korlis
1 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Defiant Falcon
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Whipcorder
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Lawbringer
1 Lightbringer
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mirror Entity
1 Stonecloaker
1 Thermal Glider
1 Zealot il-Vec
1 Rappelling Scouts
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Changeling Hero
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
1 Endbringer
1 Jhovall Queen
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sun Titan
1 Angel of the Dire Hour
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Expedition Map
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Distorting Lens
1 Mask of Memory
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Hedron Archive
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Batterskull
1 Mind's Eye
ENCHANTMENT (4)
1 Land Tax
1 Bound in Silence
1 Eye of Singularity
1 True Conviction
INSTANT (7)
1 Blaze of Glory
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tithe
1 Valor Made Real
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Comeuppance
1 Return to Dust
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Open the Armory
1 Rout
1 Austere Command
PLANESWALKER (1)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
LAND (40)
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dust Bowl
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 High Market
1 Kor Haven
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
22 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Winding Canyons
~~~~~CHANGE LOG~~~~~
On Assembling the deck:
New Changes:
Overall, I am adding a bit more control to my list with these changes as well as just kind of moving where my control is. I will probably need to make more adjustments as this is a lot of cards to change in one time. I also want to find room for Geier Reach Sanitarium but I will be honest that I think my IRL landbase and my digital one are a little different so I will need to sit down and do that sometime.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
My concern with hatebears in general is that they seem to be hit or miss in how relevant they are given you opponents. I think Torpor Orb is probably one of the easier ones to play around while being impactful with it but even then it depends on the meta as it can be easy for an entire meta to shift to ignore torpor orb if they are exposed to it enough. I do like hatebears but I like them more when you can splice in a little more draw. The new Thalia is cool but I worry that she has less effect as a game goes on and for her to be good I really want to be curving into her early.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Also, Y U CUT JITTE?!
Tokens are one of the biggest problems I had had with my OP list rebel list. When it came to opposing token decks I would just roll over and die probably 80% of the time to an opposing token deck. When I went to rebuild for equipment I decided that I wanted to cut into my own token strategy and instead hate on token strategies.
Umezawa's Jitte - I found it a bit lacking when the only mode I was interested in was the -/- to creatures. The +/+ and lifegain were really just kind of things I never wanted to do. I just find it more productive when I run this card in a voltron deck where the +/+ is something I actually want to do.
I had another interesting game last night. Somehow we sat down and all unknowingly played mono white against each other.
GAME REPORT:
3 player FFA. Opponents are Celestial Kirin (an interesting spirit wrath happy deck) and Kemba, Kha Regent. Kirin wins the roll so I am last.
In the opening of the game I end up dropping my commander on curve and getting to 4 mana where I get stuck temporarily. I end up tutoring for a 2 mana rebel search and then he goes to blow up 3 costs. I tutor the 1 cost rebel search as well in response just to somewhat of stagger my rebels. I manage to hit 5 mana and I drop Thalia's Lancers in and fetch up Nykthos with it.
I think I replay lin Sivvi the next turn after he blows her up. I think the Kemba player killed Kirin's commander so Kirin moves to an actual Wrath of God. I play a Steel Hellkite on a mostly empty board. Kirin drops a Angel of Flight Alabaster into play. Kemba plays an Intrepid Hero with a Mystifying Maze with mana up for it. I swing at Kirin who for some really odd reason blocks my Helkite. I cant recall exactly what I did here but it might have been recast my commander.
Kirin played a Karmic Guide and rezes his Angel of Flight Alabaster to play. Kemba I think plays his commander out. I swing at Kirin and Blaze of Glory his Angel of Flight Alabaster so he doesn't just chump me with the Karmic Guide. He ends up double blocking and I end up not paying to kill the Karmic because he still has an echo I feel he wont pay.
Kemba gets a few more cat tokens in play and I drop a Bound in Silence on his commander to kind of split him between attacking with equipment or paying to flip flop them. When he gets up to like 4 tokens I drop a Tabernacle.
Kirin ended up paying for the Karmic echo and later drops a Cloudstone Curio and flickers the Karmic in and out every turn. Kemba uses his Intrepid Hero to keep the Angel of Flight Alabaster out of play. We go on for several turns of Kirin just kind of jerking off with his Curio + Karmic combo. Eventually Kemba forces him to hit the 3 mana stuff for some reason which kills the Curio. I get a few more rebels in play with my commander and then end up walking into a Final Judgment from Kirin.
I am sitting in hand with mostly defensive wraths at this point so I kind of sit back behind my 2x maze effects and let Kemba do some work at this point. Kemba ends up bringing Kirin down with just some tokens and an angel eventually. Right about when Kirin is dying my Emeria, the Sky Ruin goes active and I start rezing Steel Hellkite and Endbringer (I cant remember how endbringer died but it was very uneventful when it did). Kemba swings at me with all of his creatures and I drop a Angel of the Dire Hour blowing out his attack. He then drops a Descend upon the Sinful on me and then a Relic of Progenitus that he then uses.
I at this point cast my commander at 11 mana I think it was. I pass back to him with a Tower of the Magistrate up which I use to keep him off of making additional angel tokens with his Moonsilver Spear. I think he plays Kemba and or another equipment. I pass turn with my mana up. He moves his equipment around between his angel and Kemba. I drop the spear off when he moves to attack using the Tower of the Magistrate. He decides not to attack given my commander + mazes. I tutor for Lawbringer at his end step. On my turn I drop a Distorting Lens and spin up the removal cannon. I mimic his last turn and protection the spear off when he moves to attacks and then I remove Kemba. I then tutor up Lightbringer and rez the Lawbringer on my turn. He scoops.
I apologize if my report jumps a little here and there and or misses out on things. I tried to tell the highlights as by the end of the game, I believe the last time Kirin was cast was for 12 or 14 mana. It was a very long and grueling game of answers.
Overall, the game was good. My one complaint was the annoyance of creatures who generate value over time. I did kind of screw up though as in an early attack on me I threw away my Basilisk Collar which I should have held onto.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I like your thoughts on blaze of glory and vanguard but it just seems very situational at best. I,guess it depends how often you play against tokens.
Collective effort seems ok. Not quite sure on it yet. Likely replace my aura of silence.
As noted above, we each play different styles so it'll be neat how each design plays out. I'm very much focused on specific interaction (swords, etc...).
I play online so time is occasionally an issue cause you can't tap out ( to auto yield). How do you on handle time management in real life as you are often searching end of turn?
Side note, I once got asked if my list was yours. You are known as the Lin sivvi go to player.
Blessed Alliance seems interesting from the standpoint that the untap part of it could be fun with rebels but the amount of mana you would need to take advantage of that seems high. When looking at it from the perspective of the attacker sacrifice I think Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile / Oblation are things I would all consider probably before it. I also think that Wing Shards probably beats this effect for the most part if you want the attacker sacrifice effect. To be honest though, we have so many combat tricks already for single attackers I would be very hesitant to do any sort of attacker sacrifice effect in a deck like this. I think its an interesting effect but I also dont think its an effect that rebels overly need.
Blaze of Glory - for now I dont have a lot to add one way or the other. What I do know is that this deck defends itself very well against single big attackers (eldrazi and the such) so what I am more interested in is the ability to not just burst die. If someone does 30 / 40 of my life in damage in a turn I will just tutor for Children of Korlis. People know that in my meta you generally have to swarm kill me or just continue to hit me for solid numbers turn after turn. Blaze of Glory is my answer to that problem right now as are things such as Comeuppance and Angel of the Dire Hour. I honestly do need to test a lot more before I can really give good feedback on how these effects might be working for me as they tend to be an effect for when someone else is running away with the game however traditional wraths give me some problem in setting back up so I do like the idea of more of these one sided effects.
Collective effort - I really like the effect but the fact that its a sorcery makes it far less good. Honestly if it was an instant I would probably put it in the list. I am not very keen on selective creature + enchantment removal at sorcery speed is why I am mostly passing on this. If it was an instant, I think it might be justifiable to test but I dont like this sort of effect at sorcery speed.
End of Turn Searching - I wait for my opponent to declare their turn end and I state that I have a priority at their end step I want. Its harder if you are playing on something like trice but you probably want to have typed.... "End of Your Turn" and press enter right after they try to pass to you. You really dont want to be doing this before that or you give up a lot of the effect that comes from waiting.
Generally speaking, MTGS is kind of one of the bigger hubs when it comes to commander primers. Its not unheard of to assume that a list might be at least loosely based on a primer or that a user may have viewed and seen the options of a deck at the location of the primer. I was also known for my Jenara primer who had several thousand comments that crossed over something like 4 years of play. I wonder if one day I pull out my list and someone identifies me from my alters. I dont travel enough normally speaking for that to happen though.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/variant-commander/738656-2dh-lin-sivvi-defiant-cheapskate-now-with-mini
In case it interests aficionados of this thread A few cards I'd like to hear more about from you guys:
Reveille Squad: This rebel seems too good not to run. If you're attacked, you get to search twice, tap down two creatures with Whipcorder and so on. It's not just "surprise vigilance", though a fetchable 3/3 for 4 giving vigilance to all isn't too shabby by itself IMO.
Darksteel Mutation: I think this might be the best board locking aura in EDH. It's not as versatile as Faith's Fetters, but I think it's much better than even Lignify and Prison Term. You can still attack the player you use it on and he can't get out just by blocking and killing as with Lignify - it also doesn't fall off from wraths. The player really must have a disenchant effect or a sac outlet or he is screwed. It's like a retroactive Nevermore against commanders. And it's tutorable with the aura tutors that are pretty much all that's available for tutoring in mono-white 2DH.
Well of Lost Dreams: Gentlemen, this is 1 mana per card after a humble downpayment of 4. Just a single strike with Changeling Hero, or one life cycle of Aven Riftwatcher, and you get 4 cards from it. That alone would make the 4+4 mana investment worth it and much better than Tower of Fortunes, but it will often give you much more. I'd definitely take this over Endbringer and Staff of Nin too. IMO, only Mentor of the Meek and the best equipment can compete with it.
Survival Cache: Do you often have more life than at least one opponent? Then this is a better divination in white. What do you think?
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I found collective effort bad.
Blessed alliance is a card that stays in your hand. However, when it could be used it did a lot for 2-4 mana.
I added canyons to my list. Flash creatures are fun. Though still no replacement for vendilkon orrery (card makes for insane plays). Instant austere command. Flash in academy rector, humility, etc... The best card in my deck for blowout plays.
Thanks, its interesting to hear from someone who regularly plays 2HG. My own group occasionally does 6 player 3 team 2HG which is also fun to try sometimes as it gives the FFA feel of commander still while also being simplified on turn duration over most other 6 player options I have seen.
Reveille Squad - so the problem is that in most cases I could just get a second tutoring rebel. This guy is an extra body on the field but also it turns into more setup time as well as more losses when the wraths do come. I generally only want one or two things a turn and we already have a lot of means of deterring things from attacking us. Its a little different that you are talking about 2HG because in a lot of ways its more like a heads up sort of gameplan. Its hard to really compare some of the same strategy because part of how I play this deck is to pillowfort but pillowforting works a lot less when you are the only opponents. In general, I dont have a lot of situations where someone attacks me and the difference between one and two rebels would matter much. Its possible that the psudo vigilance could matter more with the equipment build having a decent blocker as well. I just wish that the creature body mattered more I guess.
Darksteel Mutation - I think it matters a little bit as to what commanders you have problems with. I like this as an idea against like static ability commanders. In general though I dont like how it protects them from wraths though. It depends on what kind of sweepers you see in your own meta but I see a lot of effects that destroy all non land effects it seems like which feel super bad when you push someone's commander through with this.
Well of Lost Dreams - I would feel better about this if I had more lifegain on rebels. Most of the lifegain in here come from situational cards. If you give up your Changeling Hero then it suddenly is not an option if you get swept. Children of Korlis will probably never be an option with the well as most people will know about that trick. So, that leaves us with kind of less optimal rebels with lifegain on them. If we had a decent rebel option with sustainable lifegain I would probably jump on it but it just seems like a lot of work with any of the options. I am not too keen on blowing my Champion to try to draw cards
Survival Cache - it seems fun. I like the card. This deck is defensive to pull it off most of the time.
My own testing - I played a game last week and it was mostly ok but I was going up against a 5 color planeswalker deck which was very trying. I kept a lot of the walkers in check and in return a Riku player managed to play a Master of Waves with 2x copies of it just swarming the game with tokens. I tried dropping an Elesh Norn and age a Pact of Negation that was for the game essentially. I didn't see any of the new cards in that game last week.
Collective Effort - I want to like it but sorcery speed spot removal is just bad. Its a cool combination of effects but its not good enough.
Winding Canyons - its occasionally useful. I do love Vedalken Orrery but it draws so much hate in my meta I rarely expect it to last a turn anymore. Winding Canyons seems to escape notice a lot better from what I have seen in part because its not as good but also because its a bit more narrow.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Creature (18)
1x Academy Rector
1x Children of Korlis
1x Defiant Falcon
1x Defiant Vanguard
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Emeria Shepherd
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Lawbringer
1x Lightbringer
1x Mentor of the Meek
1x Mirror Entity
1x Ramosian Sergeant
1x Reveillark
1x Reveille Squad
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Whipcorder
Instant (12)
1x Argivian Find
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Lapse of Certainty
1x Mana Tithe
1x Oblation
1x Path to Exile
1x Return to Dust
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tithe
1x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Warping Wail
Land (37)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arcane Lighthouse
1x Buried Ruin
1x Desert
1x Emeria, The Sky Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Homeward Path
1x Kjeldoran Outpost
1x Kor Haven
1x Marsh Flats
1x Myriad Landscape
20x Plains
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of the False God
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Winding Canyons
1x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (8)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Bound in Silence
1x Grasp of Fate
1x Humility
1x Land Tax
1x Parallax Wave
1x Rest in Peace
1x Seal of Cleansing
Planeswalker (2)
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Gideon Jura
Commander
Artifact (17)
1x Batterskull
1x Citanul Flute
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Helm of Possession
1x Mana Crypt
1x Marble Diamond
1x Mind Stone
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of the Animist
1x Thought Vessel
1x Trading Post
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Vedalken Orrery
Sorcery (5)
1x Austere Command
1x Council's Judgment
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Terminus
1x Tragic Arrogance
I have one more card in the deck. I'm just sure at this moment what that card it. Its designed for an unknown metagame as I play online.
CONSPIRACY 2 SET REVIEW:
MONARCH - At the beginning of your end step, draw a card. Whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, its controller becomes the monarch. lets talk about this mechanic first before I delve into card analysis because I feel like I would otherwise be repeating myself. So this mechanic rewards you for playing defensive and acts as a phyrexian arena. We also have some good evasive creatures which can retake the monarch as needed. This is potentially a good effect but keep in mind it also paints a target on your face which means you will possibly have to fort harder than you otherwise would have to. It is continuous card draw though that can not be spot removed so its actually somewhat good against attrition or control style of decks because unlike a Phyrexian Arena, once this ball gets rolling it cant be taken away. In the same fashion, you will be drawing attention and heat from aggro decks so evasive attackers will be even more of a pain in the ass to you than they were before.
Custodi Soulcaller its interesting in the fact that it can rez 3 or less mana minions fairly decently which makes up a lot of the rebel package. The problem with this though is that it requires a specific setup to do it and it requires itself to be able to attack and not really die. I guess I would put it as some sort of like..... really bad Sun Titan that costs less. Its interesting but unfortunately its so situational and slow it kind of hurts. Its a cool design for an uncommon but I dont think it gets there.
Palace Jailer monarch is a powerful effect. This guy also temporarily makes something go away so its possible if you need like a big scarry attacker or evasive to go away it could be an answer as well as set up some card draw. I realllllly dont like Oblivion Ring effects especially when they are the new templating + on a creature but the fact that this also starts up the game of monarch is possibly worth considering.
Protector of the Crown this deck is already defensive and this can catch a big attack. The biggest problem for me is its cost to cast but it comes with monarch + it blocks things up a bit. I think I actually like it more in my original token build where I ran more big mana so you could potentially drop it and do something else yet in that turn without full committing to playing this. Its an interesting card and probably my favorite of the white monarch effects.
Recruiter of the Guard new imperial recruiter for white. What isn't to love about this? The one thing I will say though is to keep in mind what your potential targets are and how situational those cards or or which cards you see yourself normally searching for. I have the following targets in my current build: Serra Ascendant, Weathered Wayfarer, Stoneforge Mystic, Mentor of the Meek, Stonecloaker, and Solemn Simulacrum. I think it should be fairly good as I normally plan to play Lin Sivvi at 3 mana so it gives the option of turn 4 for a Serra Ascendant turn if I want. I think that tutoring for wayfarer also seems good especially in my build because I have some great utility lands in my list.
Sanctum Prelate I would say that it could be a wrath defense or something but honestly it seems sort of selective and specific for this format. If you are playing faster games with more combo and or control I could see it being possibly a little better as cutting off 1 or 2 mana things could be very strong there. Offhand, hitting for 2 or 3 is probably where I would go if I were to play it. At 2 you cut off a lot of counters and cyclonic rift if playing against blue. Against other decks you might try 3 to cut off just a lot of general good value cards as well as a few wraths. In the end, I think it will be a little too niche to really get away with in this format.
Guardian of the Gateless I more mention this because I think it has a cool bit of style. This card really really wanted to have flash but sadly did not get it. It reminds me a lot of a defensive Teeka's Dragon + Lure play (that really brings me back lol). I more just wanted to give this a really cool flavor shout out but overall its going to fall short. If they had gone and given it flash I would have loved to see what it would have done.
Throne of the High City realistically, it seems fairly decent here because you can invest the mana into it at end step so you are not tapping out to do the monarch effect and most of the monarch effects are a little underwhelming. This might be a good deck to try this which is surprising because there are not many decks I really felt that monarch might work in. This might be the most playable one for this playstyle.
So, the bottom line.... I guess I have to give Recruiter of the Guard as probably the most playable but thats to no real surprise as its probably the best card for this format from the entire set. Throne of the High City has my interest currently as I think it has some good potential and I guess finally Protector of the Crown is something I will at least think about. That is my top three currently. My own thoughts on this is that I will probably try to make room for Recruiter of the Guard and Throne of the High City. Protector of the Crown I keep going back and forth with but its something that could be a possibility yet.
Sorry for the delayed response. I remember seeing your post but I totally blanked on responding. In general my experience with online commander is that the social aspects of it get played down a lot assuming there is much of any of it. Its unfortunate as thats one of the biggest elements of commander I like about playing it IRL. People tend to play on assumptions a lot more when going into unknown games which online plays into so when they see mono white they will generally downgrade their threat assessment of you. This is to your benefit but its also a pain in the ass because some people will just play 5c combo online and that is a lot harder for mono white to interact with.
Overall, your list looks good. It looks like you went with the light rebel approach (something I have gone on both sides of the coin of). It does look like you have added a lot of control to your list which is cool. I think a permanent light approach is cool to see considering online I suspect a lot of people dont target you heavily. I have had to make adjustments and defend myself a lot more often with my own list in a continuous meta.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I think its about every block or so I ask myself, why cant they do rebels again
Realistically, wizards seems to not like doing the tribal thing very often and when they do it they seem to like to go into a new direction with new tribes rather than come back to the ones that exist or stick to the ones that are like the main tribe or two each set.
I have also asked myself why they dont consider doing changeling again in one of these sets that does not get pushed into standard and modern because it would be a good way to do some generic fillers that encompass what the colors do. I would love to see a mythic white changeling flyer to be honest. Sadly, I keep just keeping my hopes up for some sort of combination of changelings or rebels returning but in the end there is a lot of things that can help us that is shy of seeing rebels again.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
If not for the color identity rule I would totally put in big game hunter. That is not a rule I intend to try to play around though.
Endbringer - I dont have a lot of results from it so far to be honest. Sometimes it just gets spot removed which has been a bit sad. I like what it does for me offhand but I have not had it hit play very often. As far as the landbase goes, its more budget to go heavier plains based but we have been getting some great utility lands in the last few sets so I would encourage you to try to slowly expand your nonbasic count. We really only need the two white to cast lin sivvi for the most part and other than that utility lands dont hurt much of at all (unless your opponents run Ruination / Back to Basics).
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
That's a thing. I thought I would mention it here because of Children of Korlis you could repeatedly fire it or fire it and recover which would be kind of rough. It opens up the idea of a lifegain rebel deck more considering there is an infinite lifegain combo with rebels and or using lifegain with Felidar Sovereign / Test of Endurance.
I more just wanted to point this card out with some of the potential it has here than anything. I dont think I would go down such avenues considering how I feel like I would and do feel about other players doing such tactics to me. Its also a lot more towards the idea of combo and mono white really cant keep up with the arms race that might cause. Still, I thought it was interesting when combined with Children of Korlis.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
While I am here I guess I can give a rundown on Commander 2016 (or is this commander 17.... I dont recall how they name these things)
I really want to go back and rebuild based on the original token tactics but with moving a few of the wraths to be more defensive measures at instant speed. Selfless Squire definitely has my interest and things like Comeuppance, Angel of the Dire Hour, and a few other instant speed tricks may help us keep overwhelming force from being how we go out. Hang in there and I will see if I cant get another list here soon. I need to do some maintenance to the OP but like I said I am trying to adjust and try new things to see what works for me best.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
That does sound pretty interesting, actually. I mean, I'll have to wait until either Copter rotates or I get a fifth (because Staaaaaandard), but it's definitely on my watch list.