I keep switching between Melek and T&L. I just can't make up my mind which I would rather have.
My Melek list is more dedicated storm/spellslinging and my T&L list replaces some of the cards with equipment/pump/Combat things.
If everything goes right, the Melek deck is stronger easily. However, if I encounter a lot of graveyard hate or counterspells and such, the Melek deck can really struggle. People recognize what I want to do and they tend to focus on me a lot more. Sometimes it feels like when they get rid of my few key cards that I have nothing left to kill them with.
With T&L people don't really see them as a threat and tend to leave me alone a bit more and there is never a big rush to kill my general. Also the deck seems a lot more flexible. If they take out my entire graveyard with all my combo pieces in it, I don't mind too much because I can still go the aggro route and kill them that way. The spellslinging is definitely weaker, but I have other options if I need them.
TLDR - For me, Melek is more all in spells strategy that can be disrupted, leaving me without easy ways to win. T&L is more flexible and can shrug off losing a few combo pieces, but it is sometimes harder to go off with.
Raise your hand if you cast Ignite Memories for 28 between multiple opponents and did 10 damage or less!
/raise
Two opponents with two cards in hand. 3 lands and a 5-drop between them. 18 at the guy with 2 lands for zero damage, 10 at the guy with a land and the 5-drop and hit the 5-drop twice.
The worst part is there was a Wheel of Fortune on the stack (my wheel) that I was responding to (Orrery) because I thought I trapped my opponents with business cards in their hand. I read the situation all wrong and I should have just let them both draw 7 first. Whoops!
Actually in that game I had about 7 ways to win that were all being HEAVILY disrupted by my own Possibility Storm. Melek was up to 9 to cast (died twice, Helm of Awakening in play). Tezzeret in hand to get the pike for my Inkmoth? Useless, because I had no other walkers. Runechanter's Pike in hand with an Inkmoth in play? Useless, unless I could draw more artifacts after casting it. Molten Psyche? Useless in my hand, can't get the damn thing in the yard for Past in Flames. Guttersnipe in hand? LOL spellshift it into Goblin Electromancer (who needs Talrand or Young Pyromancer anyway). My deck pretty much kicked me in the nuts last weekend. Which is still funny to me because just last week with my Unexpected Results deck, I had a huge army that I couldn't attack with because of my own damn Stormtide Leviathan flipped off an Intet trigger and I couldn't close out the game before a plane swap into Morphic Tides (the Warp World phenomenon) and promptly lost afterwards.
Of course I want more.
OH YEAH so one more thing. This rules interaction kicked me in the nuts too. I got to Mind's Desire a bunch in that game. Possibility Storm triggers when cards are cast from your hand. Mind's Desire lets you cast spells from exile as though they were cast from your hand. So any spells you flip from Mind's Desire are spellshifted. Which normally is not a big deal, since either way they are random spells (and they double your storm count!). Unfortunately I flipped a bunch of awesome business spells with Mind's Desire, which were promptly spellshifted into less-harmful spells when my fellow rules-junkie noticed the fine print on Mind's Desire. So yeah! Learn something new every time with this deck.
That is why I don't run possibility storm.
Playing random cards from my deck is rarely better than playing what I actually draw and tutor for. Flashback works around it, but I find it is too limiting.
That is why I don't run possibility storm.
Playing random cards from my deck is rarely better than playing what I actually draw and tutor for. Flashback works around it, but I find it is too limiting.
It's still so good with Melek and storm card (doubles your storm count) and it curves beautifully right under him that I am not ready to cut it just yet. Also you can always just not cast it, or just recast Melek when he dies. The problem (at least, my problem) I think lies in playing against commanders or players that can off Melek without casting spells. In my case, the Grimgrin player who keeps drawing into Attrition or Stronghold Assassin. If you can't get around your own Possibility Storm, you're almost as screwed as everyone else.
Flashback is definitely a bit limiting as a way to get around it but you always have the trump card of Past in Flames to get around it completely, which is how I was able to set up the huge Ignite Memories.
Another way to get around it is Future Sight, of course. I have cut it previously but it might be time to find its way back in for another shot. It's disgusting with Top, of course...
I had a poor starting hand with no acceleration or draw (after mulliganning). I then proceeded to top deck everything I could ask for.
First I pulled my Timetwister, then Windfall, then Foursee, then Halls.
I dropped Halls and proceeded to do some shenanigans, but I ran out of steam and didn't draw into anything to get me more colored cards and had to pass turn with halls in play. Someone destroyed halls with a split card and I :crying:, but on my next draw I got Recall. If you don't run this card, it's fantastic and should really be considered a staple of this type of build. I pitched a few cards and pulled back Halls and Timetwister.
Played Halls again, but didn't have the mana or the cards for twister, so had to pass turn again. Once again Halls was destroyed by a naturalize and I was :crying:.
When it came back around to me again, I twistered and got LTP and a Brainstorm. Pulled Halls again and played it. This time around I was all set to go off. I got Mind's Desire off with a storm count of 10 and flipped all good stuff, minus 3 lands. Had ignite memories in that pile of awesome. Played Geth's Grimoire followed by Wheel of Fortune. Drew 27 cards and at that point offered to concede.
The table said no, we want to see this nonsense, so I proceeded to grow the storm count and show them that by storm 30 or so that I'd just Temporal Fissure them or Ignite Memories, or Molten Psyche, etc them out. At that point everyone scooped.
So, Steam Augury is a "fixed" Fact or Fiction, but still digs 5 cards deep at instant speed for 4 and still puts the other cards in the graveyard for abuse. What are people's thoughts on it for this?
Easily makes the deck and I can't wait to play it! It's a bit more skill intensive but the mind games factor is amazing. Revealing something like Past in Flames or Mystic Retrieval is just a nightmare for your opponents. Dumping the other pile in the yard is exactly the sort of thing we want. And instant speed too? Really? Yeah it's a good card.
My favorite card in the set so far. Wizards is really winning me over.
Btw another easy win tonight. Flash is OP. Flashed in Melek in off a Leyline with a juicy graveyard (2 wheels already), untapped with 7 mana and went Mystical Tutor for 2x Turnabout, flipped into Increasing Vengeance, Mystic Retrieval 2x copied into Mana Geyser for about 20 mana and Mystical Tutor, Geyser and Turnabout. Tutor into Past in Flames, then Molten Psyche 3x with the Flashbacked Increasing Vengeance, responded to with Wheel of Fortune. About 60 to everyone.
Lesson learned for opponents? Tap out and get owned.
OH YEAH so one more thing. This rules interaction kicked me in the nuts too. I got to Mind's Desire a bunch in that game. Possibility Storm triggers when cards are cast from your hand. Mind's Desire lets you cast spells from exile as though they were cast from your hand. So any spells you flip from Mind's Desire are spellshifted. Which normally is not a big deal, since either way they are random spells (and they double your storm count!). Unfortunately I flipped a bunch of awesome business spells with Mind's Desire, which were promptly spellshifted into less-harmful spells when my fellow rules-junkie noticed the fine print on Mind's Desire. So yeah! Learn something new every time with this deck.
I'm 90% sure this doesn't interact. While Mind's Desire does have that wording, you're still casting it from exile... I will need to look into that.
Yeah, that's just how they used to word these things. Here's the Oracle wording:
Shuffle your library. Then exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may play that card without paying its mana cost. (If it has X in its mana cost, X is 0.)
The "as though it's in your hand" was simply explaining that you could still cast spells, since it was a bit of an uncommon mechanic back then.
You can pitch it to rulings if you want, but the Oracle text clarifies a large amount.
So, Steam Augury is a "fixed" Fact or Fiction, but still digs 5 cards deep at instant speed for 4 and still puts the other cards in the graveyard for abuse. What are people's thoughts on it for this?
New FOF is definitely going in my deck. It may be 'fixed,' but there's still one choice on you, and one on them. If piles are being split right, it likely shouldn't matter. The only time it matters is when you need a specific card, then your opponent can ditch that one.
Either way, this is a 5 card dig, and going to hand, or going to grave, who cares? We love it. Or at least, I love it.
For those that want creature beats, that new Chimera could be quite a quite decent sword strapper.
I was going to comment on that myself. Between that, the new Heroic creatures and other creatures recently printed, have we finally hit the critical mass of creatures needed to make a creature-based version of the deck?
Adding a third color may be required (green gives us better targeted pump, white better heroic creatures), but it could be a fun variant of the deck for anyone that's tired of the storm game.
New FOF is definitely going in my deck. It may be 'fixed,' but there's still one choice on you, and one on them. If piles are being split right, it likely shouldn't matter. The only time it matters is when you need a specific card, then your opponent can ditch that one.
Either way, this is a 5 card dig, and going to hand, or going to grave, who cares? We love it. Or at least, I love it.
Mine too. There's going to be situations where this is better than FoF since you can make the piles more synergystic if you don't need a specific card, for example putting Islands with blue cards and mountains with red cards instead of the other way around like your opponent would have done. Once you involve Past in Flames this is pretty much draw 5 cards for 4 mana which is pretty sweet.
New chimera is pretty interesting as I almost always have upwards of 10 instants and sorceries in the yard, sometimes 20... but to be fair isually the game is about over at that point. Makes another great Pike holder for obvious reasons!
Also I don't know about you guys but there's so much black weenie recursion in my meta that the new 3 mana mass exiling burn spell could make my deck. I kind of worry about my opponents' sac outlets stopping the exile effect but that would deal with a lot of Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts and the like.
Btw, Have you ever considered Blighted Agent as a budget option to Inkmoth Nexus? We got with him Infect and Unblockability, so one-shot-kill can be easily done, if he survives till next turn or he got haste.
Blighted Agent is too easy to kill IMO. No protection, goes down as collateral damage to any wrath. I much prefer Inkmoth Nexus or Faerie Conclave and/or an Expedition Map to lay down some beats if necessary. His value DOES increase with the amount of flash enablers we play in Melek (flash him in, play+equip pike and swing for the kill) but without them (or the pike!) I basically consider him a dead card that does nothing on his own, which really describes the kinds of cards I hate playing with.
Until now I played bob´s aggro version from the first page. Few minutes ago I tested Sonic´s shell for Izzet from page 60 (because I am reading whole thread) with addition of few cards and Nin as a commander.
...
I don´t have words for that spellstorm I created in a test game. I just don´t.
just stopped in to say that I played my first game with the basic package of the title deck, and it has already become my favorite. I ditched my melek deck in favor of this, and im not looking back!
This thread has been quiet as of late, seemingly because of people working on other decks with Theros having been released. The spoilers for Commander 2013 yesterday though revealed a very interesting new general for the WheelStorm type spellslinger builds: Nekusar. There are a few threads about him already, but all those builds are punisher style builds and not the spellslinging Wheel builds like what we use here (this can easily be moved into its own thread if Bob prefers, but I figured since this is the de facto place to discuss spellslinger decks I'd start discussion here).
Nekusar isn't quite the Zap General Sonik was wanting, but I like him better than Niv-Mizzet since he does damage off of my opponents' draws, rather than my own. Turning all Wheel effects into Molten Psyche doesn't really need any explanation as to how good it can be in a multiplayer setting, and I think this ability, coupled with the sheer power of some of the cards you gain access to make it worth adding the third color.
Here's a very rough list to go with as a starting point, based on some of the more recent builds posted here.
As I said, it's a very rough base, I'm sure there's choices in here that may prove inferior to other options, but I wanted to post a base to launch discussion from.
Yeah, Tendrils probably deserves a spot, as does perhaps Exsanguinate. Necrologia is another card I want to try to cram in. There's also a few other packages that could be tried out as I get around to testing:
I'm sure overnight I'll think of other options to try out as well, since I tend to like oddball stuff (I play Dream Cache in my budget Melek list, for example). I just wanted to float some ideas to generate conversation again over my favorite deck archetype.
Also, off topic slightly Bob, but your Lazav thread has convinced me that if you tried to play a Dimir Spellslinger deck he's probably the way to go.
I'll be building the crap out of our zombie friend. Black is the new red baby. I'm still in the research phase but I'll report back when I have a real deck. I am really excited about tricks like Hive Mind + Wheel + Cerebral Vortex, Mind over Matter + Jace's Archivist, Guiltfeeder/Abyssal Nocturnus/Sangromancer shenanigans... there's so many options! Going with punishing draw, gaining off of discard triggers and mass discard... I'll be having a difficult time balancing it at first but I'll get there eventually. Hopefully I don't forget to buy any of the good black cards I need
Melek was good to me and I'll definitely build him again someday but it's getting to be time to move on, old buddy
Good to see I'm not the only one who's excited about the new general option we got. It may be too mean for some, but in MCR's thread (which seems to be slowly morphing towards being a true Spellslinger build) someone suggested using Infect cards such as Tainted Strike to make Nekusar lethal much more quickly to a whole table. Seems like an option that would be worth exploring, as it's possibly superior to trying to have a backup aggro plan.
Also, since it's now going to be widely available thanks to the Commander 2013 decks, what do people think of Strategic Planning? It does dig for 1 less than Impulse, but it also puts all three cards in places where we can more readily abuse them. I'm definitely planning on giving it a shot once I get the deck with it.
trancekat here has referred me over to this thread. I love the concept of spellslinging, and would like to hear if you guys have any opinions on what you think the most optimal build for Nekusar would be.
I currently have an active thread with lots of ideas pouring in, and it's hard to filter the strong and weak ideas because all of them sound so good. In the end, I'm not sure if going pure punisher is the correct way to build the deck, so I'd like to ask for your expertise and opinions on the archetype!
EDIT:
Also, a big fan of your preliminary list, HydraTMD. It definitely looks a lot more steady than what I have going on in my list. I feel like I have had too many opinions pull me in too many different directions. The real goal of the deck is just to basically have a Grixis Wheel deck, with pain being one of the routes to victory. If spellslinging storm is the more optimal way to go, with Nekusar being an added benefit, I'm totally okay with that too.
trancekat here has referred me over to this thread. I love the concept of spellslinging, and would like to hear if you guys have any opinions on what you think the most optimal build for Nekusar would be.
I currently have an active thread with lots of ideas pouring in, and it's hard to filter the strong and weak ideas because all of them sound so good. In the end, I'm not sure if going pure punisher is the correct way to build the deck, so I'd like to ask for your expertise and opinions on the archetype!
EDIT:
Also, a big fan of your preliminary list, HydraTMD. It definitely looks a lot more steady than what I have going on in my list. I feel like I have had too many opinions pull me in too many different directions. The real goal of the deck is just to basically have a Grixis Wheel deck, with pain being one of the routes to victory. If spellslinging storm is the more optimal way to go, with Nekusar being an added benefit, I'm totally okay with that too.
I'm sure everyone here feels your pain on being pulled in too many directions, as most of us here have gone through a ton of different incarnations of our Spellslinger decks, as there's a lot of different ways to build it. Over the past several months though, we all seemed to converge on the WheelStorm builds being best, which is why I posted my theory deck here rather than your thread, it's not that far off conceptually from what many of us are already running.
Nekusar, to me, is a general that just wants to reward you for doing stuff, much like T&L. You can overload on punisher style effects, but I feel like they just clutter your hand and do nothing of any real interest on their own. Wheeling into 5 mana, Megrim, and Underworld Dreams just feels like a sure way to be an unhappy camper. Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner have proven to be very effective finishers, and now they come with a general that helps them win without needing to enter the red zone to do it.
Another advantage of starting from here is the fact that this style deck has had the better part of two years worth of testing from a lot of different people, allowing us to very easily dismiss a lot of the "cute" cards as having already been tried in the past by someone. Having a well-established shell pre-existing should make testing new ideas relatively simple.
Now that said, one thing I'm thinking might need adjusting from my initial list is the inclusion of cards like Scroll Rack, Brainstorm, Dream Cache, and Conch Horn (okay, maybe not the last two) to put back Wheel effects to insure that we are properly chaining them together. Something like Cruel Tutor may even have a place for that same reason. Sadly I've been too busy to do any testing (newborn in the house), but that seems like a change that should be looked into.
OK my fellow Izzet Guild Members,
Here's my first draft of our Grixis friend - Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I don't have much opportunity to test, but fortunately, this is kind of a spellsinging build similar to my Nin Storm build, so I play with myself basically (!phrasing!)
I will find a spot for "Waste Not" once it's available. Also considering Wheel and Deal
My Melek list is more dedicated storm/spellslinging and my T&L list replaces some of the cards with equipment/pump/Combat things.
If everything goes right, the Melek deck is stronger easily. However, if I encounter a lot of graveyard hate or counterspells and such, the Melek deck can really struggle. People recognize what I want to do and they tend to focus on me a lot more. Sometimes it feels like when they get rid of my few key cards that I have nothing left to kill them with.
With T&L people don't really see them as a threat and tend to leave me alone a bit more and there is never a big rush to kill my general. Also the deck seems a lot more flexible. If they take out my entire graveyard with all my combo pieces in it, I don't mind too much because I can still go the aggro route and kill them that way. The spellslinging is definitely weaker, but I have other options if I need them.
TLDR - For me, Melek is more all in spells strategy that can be disrupted, leaving me without easy ways to win. T&L is more flexible and can shrug off losing a few combo pieces, but it is sometimes harder to go off with.
/raise
Two opponents with two cards in hand. 3 lands and a 5-drop between them. 18 at the guy with 2 lands for zero damage, 10 at the guy with a land and the 5-drop and hit the 5-drop twice.
The worst part is there was a Wheel of Fortune on the stack (my wheel) that I was responding to (Orrery) because I thought I trapped my opponents with business cards in their hand. I read the situation all wrong and I should have just let them both draw 7 first. Whoops!
Actually in that game I had about 7 ways to win that were all being HEAVILY disrupted by my own Possibility Storm. Melek was up to 9 to cast (died twice, Helm of Awakening in play). Tezzeret in hand to get the pike for my Inkmoth? Useless, because I had no other walkers. Runechanter's Pike in hand with an Inkmoth in play? Useless, unless I could draw more artifacts after casting it. Molten Psyche? Useless in my hand, can't get the damn thing in the yard for Past in Flames. Guttersnipe in hand? LOL spellshift it into Goblin Electromancer (who needs Talrand or Young Pyromancer anyway). My deck pretty much kicked me in the nuts last weekend. Which is still funny to me because just last week with my Unexpected Results deck, I had a huge army that I couldn't attack with because of my own damn Stormtide Leviathan flipped off an Intet trigger and I couldn't close out the game before a plane swap into Morphic Tides (the Warp World phenomenon) and promptly lost afterwards.
Of course I want more.
OH YEAH so one more thing. This rules interaction kicked me in the nuts too. I got to Mind's Desire a bunch in that game. Possibility Storm triggers when cards are cast from your hand. Mind's Desire lets you cast spells from exile as though they were cast from your hand. So any spells you flip from Mind's Desire are spellshifted. Which normally is not a big deal, since either way they are random spells (and they double your storm count!). Unfortunately I flipped a bunch of awesome business spells with Mind's Desire, which were promptly spellshifted into less-harmful spells when my fellow rules-junkie noticed the fine print on Mind's Desire. So yeah! Learn something new every time with this deck.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Playing random cards from my deck is rarely better than playing what I actually draw and tutor for. Flashback works around it, but I find it is too limiting.
It's still so good with Melek and storm card (doubles your storm count) and it curves beautifully right under him that I am not ready to cut it just yet. Also you can always just not cast it, or just recast Melek when he dies. The problem (at least, my problem) I think lies in playing against commanders or players that can off Melek without casting spells. In my case, the Grimgrin player who keeps drawing into Attrition or Stronghold Assassin. If you can't get around your own Possibility Storm, you're almost as screwed as everyone else.
Flashback is definitely a bit limiting as a way to get around it but you always have the trump card of Past in Flames to get around it completely, which is how I was able to set up the huge Ignite Memories.
Another way to get around it is Future Sight, of course. I have cut it previously but it might be time to find its way back in for another shot. It's disgusting with Top, of course...
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I had a poor starting hand with no acceleration or draw (after mulliganning). I then proceeded to top deck everything I could ask for.
First I pulled my Timetwister, then Windfall, then Foursee, then Halls.
I dropped Halls and proceeded to do some shenanigans, but I ran out of steam and didn't draw into anything to get me more colored cards and had to pass turn with halls in play. Someone destroyed halls with a split card and I :crying:, but on my next draw I got Recall. If you don't run this card, it's fantastic and should really be considered a staple of this type of build. I pitched a few cards and pulled back Halls and Timetwister.
Played Halls again, but didn't have the mana or the cards for twister, so had to pass turn again. Once again Halls was destroyed by a naturalize and I was :crying:.
When it came back around to me again, I twistered and got LTP and a Brainstorm. Pulled Halls again and played it. This time around I was all set to go off. I got Mind's Desire off with a storm count of 10 and flipped all good stuff, minus 3 lands. Had ignite memories in that pile of awesome. Played Geth's Grimoire followed by Wheel of Fortune. Drew 27 cards and at that point offered to concede.
The table said no, we want to see this nonsense, so I proceeded to grow the storm count and show them that by storm 30 or so that I'd just Temporal Fissure them or Ignite Memories, or Molten Psyche, etc them out. At that point everyone scooped.
My favorite card in the set so far. Wizards is really winning me over.
Btw another easy win tonight. Flash is OP. Flashed in Melek in off a Leyline with a juicy graveyard (2 wheels already), untapped with 7 mana and went Mystical Tutor for 2x Turnabout, flipped into Increasing Vengeance, Mystic Retrieval 2x copied into Mana Geyser for about 20 mana and Mystical Tutor, Geyser and Turnabout. Tutor into Past in Flames, then Molten Psyche 3x with the Flashbacked Increasing Vengeance, responded to with Wheel of Fortune. About 60 to everyone.
Lesson learned for opponents? Tap out and get owned.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I'm 90% sure this doesn't interact. While Mind's Desire does have that wording, you're still casting it from exile... I will need to look into that.
Yeah, that's just how they used to word these things. Here's the Oracle wording:
The "as though it's in your hand" was simply explaining that you could still cast spells, since it was a bit of an uncommon mechanic back then.
You can pitch it to rulings if you want, but the Oracle text clarifies a large amount.
===
New FOF is definitely going in my deck. It may be 'fixed,' but there's still one choice on you, and one on them. If piles are being split right, it likely shouldn't matter. The only time it matters is when you need a specific card, then your opponent can ditch that one.
Either way, this is a 5 card dig, and going to hand, or going to grave, who cares? We love it. Or at least, I love it.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I was going to comment on that myself. Between that, the new Heroic creatures and other creatures recently printed, have we finally hit the critical mass of creatures needed to make a creature-based version of the deck?
Adding a third color may be required (green gives us better targeted pump, white better heroic creatures), but it could be a fun variant of the deck for anyone that's tired of the storm game.
Mine too. There's going to be situations where this is better than FoF since you can make the piles more synergystic if you don't need a specific card, for example putting Islands with blue cards and mountains with red cards instead of the other way around like your opponent would have done. Once you involve Past in Flames this is pretty much draw 5 cards for 4 mana which is pretty sweet.
Also I don't know about you guys but there's so much black weenie recursion in my meta that the new 3 mana mass exiling burn spell could make my deck. I kind of worry about my opponents' sac outlets stopping the exile effect but that would deal with a lot of Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts and the like.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Blighted Agent is too easy to kill IMO. No protection, goes down as collateral damage to any wrath. I much prefer Inkmoth Nexus or Faerie Conclave and/or an Expedition Map to lay down some beats if necessary. His value DOES increase with the amount of flash enablers we play in Melek (flash him in, play+equip pike and swing for the kill) but without them (or the pike!) I basically consider him a dead card that does nothing on his own, which really describes the kinds of cards I hate playing with.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
What did you get to?
Nekusar isn't quite the Zap General Sonik was wanting, but I like him better than Niv-Mizzet since he does damage off of my opponents' draws, rather than my own. Turning all Wheel effects into Molten Psyche doesn't really need any explanation as to how good it can be in a multiplayer setting, and I think this ability, coupled with the sheer power of some of the cards you gain access to make it worth adding the third color.
Here's a very rough list to go with as a starting point, based on some of the more recent builds posted here.
1 Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Wheels
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Time Spiral
1 Whispering Madness
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Windfall
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Memory Jar
Other Draw
1 Steam Augury
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Oona's Grace
1 Frantic Search
1 Cerebral Vortex
1 Plagiarize
1 Notion Thief
1 Night's Whisper
1 Read the Bones
1 Deep Analysis
Disruption/Removal
1 Meekstone
1 Torpor Orb
1 Arena of the Ancients
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Pongify
1 Snap
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Chaos Warp
1 Remand
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Rituals and Cost Reducers
1 Turnabout
1 Skirge Familiar
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Mana Geyser
1 Mana Flare
1 Goblin Electromancer
1 Nightscape Familiar
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Arcane Melee
1 Dream Halls
Big Plays and Recursion
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Past in Flames
1 Recall
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Call to Mind
1 Molten Psyche
1 Guttersnipe
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Reiterate
1 Mind's Desire
1 Epic Experiment
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Coalition Relic
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sol Ring
1 Walking Atlas
1 Izzet Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Izzet Cluestone
1 Dimir Cluestone
35 Lands
As I said, it's a very rough base, I'm sure there's choices in here that may prove inferior to other options, but I wanted to post a base to launch discussion from.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Flashback package: Faithless Looting, Flash of Insight, Forbidden Alchemy, Increasing Ambition, Mystical Teachings, Seize the Day and Recoup are all options to include beyond what is already present. Add in Quiet Speculation and Runic Repetition for added fun to with the flashback cards.
Creature Additions: Cards like Anger and Hammer of Purphoros for haste for Jace's Archivist, Magus of the Jar, and Nin, Pain Artist, as well as others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Would probably want to add in some equipment as well if going this route.
I'm sure overnight I'll think of other options to try out as well, since I tend to like oddball stuff (I play Dream Cache in my budget Melek list, for example). I just wanted to float some ideas to generate conversation again over my favorite deck archetype.
Also, off topic slightly Bob, but your Lazav thread has convinced me that if you tried to play a Dimir Spellslinger deck he's probably the way to go.
Melek was good to me and I'll definitely build him again someday but it's getting to be time to move on, old buddy
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Also, since it's now going to be widely available thanks to the Commander 2013 decks, what do people think of Strategic Planning? It does dig for 1 less than Impulse, but it also puts all three cards in places where we can more readily abuse them. I'm definitely planning on giving it a shot once I get the deck with it.
It's going to be a balancing act between d7's and getting our general on the board to stay there while we spellsling.
trancekat here has referred me over to this thread. I love the concept of spellslinging, and would like to hear if you guys have any opinions on what you think the most optimal build for Nekusar would be.
I currently have an active thread with lots of ideas pouring in, and it's hard to filter the strong and weak ideas because all of them sound so good. In the end, I'm not sure if going pure punisher is the correct way to build the deck, so I'd like to ask for your expertise and opinions on the archetype!
EDIT:
Also, a big fan of your preliminary list, HydraTMD. It definitely looks a lot more steady than what I have going on in my list. I feel like I have had too many opinions pull me in too many different directions. The real goal of the deck is just to basically have a Grixis Wheel deck, with pain being one of the routes to victory. If spellslinging storm is the more optimal way to go, with Nekusar being an added benefit, I'm totally okay with that too.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I'm sure everyone here feels your pain on being pulled in too many directions, as most of us here have gone through a ton of different incarnations of our Spellslinger decks, as there's a lot of different ways to build it. Over the past several months though, we all seemed to converge on the WheelStorm builds being best, which is why I posted my theory deck here rather than your thread, it's not that far off conceptually from what many of us are already running.
Nekusar, to me, is a general that just wants to reward you for doing stuff, much like T&L. You can overload on punisher style effects, but I feel like they just clutter your hand and do nothing of any real interest on their own. Wheeling into 5 mana, Megrim, and Underworld Dreams just feels like a sure way to be an unhappy camper. Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner have proven to be very effective finishers, and now they come with a general that helps them win without needing to enter the red zone to do it.
Another advantage of starting from here is the fact that this style deck has had the better part of two years worth of testing from a lot of different people, allowing us to very easily dismiss a lot of the "cute" cards as having already been tried in the past by someone. Having a well-established shell pre-existing should make testing new ideas relatively simple.
Now that said, one thing I'm thinking might need adjusting from my initial list is the inclusion of cards like Scroll Rack, Brainstorm, Dream Cache, and Conch Horn (okay, maybe not the last two) to put back Wheel effects to insure that we are properly chaining them together. Something like Cruel Tutor may even have a place for that same reason. Sadly I've been too busy to do any testing (newborn in the house), but that seems like a change that should be looked into.
Here's my first draft of our Grixis friend - Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I don't have much opportunity to test, but fortunately, this is kind of a spellsinging build similar to my Nin Storm build, so I play with myself basically (!phrasing!)
I will find a spot for "Waste Not" once it's available. Also considering Wheel and Deal
1 Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Flash Enablers
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Leyline of Anticipation
Ramp
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Walking Atlas
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Flare
1 Mana Geyser
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Izzet Signet Haunted Fengraf
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Coalition Relic
1 Arcane Melee
1 Dream Halls
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Stone Calendar
Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition
Draw
1 Notion Thief
1 Night's Whisper
1 Brainstorm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Opportunity
1 Foresee
1 Frantic Search
1 Meditate
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Preordain
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
1 Faithless Looting
1 Steam Augury
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
WinCons
1 Tainted Strike
1 Mind's Desire
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Ignite Memories
1 Molten Psyche
Yard Shenanigans
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Call to Mind
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Recall
1 Past in Flames
Protection
1 Capsize
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Remand
1 Torpor Orb
1 Meekstone
1 Chaos Warp
Other
1 Library of Leng
1 Epic Experiment
1 Increasing Vengeance
Land
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Underground Sea
1 Blood Crypt
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Swamp
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Watery Grave
1 Badlands
9 Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mountain
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Great Furnace
1 Terrain Generator
1 Winding Canyons
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Volcanic Island
1 Command Tower