Been trying to convince my more casual EDH circle to let me play Arcum Dagsson (they've seen this primer and they know I play him competitively and so they're highly scared of him) so I can test out potential mana denial silver bullets like Winter Orb, Static Orb, and Ward of Bones.
In a combo meta those cards barely help, but I'm thinking in a heavy control/removal meta as usually seen in more casual circles (when people are playing, for example, lots of B, UB, BR, etc.) that it could be a real help, since there's no artifact that directly "hoses" them like Torpor Orb hoses Curio shenanigans, Ensnaring Bridge hoses big aggro, and so forth.
I encourage anyone with experience in this regard to share their thoughts.
I'd also just like to add that a few days ago I along with 4 others hosted a competitive EDH tournament (though many casual players showed up as well). We started off doing 8 4-man pods, and the best players from those pods advanced to a double elimination bracket (meaning if you lose twice you were eliminated).
I faced off againt the other heavy-hitter combo decks in the format, like Azami and Sharuum and Zur, and won the tournament.
Im so glad I finally see a arcum daggson primer! I liked it a lot.
A few questions:
In what situations is myr moonvessel good? Is it better than cathodion or su-chi?
Do you think epochrasite is superior to myr sire?
there are a few artifact creatures that add mana that you don't play and artifacts that transform into creatures (guardian idol, alloy myr) do you think they are unnecesary?
why you don't run the pili-palagrand architect combo?
You also don't run the teferi, mage of zhalfirknowledge pool combo, is it because you don't wanna dilute your main wincons?
I think thats all and again, great primer!
Today's banlist has legalized Staff of Domination. It's technically redundant in the main Rings/Monolith combo, letting you draw your deck just like Top. But it does so many other things that there's got to be more ways to break this thing in half.
I play a slightly watered down version of Arcum, so I dont lose friends and staff is definitely going to be tested. Not sure if I will put it in my competitive build.
Im so glad I finally see a arcum daggson primer! I liked it a lot.
A few questions:
In what situations is myr moonvessel good? Is it better than cathodion or su-chi?
Do you think epochrasite is superior to myr sire?
there are a few artifact creatures that add mana that you don't play and artifacts that transform into creatures (guardian idol, alloy myr) do you think they are unnecesary?
why you don't run the pili-palagrand architect combo?
You also don't run the teferi, mage of zhalfirknowledge pool combo, is it because you don't wanna dilute your main wincons?
I think thats all and again, great primer!
Glad you liked the primer! I'll answer all your questions in order.
1. I get the most mileage out of Myr Moonvessel in two situations. Firstly, there's activate Arcum, sacrifice Moonvessel for Swiftfoot Boots, use the mana to pay the equip cost. Swiftfoot Boots is almost always better to have than Lightning Greaves because of effects like Thousand-Year Elixir and our Clock of Omens/Mycosynth Lattice wincon, but often you'll be tapping out on the turn you play Arcum so you won't have the 1 to equip them that turn. The second scenario is during the combo turn using the Rings/Monolith/Top wincon, when you need 4 on the spot (2 to copy Arcum's tutoring ability and to fetch monolith/top, then 2 to generate infinite mana with rings/monolith), and since we try to win around T5-7 we're usually pretty scrunched for mana on our combo turn. Myr Moonvessel helps take the edge off just a little bit.
And yeah, he's way better than his bigger cousins like Su-Chi, because he only costs 1 and therefore fits within our curve, unlike Su-Chi and Cathodion who I'm not even sure I'd designate "dorks."
2. Tough call. Epochrasite helps megatons under a Possessed Portal lock in a way Myr Sire can't, but Myr Sire is "reusable" immediately upon death instead of 3 turns later. Ultimately I'd still stick with Epochrasite; reading the card might make you think he'll always come back too late to be useful, but really if you sac him on T2-T4 (when you should be starting to sac stuff) he comes back T5-7, which is right on schedule for when we're looking to win the game anyway.
3. Alloy Myr is pretty much strictly worse than Scuttlemutt, who I do run. Really though they're both sub-optimal...for 3cmc you should be getting something like Palladium Myr, but since this is singleton we take what we can get. "Totem" types like Guardian Idol are bad because you have to pay just to make them a creature, and as I described above, we're already taxed for mana enough just to combo off. Our dorks should be generating mana, not consuming it. If Guardian Idol were an artifact creature instead of an artifact that turns into a creature, he'd be perfect (just like Manakin).
4. Because Pili-Pala and Grand Architect don't do anything relevant to our game plan on their own, and we already have tons of better, faster ways to generate infinite mana. The key thing about combo pieces is that they have to always pull their weight even before you assemble the combo...like for example Top/Rings/Monolith are all great and useful even on their own.
5. Again, Teferi + pool don't pull their weight on their own. If you draw pool it's a completely dead draw. Plus we can't tutor for Teferi so we have better, faster ways to win anyway. Teferipool pretty much only pulls its weight as a combo when Teferi's your commander, since pool is so useless by itself and U doesn't tutor for creatures.
Regarding Staff of Domination, I always wondered myself why it was still banned. Sheldon pretty much accurately summarized my current thoughts on it in his comments on the unbanning:
Quote from Sheldon »
When Staff of Domination was banned, it was one of the most widespread and iconic combo cards in the format. Banning it sent a clear message that turn four wins weren’t the gameplay we wanted to see. These days there are plenty of scarier combo cards out there, and Staff of Domination has a valid role as a cool utility card. Neither of these would be enough their own, but together they provide solid reasons to unban the do-anything stick.
The main offender with the staff as I recall was Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, since he could very quickly (and reliably, as a commander) generate the critical amount of mana to go infinite with the staff, that is 5 from a single creature (tap creature to add 5+, spend 3 to untap the creature and 1 to untap the staff, profit 1, repeat). Also Metalworker in for example Karn, Silver Golem lists accomplished the same thing. Even when the staff was banned, today T4 wins are still well within the grasp of many decks, Arcum included, and now with the staff's unbanning, Rofellos and Metalworker are still banned anyway, so whoop-de-doo.
I wouldn't even go so far as to call it the "do-anything stick," at least certainly not in this deck. Its main drawback to us is that we don't care much for creatures, so the tap/untap creature stuff is useless to us, unlike Rofellos, who really cared about untapping creatures (namely, Rofellos himself) and thus broke it (same with Metalworker). If instead of its "untap/tap target creature" abilities it had "untap/tap target permanent" abilities, then we'd be talking money--but then it'd also probably still be banned.
It's good, I guess, for combo redundancy, but in my current list I feel there's already so much redundancy that I can't even see anything worth cutting. It's also unique, taking a quick look on gatherer, as being the most efficient artifact to turn infinite mana into infinite life...but unfortunately infinite life hardly matters in a competitive combo meta when everyone else is dealing infinite damage, forcing you to draw infinite cards, etc.
Most likely Ezuri, Renegade Leader and his Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania will get more milage out of Staff's unbanning than Arcum ever will, ironically. Without Metalworker, it's G, not U, who can make early creatures that generate 5+ mana to break the staff.
EDIT: Just remembered Rofellos was only banned as a commander. One more tally for Ezuri/Azusa/other big mana green decks enjoying Staff's unbanning.
What do you think of summoning station? it's like myr turbine on steroids, specially with possessed portal in play. Maybe the chance of it getting stuck in your hand is scary, there's a huge leap between 5 cmc and 7 cmc. What do you think?
edit: I read the card again and realized that the pincher token is not an artifact, disregard my post.
What do you think of summoning station? it's like myr turbine on steroids, specially with possessed portal in play. Maybe the chance of it getting stuck in your hand is scary, there's a huge leap between 5 cmc and 7 cmc. What do you think?
Well, I'll answer your question hypothetically so you can get an idea of my mindset when I'm playing/building Arcum.
If the token were an artifact (which, as you correctly noted, it is not), then I would run Summoning Station over Myr Turbine in a heartbeat.
Yeah, it's theoretically harder to hardcast than Turbine if it ends up in your hand, but in practice it isn't really, since we'd just use that turn's Arcum tutor to make up the difference in either case. Consider the two following scenarios:
T4: Draw Turbine (sadface); Land; Arcum tutor for Gilded Lotus; play Turbine; opponent's end step make a token
vs
T4: Draw Summoning Station (sadface); Land; Arcum tutor for Gilded Lotus; play Station; opponent's end step make a token.
But anyway as you noted the Pincher token is not an artifact so this is all moot. I was just offering my thoughts so you get a better idea of my mindset as I tune the deck.
So for all that bashing on Staff of Domination earlier, now I've been playtesting it a bit and I think it deserves a slot. Go figure. As it turns out it's not entirely redundant with the Rings/Monolith/Top combo because as I mentioned in the primer that combo can only be performed at sorcery speed (since you have to hardcast and resolve top every time). Before, if you wanted an instant speed engine, you needed to go the Clock of Omens route. But now with Staff if you want an instant speed engine you just fetch staff instead of top and combo off at instant speed with Rings/Monolith/Staff instead. Duh.
And the "3: Untap creature" ability isn't entire jank, either; it kinda makes it a mini-Elixir of Immortality. Point being it's not an entirely dead draw pre-combo.
I'm almost tempted to say that the Rings/Monolith/Top combo mind as well be supplanted entirely by Rings/Monolith/Staff, but I won't go that far, since Sensei's Divining Top, as a 1-mana artifact, is a lot easier to tutor for with Tezzy, Trinket Mage, etc., plus we're going to run top as part of the mainlist anyway because it's about as central to EDH decks overall as Sol Ring is.
Thus the time has come once again to start reevaluating the strength of each and every one of my cards to see what to cut.
Master Transmuter. I love the card. She's hot, her ability's sick, I wrote at length about her in the primer. In my text I said that the main reason she's good is because she's an Arcum for the hand and we can tutor for her in the event of a tuck. Thing is (as I've concluded from playtesting), why would we tutor for Master Transmuter when we could just tutor for Planar Portal and get Arcum back? Or tutor directly for engine pieces and win the game? Or tutor for Null Brooch with Arcum in response to the tuck effect in the first place?
Neurok Stealthsuit. Thinkin' I'll 'board it. Usually it's just a worse lightning greaves. Only against heavy removal matchups does it shine, in scenarios where you just can't manage to land the greaves on Arcum because he keeps getting [CARD]Doom Blade[CARD]d in response.
Planar Portal. God I hate this card. It does so little for us the vast majority of the time, since usually when we use it it's when we're going infinite anyway, at which point Staff of Domination does the same thing for lower cmc. I'm more on the fence about this one, though, because it really does remain the best thing out there for tucks (in response to Terminus, I tap Arcum to fetch Planar Portal. Opponent's end step, I activate portal's ability and search my deck for Arcum, so much for that tuck). But in that case I'd probably be better off just tutoring out Null Brooch and countering the Terminus, so maybe it isn't the "best thing" after all.
Tentative changes I'm thinking
Transmuter out, Myr Sire in (to keep the # of creatures constant, I like the # I'm at now)
Stealthsuit SB, Staff of Domination in Planar Portal out, Null Brooch in (from SB)
Anyway some parts of the primer will need rewriting after these changes, so that means ugh, I probably won't make them until the weekend, because I'm so busy this week that I'll certainly have no time to edit the primer.
I assume you're imagining a wonderful scenario wherein you have 3 dorks on the field and an Arcum Dagsson equipped with Thornbite Staff, and you pop all three creatures on the same turn to tutor up your gamewinning Monolith/Staff/Rings combo and win on the spot?
It sounds enticing in theory, but in practice the 2 cmc + 4 equip cost is prohibitive. It competes with dorks in terms of its cmc, and by the time we'd have 4 to pitch on an equip cost, we'll have won the game anyway or come close enough to it that its potential for chain-tutoring is largely wasted.
If Arcum Dagsson were a shaman, then I'm sure it'd be a core card because you'd have the potential to circumvent the equip cost just like every Azami, Lady of Scrolls list runs Diviner's Wand because she can gain the tribal benefits.
It is with a heavy heart that I announce that Staff has supplanted Top in our combo, since it's been Rings/Monolith/Top for years and I'm a nostalgic kind of guy. The good news is, we're definitely not cutting Top since it's so good on its own--so now we just get to run both.
Great primer! This is one of my favorite decks, but my group doesn't let me bring it out a whole lot because it's just too powerful. Anyways, thought I'd stop by and share an alter I recently had done.
Great primer! This is one of my favorite decks, but my group doesn't let me bring it out a whole lot because it's just too powerful.
The problem with making any primer for a competitive commander is that your thread will never be as active as those threads for more generally appealing commanders for the very reason that so many playgroups social-hate on Arcum and others like him.
Still, it means very much to me that the people who DO play Arcum still find the primer helpful.
If possible I'd look around for a competitive playgroup you can play in once in a while. It's a whole different experience (and a great way to master the deck) playing Arcum toe-to-toe against other competitive decks rather than shooting fish in a barrel against unprepared opponents.
Anyways, thought I'd stop by and share an alter I recently had done.
After taking the first half of my final exams these last six hours, that just made my day.
The problem with making any primer for a competitive commander is that your thread will never be as active as those threads for more generally appealing commanders for the very reason that so many playgroups social-hate on Arcum and others like him.
Still, it means very much to me that the people who DO play Arcum still find the primer helpful.
If possible I'd look around for a competitive playgroup you can play in once in a while. It's a whole different experience (and a great way to master the deck) playing Arcum toe-to-toe against other competitive decks rather than shooting fish in a barrel against unprepared opponents.
After taking the first half of my final exams these last six hours, that just made my day.
I can't say I blame them. I've played the deck three times and won very quickly all three times. Luckily our playgroup is getting better and better, and the meta may shift enough for them to allow Arcum to play. I've thought about bringing him to a more competitive setting, but EDH(commander) is my time to unwind with friends. If I want to play competitive magic I'll hit up some local legacy or a nearby open. That being said, if I did play competitively, Arcum would be my choice.
Hi, I found another backup wincon that might suit this deck. It assumes the infinite mana engine on table and involve Spine of Ish Sah and Grinding Station. It's less effective than your combo (darksteel + lattice + Disk) because it requires infinite mana and Spine hard cast, but it's a backup combo and supposed to be played only if something got really wrong (Return to dust, jester cap, etc.)
Hope it's useful to someone
I'm relatively new to EDH (but not to Magic), and as one of my first generals, I have to say that my experience with Arcum has been something of the opposite.....that if I won, it was because I got lucky and the 2-4 others at the table didn't kill him during the 2-5 untap steps I needed to activate him. I wouldn't really say the other decks in my meta are competitive (i.e. degenerate) but most of them are blue-based goodstuff lists, and they simply took turns countering Arcum until I was dead. Even in the matchups without heavy counters, it took a long time (turn 5-6+) to resolve Arcum with something that gave him shroud/hexproof, longer still if I had to hold up my own counters to deal with instant speed removal.
I won't bother posting my list, as it's pretty much the same as the primer - just neutered in that I don't own a Grim Monolith, Memory Jar or any of the lands that produce more than 1 mana without sacrificing. We also don't partial paris.
I'm not saying he's bad or anything - just that in my experience he doesn't seem that hard to contain, or very overpowered, considering that in the time it takes to resolve Arcum with a creature to sac, setting up a win a few turns later, other decks can straight up kill the table on the spot - i.e. Azami, Hermit Druid, etc.
tl;dr - I've never felt that playing Arcum against less competitive decks was like shooting fish in a barrel.
Arcum is a general that gather a lot of aggro from other players, mostly because if left unchecked he can easily close the game in a couple of turns. When I first started to play it, my friends had few countermeasures in their decks and I easily won many games, then they started to adapt and cards like Return to Dust and many other removal and tuck began to appear and Arcum work become a lot harder. Still he's a general that in a couple of turns can win a match...
I'm relatively new to EDH (but not to Magic), and as one of my first generals, I have to say that my experience with Arcum has been something of the opposite.....that if I won, it was because I got lucky and the 2-4 others at the table didn't kill him during the 2-5 untap steps I needed to activate him. I wouldn't really say the other decks in my meta are competitive (i.e. degenerate) but most of them are blue-based goodstuff lists, and they simply took turns countering Arcum until I was dead. Even in the matchups without heavy counters, it took a long time (turn 5-6+) to resolve Arcum with something that gave him shroud/hexproof, longer still if I had to hold up my own counters to deal with instant speed removal.
I won't bother posting my list, as it's pretty much the same as the primer - just neutered in that I don't own a Grim Monolith, Memory Jar or any of the lands that produce more than 1 mana without sacrificing. We also don't partial paris.
I'm not saying he's bad or anything - just that in my experience he doesn't seem that hard to contain, or very overpowered, considering that in the time it takes to resolve Arcum with a creature to sac, setting up a win a few turns later, other decks can straight up kill the table on the spot - i.e. Azami, Hermit Druid, etc.
tl;dr - I've never felt that playing Arcum against less competitive decks was like shooting fish in a barrel.
I've recently been experimenting with a deck that uses Kozilek as the general. The idea is that you ramp into him and use an early Kozilek as pressure and card advantage. But the deck's basic strategy involves Partial Paris mulliganing all cards that aren't lands and mana rocks so you can get Kozilek out early. It works pretty well, but there is one problem. My group doesn't Partial mulligan either. I think decks with super linear strategies really like Partial mulligans. I think they like them so much that they cant exist without them.
I've never played Arcum, but I imagine that he partial mulligans anything that isn't helpful early. I also imagine that having your super expensive combo pieces in hand really sucks. I bet you would have better results with Partial Mulligans.
This is getting down to very specific situations for inclusion, but have you considered including Shimmer Myr in your deck?
The situation is thus -- you've got your engine out to draw your deck and need a counterspell, but you're tapped out of blue mana. Maybe you already had to burn a counterspell, or just had to burn it all in order to start running the infinite colorless + draw. The stack hasn't completely resolved yet, so you're still in the draw and can't play stuff that would normally give you the blue you need, like Clock of Omens or whatever.
With Shimmer Myr, you can ensure you'll always have the blue mana you'll need without ever having to unwind the stack. You can draw into Shimmer Myr, drop it with flash, draw into your Lotus Petal, drop it with flash, sacrifice it for blue, draw into your Elixir of Immortality, drop it with flash, sac for recursion, and then repeat the loop -- giving you as much blue mana as you'll need, all at instant speed.
I'm not sure if the situation where it's needed would ever come up, but this would also let you counter an arbitrary number of spells using the same process. Well, I guess spell crumble lets you do that already, but you can counter an arbitrary number of activated abilities this way as well (such as another Null Brooch) by including Stifle.
I wouldn't really say the other decks in my meta are competitive (i.e. degenerate) but most of them are blue-based goodstuff lists, and they simply took turns countering Arcum until I was dead. Even in the matchups without heavy counters, it took a long time (turn 5-6+) to resolve Arcum with something that gave him shroud/hexproof, longer still if I had to hold up my own counters to deal with instant speed removal.
I won't bother posting my list, as it's pretty much the same as the primer - just neutered in that I don't own a Grim Monolith, Memory Jar or any of the lands that produce more than 1 mana without sacrificing.
Consider proxying the fast mana lands and rocks you're not running if your playgroup will allow it. They really are critical to our success. If you can power out Arcum on t2 when your opponents are all tapped out, that's almost as good as casting him with haste. I think it'll make an observable difference.
Additionally, if you're really having trouble sticking Arcum, you should start considering other ways to win without even playing Arcum. Remember that he's just a repeatable tutor, not a combo piece like Sharuum or Azami. You can devote your resources instead to tutoring out Rings/Basalt/Staff via other means.
in the time it takes to resolve Arcum with a creature to sac, setting up a win a few turns later, other decks can straight up kill the table on the spot - i.e. Azami, Hermit Druid, etc.
All that said, at the end of the day, if you're at a bigger table, and you're getting focused by all the players, and they're actually running countermagic and other reasonably good cards, ANY competitive deck--even Azami and even moreso the overhyped Hermit Druid--folds out. If your opponents are actually ganging up on you so hard with countermagic and removal that you're basically playing against a flipped Erayo, Soratami Ascendant plus Smokestack from turn 1, no deck can stand against that.
Hi, I found another backup wincon that might suit this deck. It assumes the infinite mana engine on table and involve Spine of Ish Sah and Grinding Station. It's less effective than your combo (darksteel + lattice + Disk) because it requires infinite mana and Spine hard cast, but it's a backup combo and supposed to be played only if something got really wrong (Return to dust, jester cap, etc.)
Hope it's useful to someone
That's a quirky and neat little combo, and like you said I think it's good to keep in mind for redundancy.
I wouldn't run it as part of the mainboard list, though, because Grinding Station is utterly useless on its own, and as I mentioned a central tenet of my deck is that all the combo pieces have to pull their weight as great cards even on their own so nothing is ever a dead draw. Additionally, it's a mill wincon, which as a genre are pretty weak overall, since they bank on your opponents not running any Eldrazi gods or Gaea's Blessing, or for GY combo decks like Hermit Druid it actually helps them.
I've never played Arcum, but I imagine that he partial mulligans anything that isn't helpful early. I also imagine that having your super expensive combo pieces in hand really sucks. I bet you would have better results with Partial Mulligans.
My playgroup doesn't play partial paris, either. We play regular mulligan style, but we get 1 freebie, which is to say instead of mulling directly to 6, your first mull you get to draw a new hand of 7 full cards.
That said, partial paris really lets us sculpt our opening hand, which is especially great since we're a combo deck--it's also why my playgroup doesn't really like partial paris.
I agree, XeroxedFool: if partial paris were allowed in my playgroup, I'd mull away the fat combo pieces like Possessed Portal in favor of an explosive opening hand that lets me drop and tap Arcum before T3, because that's all the tempo I need to win by T5.
The situation is thus -- you've got your engine out to draw your deck and need a counterspell, but you're tapped out of blue mana. Maybe you already had to burn a counterspell, or just had to burn it all in order to start running the infinite colorless + draw. The stack hasn't completely resolved yet, so you're still in the draw and can't play stuff that would normally give you the blue you need, like Clock of Omens or whatever.
I'm not sure I follow what the problem is in your scenario. If my infinite colorless + draw is already established, I can draw my deck and all the countermagic I'd need at instant speed, which means if they cast any disruption besides Krosan Grip I can just keep on drawing in response, and if I don't have any U on hand I'll just play Force of Will or Pact of Negation.
With Shimmer Myr, you can ensure you'll always have the blue mana you'll need without ever having to unwind the stack. You can draw into Shimmer Myr, drop it with flash, draw into your Lotus Petal, drop it with flash, sacrifice it for blue, draw into your Elixir of Immortality, drop it with flash, sac for recursion, and then repeat the loop -- giving you as much blue mana as you'll need, all at instant speed.
That's neat, though, I never thought of using it that way with Elixir of Immortality. I was thinkin' just flash in Shimmer Myr, flash in Mycosynth Lattice, now the infinite colorless you used for the draw becomes infinite U.
You know, I've been debating the merits over the last few weeks of including Vedalken Orrery, because I didn't even know Shimmer Myr existed. Shimmer Myr might even be better than Orrery, though, if I do decide to include one of those cards mainboard or sideboard, since he's cheaper and doubles as a dork (and the additional "restriction" of only affecting artifacts isn't even a restriction in this deck).
Thanks a lot for your guys' input. More food for thought.
First off Congratulations on getting in the primer zone. I know I'm a little late just thought you should know I appreciate all the effort you put into the forum it has helped me TONS! I was hoping if I could get your input (TheTrueNub)? I'm new to this blogging stuff so you might have to bear with me. Some of my questions might be outdated. I've probably looked on every forum on Arcum and am glad you got the primer for it.
1. So anyways I read one of your blogs and you were talking about replacing Master Transmuter because you felt there was no point to search for her because you could search for Null Brooch instead to counter if in a case Arcum was tucked. Looking at the dates you reposted your decklist it seems you decided to keep her instead of replacing her for Myr Sire. What conclusion did you come up with or was it a typo?
2. You explained in your primer you don't run Mind Over Matter because it's too slow. In another forum of Arcum I read they were using it and a few other cards such as: Magus of the Future, Future Sight, and Cloud Key. The combo was basically use Divining Top and Etherium Sculptor and/or Cloud Key to play the deck. I'm sure they're too much mana and you can't search for all the combos and don't really need them considering our combo pieces. Just thought I'd get your professional input.
3. How do you feel about the land Buried Ruin? Some feel it's better than Academy Ruins because you don't potentially have to wait a turn to get the card you need and with crucible it's a nice combo.
4. Svyelunite Temple. I don't know how to feel about this card maybe I'm reading it wrong. It comes into play tapped and you can sacrifice it for 2U or tap it for a U. I just don't see how you can accelerate faster with this card. Help!
5. Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel. I'm sure it's a dumb question but what do we like to target with these cards? It seems like over kill to me can you explain further just so I feel better running them.
6. Shimmer Myr. Did you decide if you wanted to main board it? Still testing it out? I've been wondering about this card as well.
7. Your running Strip Mine, but not Wasteland. Is all because you need that blue mana?
8. Run Timetwister or Windfall if you don't have it. Why not both? You could cut Thirst for Knowledge or do you feel Windfall isn't as good? What about Intuition or Frantic Search? How do you feel about those cards?
9. What's your take on Capsize? It can end up being costly, but the buyback might help in late game.
10. Artificer's Intuition? Is the card disadvantage too steep? Is the search for only artifacts for 1 converted mana cost not worth it for us?
Sorry for the LONG post. I'd appreciate your input. I like the mostly myr theme to the deck and how Arcum and the snow lands are from the same set. Heck I just love artifacts. I can't wait till they unban Metalworker. I wonder if he'd work in this deck and/or Tolarian Academy. Maybe if that happens we'd make it even more a artifact theme by adding more stuff like darksteel citadel or mox opal. Fat chance I'm sure. Just wishful thinking is all.
i'm still lost on how Turbine + Clock of Omens is infinite untaps.
By themselves, Turbine + Clock don't make anything infinite. The real combo is Mycosynth Lattice + Clock of Omens + [a critical mass of permanents (which become artifacts due to Lattice)], then using those critical mass of permanents and Arcum Dagsson to tutor out infinite mana + draw pieces.
The point is that Clock + Turbine allows you to pump out the critical mass of permanents really, really quickly, like within the same turn Clock comes out, since the artifact tokens can be tapped to untap Turbine to produce more artifact tokens. And since Myr Turbine is generally the first thing you tutor with Arcum anyway, it fits fluidly with the overall gameplan.
Please let me know if this explanation wasn't clear.
First off Congratulations on getting in the primer zone. I know I'm a little late just thought you should know I appreciate all the effort you put into the forum it has helped me TONS! I was hoping if I could get your input (TheTrueNub)? I'm new to this blogging stuff so you might have to bear with me. Some of my questions might be outdated. I've probably looked on every forum on Arcum and am glad you got the primer for it.
Thanks for your support! I know Arcum's a commander that's been around a long time, and it pleases me greatly to hear that my primer's still a central resource despite all the other decklists out there.
1. So anyways I read one of your blogs and you were talking about replacing Master Transmuter because you felt there was no point to search for her because you could search for Null Brooch instead to counter if in a case Arcum was tucked. Looking at the dates you reposted your decklist it seems you decided to keep her instead of replacing her for Myr Sire. What conclusion did you come up with or was it a typo?
It's no typo. I kept Master Transmuter in on purpose.
I'm constantly changing my mind about her--it seems like every month I think of her differently--but my current stance on the matter is that she offers a unique and exceedingly powerful ability that rivals even Arcum's himself for those days when you just can't stick the old man. Her highly-colorless cost of 3U redeems her even if she's just used as a dork that game, as opposed to a cost like 2UU which would be much harder to manage in the early game.
This is just my current feelings at 9:00 PM on a Sunday. Like I said, I've been on the fence about her for a long time and I still am. Whenever I change my mind, though, I always post my thoughts here, and I always keep a record of my changes in the changelog so you can follow along.
2. You explained in your primer you don't run Mind Over Matter because it's too slow. In another forum of Arcum I read they were using it and a few other cards such as: Magus of the Future, Future Sight, and Cloud Key. The combo was basically use Divining Top and Etherium Sculptor and/or Cloud Key to play the deck. I'm sure they're too much mana and you can't search for all the combos and don't really need them considering our combo pieces. Just thought I'd get your professional input.
As I addressed in the primer, I don't really like this combo, because Future Sight/Magus of the Future are both A) impossible to tutor for since we run no creature or enchantment tutors and B) kinda clunky for our streamlined curve.
Mind Over Matter is a separate issue. It's a great card in this deck (not as good as it is in Azami, Lady of Scrolls, granted, but still great) and some Arcum lists that have an overall higher curve will use it, but my list is too streamlined for a 6cmc card that can't be tutored for and doesn't directly say "you win the game."
3. How do you feel about the land Buried Ruin? Some feel it's better than Academy Ruins because you don't potentially have to wait a turn to get the card you need and with crucible it's a nice combo.
Another one of those cards I'm on the fence about. I may very well end up running both Buried Ruin and Academy Ruins.
In my general experience, though, if it's an artifact that's really worth fishing out of your grave, it's a fat combo piece like Darksteel Forge, at which point you'd rather use Academy Ruins to get it back into the library where Arcum can fetch it for free rather than use Buried Ruin to bring it back to the hand where you'd have to hardcast it.
4. Svyelunite Temple. I don't know how to feel about this card maybe I'm reading it wrong. It comes into play tapped and you can sacrifice it for 2U or tap it for a U. I just don't see how you can accelerate faster with this card. Help!
I don't think I understand your question. It works the same way Crystal Vein does, only that it provides colored mana and doesn't work the turn it comes into play, which isn't even a drawback if you play it early.
Thus Svyelunite Temple allows you to ramp into 4 mana on T3. Granted, you're set back for future turns since you just sacced a land--but that hardly matters, since once Arcum's secured on the field, you don't really need more than 4 mana anyway since you won't actually be casting much besides countermagic, maybe a mana rock or silver bullet here and there.
5. Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel. I'm sure it's a dumb question but what do we like to target with these cards? It seems like over kill to me can you explain further just so I feel better running them.
What DON'T we like to target with these cards? Don't forget Phyrexian Metamorph, too, though he's usually better utilized as a commander-killer.
Double up on Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb, or any other silver bullet to add redundancy to your prison (in case one gets removed).
Honestly it'd be harder for me to come up with a list of artifacts that wouldn't be good to copy.
6. Shimmer Myr. Did you decide if you wanted to main board it? Still testing it out? I've been wondering about this card as well.
Still testing. I'm not convinced enough yet to say that it's worth running mainboard. We have several instant-speed wincons already, particularly now that Staff of Domination was unbanned, so I'm still evaluating whether it pulls its weight on its own (which, as I said in the primer, is the core concept behind every card in this deck).
7. Your running Strip Mine, but not Wasteland. Is all because you need that blue mana?
With all the rocks people run in EDH, especially competitive EDH, I repeatedly find that a single strip/waste effect doesn't really do much to change the tide of the game. Where they really hurt is when they're combo'd with Crucible of Worlds. When you consider them solely for that purpose, Strip Mine is, obviously, strictly better than Wasteland.
8. Run Timetwister or Windfall if you don't have it. Why not both? You could cut Thirst for Knowledge or do you feel Windfall isn't as good? What about Intuition or Frantic Search? How do you feel about those cards?
I prefer Thirst for Knowledge over Windfall. Instant speed draw 3 for 3 mana? C'mon son, in a competitive meta that's a way more viable option than Windfalling at sorcery speed and passing the turn while the rest of your group gets to take advantage of their new hand of cards before you do (not to mention that Windfall has the potential to draw you little to nothing if everyone is goldfishing.
Intuition is tutor more than draw, and it works best in decks that play their graveyard like their hand (such that it essentially tutors for 3 cards and your opponent's choice becomes irrelevant, like in 43lands.dec in Legacy). We have better options for tutors and we're not quite that friendly with our GY.
Frantic Search, now that's worth considering. At a glance I'd say Thirst looks better, but I can't say that as confidently as I could with the other ones you mentioned. I'll have to play around with it.
9. What's your take on Capsize? It can end up being costly, but the buyback might help in late game.
Bounce is weak. If you're going to use Capsize, you'd use it like Azami does--as a wincon once you've got infinite mana (bounce everything, everyone concedes).
If you feel like you need wincon redundancy because you find your opponents are running too many Sadistic Sacrament/Jester's Cap effects, adding Capsize effectively provides you a whole new avenue to win all by itself.
Personally I don't feel that's necessary for me and my playgroup, but it's clearly a metagame choice.
10. Artificer's Intuition? Is the card disadvantage too steep? Is the search for only artifacts for 1 converted mana cost not worth it for us?
Put simply, yes.
Sorry for the LONG post. I'd appreciate your input. I like the mostly myr theme to the deck and how Arcum and the snow lands are from the same set. Heck I just love artifacts. I can't wait till they unban Metalworker. I wonder if he'd work in this deck and/or Tolarian Academy. Maybe if that happens we'd make it even more a artifact theme by adding more stuff like darksteel citadel or mox opal. Fat chance I'm sure. Just wishful thinking is all.
I love long posts too, as you can tell, so don't apologize.
Thanks for the reply you've opened my eyes on a few things especially Academy Ruins and Thirst for Knowledge. I have quite a few more points I need convincing and would appreciate your help. I know Strip Mine is better than Wasteland, but you wouldn't run both right? Here are some note worthy cards I have in my mind for the deck that I'd appreciate some insight:
I like the Expedition Map because it helps us get ahold of Hall of the Bandit Lord giving Arcum haste. Although we'd only have one search method for a land besides Tolarian West I look at it like we have 3 Hall of the Bandit Lords in the deck, but with more versatility because we have options. If I did consider running Kuldotha it would be because I'm worried about Arcum becoming worthless when our combo pieces are out. I'd search for Master Transmuter and try to win the game with her leading if our combo pieces are removed from game and he helps find her at a steep price no doubt. I don't know about if I'd run one or the other or not run at all. I like the Vendalken because arcum can search for it, but I like the Shimmer Myr because it's cheaper and could be a dork for Arcum. I am curious about Cathodion because he's 3 mana like Scuttlemutt, but can give us 3 mana after we sack him or is haveing the one mana from Scuttlemutt to help cast Arcum better? I thought hard on Mimic Vat I might be reaching with this scenario. If arcum has haste and we get targeted with a destroy effect and don't want to lose him, but have no counter spells we could sac our dork and search for Mimic Vat and keep recurring Arcum with haste. I think Null Brooch is a steep price especially only one time effect before our turn again. I'm sure it's not a good idea because of all the exile stuff people run just thought I'd ask what you think and also if you don't like that option what about Chalice of the Void? Instead of losing your whole hand you just lose only a few spells possibly. We run Gilded Lotus which is 5 mana for 3 blue, but thran is 4 for 3 colorless. I know Gilded Lotus combos well with Filgree Sages with a Power Artifact on for infinite mana untap all artifacts. On it's own Filgree Sages is still a untap artifact effect we run several in this deck. If we do run Null Brooch and are willing to discard our hand maybe we might consider Lion's Eye Diamond. We could pump him out so quick but maybe too quick because we won't have a dork to sac. I've seen people run Lifeline in the situation we would use Null Brooch but thats only if its not a remove from game effect same with my Mimic vat scenario I don't know if it's worth it. I get targeted in my play group the most and this was FAR before I ever played Arcum. So naturally I became more of a control type player to buy me the time I needed to win. My only concern which I'm sure is a big one is surviving without Arcum. Lets say worst case scenario we do get jester's capped TWICE and we get those combo pieces out of our reach could we survive? I think we have a chance if Master transmuter and scarecrone was on the battlefield and myr turbine. Im just thinking out loud now. I see your running Torpor orb main board if that's in play trinket mage won't work should we take trinket mage out? and graffdigger's cage the only card we use that doesn't support this is scarecrone is it better to run this card all the time? If your always getting targeted what can you do to slow them down besides the possessed portal way? Although I run Arcum nothings changed in my playgroup I'm always the first one they try to eliminate.
I know thats a lot of rambling I hope you get my meaning.
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Thanks dawg.
Been trying to convince my more casual EDH circle to let me play Arcum Dagsson (they've seen this primer and they know I play him competitively and so they're highly scared of him) so I can test out potential mana denial silver bullets like Winter Orb, Static Orb, and Ward of Bones.
In a combo meta those cards barely help, but I'm thinking in a heavy control/removal meta as usually seen in more casual circles (when people are playing, for example, lots of B, UB, BR, etc.) that it could be a real help, since there's no artifact that directly "hoses" them like Torpor Orb hoses Curio shenanigans, Ensnaring Bridge hoses big aggro, and so forth.
I encourage anyone with experience in this regard to share their thoughts.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
I faced off againt the other heavy-hitter combo decks in the format, like Azami and Sharuum and Zur, and won the tournament.
Bracket results posted below:
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
A few questions:
In what situations is myr moonvessel good? Is it better than cathodion or su-chi?
Do you think epochrasite is superior to myr sire?
there are a few artifact creatures that add mana that you don't play and artifacts that transform into creatures (guardian idol, alloy myr) do you think they are unnecesary?
why you don't run the pili-pala grand architect combo?
You also don't run the teferi, mage of zhalfir knowledge pool combo, is it because you don't wanna dilute your main wincons?
I think thats all and again, great primer!
Glad you liked the primer! I'll answer all your questions in order.
1. I get the most mileage out of Myr Moonvessel in two situations. Firstly, there's activate Arcum, sacrifice Moonvessel for Swiftfoot Boots, use the mana to pay the equip cost. Swiftfoot Boots is almost always better to have than Lightning Greaves because of effects like Thousand-Year Elixir and our Clock of Omens/Mycosynth Lattice wincon, but often you'll be tapping out on the turn you play Arcum so you won't have the 1 to equip them that turn. The second scenario is during the combo turn using the Rings/Monolith/Top wincon, when you need 4 on the spot (2 to copy Arcum's tutoring ability and to fetch monolith/top, then 2 to generate infinite mana with rings/monolith), and since we try to win around T5-7 we're usually pretty scrunched for mana on our combo turn. Myr Moonvessel helps take the edge off just a little bit.
And yeah, he's way better than his bigger cousins like Su-Chi, because he only costs 1 and therefore fits within our curve, unlike Su-Chi and Cathodion who I'm not even sure I'd designate "dorks."
2. Tough call. Epochrasite helps megatons under a Possessed Portal lock in a way Myr Sire can't, but Myr Sire is "reusable" immediately upon death instead of 3 turns later. Ultimately I'd still stick with Epochrasite; reading the card might make you think he'll always come back too late to be useful, but really if you sac him on T2-T4 (when you should be starting to sac stuff) he comes back T5-7, which is right on schedule for when we're looking to win the game anyway.
3. Alloy Myr is pretty much strictly worse than Scuttlemutt, who I do run. Really though they're both sub-optimal...for 3cmc you should be getting something like Palladium Myr, but since this is singleton we take what we can get. "Totem" types like Guardian Idol are bad because you have to pay just to make them a creature, and as I described above, we're already taxed for mana enough just to combo off. Our dorks should be generating mana, not consuming it. If Guardian Idol were an artifact creature instead of an artifact that turns into a creature, he'd be perfect (just like Manakin).
4. Because Pili-Pala and Grand Architect don't do anything relevant to our game plan on their own, and we already have tons of better, faster ways to generate infinite mana. The key thing about combo pieces is that they have to always pull their weight even before you assemble the combo...like for example Top/Rings/Monolith are all great and useful even on their own.
5. Again, Teferi + pool don't pull their weight on their own. If you draw pool it's a completely dead draw. Plus we can't tutor for Teferi so we have better, faster ways to win anyway. Teferipool pretty much only pulls its weight as a combo when Teferi's your commander, since pool is so useless by itself and U doesn't tutor for creatures.
Regarding Staff of Domination, I always wondered myself why it was still banned. Sheldon pretty much accurately summarized my current thoughts on it in his comments on the unbanning:
The main offender with the staff as I recall was Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, since he could very quickly (and reliably, as a commander) generate the critical amount of mana to go infinite with the staff, that is 5 from a single creature (tap creature to add 5+, spend 3 to untap the creature and 1 to untap the staff, profit 1, repeat). Also Metalworker in for example Karn, Silver Golem lists accomplished the same thing. Even when the staff was banned, today T4 wins are still well within the grasp of many decks, Arcum included, and now with the staff's unbanning, Rofellos and Metalworker are still banned anyway, so whoop-de-doo.
I wouldn't even go so far as to call it the "do-anything stick," at least certainly not in this deck. Its main drawback to us is that we don't care much for creatures, so the tap/untap creature stuff is useless to us, unlike Rofellos, who really cared about untapping creatures (namely, Rofellos himself) and thus broke it (same with Metalworker). If instead of its "untap/tap target creature" abilities it had "untap/tap target permanent" abilities, then we'd be talking money--but then it'd also probably still be banned.
It's good, I guess, for combo redundancy, but in my current list I feel there's already so much redundancy that I can't even see anything worth cutting. It's also unique, taking a quick look on gatherer, as being the most efficient artifact to turn infinite mana into infinite life...but unfortunately infinite life hardly matters in a competitive combo meta when everyone else is dealing infinite damage, forcing you to draw infinite cards, etc.
Most likely Ezuri, Renegade Leader and his Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania will get more milage out of Staff's unbanning than Arcum ever will, ironically. Without Metalworker, it's G, not U, who can make early creatures that generate 5+ mana to break the staff.
EDIT: Just remembered Rofellos was only banned as a commander. One more tally for Ezuri/Azusa/other big mana green decks enjoying Staff's unbanning.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
edit: I read the card again and realized that the pincher token is not an artifact, disregard my post.
Well, I'll answer your question hypothetically so you can get an idea of my mindset when I'm playing/building Arcum.
If the token were an artifact (which, as you correctly noted, it is not), then I would run Summoning Station over Myr Turbine in a heartbeat.
Yeah, it's theoretically harder to hardcast than Turbine if it ends up in your hand, but in practice it isn't really, since we'd just use that turn's Arcum tutor to make up the difference in either case. Consider the two following scenarios:
T4: Draw Turbine (sadface); Land; Arcum tutor for Gilded Lotus; play Turbine; opponent's end step make a token
vs
T4: Draw Summoning Station (sadface); Land; Arcum tutor for Gilded Lotus; play Station; opponent's end step make a token.
But anyway as you noted the Pincher token is not an artifact so this is all moot. I was just offering my thoughts so you get a better idea of my mindset as I tune the deck.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
And the "3: Untap creature" ability isn't entire jank, either; it kinda makes it a mini-Elixir of Immortality. Point being it's not an entirely dead draw pre-combo.
I'm almost tempted to say that the Rings/Monolith/Top combo mind as well be supplanted entirely by Rings/Monolith/Staff, but I won't go that far, since Sensei's Divining Top, as a 1-mana artifact, is a lot easier to tutor for with Tezzy, Trinket Mage, etc., plus we're going to run top as part of the mainlist anyway because it's about as central to EDH decks overall as Sol Ring is.
Thus the time has come once again to start reevaluating the strength of each and every one of my cards to see what to cut.
Master Transmuter. I love the card. She's hot, her ability's sick, I wrote at length about her in the primer. In my text I said that the main reason she's good is because she's an Arcum for the hand and we can tutor for her in the event of a tuck. Thing is (as I've concluded from playtesting), why would we tutor for Master Transmuter when we could just tutor for Planar Portal and get Arcum back? Or tutor directly for engine pieces and win the game? Or tutor for Null Brooch with Arcum in response to the tuck effect in the first place?
Neurok Stealthsuit. Thinkin' I'll 'board it. Usually it's just a worse lightning greaves. Only against heavy removal matchups does it shine, in scenarios where you just can't manage to land the greaves on Arcum because he keeps getting [CARD]Doom Blade[CARD]d in response.
Planar Portal. God I hate this card. It does so little for us the vast majority of the time, since usually when we use it it's when we're going infinite anyway, at which point Staff of Domination does the same thing for lower cmc. I'm more on the fence about this one, though, because it really does remain the best thing out there for tucks (in response to Terminus, I tap Arcum to fetch Planar Portal. Opponent's end step, I activate portal's ability and search my deck for Arcum, so much for that tuck). But in that case I'd probably be better off just tutoring out Null Brooch and countering the Terminus, so maybe it isn't the "best thing" after all.
Tentative changes I'm thinking
Transmuter out, Myr Sire in (to keep the # of creatures constant, I like the # I'm at now)
Stealthsuit SB, Staff of Domination in
Planar Portal out, Null Brooch in (from SB)
Anyway some parts of the primer will need rewriting after these changes, so that means ugh, I probably won't make them until the weekend, because I'm so busy this week that I'll certainly have no time to edit the primer.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
EDH
GWSigarda, Host of EnchantressGW[Primer]
I assume you're imagining a wonderful scenario wherein you have 3 dorks on the field and an Arcum Dagsson equipped with Thornbite Staff, and you pop all three creatures on the same turn to tutor up your gamewinning Monolith/Staff/Rings combo and win on the spot?
It sounds enticing in theory, but in practice the 2 cmc + 4 equip cost is prohibitive. It competes with dorks in terms of its cmc, and by the time we'd have 4 to pitch on an equip cost, we'll have won the game anyway or come close enough to it that its potential for chain-tutoring is largely wasted.
If Arcum Dagsson were a shaman, then I'm sure it'd be a core card because you'd have the potential to circumvent the equip cost just like every Azami, Lady of Scrolls list runs Diviner's Wand because she can gain the tribal benefits.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
It is with a heavy heart that I announce that Staff has supplanted Top in our combo, since it's been Rings/Monolith/Top for years and I'm a nostalgic kind of guy. The good news is, we're definitely not cutting Top since it's so good on its own--so now we just get to run both.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
Legacy
UBWEsper StonebladUBW
RUGRUG DelverRUG
EDH
GUW Angus MackenzieGUW
RWGisela, Blade of GoldnightRW
UBWGRCromatUBWGR
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
UArcum DagssonU
The problem with making any primer for a competitive commander is that your thread will never be as active as those threads for more generally appealing commanders for the very reason that so many playgroups social-hate on Arcum and others like him.
Still, it means very much to me that the people who DO play Arcum still find the primer helpful.
If possible I'd look around for a competitive playgroup you can play in once in a while. It's a whole different experience (and a great way to master the deck) playing Arcum toe-to-toe against other competitive decks rather than shooting fish in a barrel against unprepared opponents.
After taking the first half of my final exams these last six hours, that just made my day.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
I can't say I blame them. I've played the deck three times and won very quickly all three times. Luckily our playgroup is getting better and better, and the meta may shift enough for them to allow Arcum to play. I've thought about bringing him to a more competitive setting, but EDH(commander) is my time to unwind with friends. If I want to play competitive magic I'll hit up some local legacy or a nearby open. That being said, if I did play competitively, Arcum would be my choice.
Legacy
UBWEsper StonebladUBW
RUGRUG DelverRUG
EDH
GUW Angus MackenzieGUW
RWGisela, Blade of GoldnightRW
UBWGRCromatUBWGR
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
UArcum DagssonU
Hope it's useful to someone
I won't bother posting my list, as it's pretty much the same as the primer - just neutered in that I don't own a Grim Monolith, Memory Jar or any of the lands that produce more than 1 mana without sacrificing. We also don't partial paris.
I'm not saying he's bad or anything - just that in my experience he doesn't seem that hard to contain, or very overpowered, considering that in the time it takes to resolve Arcum with a creature to sac, setting up a win a few turns later, other decks can straight up kill the table on the spot - i.e. Azami, Hermit Druid, etc.
tl;dr - I've never felt that playing Arcum against less competitive decks was like shooting fish in a barrel.
I've recently been experimenting with a deck that uses Kozilek as the general. The idea is that you ramp into him and use an early Kozilek as pressure and card advantage. But the deck's basic strategy involves Partial Paris mulliganing all cards that aren't lands and mana rocks so you can get Kozilek out early. It works pretty well, but there is one problem. My group doesn't Partial mulligan either. I think decks with super linear strategies really like Partial mulligans. I think they like them so much that they cant exist without them.
I've never played Arcum, but I imagine that he partial mulligans anything that isn't helpful early. I also imagine that having your super expensive combo pieces in hand really sucks. I bet you would have better results with Partial Mulligans.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
The situation is thus -- you've got your engine out to draw your deck and need a counterspell, but you're tapped out of blue mana. Maybe you already had to burn a counterspell, or just had to burn it all in order to start running the infinite colorless + draw. The stack hasn't completely resolved yet, so you're still in the draw and can't play stuff that would normally give you the blue you need, like Clock of Omens or whatever.
With Shimmer Myr, you can ensure you'll always have the blue mana you'll need without ever having to unwind the stack. You can draw into Shimmer Myr, drop it with flash, draw into your Lotus Petal, drop it with flash, sacrifice it for blue, draw into your Elixir of Immortality, drop it with flash, sac for recursion, and then repeat the loop -- giving you as much blue mana as you'll need, all at instant speed.
I'm not sure if the situation where it's needed would ever come up, but this would also let you counter an arbitrary number of spells using the same process. Well, I guess spell crumble lets you do that already, but you can counter an arbitrary number of activated abilities this way as well (such as another Null Brooch) by including Stifle.
GRW Mayael the Anima WRG
Consider proxying the fast mana lands and rocks you're not running if your playgroup will allow it. They really are critical to our success. If you can power out Arcum on t2 when your opponents are all tapped out, that's almost as good as casting him with haste. I think it'll make an observable difference.
Additionally, if you're really having trouble sticking Arcum, you should start considering other ways to win without even playing Arcum. Remember that he's just a repeatable tutor, not a combo piece like Sharuum or Azami. You can devote your resources instead to tutoring out Rings/Basalt/Staff via other means.
All that said, at the end of the day, if you're at a bigger table, and you're getting focused by all the players, and they're actually running countermagic and other reasonably good cards, ANY competitive deck--even Azami and even moreso the overhyped Hermit Druid--folds out. If your opponents are actually ganging up on you so hard with countermagic and removal that you're basically playing against a flipped Erayo, Soratami Ascendant plus Smokestack from turn 1, no deck can stand against that.
That's a quirky and neat little combo, and like you said I think it's good to keep in mind for redundancy.
I wouldn't run it as part of the mainboard list, though, because Grinding Station is utterly useless on its own, and as I mentioned a central tenet of my deck is that all the combo pieces have to pull their weight as great cards even on their own so nothing is ever a dead draw. Additionally, it's a mill wincon, which as a genre are pretty weak overall, since they bank on your opponents not running any Eldrazi gods or Gaea's Blessing, or for GY combo decks like Hermit Druid it actually helps them.
Sorry.
My playgroup doesn't play partial paris, either. We play regular mulligan style, but we get 1 freebie, which is to say instead of mulling directly to 6, your first mull you get to draw a new hand of 7 full cards.
That said, partial paris really lets us sculpt our opening hand, which is especially great since we're a combo deck--it's also why my playgroup doesn't really like partial paris.
I agree, XeroxedFool: if partial paris were allowed in my playgroup, I'd mull away the fat combo pieces like Possessed Portal in favor of an explosive opening hand that lets me drop and tap Arcum before T3, because that's all the tempo I need to win by T5.
I'm not sure I follow what the problem is in your scenario. If my infinite colorless + draw is already established, I can draw my deck and all the countermagic I'd need at instant speed, which means if they cast any disruption besides Krosan Grip I can just keep on drawing in response, and if I don't have any U on hand I'll just play Force of Will or Pact of Negation.
That's neat, though, I never thought of using it that way with Elixir of Immortality. I was thinkin' just flash in Shimmer Myr, flash in Mycosynth Lattice, now the infinite colorless you used for the draw becomes infinite U.
You know, I've been debating the merits over the last few weeks of including Vedalken Orrery, because I didn't even know Shimmer Myr existed. Shimmer Myr might even be better than Orrery, though, if I do decide to include one of those cards mainboard or sideboard, since he's cheaper and doubles as a dork (and the additional "restriction" of only affecting artifacts isn't even a restriction in this deck).
Thanks a lot for your guys' input. More food for thought.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
1. So anyways I read one of your blogs and you were talking about replacing Master Transmuter because you felt there was no point to search for her because you could search for Null Brooch instead to counter if in a case Arcum was tucked. Looking at the dates you reposted your decklist it seems you decided to keep her instead of replacing her for Myr Sire. What conclusion did you come up with or was it a typo?
2. You explained in your primer you don't run Mind Over Matter because it's too slow. In another forum of Arcum I read they were using it and a few other cards such as: Magus of the Future, Future Sight, and Cloud Key. The combo was basically use Divining Top and Etherium Sculptor and/or Cloud Key to play the deck. I'm sure they're too much mana and you can't search for all the combos and don't really need them considering our combo pieces. Just thought I'd get your professional input.
3. How do you feel about the land Buried Ruin? Some feel it's better than Academy Ruins because you don't potentially have to wait a turn to get the card you need and with crucible it's a nice combo.
4. Svyelunite Temple. I don't know how to feel about this card maybe I'm reading it wrong. It comes into play tapped and you can sacrifice it for 2U or tap it for a U. I just don't see how you can accelerate faster with this card. Help!
5. Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel. I'm sure it's a dumb question but what do we like to target with these cards? It seems like over kill to me can you explain further just so I feel better running them.
6. Shimmer Myr. Did you decide if you wanted to main board it? Still testing it out? I've been wondering about this card as well.
7. Your running Strip Mine, but not Wasteland. Is all because you need that blue mana?
8. Run Timetwister or Windfall if you don't have it. Why not both? You could cut Thirst for Knowledge or do you feel Windfall isn't as good? What about Intuition or Frantic Search? How do you feel about those cards?
9. What's your take on Capsize? It can end up being costly, but the buyback might help in late game.
10. Artificer's Intuition? Is the card disadvantage too steep? Is the search for only artifacts for 1 converted mana cost not worth it for us?
Sorry for the LONG post. I'd appreciate your input. I like the mostly myr theme to the deck and how Arcum and the snow lands are from the same set. Heck I just love artifacts. I can't wait till they unban Metalworker. I wonder if he'd work in this deck and/or Tolarian Academy. Maybe if that happens we'd make it even more a artifact theme by adding more stuff like darksteel citadel or mox opal. Fat chance I'm sure. Just wishful thinking is all.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
By themselves, Turbine + Clock don't make anything infinite. The real combo is Mycosynth Lattice + Clock of Omens + [a critical mass of permanents (which become artifacts due to Lattice)], then using those critical mass of permanents and Arcum Dagsson to tutor out infinite mana + draw pieces.
The point is that Clock + Turbine allows you to pump out the critical mass of permanents really, really quickly, like within the same turn Clock comes out, since the artifact tokens can be tapped to untap Turbine to produce more artifact tokens. And since Myr Turbine is generally the first thing you tutor with Arcum anyway, it fits fluidly with the overall gameplan.
Please let me know if this explanation wasn't clear.
Thanks for your support! I know Arcum's a commander that's been around a long time, and it pleases me greatly to hear that my primer's still a central resource despite all the other decklists out there.
It's no typo. I kept Master Transmuter in on purpose.
I'm constantly changing my mind about her--it seems like every month I think of her differently--but my current stance on the matter is that she offers a unique and exceedingly powerful ability that rivals even Arcum's himself for those days when you just can't stick the old man. Her highly-colorless cost of 3U redeems her even if she's just used as a dork that game, as opposed to a cost like 2UU which would be much harder to manage in the early game.
This is just my current feelings at 9:00 PM on a Sunday. Like I said, I've been on the fence about her for a long time and I still am. Whenever I change my mind, though, I always post my thoughts here, and I always keep a record of my changes in the changelog so you can follow along.
I think the combo you're getting at is Etherium Sculptor/Cloud Key + Sensei's Divining Top + Future Sight/Magus of the Future. The idea is to make Top free to cast, then abuse its draw ability + Future Sight for infinite draw.
As I addressed in the primer, I don't really like this combo, because Future Sight/Magus of the Future are both A) impossible to tutor for since we run no creature or enchantment tutors and B) kinda clunky for our streamlined curve.
Mind Over Matter is a separate issue. It's a great card in this deck (not as good as it is in Azami, Lady of Scrolls, granted, but still great) and some Arcum lists that have an overall higher curve will use it, but my list is too streamlined for a 6cmc card that can't be tutored for and doesn't directly say "you win the game."
Another one of those cards I'm on the fence about. I may very well end up running both Buried Ruin and Academy Ruins.
In my general experience, though, if it's an artifact that's really worth fishing out of your grave, it's a fat combo piece like Darksteel Forge, at which point you'd rather use Academy Ruins to get it back into the library where Arcum can fetch it for free rather than use Buried Ruin to bring it back to the hand where you'd have to hardcast it.
I don't think I understand your question. It works the same way Crystal Vein does, only that it provides colored mana and doesn't work the turn it comes into play, which isn't even a drawback if you play it early.
e.g
T1 Svyelunite Temple, pass.
T2 Island, Lightning Greaves, pass.
T3 Island, tap two islands and sac Temple for UUUU, play Arcum, equip with Lightning Greaves, pass.
Thus Svyelunite Temple allows you to ramp into 4 mana on T3. Granted, you're set back for future turns since you just sacced a land--but that hardly matters, since once Arcum's secured on the field, you don't really need more than 4 mana anyway since you won't actually be casting much besides countermagic, maybe a mana rock or silver bullet here and there.
What DON'T we like to target with these cards? Don't forget Phyrexian Metamorph, too, though he's usually better utilized as a commander-killer.
Double up on Myr Turbine to help with a Possessed Portal lock or Clock of Omens engine.
Double up on Sol Ring, Gilded Lotus, Seat of the Synod, or any other mana rock for more ramp.
Double up on Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb, or any other silver bullet to add redundancy to your prison (in case one gets removed).
Honestly it'd be harder for me to come up with a list of artifacts that wouldn't be good to copy.
Still testing. I'm not convinced enough yet to say that it's worth running mainboard. We have several instant-speed wincons already, particularly now that Staff of Domination was unbanned, so I'm still evaluating whether it pulls its weight on its own (which, as I said in the primer, is the core concept behind every card in this deck).
With all the rocks people run in EDH, especially competitive EDH, I repeatedly find that a single strip/waste effect doesn't really do much to change the tide of the game. Where they really hurt is when they're combo'd with Crucible of Worlds. When you consider them solely for that purpose, Strip Mine is, obviously, strictly better than Wasteland.
I prefer Thirst for Knowledge over Windfall. Instant speed draw 3 for 3 mana? C'mon son, in a competitive meta that's a way more viable option than Windfalling at sorcery speed and passing the turn while the rest of your group gets to take advantage of their new hand of cards before you do (not to mention that Windfall has the potential to draw you little to nothing if everyone is goldfishing.
Intuition is tutor more than draw, and it works best in decks that play their graveyard like their hand (such that it essentially tutors for 3 cards and your opponent's choice becomes irrelevant, like in 43lands.dec in Legacy). We have better options for tutors and we're not quite that friendly with our GY.
Frantic Search, now that's worth considering. At a glance I'd say Thirst looks better, but I can't say that as confidently as I could with the other ones you mentioned. I'll have to play around with it.
Bounce is weak. If you're going to use Capsize, you'd use it like Azami does--as a wincon once you've got infinite mana (bounce everything, everyone concedes).
If you feel like you need wincon redundancy because you find your opponents are running too many Sadistic Sacrament/Jester's Cap effects, adding Capsize effectively provides you a whole new avenue to win all by itself.
Personally I don't feel that's necessary for me and my playgroup, but it's clearly a metagame choice.
Put simply, yes.
I love long posts too, as you can tell, so don't apologize.
With the recent unbanning of Staff of Domination, which of course combos most easily with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and Metalworker, I sincerely doubt Metalworker will be unbanned anytime soon. Tolarian Academy, too.
That said, if they do get unbanned for whatever reason, you can rest assured they'll both be auto-includes in this deck.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner! (lol tinypic removed it)
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
1. Expedition Map
2. Kuldotha Forgemaster
3. Vendalken Orrery/Shimmer Myr
4. Cathodion
5. Mimic Vat
6. Thran Dynamo
7. Lifeline
8. Lion's Eye Diamond
9. Filgree Sages
10.Reshape
I like the Expedition Map because it helps us get ahold of Hall of the Bandit Lord giving Arcum haste. Although we'd only have one search method for a land besides Tolarian West I look at it like we have 3 Hall of the Bandit Lords in the deck, but with more versatility because we have options. If I did consider running Kuldotha it would be because I'm worried about Arcum becoming worthless when our combo pieces are out. I'd search for Master Transmuter and try to win the game with her leading if our combo pieces are removed from game and he helps find her at a steep price no doubt. I don't know about if I'd run one or the other or not run at all. I like the Vendalken because arcum can search for it, but I like the Shimmer Myr because it's cheaper and could be a dork for Arcum. I am curious about Cathodion because he's 3 mana like Scuttlemutt, but can give us 3 mana after we sack him or is haveing the one mana from Scuttlemutt to help cast Arcum better? I thought hard on Mimic Vat I might be reaching with this scenario. If arcum has haste and we get targeted with a destroy effect and don't want to lose him, but have no counter spells we could sac our dork and search for Mimic Vat and keep recurring Arcum with haste. I think Null Brooch is a steep price especially only one time effect before our turn again. I'm sure it's not a good idea because of all the exile stuff people run just thought I'd ask what you think and also if you don't like that option what about Chalice of the Void? Instead of losing your whole hand you just lose only a few spells possibly. We run Gilded Lotus which is 5 mana for 3 blue, but thran is 4 for 3 colorless. I know Gilded Lotus combos well with Filgree Sages with a Power Artifact on for infinite mana untap all artifacts. On it's own Filgree Sages is still a untap artifact effect we run several in this deck. If we do run Null Brooch and are willing to discard our hand maybe we might consider Lion's Eye Diamond. We could pump him out so quick but maybe too quick because we won't have a dork to sac. I've seen people run Lifeline in the situation we would use Null Brooch but thats only if its not a remove from game effect same with my Mimic vat scenario I don't know if it's worth it. I get targeted in my play group the most and this was FAR before I ever played Arcum. So naturally I became more of a control type player to buy me the time I needed to win. My only concern which I'm sure is a big one is surviving without Arcum. Lets say worst case scenario we do get jester's capped TWICE and we get those combo pieces out of our reach could we survive? I think we have a chance if Master transmuter and scarecrone was on the battlefield and myr turbine. Im just thinking out loud now. I see your running Torpor orb main board if that's in play trinket mage won't work should we take trinket mage out? and graffdigger's cage the only card we use that doesn't support this is scarecrone is it better to run this card all the time? If your always getting targeted what can you do to slow them down besides the possessed portal way? Although I run Arcum nothings changed in my playgroup I'm always the first one they try to eliminate.
I know thats a lot of rambling I hope you get my meaning.