i'm new to edh in general (no pun), and the izzet scheme has caught my eye; notably nin and niv.
i play uwx control in standard and storm in modern, so i'm no stranger to grinding my opponents out or comboing off, but i'd like to try to avoid fun-policing too much in a more casual format. my problem is, with no real edh experience, i don't know where the appropriate line is between completely locking my friends out (seems like the "dream" list) and having a well-built deck that isn't trivial for them to play against. at the same time though, i'd like to have something that they don't mind playing against for multiple rounds; something in the spirit of the non-infinite list. for reference, my friends typically run netdecked edh lists; one has 600~ usd clique/wanderer/marath lists, and the other has a foiled out sisay worth ~3k.
i guess my question is: do you think that your non-infinite list still has a fair shot in a more competitive multiplayer environment? if not, what suggestions would you make to steady the power curve of the non-infinite list to keep up with a more cutthroat table?
I've read through the primer posts, and done a search on the thread but I may have just missed it (in which case I apologize), but I was wondering about your opinions on Grafted Exoskeleton. I used to run a Niv-Mizzet 1.0 deck (which I just took apart as part of a downsizing of my collection), and this was THE major win avenue for the deck. Needing to deal only 10 points of damage with Niv is huge.
And just a comment on your own Reweave speculation: have you considered Riptide Shapeshifter for this slot? It is much more dependable when trying to get a specific creature (naming "sphinx" or "Eldrazi" or "Praetor", etc), but is restricted to only searching for creatures, and is much less accurate when looking for something like Venser, Shaper Savant. Another possibility that I used to run in my own list was Long-Term Plans. With all the card drawing in Niv, it shouldn't be too much worse than a Mirage block "top-deck" tutor.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
The primer is currently undergoing a bit of revision. I'm in the middle of making some swaps, so I apologize if there are cards mentioned that don't appear in the decklist. For example, Archaemoncer came out for Mystic Retrieval
Hawklight, I would say that there are certain cards in the main list that are certainly overpowered, Show and Tell being one of them. It allows a turn one win involving Omniscience and Enter the Infinite. If you are worried about making people angry, I would swap that out, along with Curiosity. They give you easy wins. I find myself almost never using those combos because I actually do want my opponents to enjoy battling me, and I enjoy that process as well. A turn one win more or less defeats the purpose of the game IMO, but it's there because there are other decks also capable of turn 1 wins. I wanted to stand toe to toe with them and be prepared to beat them.
Counterbalance is also a pretty dick card and can probably stand to be omitted.
Also, note that you don't have to cast a spell just because you can. I often cycle certain game winning cards away depending on the game state. I want to give other people a chance to play their decks. But when I'm staring down an infinite army of kobolds, I'm going to win if I can, or at least stop those infinite kobolds from happening (Food Chain + Prossh, Skyraider of Kher).
A competitive list can easily be put together for under $500. You don't need a lot of the more expensive stuff for it to play very smoothly. That will naturally cut out a lot of the overpowered pieces.
LimDul945, I don't like Grafted Exoskeleton at all for the same reason I don't like Basilisk Collar, Lightning Greaves, or Clout of the Dominus. With Firemind, I find that they are all win more cards and add too much bulk to the deck. There's almost always something that I would rather be casting. Many games, I don't even cast my commander because I don't need him to win. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius lends himself much more to a voltronish strategy.
Understand that dealing incremental damage with Firemind isn't my primary win condition. It's Inner Fire + Comet Storm or Omniscience + Mindmoil + Firemind. In either one of these cases, Niv having infect is arbitrary. Firemind is largely there to combo with Curiosity as a method of drawing my library so I can win with the aforementioned combos. Firemind is also not my primary source of removal. It's Cyclonic Rift, Chaos Warp, and my counterspell package.
Ah, yes Riptide Shapeshifter is what I was thinking of. But now I remember why I hadn't chosen it. It's too mana intensive and will only ever grab Sphinx so it has the potential to be very very dead.
Long-Term Plans on the other hand deserves more consideration. I've run it before, and didn't like it initially but I think I'm willing to give it another go. The fact that it's an instant is its saving grace, since after your draw step it will only be 2 cards deep. Frantic Search, Faithless Looting, etc will grab it out for me as will any handcycling card. Future Sight also works nicely with it. I'll conclude that if any deck can use it, it would be this one, however it's lackluster compared to Intuition at the same cost. But I think I'd like it a bit more than Drift of Phantasms or Ethereal Usher since it can be recurred by my instant/sorcery recursion cards and can get a lot more things, albeit having a chance of being delayed.
Archaeomancer --> Mystic Retrieval - Without Evacuation in the deck Archaeomacer lost a lot of her appeal. Retrieval is just awesome with handcycling effects and is certainly the better card by itself in this deck.
Standstill --> Thirst for Knowledge - Standstill didn't really fit within this deck's theme. I'm not trying to stall the game, I'm trying to win early. I found that I was often the one that wanted to pop standstill. It was hurting me more than it was helping. Thirst for Knowledge on the other hand gives me an effect that I've come to love - the efficient draw/discard that synergizess so well with graveyard recursion. Also the fact that Thirst for Knowledge is itself an instant is a huge bonus. Instant card draw is very very nice.
Gilded Lotus --> Long-Term Plans - Lotus was a hard cut and I wouldn't do it if this list wasn't already grossly competitive. At 5 mana I want to be curving into my Time Warp spells and casting the groundwork for my win conditions. Long-Term plans is useful to me earlier than Lotus is and it's the only tutor that can grab Consecrated Sphinx or Thought Reflection. I wouldn't consider LTP unless I thought I could reliably get to the tutored card when I need it. But half the deck is designed to do just that, often at instant speed. LTP is yet another way to tutor up removal or combos when I need them.
Venser, Shaper Savant --> Merchant Scroll - This is the wrong deck for Venser. He's not living up to the potential that he has in other decks, specifically creature based or flicker abuse decks. As such, his cost of 4 is too high for this competitive build. I would much rather have a Mindbreak Trap or Cryptic Command in my hand. For that reason I swapped in Merchant Scroll. It's yet another way for me to get Cyclonic Rift when I need it, but can also get Mystical Tutor or Intuition or even Tolarian winds. Being able to grab any other counterspell is also nothing to laugh at. Since just having Force of Will in hand is enough to stop a lot of decks from doing anything relevant. Additionally, lowering my average cmc and decreasing my creature count are two things I can get behind.
Molten Psyche --> Careful Consideration - I'll be honest, Psyche is a card that I'm never that excited to see. I can't remember the last time I actually won using it. It's just never something I would tutor for. Early game when I don't have metalcraft, it's just subpar compared to Winds of Change. I'm not dead set on Careful Consideration but instant speed card draw is very nice in a control deck. It also works nicely with Consecrated Sphinx. It's just a solid midrange draw spell.
So in summary, I've added two additional instant speed draw/discard spells to help me dig for what I really need. I also added THREE more tutors to the deck that I feel to be very solid. I think I still want to find room for Dizzy Spell. It's yet another way to get Sol Ring, Top, and Curiosity into my hand.
It punishes the opponent's greediness, combos ridiculously with all of the hand-cycling spells AND it puts Scroll Rack on steroids! I just finished a game scroll racking for 17 and digging into Dream Halls. Imagine playing this with Consecrated Sphinx or Thought Reflection in play.
You know, I've tried him but never found that I liked drawing into him. I ended up just using Helm of Awakening. Since it combos with Future Sight and Sensei's Divining Top for infinite draw, I feel it's more justified. I pretty much have steered away from creatures completely (unless they are Consecrated Sphinx) just to avoid being affected by board wipes. My paper version runs a lot more wipes because it's a slower build.
CoBTyrannon, you express a legit concern, and I have a few solutions. If you wouldn't mind, could you post your version for me? That will help me to help you.
The Primer list was built to be as competitive as possible. It was made for a competitive environment - to face 3 other equally competitive decks. If your opponents have weaker lists, they WILL gang up on you, and even the most competitive deck will have a hard time fending off 3 other decks.
But there's a strategy to mitigate this problem. Tone down your plays to match what the table is doing. Hold back. Counter or remove things as needed, but don't go full throttle. If you don't and go for the early win (which the deck is designed to do) you'll be seen as the primary threat forevermore if you win early. Just resist the temptation You can even allow an opponent to win if it means you don't become seen as the playgroup's biggest threat. Disregard this, if your opponents are equally strong.
The second solution, if you actually want to be the archenemy, is to increase your mass removal spells, which I would do anyway if your list is slower than the Primer version, which is likely since few people are going to have access to a Mana Crypt or a Show and Tell (I don't even own copies)
All of these are very budget friendly and will pretty much make you immune to creatures. The reason I don't list more of these in the Primer is because it's already so fast, and I've got seven tutors that can grab Cyclonic Rift and the means to recur it or shuffle it back into my library again and again. Using slots for more removal spells would make the deck slower.
Finally, if either of those solutions isn't enough you can just neuter the deck. Take out all the dick cards and infinite combos. Decrease the number of counters. Decrease the number of tutors and ramp. Run Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius as your commander instead.
And Isochron Scepter can be used but I don't like it. It's too easy to remove. It's just one of those things I find to be gimicky. You'll also find that it can be a very dead card in your hand if you don't have something to imprint. That's a big reason I ended up cutting both Twincast and Reverberate. They depend on other cards to be useful.
Hi Rowan! So I know that the Nin deck is a rough idea? Of what the deck would look like if you used it. I was just wondering if you will be updating them as sets come out. I've been using your nin deck for a while. Keranos however just seems more appealing to me. Is it updated? Would you make any changes? Sorry, I know that's not what this primer is about but I love how you've provided so much info on other Izzet generals. Thanks again
I stand by what I said before. I won't be updating the alternate commander lists that much because I don't play them. There should be a Primer for some of those commanders but there isn't. Maybe you'll be the one to do it? I'd say just pick something and stick with it. You've got to play the deck to evolve it. That's how I became so knowledgeable about Niv. I decided I wanted the deck to be the best that it could be and didn't stop until I got there.
This deck is slower than the Primer so I've thrown in a few more removal spells to compensate. They should help you stall long enough to win. The money was all in the fetchlands, dual lands, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Intuition, Show and Tell, Timetwister and Mana Crypt. Honestly the deck can do without these cards, and the spirit of Firemind's Fury certainly remains intact.
There a few money cards left in the deck, but I consider these to be essential:
Sensei's Divining Top - At about $21 I think this is the most expensive card still remaining. Besides being one of the best topdeck manipulation cards in the game, this is a piece of one of our infinite draw combos. Since you're going to be playing a slower game, you need as much card control as you can get.
Time Spiral - the best handcyling cards aren't cheap. But at $17 this "rebalance" of Timetwister is a bargain.
Wheel of Fortune - Don't even try to play Niv-Mizzet without this. It's worth every cent of its $16 pricetag
All Is Dust - At about $15 this is one of the best board wipes in the game. Since we aren't playing black or white, we are missing out on some of the premier board wipe spells, so I consider this to be essential. The fact that it forces people to sac instead of simple destroying is very relevant.
Consecrated Sphinx - this is about a $10 card now, but it's an essential draw engine that cant' be omitted.
Pact of Negation - a $9 counterspell that ensures our combo win.
Steam Vents - $9 land that helps us not be color screwed.
Chaos Warp - one of the most versatile removal spells in the format.
Dream Halls, Omniscience - both part of what makes this deck so damn strong. In conjunction with Mindmoil, they comprise one of our primary win conditions.
And for your suggestions:
I've minimized the number of creatures in the deck because they have no synergy. They can't be tutored for with Mystical Tutor or Personal Tutor, and they can't be recurred by Snapcaster Mage or Call to Mind. They also need to wait a turn to be used in most cases. I have no way to grant things haste. The mana cost is certainly a problem too. Dragon Mage costs 7. That's as much as Thought Reflection which has the ability to win me the game if not immediately, then in a few turns. And finally, they get hit by my own board wipes. Well, clearly not Cyclonic Rift but All is Dust. The budget version also contains a few more wipes such as Blasphemous Act and Evacuation because it's slower. I want to keep these as one sided as possible.
But besides the above reasons, it really just comes down to which cards are better uses of mana.
the answer should be obvious what we want to see in our hands more. Yes, the Sphinx is a creature but it's so stupidly broken that I would have to be an idiot not to use it. I expect it to be banned at some point.
Words of War ~ Remember that our objective is to draw our library, not to ping away at people. Some games I don't even cast Niv-Mizzet. Enter the Infinite --> Inner Fire, Comet Storm is by far the easiest way to win. The board wipes are there to deal with creatures in an efficient manner. Words of War is hardly efficient. If I wanted redundancy for Niv, I'd run Psychosis Crawler but the redundancy is just not needed. If you play the deck, you'll see what I mean.
I would encourage you to play with any card that catches your fancy. I've playtested A LOT of cards, and have arrived at the current version. But, without figuring out what cards didn't serve me, I could never have gotten here. And it's worth it to question the status quo. When I first started playing this deck it was accepted that cards like Opportunity and Inspiration were auto-includes. I was considered foolish to think cards like Tolarian Winds or Reforge the Soul could be better. And Inner Fire? wtf was I thinking?
Gilded Lotus is pretty solid actually. I only recently cut it but that's because I've got things like Show and Tell and Temporal Manipulation in the list. I'd run it.
I don't really like Lotus Bloom because it's a use-once. We need permanent sources of mana.
Boseiju is alright, and if you have one, by all means use it, but I don't think it's necessary for a deck running Force of Will and Pact of Negation. Colorless lands can be very annoying. I hate hate getting color screwed by expensive colorless lands.
Counterflux is alright. I've got one in my paper list atm, but I would still run something cheaper like Memory Lapse over it. Mindbreak Trap is just a boss and I'd get a copy if you don't have one.
A card that I'm reconsidering is Spiraling Embers. I'm wondering if it has the potential to replace both Inner Fire and Comet Storm as my primary win condition. I know it cannot kill all players at once, but it can be recurred for lethal board damage. Inner Fire and Comet Storm are of both questionable value outside of my win condition. It's annoying to need two separate cards to win. I'm going to get a copy of Embers and see how it plays in comparison. I think I have enough recursion to make it work.
Wanted to throw a shout-out here for including Counterbalance in your list and explaining why it's good. I included it in my Oona combo deck based on your list and logic, and it's doing some awesome work with all the top of deck tutors and top-deck manipulation that exists in UB. It allows me to either play a fantastic control game or aggressively combo and put one of the myriad 2CMC cards on top of my deck to ensure I have a free counterspell that blanks a vast majority of the counters that get played. For others who read and post in this thread, Rowan's a smart guy who has great suggestions. Solid player with excellent insight as to what is good and what is not for his deck and possibly yours.
@CoBTryannon
What is this 70% rule you're talking about? I've never heard of it.
Having played pretty consistently every weekend, I can tell you that the only real cards that have been impressive to me from the new sets have been the new fetchland art (I think it's way cooler to have dragon corpses in the art than the actual locations described by the title), Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise. They're having an impact in Standard and Legacy for good reason, and I've been able to see their effect in several games. Of those two cards, Dig Through Time is fantastic. Being able to dig seven deep, keep the best two, and then put the rest in a place where you're likely not to see them again is super strong. It's a fantastic late game spell that would be easily fueled with all the Wheel effects that are in your deck; i bet it would cost on UU every time you have the chance to cast it. It's highly efficient at getting the pieces you need in order to win right now for combo decks. I would play it in my Memnarch deck, but I frequently don't have the cards to exile in my graveyard to delve it into a reasonable casting cost. If you haven't tried it, I recommend it. A possible card that you could cut for it is Careful Consideration because it preforms basically the same function, will most likely be cheaper to cast than the Consideration, and digs deeper in your deck than the Consideration. And you keep the same amount of cards that Consideration allows you to keep, even in its most optimal, sorcery speed mode.
Hi, Rowan and everyone. I'm lurk this threat and FireStorm4056 for some time. I was playing before Melek, Izzet Paragon and want to try a much more competitive Commander and one that can make the games for me and my playgroup fun. My Melek deck many times waste to much time to do to little or to fizzle and in the end it is not fun for anyone.
Thanks for all this threat, I learn a lot here and could make my deck with the idea of "Handcycling" that my playgroup like in general. It's many times a symmetrical effect and anyone complains. For now my playgroup enjoy the deck and don't are afraid of it be to "powerful", they all run powerful decks too.
Do you even think in Dig Through Time in your deck? Many time you can play it for the cost of 4 or 5 and delve 3 or 4 unimportant graveyard cards like some fetch or lands and go deep and see the next seven cards and choose two. What do you think about it?
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The Izmagnus are the most powerful members of the Izmundi
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes Commander: Locust God
Hi Rowan! Thanks for the great primer. Just wanted to chime in and second benjameenbear's comments. Dig Through Time specifically has been amazing. I think in this list it is almost a strict upgrade to Careful Consideration. Delve is a fairly broken mechanic. This deck, with all of its wheel effects, is well-positioned to take advantage. A scenario that has come up a couple times already is that Delve makes Strip Mine able to provide mana and destroy a land in the same turn - a really gross play if I've ever seen one.
I also wanted to encourage anybody who was on the fence about Intuition being worth the price tag. It is very, very good in this deck. With Dream Halls or Omniscience out, drawing Intuition is basically GG. Intuition searching Enter The Infinite, any 2 recursion spells just ends the game on the spot. With a recursion spell or Snapcaster Mage in hand, it is a double Demonic Tutor at instant speed. It just fits perfectly into the game-plan for this deck to the point that I would consider it essential, even over a lot of the broken artifact acceleration.
Good luck in your future games everybody! Please let me know if you have any similar experiences or any suggestions to share. My list for reference: http://deckbox.org/sets/923343
Careful Consideration --> Fact or Fiction - FoF digs deeper than Careful Consideration for the same CMC. This is a combo deck so we are really looking for specific cards and specific times. The pitched cards can still be recurred.
Past in Flames --> Evacuation - I think it's finally time for Past in Flames to come out. It just wasn't efficient enough compared to the other recursion cards we're running. Evacuation can give us a little more insurance that we don't get swarmed. Evac can also be tutored for fairly easily just like Cyclonic Rift.
Izzet Signet --> Sapphire Medallion - I think this is a pretty solid upgrade. Ever since the reprint I've been using the Medallion and it really kicks things into high gear.
I like Dig through Time and I will likely be finding a spot for it.
Careful Consideration --; Fact or Fiction - FoF digs deeper than Careful Consideration for the same CMC. This is a combo deck so we are really looking for specific cards and specific times. The pitched cards can still be recurred.
Past in Flames --; Evacuation - I think it's finally time for Past in Flames to come out. It just wasn't efficient enough compared to the other recursion cards we're running. Evacuation can give us a little more insurance that we don't get swarmed. Evac can also be tutored for fairly easily just like Cyclonic Rift.
Izzet Signet --; Sapphire Medallion - I think this is a pretty solid upgrade. Ever since the reprint I've been using the Medallion and it really kicks things into high gear.
I like Dig through Time and I will likely be finding a spot for it.
I haven't run Fact or Fiction in this list yet, but I know from my experiences in Cube that FoF and DTT are best friends. Glad to see Evacuation pick up a spot in your list. I have been running it over Chaos Warp in my list because my meta is already very hostile to Artifacts and Enchantments, meaning I was usually only Chaos Warping commanders. With the rules change, Evacuation just seems better. I played a game last week where I was very behind and very close to dead but an EOT Evacutaion allowed me to untap and cast Rhystic Study and Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind to get me back into the game.
I play Sapphire Medallion in my Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir deck, and it is, of course, the bees' knees. I wonder if it is worth the swap here and am interested to hear your reports after some time has passed. For now, I think I will stick with the Izzet Signet and see how it goes. I will definitely try out cutting Past in Flames for FoF though. I agree we need the velocity in this deck to find our pieces ASAP or die by creature swarm. The combination of FoF and Evacuation is a pretty big upgrade for the list defensively, without having to commit permanents like Propaganda to the board.
Seems like a good set of changes overall and I'm excited to hear how it works for you.
Most of this list is blue (especially the cards that need the cost reduction), so I feel I'm getting plenty of mileage out of the Medallion. With our mana base, I don't think we're hurting too bad for colors either. If we can save 2 a turn with Medallion, we're already ahead with it. Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith were things I was considering as well though.
Because my paper deck is lacking a lot of the high dollar power cards, it runs a bit slower. In addition to what I'm running in the Primer, I also have Blasphemous Act, Devastation Tide, and Boomerang slotted in right now.
Chaos Warp is a good answer (less so with the rule change), but I've wondered if another counterspell might be give us more versatility still.
I'd like to submit an idea for discussion. Is Memory Jar better or worse than Reforge the Soul in this deck? At first glace you might think the answer is obvious, but let me lay out some pros and cons.
We can set up a miracle casting of RtS pretty reliably - therefore it's a nice tutor target in the early game - both Personal Tutor and Mystical Tutor can grab it. It can be recurred with our instant/sorcery recursion spells if needed.
Memory Jar can be tutored for directly to hand with Fabricate and recurred indefinitely with Academy Ruins. The nice thing about Jar is that it gives us unfair card advantage because our opponents don't get to keep their hands. This is pretty huge now that Leyline of Anticipation is out. It is however targetable by artifact removal. You might say you can just tap in response, but a lot of the time, you won't have enough mana to use the cards you get until your next turn.
What's your verdict?
While we're on the subject of artifacts, I'm thinking about swapping in Tezzeret the Seeker again in place of Fabricate. While at 5cmc the planeswalker is significantly slower, the ability to get out multiple ramp pieces is pretty great. And now that Grim Monolith and Mana Vault are both maindecked, the untapping is very attractive.
I think Memory Jar has to be a meta call. In my group, I generally do not want to mill Daretti or Roon or Jarad for 7 to feed their own graveyard shenanigans, so I will be keeping Reforge the Soul.
Tezzeret the Seeker is a card I have been considering in all of my blue lists since the announcement of the reprint in MM15. I like him, but I'm not sure if I would cut Fabricate for him. We can more easily recur Fabricate and walkers tend to draw a lot of aggro in my group. If we want untapping, I think Teferi, Temporal Archmage is potentially more powerful.
I think Memory Jar would be a solid inclusion to the game plan because it will help you find more wheel effects faster, has the added benefit of proactively removing potential answers from your opponent's decks by pseudo-milling, and can be recurred by Academy Ruins which adds a solid late-game.
Tezzeret the Seeker is pretty awesome. I like him a lot and I'm never really sad to see him. Like ever. He tutors AND functions as ramp. And occasionally kills people with his ultimate. I think that's a good swap. I agree with izzetgood, though, I like running both him and Fabricate. It adds redundancy to the deck in finding those important artifact ramp pieces and other utility cards. However, looking at your list, I don't know if that redundancy is needed. It doesn't seem like there are too many artifact cards that you would want to find consistently every game. I could be wrong though.
i play uwx control in standard and storm in modern, so i'm no stranger to grinding my opponents out or comboing off, but i'd like to try to avoid fun-policing too much in a more casual format. my problem is, with no real edh experience, i don't know where the appropriate line is between completely locking my friends out (seems like the "dream" list) and having a well-built deck that isn't trivial for them to play against. at the same time though, i'd like to have something that they don't mind playing against for multiple rounds; something in the spirit of the non-infinite list. for reference, my friends typically run netdecked edh lists; one has 600~ usd clique/wanderer/marath lists, and the other has a foiled out sisay worth ~3k.
i guess my question is: do you think that your non-infinite list still has a fair shot in a more competitive multiplayer environment? if not, what suggestions would you make to steady the power curve of the non-infinite list to keep up with a more cutthroat table?
And just a comment on your own Reweave speculation: have you considered Riptide Shapeshifter for this slot? It is much more dependable when trying to get a specific creature (naming "sphinx" or "Eldrazi" or "Praetor", etc), but is restricted to only searching for creatures, and is much less accurate when looking for something like Venser, Shaper Savant. Another possibility that I used to run in my own list was Long-Term Plans. With all the card drawing in Niv, it shouldn't be too much worse than a Mirage block "top-deck" tutor.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Hawklight, I would say that there are certain cards in the main list that are certainly overpowered, Show and Tell being one of them. It allows a turn one win involving Omniscience and Enter the Infinite. If you are worried about making people angry, I would swap that out, along with Curiosity. They give you easy wins. I find myself almost never using those combos because I actually do want my opponents to enjoy battling me, and I enjoy that process as well. A turn one win more or less defeats the purpose of the game IMO, but it's there because there are other decks also capable of turn 1 wins. I wanted to stand toe to toe with them and be prepared to beat them.
Counterbalance is also a pretty dick card and can probably stand to be omitted.
Also, note that you don't have to cast a spell just because you can. I often cycle certain game winning cards away depending on the game state. I want to give other people a chance to play their decks. But when I'm staring down an infinite army of kobolds, I'm going to win if I can, or at least stop those infinite kobolds from happening (Food Chain + Prossh, Skyraider of Kher).
A competitive list can easily be put together for under $500. You don't need a lot of the more expensive stuff for it to play very smoothly. That will naturally cut out a lot of the overpowered pieces.
LimDul945, I don't like Grafted Exoskeleton at all for the same reason I don't like Basilisk Collar, Lightning Greaves, or Clout of the Dominus. With Firemind, I find that they are all win more cards and add too much bulk to the deck. There's almost always something that I would rather be casting. Many games, I don't even cast my commander because I don't need him to win. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius lends himself much more to a voltronish strategy.
Understand that dealing incremental damage with Firemind isn't my primary win condition. It's Inner Fire + Comet Storm or Omniscience + Mindmoil + Firemind. In either one of these cases, Niv having infect is arbitrary. Firemind is largely there to combo with Curiosity as a method of drawing my library so I can win with the aforementioned combos. Firemind is also not my primary source of removal. It's Cyclonic Rift, Chaos Warp, and my counterspell package.
Ah, yes Riptide Shapeshifter is what I was thinking of. But now I remember why I hadn't chosen it. It's too mana intensive and will only ever grab Sphinx so it has the potential to be very very dead.
Long-Term Plans on the other hand deserves more consideration. I've run it before, and didn't like it initially but I think I'm willing to give it another go. The fact that it's an instant is its saving grace, since after your draw step it will only be 2 cards deep. Frantic Search, Faithless Looting, etc will grab it out for me as will any handcycling card. Future Sight also works nicely with it. I'll conclude that if any deck can use it, it would be this one, however it's lackluster compared to Intuition at the same cost. But I think I'd like it a bit more than Drift of Phantasms or Ethereal Usher since it can be recurred by my instant/sorcery recursion cards and can get a lot more things, albeit having a chance of being delayed.
It's going in! Thanks for the suggestion
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
So in summary, I've added two additional instant speed draw/discard spells to help me dig for what I really need. I also added THREE more tutors to the deck that I feel to be very solid. I think I still want to find room for Dizzy Spell. It's yet another way to get Sol Ring, Top, and Curiosity into my hand.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I've been following your primer for quite some time now and I gotta say, its absolutely amazing!!!
I have a card suggestion to make:
Trade Secrets
It punishes the opponent's greediness, combos ridiculously with all of the hand-cycling spells AND it puts Scroll Rack on steroids! I just finished a game scroll racking for 17 and digging into Dream Halls. Imagine playing this with Consecrated Sphinx or Thought Reflection in play.
Hope you like it!
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Thanks for the suggestion though.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
The Primer list was built to be as competitive as possible. It was made for a competitive environment - to face 3 other equally competitive decks. If your opponents have weaker lists, they WILL gang up on you, and even the most competitive deck will have a hard time fending off 3 other decks.
But there's a strategy to mitigate this problem. Tone down your plays to match what the table is doing. Hold back. Counter or remove things as needed, but don't go full throttle. If you don't and go for the early win (which the deck is designed to do) you'll be seen as the primary threat forevermore if you win early. Just resist the temptation You can even allow an opponent to win if it means you don't become seen as the playgroup's biggest threat. Disregard this, if your opponents are equally strong.
The second solution, if you actually want to be the archenemy, is to increase your mass removal spells, which I would do anyway if your list is slower than the Primer version, which is likely since few people are going to have access to a Mana Crypt or a Show and Tell (I don't even own copies)
In addition to All is Dust and Cyclonic Rift, you can run the following:
Evacuation - just solid creature removal
Devastation Tide - can be miracle cast pretty reliably
Blasphemous Act - very very efficient
Other decent options are:
Earthquake (doesn't hit Niv)
Chain Reaction
Propaganda (prone to removal but still good)
Ætherize - better in 1v1
All of these are very budget friendly and will pretty much make you immune to creatures. The reason I don't list more of these in the Primer is because it's already so fast, and I've got seven tutors that can grab Cyclonic Rift and the means to recur it or shuffle it back into my library again and again. Using slots for more removal spells would make the deck slower.
Finally, if either of those solutions isn't enough you can just neuter the deck. Take out all the dick cards and infinite combos. Decrease the number of counters. Decrease the number of tutors and ramp. Run Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius as your commander instead.
And Isochron Scepter can be used but I don't like it. It's too easy to remove. It's just one of those things I find to be gimicky. You'll also find that it can be a very dead card in your hand if you don't have something to imprint. That's a big reason I ended up cutting both Twincast and Reverberate. They depend on other cards to be useful.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Gloks
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I actually came up with a budget decklist for someone else. It's $250 and plays great. Here it is, if you're interested:
And for your suggestions:
I've minimized the number of creatures in the deck because they have no synergy. They can't be tutored for with Mystical Tutor or Personal Tutor, and they can't be recurred by Snapcaster Mage or Call to Mind. They also need to wait a turn to be used in most cases. I have no way to grant things haste. The mana cost is certainly a problem too. Dragon Mage costs 7. That's as much as Thought Reflection which has the ability to win me the game if not immediately, then in a few turns. And finally, they get hit by my own board wipes. Well, clearly not Cyclonic Rift but All is Dust. The budget version also contains a few more wipes such as Blasphemous Act and Evacuation because it's slower. I want to keep these as one sided as possible.
But besides the above reasons, it really just comes down to which cards are better uses of mana.
Dragon Mage vs Wheel of Fortune
Arcanis the Omnipotent vs Consecrated Sphinx
the answer should be obvious what we want to see in our hands more. Yes, the Sphinx is a creature but it's so stupidly broken that I would have to be an idiot not to use it. I expect it to be banned at some point.
Words of War ~ Remember that our objective is to draw our library, not to ping away at people. Some games I don't even cast Niv-Mizzet. Enter the Infinite --> Inner Fire, Comet Storm is by far the easiest way to win. The board wipes are there to deal with creatures in an efficient manner. Words of War is hardly efficient. If I wanted redundancy for Niv, I'd run Psychosis Crawler but the redundancy is just not needed. If you play the deck, you'll see what I mean.
I would encourage you to play with any card that catches your fancy. I've playtested A LOT of cards, and have arrived at the current version. But, without figuring out what cards didn't serve me, I could never have gotten here. And it's worth it to question the status quo. When I first started playing this deck it was accepted that cards like Opportunity and Inspiration were auto-includes. I was considered foolish to think cards like Tolarian Winds or Reforge the Soul could be better. And Inner Fire? wtf was I thinking?
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Gilded Lotus is pretty solid actually. I only recently cut it but that's because I've got things like Show and Tell and Temporal Manipulation in the list. I'd run it.
Other than that, Coldsteel Heart, Coalition Relic, and Fellwar Stone are all decent.
I don't really like Lotus Bloom because it's a use-once. We need permanent sources of mana.
Boseiju is alright, and if you have one, by all means use it, but I don't think it's necessary for a deck running Force of Will and Pact of Negation. Colorless lands can be very annoying. I hate hate getting color screwed by expensive colorless lands.
Counterflux is alright. I've got one in my paper list atm, but I would still run something cheaper like Memory Lapse over it. Mindbreak Trap is just a boss and I'd get a copy if you don't have one.
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A card that I'm reconsidering is Spiraling Embers. I'm wondering if it has the potential to replace both Inner Fire and Comet Storm as my primary win condition. I know it cannot kill all players at once, but it can be recurred for lethal board damage. Inner Fire and Comet Storm are of both questionable value outside of my win condition. It's annoying to need two separate cards to win. I'm going to get a copy of Embers and see how it plays in comparison. I think I have enough recursion to make it work.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Wanted to throw a shout-out here for including Counterbalance in your list and explaining why it's good. I included it in my Oona combo deck based on your list and logic, and it's doing some awesome work with all the top of deck tutors and top-deck manipulation that exists in UB. It allows me to either play a fantastic control game or aggressively combo and put one of the myriad 2CMC cards on top of my deck to ensure I have a free counterspell that blanks a vast majority of the counters that get played. For others who read and post in this thread, Rowan's a smart guy who has great suggestions. Solid player with excellent insight as to what is good and what is not for his deck and possibly yours.
@CoBTryannon
What is this 70% rule you're talking about? I've never heard of it.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Nothing new to report for the deck. Sadly, MTG hasn't been a big player in my life recently due to lack of a playgroup. New sets look like fun!
I'm open to discussing possible additions from the new sets but nothing has popped out at me.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Thanks for all this threat, I learn a lot here and could make my deck with the idea of "Handcycling" that my playgroup like in general. It's many times a symmetrical effect and anyone complains. For now my playgroup enjoy the deck and don't are afraid of it be to "powerful", they all run powerful decks too.
Do you even think in Dig Through Time in your deck? Many time you can play it for the cost of 4 or 5 and delve 3 or 4 unimportant graveyard cards like some fetch or lands and go deep and see the next seven cards and choose two. What do you think about it?
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
I also wanted to encourage anybody who was on the fence about Intuition being worth the price tag. It is very, very good in this deck. With Dream Halls or Omniscience out, drawing Intuition is basically GG. Intuition searching Enter The Infinite, any 2 recursion spells just ends the game on the spot. With a recursion spell or Snapcaster Mage in hand, it is a double Demonic Tutor at instant speed. It just fits perfectly into the game-plan for this deck to the point that I would consider it essential, even over a lot of the broken artifact acceleration.
Good luck in your future games everybody! Please let me know if you have any similar experiences or any suggestions to share. My list for reference: http://deckbox.org/sets/923343
I like Dig through Time and I will likely be finding a spot for it.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I haven't run Fact or Fiction in this list yet, but I know from my experiences in Cube that FoF and DTT are best friends. Glad to see Evacuation pick up a spot in your list. I have been running it over Chaos Warp in my list because my meta is already very hostile to Artifacts and Enchantments, meaning I was usually only Chaos Warping commanders. With the rules change, Evacuation just seems better. I played a game last week where I was very behind and very close to dead but an EOT Evacutaion allowed me to untap and cast Rhystic Study and Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind to get me back into the game.
I play Sapphire Medallion in my Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir deck, and it is, of course, the bees' knees. I wonder if it is worth the swap here and am interested to hear your reports after some time has passed. For now, I think I will stick with the Izzet Signet and see how it goes. I will definitely try out cutting Past in Flames for FoF though. I agree we need the velocity in this deck to find our pieces ASAP or die by creature swarm. The combination of FoF and Evacuation is a pretty big upgrade for the list defensively, without having to commit permanents like Propaganda to the board.
Seems like a good set of changes overall and I'm excited to hear how it works for you.
Because my paper deck is lacking a lot of the high dollar power cards, it runs a bit slower. In addition to what I'm running in the Primer, I also have Blasphemous Act, Devastation Tide, and Boomerang slotted in right now.
Chaos Warp is a good answer (less so with the rule change), but I've wondered if another counterspell might be give us more versatility still.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
We can set up a miracle casting of RtS pretty reliably - therefore it's a nice tutor target in the early game - both Personal Tutor and Mystical Tutor can grab it. It can be recurred with our instant/sorcery recursion spells if needed.
Memory Jar can be tutored for directly to hand with Fabricate and recurred indefinitely with Academy Ruins. The nice thing about Jar is that it gives us unfair card advantage because our opponents don't get to keep their hands. This is pretty huge now that Leyline of Anticipation is out. It is however targetable by artifact removal. You might say you can just tap in response, but a lot of the time, you won't have enough mana to use the cards you get until your next turn.
What's your verdict?
While we're on the subject of artifacts, I'm thinking about swapping in Tezzeret the Seeker again in place of Fabricate. While at 5cmc the planeswalker is significantly slower, the ability to get out multiple ramp pieces is pretty great. And now that Grim Monolith and Mana Vault are both maindecked, the untapping is very attractive.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Tezzeret the Seeker is a card I have been considering in all of my blue lists since the announcement of the reprint in MM15. I like him, but I'm not sure if I would cut Fabricate for him. We can more easily recur Fabricate and walkers tend to draw a lot of aggro in my group. If we want untapping, I think Teferi, Temporal Archmage is potentially more powerful.
Tezzeret the Seeker is pretty awesome. I like him a lot and I'm never really sad to see him. Like ever. He tutors AND functions as ramp. And occasionally kills people with his ultimate. I think that's a good swap. I agree with izzetgood, though, I like running both him and Fabricate. It adds redundancy to the deck in finding those important artifact ramp pieces and other utility cards. However, looking at your list, I don't know if that redundancy is needed. It doesn't seem like there are too many artifact cards that you would want to find consistently every game. I could be wrong though.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager