I don't see a voltron package working very well with Niv. Especially with the long game control build in mind. Rowan, you mentioned you're thinking of getting rid of the extra turn spells. I could see getting rid of them for Day's Undoing + Leyline of Anticipation. Keeping one of the extra turn spells in may be beneficial just for good ramp really. To get ahead.
While I think Ivory Tower is a cool card to have in the deck, I think its a little to cute. I've played quite a few games with the previous changes mentioned and while the deck is still a lot of fun to play and still quite good, its a lot harder to win without comboing out so quickly. I've had Ivory Tower out for a lot of the time and it really doesn't gain us that much life. Having Alhammarret's Archive out with it is quite rare and its simply not worth tutoring for (Ivory tower) to hopefully gain double the life on our upkeep. If its effect was on end step I think it would be a lot better, but usually we may gain 3 life. That's my experience with it so far. I'll continue to test it but its not looking so promising for me anyways.
Thanks for the review of Ivory Tower. I tend to agree with you but I will need to test it more. What do you guys think of Basilisk Collar instead? Besides being a source of a potentially ridiculous amount of lifegain it can be a nasty removal engine. Don't forget we can equip it to Trinket Mage!!
I'd tend to agree with Sky God. I like the ideas of adding some lifelink but I just don't know how effective it is. The less explosive, less combo Niv control deck is certainly welcomed by my playgroup, but they still run pretty decent decks and in multiplayer its quite challenging to actually win without going explosive combo. The longer the game is generally the harder it is to keep an entire table under control without dying. My playgroup isn't the most competitive thats for sure, but I can only imagine how much harder it would be to win in an extremely competitive meta with a less combo Niv build.
Now I know I mentioned Time Warp like spells being taken out in favor of other extra goodies, but I cannot stress how crucial they were to staying in the game last weekend (So I take back what I said) Especially if Niv isn't going to win so quickly, extra turns are survivability, ramp, and a good way to setup for the coming turns. If my friends don't like getting killed so quickly with a very explosive Niv Mizzet build, then they can suck it up while I take an extra turn or two instead with a more long game control approach.
One thing I can think of is to add a single storm finisher with Mizzix's mastery. I don't want Niv to be a storm deck but I feel it could be a nice 1-2 punch. If you overload Mizzix's Mastery its pretty much game over anyways but just in case you can't get there, a single storm card could be the ticket.
The longer the games go on, the more board wipe-like effects I want. Devastation Tide/Blasphemous Act effects are needed in my meta and I may add them in myself as its very meta dependent.
I very much look forward to your primer overhaul Rowan.
Adding to my other post, Forcefield is always an option. Obviously a very expensive card but if your playgroup allows it, the collectors edition isn't outrageous. That will most certantly help us stay alive but it is a mana sink.
I also think Ætherize is something to strongly consider.
After a lot of games I've gone back to the more combo like Niv-Mizzet list that you have posted on the front page. Unless you've been able to make it work with the changes you've made Rowan, that's what I'll be playing for now. Its quite difficult to win with 3+ opponents becoming more and more of a threat as the game goes on. Playing a longer control focused version is certainly cool but I win very few games now and I'm not even part of an extremely competitive meta. Maybe that's just me though.
Yeah. I've kept a single copy of curiosity in my deck as a finisher. The fact of the matter, is that at my LGS, Niv draws way too much hate. He basically becomes prime target numero uno as soon as he drops into play and we don't generate enough protection on the board to save us from being completely overran late game. I think an infinite is REQUIRED for our deck. I just try to minimize the amount of infinite combos, it feels like playing softball sometimes, but the other players find it more fun.
I'd love to play a 100% Niv Mizzet list but I don't because I know it would be to good for my playgroup. I don't run any curiosity combos but I keep the long game "going off combos" in there. Omniscience and all that. I honestly feel as a long game control kind of deck, that new Jori En, Ruin Diver would be better suited for it. Not to mention Jori En wont be hated out nearly as much. I say just stick with the more combo like list if Niv is going to be your commander in general as I haven't had much luck running it long game control as Niv still gets hated out. I'd still love to see Rowans list though. Maybe he's had some luck. I'm no deckbuilder.
The new Chandra, Flamecaller seems interesting. Its a board wipe when we need it to be, or a repeatable wheel if we can keep her alive. Something I'm going to test for sure.
My aversion to planeswalkers in this deck remains. Flamecaller doesn't appeal to me because of the mana investment. I'm more inclined to swap in an additional counterspell or cheap draw spell.
I don't have an answer yet for the combo/control conundrum. I hope to attend some tournaments soon and have something a little more substantial to say based on experience. But what I'm gathering is "why run Firemind if you aren't running the associated combos?" Great question!
It sounds like running Firemind as our commander makes a non-combo build difficult due to excess hate which I totally understand, and there are definitely other less assuming izzet commanders out there now more suited to a late game control approachJori En, Ruin Diver being foremost in my mind for efficiency. Arjun, the Shifting Flame is also intriguing to me because he's spot on theme. I'll probably pick up a few of these cards and give em a run. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius is also pretty solid IMO if you want to stick with ole Nivvy.
There are a lot of options here, and I think the right one depends on your personal preferences. I have a lot of loyalty to Firemind for sentimental reasons and I just love the elegance of his ability. With a lot new cards out there now, I'm curious to see what happens next.
I also really like what you mentioned doing to the deck in November with the few changes....
Mystic confluence for Chaos Warp definitely! Its such a nutty card. Mizzix's Mastery has to go in. I've been playing with it and its another auto win pretty much. I'd probably cut Recoup for it like you mentioned earlier. Memory Jar for Mindmoil I fully support as well. Mindmoil got there sometimes but I feel Memory Jar is more consistent and just helpful.
I've never liked Helm of Awakening as I've never ever needed it and it just helps out my opponents. Been running a mana rock in its place.
The other changes you mentioned you might try I was not to fond of. Those are just my preferences though. I didn't like cutting down the great wheels like Reforge the Soul for something like Tezzeret the Seeker either.
The new mulligan rules change the way the deck plays now. I used mulligan almost everything except for cheap hand improvement, ramp and a wheel. I would often go down to six card hands because I knew I wouldn't have time to play some of the cards in my hand anyway before I used a wheel. Now with the new mulligan rules we can't shape our hands as well as we used to and the deck definitely lost some of it's explosiveness. How is everyone else doing? What kind of hands are you keeping? I tend to keep hands that have at least one piece of ramp and some hand improvement or disruption.
It would be really cool if we could see this deck piloted by the master. If you want to and have the time it would be nice if you could record yourself piloting the deck!
Hi Rowan! If you're running Mox Opal, have you considered dropping 1x Island and 1x Mountain for Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace? They die to artifact hate, but at the same time, increase your chances of nailing an effective T1/T2 Mox Opal and outpacing the early hate anyway. And, not much sucks more than a dead Mox Opal in an opening hand so a little extra vulnerability might well be worth it!
In other news.... I'm currently working on a new Blue-Red deck, not as a replacement to Niv-Mizzet, but something quite a bit different - hope to have a good post up in the next few months!
Looking at your card choices I believe there are strictly better options that are still cheap. For instance Commander's Sphere is a strictly better Izzet Cluestone and Dissolve a strictly better Cancel. I also believe that there are better, more efficient choices for artifact ramp.
I see that you are running most of the Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind infinite combos, if you would like to add another may I suggest Tandem Lookout? He can win really early if it isn't disruptive, play some ramp early, play Tandem Lookout, play Niv soulbonding them together then attack an open player with Tandem Lookout.
Just at glance I see a couple things, you are missing hand improvement cards, missing some really good budget cards and missing a couple cards I consider very crucial to the decks core.
One thing that may help you is to categorize each card in your deck like Rowan has done in his deck list, this will help you lay out approximately how much of each card type you should include. ie) Hand improvement, counters, ramp, etc.
These choices are very good because they are at instant speed meaning you can hold up mana for counters and if you don't spend that mana on counters you can cast these hand improvements.
They are just good cards that can be added to the deck at a low cost.
Lastly I believe these next cards are too good to leave out but are a little more pricey, if you do not want to spend the money right now these are some cards you should get first. (In no specific order) Consecrated Sphinx - This card is a powerhouse that doesn't need an explanation. Intuition - This card usually wins you the game and it's at instant speed. Pact of Negation - Combo protection, when you tap out to draw your library you want to make sure you can counter any of your opponent's tricks. Mana Vault & Chrome Mox - These mana rocks help to produce mana after you tap out to draw your library usually ensuring a same turn win. Omniscience & Show and Tell - These two cards packaged together allow you to get those really early wins.
Hey fellow gizmo-mancers,
First of all thanks to OP, I wasn't aware how much raw power this deck could have until I read this thread.
Secondly, has Brutal Expulsion been considered? Has that rare line shared with Mindbreak Trap and Venser that allows it dealing with uncounterable spells, plus the whole colorless thing. Our favorite Dragon Wizard is one of the few commanders privileged with its use.
Brutal Expulsion seems pretty weak for its four cost price tag and I would not want to take out anything currently in the list in order to fit this in because our other options are simply stronger.
Hey folks, thanks for your continued support and interest in the deck! I'm very very pleased to see these modern masters spoilers. Holy mother of god! Should make this deck a bit more affordable.
Sky God, thanks for answering questions in my absence. I agree with what you've said I will consider making a video for the deck.
It's been a while since there has been activity in here.
With the new set coming out I was wondering what people thought about putting any new cards into the deck.
One of the cards with the most potential is Shreds of Sanity, it will often be a better Call to Mind and I think that I will make a one for one swap for it.
It's been a while since there has been activity in here.
With the new set coming out I was wondering what people thought about putting any new cards into the deck.
One of the cards with the most potential is Shreds of Sanity, it will often be a better Call to Mind and I think that I will make a one for one swap for it.
What does everyone else think?
I feel like both of those cards are inferior to Mystic Retrieval, which I don't even have enough room in my list to run anymore.
While I think Ivory Tower is a cool card to have in the deck, I think its a little to cute. I've played quite a few games with the previous changes mentioned and while the deck is still a lot of fun to play and still quite good, its a lot harder to win without comboing out so quickly. I've had Ivory Tower out for a lot of the time and it really doesn't gain us that much life. Having Alhammarret's Archive out with it is quite rare and its simply not worth tutoring for (Ivory tower) to hopefully gain double the life on our upkeep. If its effect was on end step I think it would be a lot better, but usually we may gain 3 life. That's my experience with it so far. I'll continue to test it but its not looking so promising for me anyways.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Its upside doesn't justify its huge weakness of needing your commander.
Now I know I mentioned Time Warp like spells being taken out in favor of other extra goodies, but I cannot stress how crucial they were to staying in the game last weekend (So I take back what I said) Especially if Niv isn't going to win so quickly, extra turns are survivability, ramp, and a good way to setup for the coming turns. If my friends don't like getting killed so quickly with a very explosive Niv Mizzet build, then they can suck it up while I take an extra turn or two instead with a more long game control approach.
One thing I can think of is to add a single storm finisher with Mizzix's mastery. I don't want Niv to be a storm deck but I feel it could be a nice 1-2 punch. If you overload Mizzix's Mastery its pretty much game over anyways but just in case you can't get there, a single storm card could be the ticket.
Oh and Hedron Archive has caught my attention. It almost seems like a direct upgrade to Thran Dynamo? It seems really really good. Is Mana Confluence better then City of Brass?
The longer the games go on, the more board wipe-like effects I want. Devastation Tide/Blasphemous Act effects are needed in my meta and I may add them in myself as its very meta dependent.
I very much look forward to your primer overhaul Rowan.
I also think Ætherize is something to strongly consider.
My Firemind deck.
My aversion to planeswalkers in this deck remains. Flamecaller doesn't appeal to me because of the mana investment. I'm more inclined to swap in an additional counterspell or cheap draw spell.
I don't have an answer yet for the combo/control conundrum. I hope to attend some tournaments soon and have something a little more substantial to say based on experience. But what I'm gathering is "why run Firemind if you aren't running the associated combos?" Great question!
It sounds like running Firemind as our commander makes a non-combo build difficult due to excess hate which I totally understand, and there are definitely other less assuming izzet commanders out there now more suited to a late game control approachJori En, Ruin Diver being foremost in my mind for efficiency. Arjun, the Shifting Flame is also intriguing to me because he's spot on theme. I'll probably pick up a few of these cards and give em a run. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius is also pretty solid IMO if you want to stick with ole Nivvy.
There are a lot of options here, and I think the right one depends on your personal preferences. I have a lot of loyalty to Firemind for sentimental reasons and I just love the elegance of his ability. With a lot new cards out there now, I'm curious to see what happens next.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Mystic confluence for Chaos Warp definitely! Its such a nutty card.
Mizzix's Mastery has to go in. I've been playing with it and its another auto win pretty much. I'd probably cut Recoup for it like you mentioned earlier.
Memory Jar for Mindmoil I fully support as well. Mindmoil got there sometimes but I feel Memory Jar is more consistent and just helpful.
I've never liked Helm of Awakening as I've never ever needed it and it just helps out my opponents. Been running a mana rock in its place.
The other changes you mentioned you might try I was not to fond of. Those are just my preferences though. I didn't like cutting down the great wheels like Reforge the Soul for something like Tezzeret the Seeker either.
Here is my full list for reference: Niv-Mizzet
My two most consistent win conditions are casting Mizzix's Mastery targeting Enter the Infinite in the graveyard and the Sensei's Divining Top, Helm of Awakening and Future Sight combo. For this reason I am a fan of Helm of Awakening and I did cut Mindmoil but for Tezzeret the Seeker instead of Memory Jar, keeping in Reforge the Soul. I also run Trinket Mage because I most commonly search up Sol Ring, Sensei's Divining Top, and Helm of Awakening with Fabricate and Trinket Mage can find two of the three. What are others most common win conditions?
The new mulligan rules change the way the deck plays now. I used mulligan almost everything except for cheap hand improvement, ramp and a wheel. I would often go down to six card hands because I knew I wouldn't have time to play some of the cards in my hand anyway before I used a wheel. Now with the new mulligan rules we can't shape our hands as well as we used to and the deck definitely lost some of it's explosiveness. How is everyone else doing? What kind of hands are you keeping? I tend to keep hands that have at least one piece of ramp and some hand improvement or disruption.
Also if you have any suggestions on deck improvement please let me know! I most commonly play against Sliver Overlord combo/toolbox, Scion of the Ur-Dragon Hermit Druid combo and Sharuum the Hegemon combo.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
It would be really cool if we could see this deck piloted by the master. If you want to and have the time it would be nice if you could record yourself piloting the deck!
In other news.... I'm currently working on a new Blue-Red deck, not as a replacement to Niv-Mizzet, but something quite a bit different - hope to have a good post up in the next few months!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Looking at your card choices I believe there are strictly better options that are still cheap. For instance Commander's Sphere is a strictly better Izzet Cluestone and Dissolve a strictly better Cancel. I also believe that there are better, more efficient choices for artifact ramp.
I see that you are running most of the Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind infinite combos, if you would like to add another may I suggest Tandem Lookout? He can win really early if it isn't disruptive, play some ramp early, play Tandem Lookout, play Niv soulbonding them together then attack an open player with Tandem Lookout.
Just at glance I see a couple things, you are missing hand improvement cards, missing some really good budget cards and missing a couple cards I consider very crucial to the decks core.
One thing that may help you is to categorize each card in your deck like Rowan has done in his deck list, this will help you lay out approximately how much of each card type you should include. ie) Hand improvement, counters, ramp, etc.
As for hand improvement I would suggest the following: Fact or Fiction, Impulse, Brainstorm, Careful Consideration and Thirst for Knowledge
These choices are very good because they are at instant speed meaning you can hold up mana for counters and if you don't spend that mana on counters you can cast these hand improvements.
Some really good budget cards I had in mind are these: Merchant Scroll, Trinket Mage, Reforge the Soul and Day's Undoing
They are just good cards that can be added to the deck at a low cost.
Lastly I believe these next cards are too good to leave out but are a little more pricey, if you do not want to spend the money right now these are some cards you should get first. (In no specific order)
Consecrated Sphinx - This card is a powerhouse that doesn't need an explanation.
Intuition - This card usually wins you the game and it's at instant speed.
Pact of Negation - Combo protection, when you tap out to draw your library you want to make sure you can counter any of your opponent's tricks.
Mana Vault & Chrome Mox - These mana rocks help to produce mana after you tap out to draw your library usually ensuring a same turn win.
Omniscience & Show and Tell - These two cards packaged together allow you to get those really early wins.
Good luck!
First of all thanks to OP, I wasn't aware how much raw power this deck could have until I read this thread.
Secondly, has Brutal Expulsion been considered? Has that rare line shared with Mindbreak Trap and Venser that allows it dealing with uncounterable spells, plus the whole colorless thing. Our favorite Dragon Wizard is one of the few commanders privileged with its use.
Sky God, thanks for answering questions in my absence. I agree with what you've said I will consider making a video for the deck.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
With the new set coming out I was wondering what people thought about putting any new cards into the deck.
One of the cards with the most potential is Shreds of Sanity, it will often be a better Call to Mind and I think that I will make a one for one swap for it.
What does everyone else think?
I feel like both of those cards are inferior to Mystic Retrieval, which I don't even have enough room in my list to run anymore.
Except now I will probably switch out Call to Mind for Shreds of Sanity.