I'm curious if there is any reason why you're not running Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace since you have a lot of artifact tutors and I would think that every little bit helps when running Mox Opal. Does the amount of artifact hate in your meta make having artifact lands more of a drawback?
Hey! Just wanted to say "great primer" and this inspired me to build my own Mizzet deck. I had a few questions.
1. What are your thoughts on Past in Flames in this deck?
2. Do you think Mind Over Matter & Ulamog/Kozilek/(Insert shuffle grave effect here) fits or is it too cute?
3. What are your thoughts on leyline of anticipation or vedalken orrery?
@DarklingScribe: Yes, I find they die too often to artifact removal. Especially the likes of Return to Dust or Austere Command.
What are your thoughts on Past in Flames in this deck?
I recently removed it from the Primer because it's too mana intensive for a deck this competitive. Cards like Recoup or Call to Mind are better draws 90% of the time. The kind of big flashy things that Past or Flames enables tend to be win-more in my experience. It would probably be fine in a slower/less competitive meta.
2. Do you think Mind Over Matter & Ulamog/Kozilek/(Insert shuffle grave effect here) fits or is it too cute?
UUUU is a bit hard to manage even with all the duals. It's a bad draw early game. In general I don't really like the infinite combos that rely on Niv to work because creature removal is common.
Ulamog and Kozilek are definitely not worth the slots. Terrible early topdecks. We don't really want our graveyard shuffled anyway because we have the recursion stuff going on. Because our primary win con is Inner Fire + Comet Storm we don't require infinite draw off Curiosity.
3. What are your thoughts on leyline of anticipation or vedalken orrery?
I don't think they justify a whole slot in fast competitive combo build. Yes, they make the deck better. Yes, they work awesome with hand-cycling and counterspells... but in the end this is a combo deck, not a control deck. The counterspells are there for combo insurance as well as anti-combo hate. I want something like Quicken that cantrips but that I can get a bit more use out of. If it had Flashback or even Retrace I would definitely run it.
Thanks for your interest folks! I've been on a bit of a hiatus from MtG these last few months. I'd really like to delve back in and take give some of these new cards a test run.
Alhammarret's Archive appears to be a clear-cut upgrade from Thought Reflection For 2 less and no colors I think I can forgive it for not giving me an extra card on my draw step. While this is certainly no life-gain deck the first ability rarely hurts.
Day's Undoing - I will most likely be running this one. A draw 7 for 3 cmc is excellent. What's funny is that in combo with something like Leyine of Anticipation this is an exiling counterspell.
This is... omg... everything I wanted Past in Flames to be and more. Mystic Retrieval will be retired from the primer!! Can you imagine using this to cast Enter the Infinite? Just discard it early to Faithless Looting and you have yourself a disgustingly easy win. Of course hand cycling, tutors, and removal spells will be the most typical. "without paying its mana cost...." WHHAAAT??
Overloaded.... <3<3<3
This card alone is enough to get me excited about Magic again.
I've been gone so long I think I missed a few sets. Anything else worthy of note?
Hi Rowan! Great work on the primer! I'm relatively new to commander in general, and I had occasion to pilot Niv-mizzet a few weeks ago (borrowed a deck for some casual play). It was so much fun, I knew this should be my next project. I do have a couple of cards I'd like to run by you.
Thought Vessel - I saw that you addressed Library of Leng, and cards of that ilk in the primer. Still, Thought Vessel caught my eye because it does double duty, functioning as a mana rock while allowing you to hold cards in hand.
Mystic Confluence - It's no replacement for Cryptic Command, though it is slightly easier to cast. It's more versatile than your average counter spell, and it cantrips (sometimes more than once).
Laboratory Maniac - The Comet Storm/Inner Fire combo is a solid win con. I was thinking it may be worth it to include a win condition that renders the number of opponents irrelevant. Laboratory Maniac has always seemed a little too cute to be viable to me, but if we resolve Enter the Infinite first, or the Curiosity combo, and the entire deck is in hand, we should be able to protect him.
My metagame tends to be large groups, 4 to 6 player games, with life gain a major theme. Are there any suggestions, strategies or adjustments you would suggest?
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Thought Vessel might be fine for a budget build but there are much better options available to us. Remember that for the Primer I've used the very best possible cards regardless of budget. When you compare Thought Vessel to something like Grim Monolith in terms of ramp value, there is no contest.
Mystic Confluence - I am a huge fan of flexible counterspells. This one might indeed find a spot. I was thinking of swapping out Chaos Warp finally now that commander tucking is no longer possible so that frees up a spot for some additional removal or counterspell.
My primary argument against Laboratory Maniac is that it cannot be easily tutored for since it's not an instant or a sorcery, nor does it work well with stuff like Snapcaster Mage or Call to Mind. High synergy is my goal. Also, the maniac dies to instant spot removal cast in response to the draw, which I don't really like.
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One card I'm on the fence about these days is Mindmoil. It's almost always a backup win con, rather than something that feels integral. For streamlining purposes I've considered swapping it for redundancy in other areas, most likely removal/control. Even though it doesn't trigger damage from Niv, Scroll Rack is just soooo much better and it's tutorable.
A card I'm really liking is Mind's Eye. This deck tends to do better with a hand fattening approach. A fat hand just means more options and more protection. I will likely swap this for Reforge the Soul.
Tezzeret the Seeker will likely be going back in as a tutor for some of the key artifacts. It's one of the few planeswalkers I can justify running because the tutor effect is worth the cost. (I'm assuming I'm only going to get one activation out any given planeswalker). I will likely be swapping Fabricate but one of the lesser handcycling cards such as Tolarian Winds is also a possibily as I'm leaning away from a heavy handcycling theme.
I'm considering the possibility of adding Ivory Tower or even Basilisk Collar for some life gain. So often, I get hated out early because of a little damage here and there. Before I know it, I'm down to 2 life and don't have much of a chance. Even +5 or +10 life might be enough to turn the tides in my favor. The nice thing about both of these artifacts is that they are easily tutorable. I'm definitely leaning toward Ivory Tower, however Collar works so nicely with Niv it's tempting - however it of course relies on him being in play.
Welcome back, comrade. I think that your Niv-Mizzet list is pretty awesome and I gave the cards that I had for this deck to a player in my playgroup and now he runs basically a similar version to your list. And it's really quite powerful, when he's playing it right. Sometimes the pilot doesn't justify the deck, and for the Niv-Mizzet deck I gave him that's unfortunately the case...
Anyways, I offer my opinions on some of the card choices you're debating:
Alhammerret's Archive can probably replace the Thought Reflection. It's lower CMC, more easily tutored, and Consecrated Sphinx offers you the redundancy that you're looking for. I would suggest the clean swamp for these reasons.
If you're looking for a control piece that has been absolutely great for my Memnarch list, try Vedalken Shackles. I cannot describe how many times this card has stopped all sorts of nonsense from happening because people don't want to cast a creature into an open shackles. I find that most of the creatures that I'm concerned with have power 3 or less, so Shackles ALWAYS has something to steal. Further, it only gets better as the game progresses and has additional synergy with Academy Ruins should someone blow it up. And it's great tempo to steal someone's dude to block another dude swinging at you. That will teach them right to mess with Dragons...
I assume you're already running Evacuation. Have you considered Mizzium Mortars? It has the flexibility to be pinpoint removal early on in the game against pesky creature based combo decks and can be overloaded as a pretty effective boardsweeper in the late game. I used to run it in my Kaalia list, before I gave it to my brother so he could have a deck to play in our cutthroat meta, and that card is just fantastic. Kills Animar, Damia, Azami, Krenko, Anafenza, Gaddock Teeg, the list goes on. I would highly recommend it.
Been playing Niv for a couple years now. First time I've seen a primer for him and I'm loving it! Looking at the previous post, I can see how Tezzeret can be a good inclusion. He might be put in over Teferi, temporal archmage
I'm surprised that Dack Fayden doesn't seem like a consideration. He's a faithless looting every turn, plus you get to steal your opponents sol rings ;D
Vedalken Shackles - I really tend to lean toward instant and sorcery based removal since they work so well with my recursion cards. I also prefer sweepers since they are more efficient and non-targeted. Cyclonic Rift is the epitome of what I'm looking for in a removal spell, at least for this deck. It's so good I'm surprised it hasn't been banned yet. *knocks on wood* For those reasons Propaganda is probably not worth considering either.
I want to like Mizzium Mortars, but again, next to Cyclonic Rift it's lackluster at that mana cost. Blasphemous Act or Devastation Tide will almost always be better because of the efficiency - even though the reduced costs are not guaranteed.
Dack Fayden is worth a try. The artifact theft is actually worth 1UR. I have a prejudice against planeswalkers as you may have noticed, sometimes unfounded, other times absolutely justified. I don't like them for a lot of reasons. They don't work well with my tutor and recursion cards.
-1 Mindmoil +1 Memory Jar - With the artifact tutors, I think I can make Memory Jar work well for me. I will miss the flashiness of Mindmoil and I might slot it back in at some point, but for now Memory Jar I think is the better choice.
-1 Tolarian Winds +1 Tezzeret the Seeker - I decided to keep Fabricate as I'm so heavy on artifacts and many of them tend to be crucial combo pieces. I'm leaning away from handcycling as I'd more often rather have a fat hand.
-1 Reforge the Soul +1 Mind's Eye - Fat hand = game control. More and more I'm finding that giving my opponents new hands doesn't work out for me.
-1 Recoup +1 Mizzix's Mastery - Mizzix's Mastery is definitely going in, I'm just not 100% on what to swap it for. Recoup's limit on sorceries is a bit annoying and I'm reluctant to swap out either Call to Mind or Mystic Retrieval because they work so well. They are more mana-friendly meaning I don't have to cast the recurred card immediately.
-1 Mox Opal +1 IIvory Tower - This idea kind of game out of left field but let me explain: My playstyle has changed somewhat I think since when I first started playing commander. More and more I tend to walk the line of being a periphery threat rather than ramping hard and going for that explosive turn 3 or 4 win. I take more pleasure in stopping those wins. So you might say I've leaned away from combo and more into a control mindset. I enjoy the interaction of the game. That isn't to say that I'm less competitive. On the contrary, I find that in multiplayer it's better to go for the timely diplomatic wins, rather than the early ones to set the stage for later games. When people know you can win early they are more likely to hate you out because they want to play their own game. So with this in mind, some lifegain would be really nice. Mox Opal tends to be a big money famous card that draws hate and sometimes it doesn't actually do anything for me at all. Ivory Tower is a little threat that offers me some cushion for the long haul while comboing nicely with the new Alhammarret's Archive.
I feel that 3 is enough. They all cost 5 mana or more and therefore not perfect cards for my opening hand. I prefer my spells to be good early, mid, AND late game. I've been running Temporal Trespass in my paper deck and I like it a lot but I've got Temporal Manipulation slotted in the primer now because it's a bit more consistent and can be recurred. The recursion cards mean I can chain Time Warps pretty reliably if I need to later in the game.
I don't include Niv-Mizzet in the decklist so there should only be 99. I'm not sure what happened to Sapphire Medallion but I think I'm going to leave it out for now. We really want to be getting Helm of Awakening into play since it's a piece of our infinite draw combo.
I'm reconsidering Archaeomancer and Venser, Shaper Savant. I still really like the interaction they have with Evacuation and Riptide Laboratory. Need to do more testing. I will be entering into some commander tourneys soon so I will get the opportunities I need to hone this deck.
Thanks again for all your support and suggestions!
I'm considering taking this deck in a new direction.
The more I play, the more I find myself favoring late game control than the early game win. I find casting the removal and control spells more enjoyable than the cheaty game winners like Show and Tell and Curiosity. This is largely due to the multiplayer environment where diplomacy often wins more games than your turn 2 or 3 infinite combo.
This is because 1. As much as I enjoy winning ultra early from time to time, other people do not enjoy losing to these kind of wins.
2. when people are aware that my library contains infinite combos and other very degenerate synergies they are much more likely to try to hate me out of the game early. The game becomes for me, "win super early or die horribly"
3. I get a kick out of stopping someone else's "unstoppable" deck A LOT. There's nothing like casting a turn 1 Mindbreak Trap or Force of Will to stop someone from comboing out. Some hyper competitive builds just don't recover from that.
4. The longer control oriented game seems to be the safer and more competitive route to take anyway because I often find myself scarce a counter or a removal spell when I need it most. As long as I control the board, I control the game - it doesn't matter how late I win. I actually enjoy watching other decks play out and do their thing a bit before destroying them
With that said the following cards are inching their way to the chopping block:
Curiosity - It's a dead card without Niv in play. I hate that. And let's face it, nobody likes to see this card. It feels like a hollow win when I can pull it off. Often, i find myself cycling it away. I would almost always rather have a counter in my hand.
Show and Tell - It's obvious that Omniscience is the best thing to put down with this, and I can tutor for it pretty early with Long-Term Plans but it's an ugly play. While Show and Tell can be fun for other players and occasionally backfires in interesting ways - it's ultimately very much a win-early kind of card that draws hate.
Enter the Infinite - This is a stupid card. I wish this had never been printed. It's bad to have in my opening hand but well worth it if I can cast it for free later on. I despise cards that say "I win" so blatantly without intelligence, planning, or synergy behind it. Bad card design.
Dream Halls or Omniscience - out of these two, Omniscience would likely come out first because 1. Its cost is horrendous and 2. It's just as stupid as Enter the Infinite, and by that I mean it takes no intelligence to play effectively. Dream Halls at least makes the game more interesting for everyone at the table.
Temporal Manipulation, Time Warp, Temporal Mastery - I'm actually considering swapping these for control. The extra turn cards fit in more with the win early strategy and they cost more than I'd like. I get tired of seeing people roll their eyes at these cards.
What would I slot in? Well, I've been thinking I need to maindeck some artifact hate. Once again blue offers us superior options in Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild. Non-targeted and they ignore indestructibility. I can also tutor for them with Merchant Scroll. Each of these has significant perks. Hurkyl's Recall is much more flexible mainly in that I don't have to bounce my own stuff if I don't want to (sometimes I'd want to with stuff like Mana Vault and Sol Ring or even Alhammaret's Archive.) The cycling ability on Rebuild is just fantastic and sometimes the global effect is preferable.
Leyline of Anticipation of course is perpetually on my maybe list. Day's Undoing gave me a little more motivation to run it. I know it's not a 3 mana Time Stop but it's still an instant speed Timetwister. It fits in well with my new late game control strategy.
+1 for the Blasts. My meta is so blue-saturated that they are always a counterspell or vindicate when I need them to work. Seriously. The only person in my meta who doesn't like Blue is my brother, who plays mostly Naya colored decks or some variation of those colors. Everyone else, does. So I recommend them highly. And in competitive metas, there will always be some Blue represented. I played them in Kaalia and playing against Animar with my build was a joke because of these spells. Ah, Kaalia. Too bad I enjoy Sedris Waste Not Combo more.
I think the general trend of moving towards more of a mid-range control is a good idea. My Tasigur deck and my Memnarch decks, my most competitive decks by far, have switched to mid-game control and it's been very effective for me. The way I built my decks is that they can take advantage of early game plays while still not sacrificing the late game control. I recommend keeping fast mana sources so that if you want to, so you can blow out your opponents with ridiculous late game plays in the early game, and making some of the cuts you've contemplated.
My top recommendation for you is to add an Azami package. The synergy with your general is obvious, lends very well to a long game control strategy, and overall can deflect some aggro your way by throwing some bodies for you to take advantage of. For ideas, check out my Memnarch Primer. I like what I play a lot. My wife doth call to me... I'll catch up with you later.
EDIT: Now that my wife's request is satisfied, I can finish my response. I think that including Enter the Infinite and Omniscience would be fun and can give you an I-Win button in the late game when you're finished letting people play their decks. I think that cutting the time spells is pretty reasonable. I would keep maybe Time Warp for flavor and because it's really quite good as a ramp piece.
Please, please, please reconsider Vedalken Shackles. I forgot that it was a card and now it's one of the cards I search for most frequently with Fabricate and Tezzeret the Seeker, sometimes even over Sol Ring. The ability to steal dudes indefinitely is really nice, it has great synergy with Academy Ruins and is just a great card overall. I forgot that it existed when I first started playing mono-Blue, and it's been a great addition. If you're looking for a more long-game control route, this is a card I cannot recommend strongly enough. As long as you have 4 Islands, you basically control every relevant creature or can threaten to do so.
I really like Venser, Shaper Savant, Arcane Denial, and Counterflux. Counterflux is nice because it's CMC 3 and has the ability to stop Storm combo decks in their tracks. Perhaps revamping your list to take advantage of Deadeye Navigator and Archaeomancer will also give you the late game control aspects you seem to enjoy.
Would you mind posting your current (or projected) paper list Rowan? I really like the sound of opting for a less wheel combo-centric build in favor of a more controlling one. After a year of playing Niv Mizzet I took the deck apart a few months ago because neither I nor my play group enjoy the deck in its current state. I've had my heart set on brewing a Mizzix token storm deck but maybe your build can reignite my love of the big bad Niv.
I'm a long time lurker, and the Niv-Mizzet deck you've made rowan is by far my favorite EDH deck I own. I've made my own changes to power the deck down a little. Funny enough, the changes you are making I made a while back myself just because my playgroup isn't an extremely competitive one. Keeping dream halls in is definitely worth it. Its a very powerful and albeit broken card, but its actually a ton of fun to play in multiplayer since it opens up so many options for your opponents as well. Just as you said. If you keep in Omniscience, while taking out show and tell and cards like Enter the Infinite, it isn't necessarily something that is overly overwhelming for opponents. The main way to get it down for me is dream halls (which I'm sure you are aware of) and its not necessarily ridiculously broken with show and tell out of the deck. If you can ramp into it by all means you deserve it. Now I don't run Mana Crypt or sol ring since Crypt is obscenely expensive and sol ring is banned in our playgroup so maybe its a lot easier to get it out super early which may still make it broken as hell but I still think its worth the slot even in a less cut throat Niv Mizzet Deck that isn't going to combo off so quickly.
Regardless, I'm very excited to see what you do with your more controlly Niv-Mizzet deck Rowan. Thanks for making this the best primer on this site.
benjameenbear, thanks for your suggestions. I don't think the Azami package is the path I want to take. It may very well work in a more creature-centric build like your Memnarch but I want this deck to be primarily non-creature based because I'm trying to optimize synergy with my instant/sorcery tutors and recursion cards. I like that Evacuation and All is Dust rarely hurt me. As far as non instant/sorcery based card draw is concerned, things like Mind's Eye, Rhystic Study, Memory Jar and the Future Sight/Sensei's Divining Top combo are more attractive to me because they are less susceptible to removal and generally more tutorable.
I don't feel that Vedalken Shackles is optimal for the deck. As is, I've only got 6 islands. In mono blue, I'd absolutely use it but here I'm skeptical.
Glokks One of things I really don't like about Omniscience and Enter the Infinite is how terrible they are to have in my opening hand due to their cost and exclusively late game value. I'd rather have an answer.
Jester's Cap effects is something that the mid range control version of the deck could probably benefit from. Extract doesn't hit has hard as Jester's Cap but is much more efficient. Consider that Cap takes 6 to use. by the time I have that much mana available the game might already be over.
Not sure if I like Wash Out or Devastation Tide more. What do you think? I'm a huge fan of selective board wipes at efficient costs. Tide is more of a hard reset and therefore a bit more reliable in dire situations.
I'm still on the fence with Mindmoil. I like how it's just an old fashioned win condition with the possibility of going infinite. If Inner Fire/Comet Storm is not available, it's nice to know I have a solid backup. However, my previous arguments against it remain.
Helm of Awakening is most likely coming out. I honestly don't really need it for the Top/Future Sight combo. "1: Draw a card." is already really good. The benefit the helm gives to my opponents isn't worth it IMO. It's laughable alongside Rhystic Study. I think Gilded Lotus is going to come back in this spot.
I'm a bit undecided on whether to swap out Tolarian Winds or Reforge the Soul. I think I need to keep at least one so that I can reliably fill my graveyard with recursion options. (Imagine dumping 10+ cards into your yard only to overload Mizzix's Mastery a turn later!)
This next batch of swaps is going to require a complete overhaul of the primer. I'm a lazy dragon and that's a daunting task, but here's updated swaps list for starters. What do you think?
-1 Helm of Awakening +1 Gilded Lotus - mana superiority is going to be more important than this combo. Going more mid-range control, my average cmc can stand to be increased a bit.
-1 Omniscience +1 Rebuild - I needed a solid answer for artifacts. Most competitive blue decks rely heavily upon them. The fact that this has cycling is superb.
-1 Reforge the Soul +1 Tezzeret the Seeker - I decided to keep Fabricate as I'm so heavy on artifacts and many of them tend to be crucial combo pieces. I'm leaning away from handcycling as I'd more often rather have a fat hand.
-1 Recoup +1 Mizzix's Mastery - Mizzix's Mastery is definitely going in, I'm just not 100% on what to swap it for. Recoup's limit on sorceries is a bit annoying and I'm reluctant to swap out either Call to Mind or Mystic Retrieval because they work so well. They are more mana friendly because I don't have to cast the recurred card immediately.
-1 Mox Opal +1 Ivory Tower - Shifting to more of a mid range combo/control build requires some lifegain IMO
-1 Show and Tell +1 Forbid - with the hand fattening approach Forbid becomes a lot more viable, especially with Dream Halls in play. Show and Tell is cheaty situational early win material.
-1 Curiosity +1 Extract - I'm going to need more answers for my opponent's combos. Outright exiling them from their libraries seems the most direct approach. Extract is the most efficient option and can be recurred.
-1 Enter the Infinite +1 Counterflux - I needed an uncounterable counterspell for those occasional counter spell wars. I like Counterflux because it's got better utility than most run of the mill 3 cmc counterspells.
You play Leyline over Orrery because of the chance of starting with it for free. That can win games. Otherwise, a deck like this doesn't need to play it that badly late game and tutoring Orrery is usually sub-optimal.
Just some quick thoughts:
-I like playing both Thought Reflection and Archive. But if you really only want one, Archive is the way to go.
-Counterflux is a top 5 counter in Izzet. Drain, Force, Swan Song, Trap, Flux
-Reforge the Soul is good, I'd try to find a way to put it back in while keeping Tezzy.
-If you really want to move away from quick wins and be more late game control, Mindmoil should stay in.
-I don't like Jar or Mind's Eye in anything blue.
Swan Song is quite good. I think it deserves a spot over Flusterstorm for versatility and reliability.
Mindmoil will probably stay in because it gives me some resiliency to my opponents' combo-control strategies.
I'm on the fence with Jar and Eye. Eye is vastly inferior to Rhystic Study or Consecrated Sphinx but it still works. I don't think it's really much better than Reforge the Soul, and certainly not better than the Future Sight/Top combo.
It's good to see this active again. I'm just getting back into magic after an 8 year hiatus. The guys that I have been playing with generally play commander or tiny leaders so using this guide I've been building my first commander deck. It's been a slow process as magic cards feel way more expensive than when I left the game. Luckily my group is pretty proxy friendly. Anyways, I've noticed that people really don't like losing to combo builds, I can see why you have been going away from the infinite combo kills. Another thing that I have noticed is that I get completely wrecked by the creature heavy decks. I've even been running Anger of the Gods, Pyroclasm, and Radiant Flames just to try and survive. Anyways, I love Niv as a commander but I've been thinking about jumping ship to the new Experience commander from Commander 2015. (S)He really feels like a better fit with the type of deck that you've been brewing, especially if we are getting away from the curiosity + Niv combo wins, even if I would prefer to be wielding a super-genius purple dragon. Do you ever feel that Niv isn't helping your most current build, win?
I guess you mean Mizzix of the Izmagnus. While I like the concept, it doesn't speak to me. As competitive as I am, flavor is a driving factor.
I find that with the mid range control build I'm casting Niv a bit more often and whittling away at people. And he's actually a pretty nice removal engine if you can get him to stick. If you want to commit to that route you could add Lightning Greaves and Basilisk Collar or even Clout of the Dominus. But my real answer is that I would still never use another commander for this deck. I love the way that Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind flawlessly represents what this deck does. And Mindmoil is honestly a pretty solid win con with Niv. If I can't get Niv to stick, there's always Inner Fire/Comet Storm.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius is worth some consideration though because he's better in a vacuum, i.e. if you have an empty hand. I would likely keep Dracogenius in my "sideboard" to use if I felt like it. He "draws" less hate because he's harder to combo with.
this might be completely janky and unnecessary but I want to ask anyways as I have been playing Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest and am thinking of switching over to the big Niv.
1. What are your thoughts on Past in Flames in this deck?
2. Do you think Mind Over Matter & Ulamog/Kozilek/(Insert shuffle grave effect here) fits or is it too cute?
3. What are your thoughts on leyline of anticipation or vedalken orrery?
I recently removed it from the Primer because it's too mana intensive for a deck this competitive. Cards like Recoup or Call to Mind are better draws 90% of the time. The kind of big flashy things that Past or Flames enables tend to be win-more in my experience. It would probably be fine in a slower/less competitive meta.
UUUU is a bit hard to manage even with all the duals. It's a bad draw early game. In general I don't really like the infinite combos that rely on Niv to work because creature removal is common.
Ulamog and Kozilek are definitely not worth the slots. Terrible early topdecks. We don't really want our graveyard shuffled anyway because we have the recursion stuff going on. Because our primary win con is Inner Fire + Comet Storm we don't require infinite draw off Curiosity.
I don't think they justify a whole slot in fast competitive combo build. Yes, they make the deck better. Yes, they work awesome with hand-cycling and counterspells... but in the end this is a combo deck, not a control deck. The counterspells are there for combo insurance as well as anti-combo hate. I want something like Quicken that cantrips but that I can get a bit more use out of. If it had Flashback or even Retrace I would definitely run it.
Thanks for your interest folks! I've been on a bit of a hiatus from MtG these last few months. I'd really like to delve back in and take give some of these new cards a test run.
Alhammarret's Archive appears to be a clear-cut upgrade from Thought Reflection For 2 less and no colors I think I can forgive it for not giving me an extra card on my draw step. While this is certainly no life-gain deck the first ability rarely hurts.
Day's Undoing - I will most likely be running this one. A draw 7 for 3 cmc is excellent. What's funny is that in combo with something like Leyine of Anticipation this is an exiling counterspell.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
This is... omg... everything I wanted Past in Flames to be and more. Mystic Retrieval will be retired from the primer!! Can you imagine using this to cast Enter the Infinite? Just discard it early to Faithless Looting and you have yourself a disgustingly easy win. Of course hand cycling, tutors, and removal spells will be the most typical. "without paying its mana cost...." WHHAAAT??
Overloaded.... <3<3<3
This card alone is enough to get me excited about Magic again.
I've been gone so long I think I missed a few sets. Anything else worthy of note?
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Thought Vessel - I saw that you addressed Library of Leng, and cards of that ilk in the primer. Still, Thought Vessel caught my eye because it does double duty, functioning as a mana rock while allowing you to hold cards in hand.
Mystic Confluence - It's no replacement for Cryptic Command, though it is slightly easier to cast. It's more versatile than your average counter spell, and it cantrips (sometimes more than once).
Laboratory Maniac - The Comet Storm/Inner Fire combo is a solid win con. I was thinking it may be worth it to include a win condition that renders the number of opponents irrelevant. Laboratory Maniac has always seemed a little too cute to be viable to me, but if we resolve Enter the Infinite first, or the Curiosity combo, and the entire deck is in hand, we should be able to protect him.
My metagame tends to be large groups, 4 to 6 player games, with life gain a major theme. Are there any suggestions, strategies or adjustments you would suggest?
RUG Canadian Threshold RUG
BRG Jund BRG
GRW Marath, Will of the Wild GRW
Thought Vessel might be fine for a budget build but there are much better options available to us. Remember that for the Primer I've used the very best possible cards regardless of budget. When you compare Thought Vessel to something like Grim Monolith in terms of ramp value, there is no contest.
Mystic Confluence - I am a huge fan of flexible counterspells. This one might indeed find a spot. I was thinking of swapping out Chaos Warp finally now that commander tucking is no longer possible so that frees up a spot for some additional removal or counterspell.
My primary argument against Laboratory Maniac is that it cannot be easily tutored for since it's not an instant or a sorcery, nor does it work well with stuff like Snapcaster Mage or Call to Mind. High synergy is my goal. Also, the maniac dies to instant spot removal cast in response to the draw, which I don't really like.
---------------------------------
One card I'm on the fence about these days is Mindmoil. It's almost always a backup win con, rather than something that feels integral. For streamlining purposes I've considered swapping it for redundancy in other areas, most likely removal/control. Even though it doesn't trigger damage from Niv, Scroll Rack is just soooo much better and it's tutorable.
A card I'm really liking is Mind's Eye. This deck tends to do better with a hand fattening approach. A fat hand just means more options and more protection. I will likely swap this for Reforge the Soul.
Tezzeret the Seeker will likely be going back in as a tutor for some of the key artifacts. It's one of the few planeswalkers I can justify running because the tutor effect is worth the cost. (I'm assuming I'm only going to get one activation out any given planeswalker). I will likely be swapping Fabricate but one of the lesser handcycling cards such as Tolarian Winds is also a possibily as I'm leaning away from a heavy handcycling theme.
I'm considering the possibility of adding Ivory Tower or even Basilisk Collar for some life gain. So often, I get hated out early because of a little damage here and there. Before I know it, I'm down to 2 life and don't have much of a chance. Even +5 or +10 life might be enough to turn the tides in my favor. The nice thing about both of these artifacts is that they are easily tutorable. I'm definitely leaning toward Ivory Tower, however Collar works so nicely with Niv it's tempting - however it of course relies on him being in play.
Alhammarret's Archive seems to be a really solid inclusion. I'm wondering if I'll just run it in addition to Thought Reflection or do a clean swap. Archive works nicely with Ivory Tower.
Although it isn't tutorable, Propoganda is something I've considered to alleviate some hate. Blasphemous Act or Devastation Tide are also on my mind.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Anyways, I offer my opinions on some of the card choices you're debating:
Alhammerret's Archive can probably replace the Thought Reflection. It's lower CMC, more easily tutored, and Consecrated Sphinx offers you the redundancy that you're looking for. I would suggest the clean swamp for these reasons.
If you're looking for a control piece that has been absolutely great for my Memnarch list, try Vedalken Shackles. I cannot describe how many times this card has stopped all sorts of nonsense from happening because people don't want to cast a creature into an open shackles. I find that most of the creatures that I'm concerned with have power 3 or less, so Shackles ALWAYS has something to steal. Further, it only gets better as the game progresses and has additional synergy with Academy Ruins should someone blow it up. And it's great tempo to steal someone's dude to block another dude swinging at you. That will teach them right to mess with Dragons...
I assume you're already running Evacuation. Have you considered Mizzium Mortars? It has the flexibility to be pinpoint removal early on in the game against pesky creature based combo decks and can be overloaded as a pretty effective boardsweeper in the late game. I used to run it in my Kaalia list, before I gave it to my brother so he could have a deck to play in our cutthroat meta, and that card is just fantastic. Kills Animar, Damia, Azami, Krenko, Anafenza, Gaddock Teeg, the list goes on. I would highly recommend it.
By the by, your custom cards are pretty cool.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm surprised that Dack Fayden doesn't seem like a consideration. He's a faithless looting every turn, plus you get to steal your opponents sol rings ;D
UR Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
WUR Narset's Coinflip Casino
Modern
UB Mill
I dig your logic with Alhammarret's Archive. I think that one's a done deal.
Vedalken Shackles - I really tend to lean toward instant and sorcery based removal since they work so well with my recursion cards. I also prefer sweepers since they are more efficient and non-targeted. Cyclonic Rift is the epitome of what I'm looking for in a removal spell, at least for this deck. It's so good I'm surprised it hasn't been banned yet. *knocks on wood* For those reasons Propaganda is probably not worth considering either.
I want to like Mizzium Mortars, but again, next to Cyclonic Rift it's lackluster at that mana cost. Blasphemous Act or Devastation Tide will almost always be better because of the efficiency - even though the reduced costs are not guaranteed.
Dack Fayden is worth a try. The artifact theft is actually worth 1UR. I have a prejudice against planeswalkers as you may have noticed, sometimes unfounded, other times absolutely justified. I don't like them for a lot of reasons. They don't work well with my tutor and recursion cards.
Ok, here's some tentative swaps:
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I'm reconsidering Archaeomancer and Venser, Shaper Savant. I still really like the interaction they have with Evacuation and Riptide Laboratory. Need to do more testing. I will be entering into some commander tourneys soon so I will get the opportunities I need to hone this deck.
Thanks again for all your support and suggestions!
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
The more I play, the more I find myself favoring late game control than the early game win. I find casting the removal and control spells more enjoyable than the cheaty game winners like Show and Tell and Curiosity. This is largely due to the multiplayer environment where diplomacy often wins more games than your turn 2 or 3 infinite combo.
This is because 1. As much as I enjoy winning ultra early from time to time, other people do not enjoy losing to these kind of wins.
2. when people are aware that my library contains infinite combos and other very degenerate synergies they are much more likely to try to hate me out of the game early. The game becomes for me, "win super early or die horribly"
3. I get a kick out of stopping someone else's "unstoppable" deck A LOT. There's nothing like casting a turn 1 Mindbreak Trap or Force of Will to stop someone from comboing out. Some hyper competitive builds just don't recover from that.
4. The longer control oriented game seems to be the safer and more competitive route to take anyway because I often find myself scarce a counter or a removal spell when I need it most. As long as I control the board, I control the game - it doesn't matter how late I win. I actually enjoy watching other decks play out and do their thing a bit before destroying them
With that said the following cards are inching their way to the chopping block:
Curiosity - It's a dead card without Niv in play. I hate that. And let's face it, nobody likes to see this card. It feels like a hollow win when I can pull it off. Often, i find myself cycling it away. I would almost always rather have a counter in my hand.
Show and Tell - It's obvious that Omniscience is the best thing to put down with this, and I can tutor for it pretty early with Long-Term Plans but it's an ugly play. While Show and Tell can be fun for other players and occasionally backfires in interesting ways - it's ultimately very much a win-early kind of card that draws hate.
Enter the Infinite - This is a stupid card. I wish this had never been printed. It's bad to have in my opening hand but well worth it if I can cast it for free later on. I despise cards that say "I win" so blatantly without intelligence, planning, or synergy behind it. Bad card design.
Dream Halls or Omniscience - out of these two, Omniscience would likely come out first because 1. Its cost is horrendous and 2. It's just as stupid as Enter the Infinite, and by that I mean it takes no intelligence to play effectively. Dream Halls at least makes the game more interesting for everyone at the table.
Temporal Manipulation, Time Warp, Temporal Mastery - I'm actually considering swapping these for control. The extra turn cards fit in more with the win early strategy and they cost more than I'd like. I get tired of seeing people roll their eyes at these cards.
What would I slot in? Well, I've been thinking I need to maindeck some artifact hate. Once again blue offers us superior options in Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild. Non-targeted and they ignore indestructibility. I can also tutor for them with Merchant Scroll. Each of these has significant perks. Hurkyl's Recall is much more flexible mainly in that I don't have to bounce my own stuff if I don't want to (sometimes I'd want to with stuff like Mana Vault and Sol Ring or even Alhammaret's Archive.) The cycling ability on Rebuild is just fantastic and sometimes the global effect is preferable.
I want to bring in at least 2 or 3 new counterspells. Flusterstorm is definitely on my radar. As is Swan Song, Forbid, Foil, Arcane Denial, Negate Misdirection, Counterflux, and Venser, Shaper Savant.
Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast are hilarious and awesome and I'd like to see them maindecked.
Leyline of Anticipation of course is perpetually on my maybe list. Day's Undoing gave me a little more motivation to run it. I know it's not a 3 mana Time Stop but it's still an instant speed Timetwister. It fits in well with my new late game control strategy.
What do you think?
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I think the general trend of moving towards more of a mid-range control is a good idea. My Tasigur deck and my Memnarch decks, my most competitive decks by far, have switched to mid-game control and it's been very effective for me. The way I built my decks is that they can take advantage of early game plays while still not sacrificing the late game control. I recommend keeping fast mana sources so that if you want to, so you can blow out your opponents with ridiculous late game plays in the early game, and making some of the cuts you've contemplated.
My top recommendation for you is to add an Azami package. The synergy with your general is obvious, lends very well to a long game control strategy, and overall can deflect some aggro your way by throwing some bodies for you to take advantage of. For ideas, check out my Memnarch Primer. I like what I play a lot. My wife doth call to me... I'll catch up with you later.
EDIT: Now that my wife's request is satisfied, I can finish my response. I think that including Enter the Infinite and Omniscience would be fun and can give you an I-Win button in the late game when you're finished letting people play their decks. I think that cutting the time spells is pretty reasonable. I would keep maybe Time Warp for flavor and because it's really quite good as a ramp piece.
Please, please, please reconsider Vedalken Shackles. I forgot that it was a card and now it's one of the cards I search for most frequently with Fabricate and Tezzeret the Seeker, sometimes even over Sol Ring. The ability to steal dudes indefinitely is really nice, it has great synergy with Academy Ruins and is just a great card overall. I forgot that it existed when I first started playing mono-Blue, and it's been a great addition. If you're looking for a more long-game control route, this is a card I cannot recommend strongly enough. As long as you have 4 Islands, you basically control every relevant creature or can threaten to do so.
I really like Venser, Shaper Savant, Arcane Denial, and Counterflux. Counterflux is nice because it's CMC 3 and has the ability to stop Storm combo decks in their tracks. Perhaps revamping your list to take advantage of Deadeye Navigator and Archaeomancer will also give you the late game control aspects you seem to enjoy.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Regardless, I'm very excited to see what you do with your more controlly Niv-Mizzet deck Rowan. Thanks for making this the best primer on this site.
I don't feel that Vedalken Shackles is optimal for the deck. As is, I've only got 6 islands. In mono blue, I'd absolutely use it but here I'm skeptical.
WumpaWolfy My paper deck is currently lacking Show and Tell, Snapcaster Mage, Intuition, Personal Tutor, Omniscience, Force of Will, Diamond Mox, Grim Monolith, all the fetchlands... basically everything over $20 a pop. I don't really believe in proxies. I typically buy maybe one high dollar card a month. I've got 2 other decks, so the upgrade process is slow due to budget concerns (a guy can't eat magic cards). I recently bought a Temporal Mastery and a Cryptic Command for Niv.
Glokks One of things I really don't like about Omniscience and Enter the Infinite is how terrible they are to have in my opening hand due to their cost and exclusively late game value. I'd rather have an answer.
Jester's Cap effects is something that the mid range control version of the deck could probably benefit from. Extract doesn't hit has hard as Jester's Cap but is much more efficient. Consider that Cap takes 6 to use. by the time I have that much mana available the game might already be over.
Not sure if I like Wash Out or Devastation Tide more. What do you think? I'm a huge fan of selective board wipes at efficient costs. Tide is more of a hard reset and therefore a bit more reliable in dire situations.
I'm still on the fence with Mindmoil. I like how it's just an old fashioned win condition with the possibility of going infinite. If Inner Fire/Comet Storm is not available, it's nice to know I have a solid backup. However, my previous arguments against it remain.
Helm of Awakening is most likely coming out. I honestly don't really need it for the Top/Future Sight combo. "1: Draw a card." is already really good. The benefit the helm gives to my opponents isn't worth it IMO. It's laughable alongside Rhystic Study. I think Gilded Lotus is going to come back in this spot.
I'm a bit undecided on whether to swap out Tolarian Winds or Reforge the Soul. I think I need to keep at least one so that I can reliably fill my graveyard with recursion options. (Imagine dumping 10+ cards into your yard only to overload Mizzix's Mastery a turn later!)
This next batch of swaps is going to require a complete overhaul of the primer. I'm a lazy dragon and that's a daunting task, but here's updated swaps list for starters. What do you think?
What I still want to find room for: Leyline of Anticipation, Day's Undoing, Memory Jar, Devastation Tide.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
You play Leyline over Orrery because of the chance of starting with it for free. That can win games. Otherwise, a deck like this doesn't need to play it that badly late game and tutoring Orrery is usually sub-optimal.
Just some quick thoughts:
-I like playing both Thought Reflection and Archive. But if you really only want one, Archive is the way to go.
-Counterflux is a top 5 counter in Izzet. Drain, Force, Swan Song, Trap, Flux
-Reforge the Soul is good, I'd try to find a way to put it back in while keeping Tezzy.
-If you really want to move away from quick wins and be more late game control, Mindmoil should stay in.
-I don't like Jar or Mind's Eye in anything blue.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Mindmoil will probably stay in because it gives me some resiliency to my opponents' combo-control strategies.
I'm on the fence with Jar and Eye. Eye is vastly inferior to Rhystic Study or Consecrated Sphinx but it still works. I don't think it's really much better than Reforge the Soul, and certainly not better than the Future Sight/Top combo.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I find that with the mid range control build I'm casting Niv a bit more often and whittling away at people. And he's actually a pretty nice removal engine if you can get him to stick. If you want to commit to that route you could add Lightning Greaves and Basilisk Collar or even Clout of the Dominus. But my real answer is that I would still never use another commander for this deck. I love the way that Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind flawlessly represents what this deck does. And Mindmoil is honestly a pretty solid win con with Niv. If I can't get Niv to stick, there's always Inner Fire/Comet Storm.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius is worth some consideration though because he's better in a vacuum, i.e. if you have an empty hand. I would likely keep Dracogenius in my "sideboard" to use if I felt like it. He "draws" less hate because he's harder to combo with.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
What about Diviner's Wand?
It's free to put on Niv when he etb and then as soon as you draw cards you are suddenly direct damaging people and swinging for commander lethal.